Tell me if theres something wrong with my plan (planar binding)

[magicalmagicman]

1. Greater Planar Binding (with malconvoker class features) a Balor. Reason for a balor? Unlike all the other high-end outsiders, Balors have absolutely pathetic defenses! No regeneration, no healing of any kind, etc. All it has is an unholy aura, which is basically just a protection from x, except it doesn't block cysts!

2. Cast assay resistance and enervation until it has 1-4 hd left.

3. Pelt it with nonlethal substitution orb of fire until its nice and unconscious. The "fire" part doesn't matter because the metamagic makes it nonlethal type, as in, it bypasses the balor's immunities and resistances.

4. Break the circle if your DM rules that magic circle protects the trapped creature, and then spam assay resistance + heightened necrotic cysts until you succeed.

5. Cast necrotic tumor until you succeed. Congratulations! You are now a proud owner of a balor!

6. Give the balor a plethora of dispel magic protection.

note:I think this will work on pit fiends too!

Cysts are so awesome! They bypass almost every single anti-enchantment thing in existence! Because they're necromancy not enchantment, and has no compulsion or mind-affecting descriptor.

[Âmesang]

Interestingly, the Epic Level Handbook describes a plan much akin to this on one of its chapter beginning pages. :smalltongue:

"How to summon and defeat a Balor, diffusing its wealth to raise one's station and increase your holdings."

…although isn't there a chance it could just vorpal its own head off to initiate its death throes?

[magicalmagicman]

…although isn't there a chance it could just vorpal its own head off to initiate its death throes?

In fiendish codex I, it clearly states that death for a demon results in demotions, or permanent death (1/20 i think). I don't think a balor will risk it even when hes being enervated.

[Jeff the Green]

In fiendish codex I, it clearly states that death for a demon results in demotions, or permanent death (1/20 i think). I don't think a balor will risk it even when hes being enervated.

Permanent death is only if it's killed in the Abyss, but it is likely to be demoted. The caveat is that a demon lord can spare them, and might if they sacrificed themselves to spite someone who summoned them and was going to use them against the lord's interests.

[magicalmagicman]

Permanent death is only if it's killed in the Abyss, but it is likely to be demoted. The caveat is that a demon lord can spare them, and might if they sacrificed themselves to spite someone who summoned them and was going to use them against the lord's interests.

Ah, I misread one of the death throes. My bad.

[AvatarVecna]

Permanent death is only if it's killed in the Abyss, but it is likely to be demoted. The caveat is that a demon lord can spare them, and might if they sacrificed themselves to spite someone who summoned them and was going to use them against the lord's interests.

This is...quite an amusing tactic, one I hadn't considered before. I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I'm playing a demon with a Vorpal weapon...admittedly, that doesn't happen often, but still!

It'll also be good for when my players try this cute little "summon a Balor" trick themselves.

[Jeff the Green]

This is...quite an amusing tactic, one I hadn't considered before. I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I'm playing a demon with a Vorpal weapon...admittedly, that doesn't happen often, but still!

It'll also be good for when my players try this cute little "summon a Balor" trick themselves.

Really, anyone should be able to coup de grace themselves (and deliberately fail the save) if they have a suitable weapon, and most demons have claws.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Permanent death is only if it's killed in the Abyss, but it is likely to be demoted. The caveat is that a demon lord can spare them, and might if they sacrificed themselves to spite someone who summoned them and was going to use them against the lord's interests.

That's 1e and 2e. Third edition and on, anything that is brought to the material plane by means of a calling spell is permanently dead if killed. The planar binding line of spells are callings.


Calling
A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

<SNIP>

Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells


So the balor is not going to kill itself in order to escape the trap. However, there are a few things that it or the DM might do in this case:

A. Does you attacking the balor with your orbs of fire break the diagram? The wording in magic circle vs evil is a little vague about forces or items crossing above the diagram though it is quite clear that anything that were to land on the diagram--even a straw--would break all of the magic circle protections. As a DM, I would be tempted to rule that casting spells across the diagram breaks it.

B. There is another important distinction between calling and summoning. The summon abilities of a called creature work just fine. And the magic circle trap only works on called creatures and even then, it only works if you call them within 1 round of summoning it.


When focused inward, the spell binds a nongood called creature (such as those called by the lesser planar binding, planar binding, and greater planar binding spells) for a maximum of 24 hours per caster level, provided that you cast the spell that calls the creature within 1 round of casting the magic circle.

So, the balor can use its summon ability to summon another balor or other minions (marilith, nalfeshnee, glazebru, 1d4 hezrous, etc)--as long as the summon doesn't target an area outside the circle, it is fine. The summoned minion is not going to be caught by the magic circle trap even though it is inside the circle because: A. it is summoned, not called, and B. even if it were called, the spell that brought it to the plane was not cast within 1 round of casting the magic circle. Therefore, the summoned minion is able to break the circle/diagram and free the trapped Balor.

[Jeff the Green]

That's 1e and 2e. Third edition and on, anything that is brought to the material plane by means of a calling spell is permanently dead if killed. The planar binding line of spells are callings.

See Fiendish Compendia I and II, pp. 9 and 18 respectively.

[magicalmagicman]

A. Does you attacking the balor with your orbs of fire break the diagram? The wording in magic circle vs evil is a little vague about forces or items crossing above the diagram though it is quite clear that anything that were to land on the diagram--even a straw--would break all of the magic circle protections. As a DM, I would be tempted to rule that casting spells across the diagram breaks it.

B. There is another important distinction between calling and summoning. The summon abilities of a called creature work just fine. And the magic circle trap only works on called creatures and even then, it only works if you call them within 1 round of summoning it.



So, the balor can use its summon ability to summon another balor or other minions (marilith, nalfeshnee, glazebru, 1d4 hezrous, etc)--as long as the summon doesn't target an area outside the circle, it is fine. The summoned minion is not going to be caught by the magic circle trap even though it is inside the circle because: A. it is summoned, not called, and B. even if it were called, the spell that brought it to the plane was not cast within 1 round of casting the magic circle. Therefore, the summoned minion is able to break the circle/diagram and free the trapped Balor.

This sounds like a DM's desperate attempt at fudging the rules to screw planar binding :/

By RAW the bound creature cannot directy or indirectly interefere with the circle.

Protection from Evil blocks summoned creatures from passing the barrier, and magic circle trap is like super mega ultra protection from evil.

Balor's summon is treated like a summon spell.

Your way of ruling just ain't RAW legal :/

[Elder_Basilisk]

This sounds like a DM's desperate attempt at fudging the rules to screw planar binding :/

By RAW the bound creature cannot directy or indirectly interefere with the circle.

Protection from Evil blocks summoned creatures from passing the barrier, and magic circle trap is like super mega ultra protection from evil.

Balor's summon is treated like a summon spell.

Your way of ruling just ain't RAW legal :/

Sure, it's a DM attempt to use the rules to screw planar binding, but IMO, it's totally legit because the scheme is a players's desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding.

RAW, magic circle vs. evil with diagram will not prevent the balor from summoning allies within the barrier. RAW, the magic circle vs evil diagram will not prevent the summoned creatures from interfering with the diagram. (Note that, RAW, the prevention of interfering with the diagram is specific to the trapped creature which has to be called and has to be called right after the magic circle is cast, so even if the Balor's summoned demons could not cross the line of the magic circle (and RAW does not state that the trap version of the spell retains the ability to hedge out such creatures), RAW does not do anything to prevent the summoned creatures from interfering with the diagram from inside. That prohibition is specific to the original called creature. They certainly won't prevent the summoned creatures from teleporting out of the magic circle and and interfering with the diagram. RAW, your scheme is much more risky than you think it is.

Now this possibility does screw planar binding in general because any outsider capable of summoning creatures who can teleport can have them break the barrier. So, if I were the DM or player, I would prefer what I think is a RAI solution: the player is protected as intended as long as he bargains with the demon, but if he starts making attacks, the protection is broken and it's game on.

[magicalmagicman]

Sure, it's a DM attempt to use the rules to screw planar binding, but IMO, it's totally legit because the scheme is a players's desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding.

RAW, magic circle vs. evil with diagram will not prevent the balor from summoning allies within the barrier. RAW, the magic circle vs evil diagram will not prevent the summoned creatures from interfering with the diagram. (Note that, RAW, the prevention of interfering with the diagram is specific to the trapped creature which has to be called and has to be called right after the magic circle is cast, so even if the Balor's summoned demons could not cross the line of the magic circle (and RAW does not state that the trap version of the spell retains the ability to hedge out such creatures), RAW does not do anything to prevent the summoned creatures from interfering with the diagram from inside. That prohibition is specific to the original called creature. They certainly won't prevent the summoned creatures from teleporting out of the magic circle and and interfering with the diagram. RAW, your scheme is much more risky than you think it is.

Now this possibility does screw planar binding in general because any outsider capable of summoning creatures who can teleport can have them break the barrier. So, if I were the DM or player, I would prefer what I think is a RAI solution: the player is protected as intended as long as he bargains with the demon, but if he starts making attacks, the protection is broken and it's game on.

RAI I understand, some DMs think planar binding is extortion, others think its a planar ally dupe. RAW however, no... "The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly" and him summoning creatures that disturb the diagram is him interfering with the circle indirectly. So as a matter of fact, the summoned creatures cannot free the bound creature in anyway possible. Even if the summoned creature loses a limb and spills blood all over the circle and diagram, the called creature will still be bound, unless of course, the limb was chopped off by someone outside the circle.

However you do bring up a good point. It is slightly ambiguous whether the summoned creatures are contained in the circle or not. One argument is that summoned creatures are there due to his ongoing magic effect, therefore those summoned creatures are the bound creature's abilities, and therefore cannot cross the circle. The other argument is that the summoned creatures don't qualify as part of the creature's ability, and although they cannot disturb the circle, they can leave the circle and murderer the caller.

If I was a DM though, because so many RAW texts state that summoned creatures are part of the summoner's CR, various magical dispelable, protection, and mind control rules of summons, I'd rule that summoned creatures are still part of the creature's ongoing spell effect and therefore is blocked by the circle.

[dascarletm]

RAW however, no... "The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly" and him summoning creatures that disturb the diagram is him interfering with the circle indirectly. So as a matter of fact, the summoned creatures cannot free the bound creature in anyway possible. Even if the summoned creature loses a limb and spills blood all over the circle and diagram, the called creature will still be bound, unless of course, the limb was chopped off by someone outside the circle.

If this is the pit fiend instead of the balor, I assume any devil worthy of that rank will find a loophole somewhere.

[Elder_Basilisk]

RAI I understand, some DMs think planar binding is extortion, others think its a planar ally dupe. RAW however, no... "The creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly" and him summoning creatures that disturb the diagram is him interfering with the circle indirectly. So as a matter of fact, the summoned creatures cannot free the bound creature in anyway possible. Even if the summoned creature loses a limb and spills blood all over the circle and diagram, the called creature will still be bound, unless of course, the limb was chopped off by someone outside the circle.

However you do bring up a good point. It is slightly ambiguous whether the summoned creatures are contained in the circle or not. One argument is that summoned creatures are there due to his ongoing magic effect, therefore those summoned creatures are the bound creature's abilities, and therefore cannot cross the circle. The other argument is that the summoned creatures don't qualify as part of the creature's ability, and although they cannot disturb the circle, they can leave the circle and murderer the caller.

If I was a DM though, because so many RAW texts state that summoned creatures are part of the summoner's CR, various magical dispelable, protection, and mind control rules of summons, I'd rule that summoned creatures are still part of the creature's ongoing spell effect and therefore is blocked by the circle.

I think you are conflating two parts of the spell description. The magic circle vs evil spell has the normal outward facing circle, then a separate set of rules for the inward facing circle (trap) version of the spell. Then there is another set of subrules for the inward facing circle with a diagram.

The basic inward facing circle text is where the "directly or indirectly" phrase comes from. The next phrase is, "but other creatures can." It goes on to say that, "The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can. The creature can attack any target it can reach with its ranged attacks except for the circle itself."

When the diagram is added, it gains the following abilities/restrictions:
"A successful diagram allows you to cast a dimensional anchor spell on the magic circle during the round before casting any summoning spell. The anchor holds any called creatures in the magic circle for 24 hours per caster level. A creature cannot use its spell resistance against a magic circle prepared with a diagram, and none of its abilities or attacks can cross the diagram. If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5. The creature is immediately released if anything disturbs the diagram—even a straw laid across it. However, the creature itself cannot disturb the diagram either directly or indirectly, as noted above."

Its abilities and attacks can no longer cross the diagram and it cannot disturb the diagram directly or indirectly though other creatures can and presumably it can induce or startle other creatures into doing so by either promising them rewards or surprising/bluffing/startling them at an inopportune moment (which is why wizards don't let clumsy or greedy apprentices near the circles).

One question is whether summoned creatures count as the balor or his abilities. Now, the rest of the rules seem to treat summoned creatures as separate from the summoner. If my cleric casts summon monster while on the astral plane and a githyanki casts dismissal, the monster may vanish but the cleric does not have to make a will save. Targeting the monster is not targeting the cleric. On the other hand, invisibility uses summoning monsters as an example of attacking indirectly and states that it does not break the spell. The rules are ambiguous here, but even resolving question in the wizard's favor does not leave the summoned balor helpless.

Earlier in the description, it distinguishes between the creature crossing the barrier physically and by teleportation/etc.
The summon ability specifically disallows the immediate use of the newcomer's summon ability but does not disallow teleportation. Since the newly summoned creature would not meet the requirements to be bound with a dimensional anchor, presumably it is able to teleport even if it cannot cross the barrier physically (though there could be other means of preventing teleportation in play--a hallow with dimensional anchor tied to it, some kind of dimensional lock spell, etc).


A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.

Now if we are assuming that the summoned balor cannot cross the circle or disturb it (because that would be the original balor doing so indirectly), it can still teleport across it. Once there, it has options. It could simply kill the summoning wizard thus resolving the problem until the original balor wears out the time limit and/or wins a charisma check. If we assume that it cannot directly effect the circle, it is still possible that it could bull rush the wizard, a mouse, the wizard's familiar or some other creature into it (under the "but other creatures can" line). It might or might not also be able to destroy a supporting pillar and cause the roof to collapse onto the circle (one assumes that "indirectly" is not an infinitely powerful word here because in all the source and derivative material, the demon can do things like bribe or attempt to startle an apprentice into breaking the circle for him--it's reasonable to think that once you reach two or three removes it no longer counts as "indirectly" breaking the circle). But the option to teleport out and kill the wizard or bribe/intimidate/obtain allies who can unambiguously break the circle seems to be sufficient to render the tactic higher risk than might otherwise be assumed.

[Elder_Basilisk]

RAI I understand, some DMs think planar binding is extortion, others think its a planar ally dupe.

For the record, I think it can be either depending on the wizard and what kind of creature he is calling (in some cases, it's likely to be both). But I don't think it's supposed to render the creature helpless to actual attacks, so if you want to do the threatening route for the whole payment rather than as a part of a carrot and stick approach ("serve me for a year and get these 100 nice soulstones, or refuse and I annihilate you... Oh, I see you're going to be trouble. Well, you can't try that charisma check again for another day and my offer has gone down to 75 soulstones") then I think you should actually have to break the circle in order to make good on the threat.

[Troacctid]

Sure, it's a DM attempt to use the rules to screw planar binding, but IMO, it's totally legit because the scheme is a players's desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding.
Is it, though? Is it really? Is using a spell for its express written purpose, under the assumption that it will do its job, so that you can use planar binding also for its express written purpose, is that really a "desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding"?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Is it, though? Is it really? Is using a spell for its express written purpose, under the assumption that it will do its job, so that you can use planar binding also for its express written purpose, is that really a "desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding"?

I wasn't aware that the express written purpose was to tie up a balor so that you can hit it with nonlethal orbs of fire until it is unconscious and then cast necrotic tumor on it till it fails its save and thus have an unlimited supply of dominated minions. Perhaps you can scan the part of the player's handbook where that's written down because my PHB seems to be missing that text.

[magicalmagicman]

Your dismissal example is wrong. If a cleric casts dominate monster on another creature, and someone used dispel magic to dispel the dominate monster, you're saying that because the dispel magic didn't dispel YOU from existence, that dominate monster spell is not your attack/ability. Summon spells are both a dominate and teleport spell combined into one.

The "cannot disturb the circle directly or indirectly" quote is from the special diagram rules of magic circle. I am not confusing the various parts of the spell description.

The most important fact here is that, it is your spell that keeps the summoned creature here, and once your spell ends, he returns. I don't think there is any ambiguity in the rules here. A monster summoned by a creature is part of that creature's magical abilities.

Whether summoned creatures can teleport out of the circle however, is an interesting point. You are absolutely correct that the circle only prevents the called creature from teleporting out of the circle.

Hmm... a summoned creature's physical body is part of the bound creature's magical power so its clear as day to me that they can't physically cross the barrier, but what about their spells and their teleport?

No diagram circle doesn't block ranged attacks and spells, but blocks all physical attacks (reach attacks).
Diagram blocks ranged attacks and spells, and prevents summoned creatures from crossing physically... but you're right, the circle descriptions target the called creature exclusively.

Yeah if I was DM I'd rule that summoned creatures can teleport out of the circle, and can use their spells across the circle.

edit: This would only mean that you just need to be strong enough to kill a balor to bind a balor. It still wouldnt stop me from pelting the guy with nonlethal orbs til it drops unconscious and then infest it with parasites. I actually like this. This makes it so that you can only bind those that are weaker than you.

edit2: Yeah, I'd first bind a bunch of lesser demons/devils using my method, then once I turn them into my thralls, slowly go up the ladder. Pit fiends seem much easier than balors now. Their strongest summon is a Cornugon v.s. a 2nd balor.

[Aquillion]

Sure, it's a DM attempt to use the rules to screw planar binding, but IMO, it's totally legit because the scheme is a players's desperate attempt to fudge the rules in order to abuse planar binding.But it's silly for a DM to resort to that. They're the DM, they can just say "no, that doesn't work. Balors are immune to cysts because reasons."

I mean, it's entirely reasonable that cysts would fail to work on things with unusual physiology, so if a DM wants to shut these shenanigans down, "no cysts on outsiders" would make total sense as a houserule. Or the DM can just say "Planar Binding doesn't exist in my game" and that's that.

Whereas "the Balor can just summon things to break the circle" is bad because it leaves the game in a state that doesn't make much sense -- why does the spell exist if it can be so trivially bypassed?

[AnachroNinja]

I seem to remember at some point reading that an outsider using his summon ability incurs a debt to the creature he summons for help and as such, tend to be very hesitant about doing so. Something about their immortal nature's meaning a debt can end up being a huge problem later on down the line. Not 100% sure when or where I saw that though. Just a factor worth noting.

[Crake]

Worth noting that any DM who wants to screw you simply just will, even if it's not RAW or RAI.