Rogue Cleric, can it work?

[ReD_Exorcist]

So recently my friend has been playing a Lesser Assimar cleric in our party, and well lets say hes not enjoying it. The main reason why is because when he compares himself to my Druid, the Dread Cleric, and Warlock. He doesn't see himself as useful. I told him already that he needs too look through his spell list more, he obviously has the most potential to be the strongest in my opinion.

Hes convinced though that he should switch his character into a rogue multiclassing cleric. Hes looked through a list of domains our DM gave him, and he ended finding this domain that lets you make a voodoo doll with a piece of someones DNA. The whole point of the doll is to be able to make touch spells on the doll instead of the actual person. So hes convinced that he should take that domain along with Shadow or some kind of stealth domain.

Now for my question
Can a rogue cleric work? and what feats & spells should he be preparing, so he doesn't feel like hes useless again.
Just a little bit more intro to our party for you guys, we have me as a druid who's been mainly casting and has an Owlbear as a companion (Don't ask) Then you have our dread cleric who has been summoning skeletons left and right. Then we also have our warlock who is ranged based and dishes out sweet sweet damage. Me and my companion tank the front lines usually. One last thing, our campaign is kind of us helping our dread cleric start a rebellion for his country.

Knowing how helpful the Playgrounders can be, I came to you guys first. I know the DM should be helping him, but the DM kind of dislikes him a little so yeah I feel like I should help out the poor guy with his build, and he did come to me and ask for help.

One thing I should mention since it is very important to our party, We are playing a Evil Campaign.

[Hal0Badger]

You may check Shadowbane Stalker PRC, which increases cleric casting and sneak attack, and can be qualified via rogue-cleric multiclass.

Aside from that, if it works or not, largely depends on your game style, or to be more precise, your optimization level.

[Troacctid]

If Dragon Magazine material is allowed, you can use the Sacred Outlaw feat, which is expressly designed to facilitate this build and does the job quite well.

Other than that, the Shadowbane Stalker prestige class is a reasonable option for a sneaky Cleric.

[Amphetryon]

Another Rogue/Cleric PrC option is Temple Raider of Olidammara, which seems designed to come ready-made with a fedora and a bullwhip. *ahem*

The concept is potentially valid, to be sure, if tricky to pull off efficiently. Multiple-Attribute Dependency can be a real problem here, as the Rogue and Cleric need almost none of the same default stats, barring the Archer Cleric archetype. Feats that reduce MAD and/or Spells that obviate some Rogue Skills in order to reduce dependency on low-priority Attribute Skills are at a premium.

[Ianuagonde]

My first thought was sneak attacking with Inflict spells. The touch attack is a lot easier to make than a regular attack. With two tankers and a summoned skeletons, it sounds like flanking isn't that hard to achieve.

[OldTrees1]

Now for my question
Can a rogue cleric work? and what feats & spells should he be preparing, so he doesn't feel like hes useless again.
Yes, a Rogue/Cleric can work. Your primary class would be a Cloistered Cleric(6+Int skill/level) and you would add occasional levels of Rogue. It will feel mostly like a Rogue with some minor spellcasting. Whether it addresses your friend's problem is another question.

Although an intelligent Cloistered Cleric of the Kobold and Trickery domains can feel like a Rogue/Cleric despite only have cleric levels.



So recently my friend has been playing a Lesser Assimar cleric in our party, and well lets say hes not enjoying it. The main reason why is because when he compares himself to my Druid, the Dread Cleric, and Warlock. He doesn't see himself as useful. I told him already that he needs too look through his spell list more, he obviously has the most potential to be the strongest in my opinion.

-snip-
Just a little bit more intro to our party for you guys, we have me as a druid who's been mainly casting and has an Owlbear as a companion (Don't ask) Then you have our dread cleric who has been summoning skeletons left and right. Then we also have our warlock who is ranged based and dishes out sweet sweet damage. Me and my companion tank the front lines usually. One last thing, our campaign is kind of us helping our dread cleric start a rebellion for his country.

Well, here is some good information about your group. However why did he not see himself as useful relative to other members of the group(your Druid) and why was Rogue what came to mind?

Was it combat strength that he felt lacking in? Rogue / Cleric would preform even worse at that.
Was it out of combat utility? Rogue levels can quickly add a skill or skills to one's repertoire.

[Faily]

Could possibly ask the GM for the possibility of changing the requirements of Arcane Trickster to allow for Divine magic too, and you could fluff it as Divine Trickster? I did something similar some time ago with a Cleric of deception.

[ReD_Exorcist]

However why did he not see himself as useful relative to other members of the group(your Druid) and why was Rogue what came to mind?

Was it combat strength that he felt lacking in? Rogue / Cleric would preform even worse at that.
Was it out of combat utility? Rogue levels can quickly add a skill or skills to one's repertoire.

In combat he hasn't been using his spell right, hes been summoning a lot, which I think is fine, as long as you take the feats to be a good summoner. He's convinced though that he should be doing more for the party, and in some ways he should be. It just a matter of him not reading his spells and learning how to be a good cleric. He is convinced that switching to a rogue/cleric will dish him out more damage and make him more useful out of combat as well.

I've told him countless of times to read his spells and heyll be able to dish out a lot more, but he refuses too out of sheer laziness. Now I know its bad player habits to do that and what not, but I have no control over him. His sister plays in our party who is the warlock, so we have to play nice with him, and I rather not have him kicked either since we have known each other for a while now.

[OldTrees1]

In combat he hasn't been using his spell right, hes been summoning a lot, which I think is fine, as long as you take the feats to be a good summoner. He's convinced though that he should be doing more for the party, and in some ways he should be. It just a matter of him not reading his spells and learning how to be a good cleric. He is convinced that switching to a rogue/cleric will dish him out more damage and make him more useful out of combat as well.

I've told him countless of times to read his spells and heyll be able to dish out a lot more, but he refuses too out of sheer laziness. Now I know its bad player habits to do that and what not, but I have no control over him. His sister plays in our party who is the warlock, so we have to play nice with him, and I rather not have him kicked either since we have known each other for a while now.

Hm. Well if he switches he will be doing less damage and have weaker spells. However he will have more skills(so as long as your DM supports skills that will increase the out of combat use). All in all it seems a bad move for your friend.

On the other hand, he seems like someone that dislikes casting but is in a group that optimizes to the power level that casting is required. Swordsage might be worth a gander but most options at your group's chosen power level require reading spell descriptions.

[KillingAScarab]

Could possibly ask the GM for the possibility of changing the requirements of Arcane Trickster to allow for Divine magic too, and you could fluff it as Divine Trickster? I did something similar some time ago with a Cleric of deception.I think shadowbane stalker is the better route, but before/near its time of publication in Complete Adventurer, I found this article (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book043.html) about using bard and assassin in place of rogue levels to qualify for arcane trickster, which is then used to improve your cleric spellcasting. It can be done in a core rules only game without any change to prerequisites. You would be limited to an evil alignment character unless you can use web material and substitute assassin with the avenger prestige class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) (then you're any non-chaotic).

[Inevitability]

Consider the Necromancer domain for Vampiric Touch. It stacks with sneak attack, allowing you to heal large amounts of damage with a single spell.

[Aleolus]

There's also a PrC in the Miniatures Handbook that works for a Rogue/Cleric, though it is more for a rogue with a level or two of Cleric, since it doesn't progress Cleric casting

[Droopy McCool]

I thought I remembered something like this before. Strip #605 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0605.html), panels 1 & 2. :smallbiggrin:

McCool

[Snowbluff]

If Dragon Magazine material is allowed, you can use the Sacred Outlaw feat, which is expressly designed to facilitate this build and does the job quite well.

This combined with Domains that give new skills, the Cloistered Cleric from before, and some persistent Divine Power would make a strong build.

Could possibly ask the GM for the possibility of changing the requirements of Arcane Trickster to allow for Divine magic too, and you could fluff it as Divine Trickster? I did something similar some time ago with a Cleric of deception.

No, Unseen Seer is a million times better. Arcane Trickster is bad. Ask for Unseen Seer. Fluff fits better, too. :smallwink:

[Inevitability]

There's also a PrC in the Miniatures Handbook that works for a Rogue/Cleric, though it is more for a rogue with a level or two of Cleric, since it doesn't progress Cleric casting

Skullclan Hunter, right? It's pretty neat, though very focused on fighting undead. Check with your DM before taking levels in it.

[ReD_Exorcist]

Hm. Well if he switches he will be doing less damage and have weaker spells. However he will have more skills(so as long as your DM supports skills that will increase the out of combat use). All in all it seems a bad move for your friend.

On the other hand, he seems like someone that dislikes casting but is in a group that optimizes to the power level that casting is required. Swordsage might be worth a gander but most options at your group's chosen power level require reading spell descriptions.

I understand that he will be doing less damage, so if cleric/rogue does that to him, I will have to convince him that he should rethink it. You mentioned the Swordsage, I know the Warblade is moderately easy to play and dishes out a ton of damage (I've played one myself :smallbiggrin: )

Can the Swordsage keep up with the damage output, and is it less read heavy then the Cleric? From my experiences with the Warblade, I didn't have to hard of a time with reading through its material since honestly it wasn't a whole lot of it.

[ReD_Exorcist]

One thing I should mention since it is very important to our party, We are playing a Evil Campaign. Spare me the warnings of how that's not a good idea, so far its been swell. The party is both fighting and role play heavy so we got to know each others characters really well before hand.

[OldTrees1]

I understand that he will be doing less damage, so if cleric/rogue does that to him, I will have to convince him that he should rethink it. You mentioned the Swordsage, I know the Warblade is moderately easy to play and dishes out a ton of damage (I've played one myself :smallbiggrin: )

Can the Swordsage keep up with the damage output, and is it less read heavy then the Cleric? From my experiences with the Warblade, I didn't have to hard of a time with reading through its material since honestly it wasn't a whole lot of it.

All of the initiators are less read heavy than the Cleric and can dish out similar damage. Swordsage gets more skill points which will help make him feel useful out of combat (although Hunter's Scent, Mountain Hammer, and Cloak of Deception are quite useful too).

[Bavarian itP]

Could possibly ask the GM for the possibility of changing the requirements of Arcane Trickster to allow for Divine magic too, and you could fluff it as Divine Trickster? I did something similar some time ago with a Cleric of deception.

Divine Trickster? It's been done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?172910-Articles-Previously-Appearing-on-GiantITP-com), by Mr Burlew himself :smallsmile:

[ATHATH]

One thing I should mention since it is very important to our party, We are playing a Evil Campaign. Spare me the warnings of how that's not a good idea, so far its been swell. The party is both fighting and role play heavy so we got to know each others characters really well before hand.
What are the personalities of each of the characters?

He Who Shall Not Be Named Three Times Unless You Want to Summon Him might be able to help your players flesh out their characters even more. It couldn't hurt to try, could it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I understand that he will be doing less damage, so if cleric/rogue does that to him, I will have to convince him that he should rethink it. You mentioned the Swordsage, I know the Warblade is moderately easy to play and dishes out a ton of damage (I've played one myself :smallbiggrin: )

Can the Swordsage keep up with the damage output, and is it less read heavy then the Cleric? From my experiences with the Warblade, I didn't have to hard of a time with reading through its material since honestly it wasn't a whole lot of it.

I'd be a little hesitant to suggest an initiator. If looking through the spell list is too much trouble, giving him another one (I know, I know, but it's a fair comparison here) probably won't help. If you insist on going initiator, might I suggest crusader into ruby knight vindicator.

Sticking to the shadowbane inquisitor route might be for the best though.

As for the particular problem of spell selection, why not point him at one of the handbooks? They almost universally cover the most broadly useful spells on the cleric list and being given these on a silver platter should help to narrow down the absolute glut of options that might be why he's so hesitant to look through the -whole- list.

[OldTrees1]

I'd be a little hesitant to suggest an initiator. If looking through the spell list is too much trouble, giving him another one (I know, I know, but it's a fair comparison here) probably won't help. If you insist on going initiator, might I suggest crusader into ruby knight vindicator.

Sticking to the shadowbane inquisitor route might be for the best though.

As for the particular problem of spell selection, why not point him at one of the handbooks? They almost universally cover the most broadly useful spells on the cleric list and being given these on a silver platter should help to narrow down the absolute glut of options that might be why he's so hesitant to look through the -whole- list.

The player in question is frustrated with their ability to contribute to the party as a straight Cleric (relative to the Druid + Owlbear). Would you elaborate on how you see shadowbane inquisitor being beneficial?

[Troacctid]

Well the nice thing about initiators is that even though they have a long list of abilities to pick through, all of those abilities tend to do basically the same thing: make a melee attack and add extra damage and/or a special rider. This is especially true for Crusaders, which are almost all strikes without many boosts or counters AND have their maneuvers essentially selected for them. So even though you have a lot of choices, all of them are good ones and you can't really go wrong.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The player in question is frustrated with their ability to contribute to the party as a straight Cleric (relative to the Druid + Owlbear). Would you elaborate on how you see shadowbane inquisitor being beneficial?

It's a simple matter. If he can't be effective as a cleric, he probably can't be effective, period. Sorry if that sounds harsh but it is what it is. Running with simple, "works on the conditions you expect them to" abilities will -feel- like he's doing something, even if that something is far less effective than what he could be doing as a straight cleric.

You can't force somebody to learn but you can give them something to do that makes them feel better.

[eggynack]

As for the particular problem of spell selection, why not point him at one of the handbooks? They almost universally cover the most broadly useful spells on the cleric list and being given these on a silver platter should help to narrow down the absolute glut of options that might be why he's so hesitant to look through the -whole- list.
Isn't the only handbook that one that just has that unadorned list of spells? Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen it as particularly useful. I guess it does indeed cut down the list, but it does so in a rather annoying way.

Anyway, main topic, one plausible option is to just have him be a cleric. But, like, a roguish cleric. Y'know, point out the roguish domains, and the roguish spells, and have him rogue it up in that fashion. I suspect that he'd feel better about his doings if he had a narrower focus, cause it'd mean that he's definitely doing something of value for the party, and it might even help him with the spell selection problem. After all, the problem of, "Pick good spells," is way more daunting than, "Pick good stealthy sneaky spells, and here's a list you can start with, including some domains that naturally back up the plan." I'll also second RKV. It's one of the more potent assassin oriented cleric PrC's out there.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Isn't the only handbook that one that just has that unadorned list of spells? Maybe it's just me, but I've never seen it as particularly useful. I guess it does indeed cut down the list, but it does so in a rather annoying way.

Here's three.

This one links directly to the spells http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.msg8434#msg8434

This one too http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?374604-The-Devout-and-the-Dead-a-guide-to-Clerics&p=18189677#post18189685

The spells are in the second post, second to last spoiler http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450575-The-Cleric-Handbook

Whoops.

[eggynack]

I've only seen the gameologists one, though the second giantitp handbook mostly fits my description too. Second handbook you linked seems pretty good though.

[Troacctid]

Well sure, that second one has a very nice guide to spell selection, but it's for 5e, so it's not terribly useful here.

[eggynack]

Oh. Yeah. Well, then, basically no good cleric spell guides. The actual giantitp 3.5 cleric guide isn't completely absent of other text, but it's close enough to that for it to mean the same thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well sure, that second one has a very nice guide to spell selection, but it's for 5e, so it's not terribly useful here.

Whoops. I've long since memorized the good ones. Haven't looked at a handbook in ages. Those were just a bit of goole-fu and I didn't look that closely.