Where are the rules for alignment change due to spells?

[magicalmagicman]

I can't seem to find it anywhere. I want to be true neutral, but I also want to cast a ton of evil spells....

[Deadline]

They're scattered around in several books. I don't have time to dig them all out, but check out the Book of Vile Darkness (BVD) and the Fiendish Codex 2 (FCII) to start. The BVD lists a whole bunch of evil acts (and casting [Evil] spells is on page 8). FCII (page 30) explicitly lists using an evil spell as worth 1 corruption point (if you have 9 of those when you die, you literally go straight to hell, no matter how many good acts you've performed).

[hamishspence]

FCII (page 30) explicitly lists using an evil spell as worth 1 corruption point (if you have 9 of those when you die, you literally go straight to hell, no matter how many good acts you've performed).

With the possible exception of characters who are Repentant enough to qualify for being transformed into a Hellbred instead.

[Deadline]

With the possible exception of characters who are Repentant enough to qualify for being transformed into a Hellbred instead.

Right, there's also rules to go through a lengthy (and expensive) repentance to slowly remove corruption points as well.

[hamishspence]

It also focuses more on Lawful characters. I'm not sure what happens to a Chaotic or Neutral characters with Corruption 9+ but little or no Obeisance points from Lawful acts - do they automatically go to one of the Lower Planes after death - or does it not apply to them?

DMG says that it is possible (albeit unlikely) for an evil character to have a massive change of heart and immediately become Neutral or Good. Having not yet gotten rid of their Corruption - they could be Corruption 9+ and non-evil.


I can't seem to find it anywhere. I want to be true neutral, but I also want to cast a ton of evil spells....

If you go by the Heroes of Horror splatbook, it is possible for a character who balances evil acts with Good intentions to remain Neutral. Here, corruption may not be tied to alignment - only to afterlife destination.

[MisterKaws]

Just don't use evil spells for evil ends and you should be fine as long as your DM isn't one of THOSE types.

Basically, you only Mindrape evil masterminds to turn them into average dudes who like to help grannies around, or maybe use Crushing Fist of Spite to stop an Orc army from raiding a small village, stuff like that.

[magicalmagicman]

Just don't use evil spells for evil ends and you should be fine as long as your DM isn't one of THOSE types.

Basically, you only Mindrape evil masterminds to turn them into average dudes who like to help grannies around, or maybe use Crushing Fist of Spite to stop an Orc army from raiding a small village, stuff like that.

How bout planting necrotic tumors for permanent duration dominate monster effect on evil creatures to use them as disposable minions/soldiers/meatshields?

[Jormengand]

effect on evil creatures to use them as disposable minions/soldiers/meatshields?

Animate With the Spirit is an exalted spell that's pretty much explicitly designed to do this, so...

[Âmesang]

I know it probably wasn't the intent, but wouldn't magic circle against evil, a [good] descriptor spell, cancel out planar binding [evil]? :smalltongue:

[magicalmagicman]

I know it probably wasn't the intent, but wouldn't magic circle against evil, a [good] descriptor spell, cancel out planar binding [evil]? :smalltongue:

Omg! That's a great point XD.

[magicalmagicman]

Fiendish Codex II rules are absolute f****** Bull s***

So you're saying, if I summon fiendish spiders 9 times, I'm going to hell? How the hell does a summoner ever qualify for malconvoker then? D:<

I was pissed off at their planar binding rules, but this seals the deal. That whole book is just a big of bull s*** as BoED (at least that's what I'm told. I actually like BoED).

[Malimar]

I know it probably wasn't the intent, but wouldn't magic circle against evil, a [good] descriptor spell, cancel out planar binding [evil]? :smalltongue:

Around these parts, it's commonly accepted (though I don't happen to recall where the rules spell it out) that good acts don't balance out evil acts on a 1-for-1 basis. It's a lot easier to become evil than it is to become good.

[hamishspence]

How the hell does a summoner ever qualify for malconvoker then? D:<


Malconvoker class has a special rule saying "Repeated casting of [evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment" with the strong implication that, for a normal caster, it does.

[magicalmagicman]

Malconvoker class has a special rule saying "Repeated casting of [evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment" with the strong implication that, for a normal caster, it does.

Exactly, so if a spellcaster relies on monstrous spiders (which he should) before reaching level 7, he'd be too evil to be a malconvoker.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

How bout planting necrotic tumors for permanent duration dominate monster effect on evil creatures to use them as disposable minions/soldiers/meatshields?

I would personally argue that the use of what are essentially slave soldiers is, at best, highly morally dubious. I might not rule it as making you outright evil, but I wouldn't have much of a problem with a DM who did.

[Waazraath]

I would personally argue that the use of what are essentially slave soldiers is, at best, highly morally dubious. I might not rule it as making you outright evil, but I wouldn't have much of a problem with a DM who did.

I think this is exactly the reason given why the fiendbinder from Tome of Magic can be neutral, but not good: because of enslaving sentient creatures, even if they are fiends. There is an adaption rule though, that relaxes a bit on this stance, and allows good fiendbinders (basicly implying it's up to the DM how to deal with this).

[Troacctid]

It also focuses more on Lawful characters. I'm not sure what happens to a Chaotic or Neutral characters with Corruption 9+ but little or no Obeisance points from Lawful acts - do they automatically go to one of the Lower Planes after death - or does it not apply to them?
Only Lawful characters are affected by corruption points. The reason corruption points send you to Baator is that it's part of the terms of the Pact Primeval, which was only signed by Lawful deities. So if you're headed to a Chaotic afterlife, you don't need to worry about it—you're out of Hell's jurisdiction.

I honestly don't know how acts of obeisance are supposed to work given that paradigm, but whatever, they were always a little weird anyway.

[magicalmagicman]

Only Lawful characters are affected by corruption points. The reason corruption points send you to Baator is that it's part of the terms of the Pact Primeval, which was only signed by Lawful deities. So if you're headed to a Chaotic afterlife, you don't need to worry about it—you're out of Hell's jurisdiction.

I honestly don't know how acts of obeisance are supposed to work given that paradigm, but whatever, they were always a little weird anyway.

Wow, thanks for pointing that out, about it only affecting lawful characters. Ok, fiendish codex II is removed from my bull **** source book list.

[Inevitability]

Malconvoker class has a special rule saying "Repeated casting of [evil] summoning spells does not threaten to change your alignment" with the strong implication that, for a normal caster, it does.

It's not only summons, you get to ignore all kinds of alignment restrictions on conjuration spells. Non-evil Death by Thorns or Apocalypse from the Sky, anyone?

[Deadline]

Wow, thanks for pointing that out, about it only affecting lawful characters. Ok, fiendish codex II is removed from my bull **** source book list.

Keep in mind, it doesn't negate the whole "casting evil spells makes you evil" thing, just the "casting 9 evil spells will ensure you wind up in Baator so long as at least one component of your alignment is Lawful".

[magicalmagicman]

Keep in mind, it doesn't negate the whole "casting evil spells makes you evil" thing, just the "casting 9 evil spells will ensure you wind up in Baator so long as at least one component of your alignment is Lawful".

BoVD's says nonevil spellcasters can get away with casting a few evil spells as long as its not for an evil purpose, and merely warns the player that using evil spells might tempt you to be more evil.

So.. I think my neutral character is in the clear of staying neutral while summoning fiendish monstrous spiders!

[Andezzar]

Around these parts, it's commonly accepted (though I don't happen to recall where the rules spell it out) that good acts don't balance out evil acts on a 1-for-1 basis. It's a lot easier to become evil than it is to become good.The rules don't tell us how much of an alignment shift towards evil casting an [Evil] spell generates either.

[hamishspence]

1 pt Corrupt act - is on the same level as "intimidating torture" (torture that does no physical damage) and "humiliating an underling" and less evil than "stealing from the needy" (2 pts). Evil acts should be judged by comparison to other evil acts.

Given Heroes of Horror is OK with "flexible neutral" characters that animate dead a lot, for a good purpose - summoning fiendish creatures for a good purpose should be the same.

[Aquillion]

Around these parts, it's commonly accepted (though I don't happen to recall where the rules spell it out) that good acts don't balance out evil acts on a 1-for-1 basis. It's a lot easier to become evil than it is to become good.
Yeah, but I think most DMs would be amicable to the idea that Planar Binding, in particular, was not written with the alignment impact of its tags in mind (especially not relative to the later rules.)

Summoning and binding a demon is not a good thing to do, but if someone who is otherwise a good person binds demons and forces them to do good things, I wouldn't have that alone make them evil. I mean, like someone said above, that's the Malconvolker's whole shtick; if you disallow it, then that class doesn't make any sense.

[Andezzar]

Who knows what the writers intended. Apparently it is evil to find out whether someone is alive or dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm).

[hamishspence]

I blame Monte Cook - it had no alignment tag in 3.0 - he wrote in BOVD that it should have the [Evil] tag - and in 3.5 PHB it gained it.

Other books released around the same time didn't seem to notice the change - Miniatures Handbook has the Always Good healer, which has that spell. BoED has the Exalted Good Slayer of Domiel - which has that spell.

[Aquillion]

Who knows what the writers intended. Apparently it is evil to find out whether someone is alive or dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm).Yes, but it clearly says you're using foul site. Not neutral sight. Foul, wretched, evil sight.

Obviously anyone who would glimpse through that foul sight ten times over the course of their life deserves to suffer for all eternity after death.

[Andezzar]

That whole concept of unlife = evil is nonsense. How can mindless creatures (i.e. creatures who can't make any moral decisions) be evil? Why is negative energy (which seems to be fuelling necromancy and unlife) somehow more morally reprehensible than positive energy? Both can kill. It's like saying gravity is good but electromagnetism is evil.

Also foul does not necessarily mean evil. While loathsome wretched or horrid certainly are not positive adjectives, they do not necessarily convey a moral wrongdoing on the part of the user.

Gaining the information the spell provides surely isn't inherently more evil than gaining the information that detect thoughts gives.

[magicalmagicman]

That whole concept of unlife = evil is nonsense. How can mindless creatures (i.e. creatures who can't make any moral decisions) be evil? Why is negative energy (which seems to be fuelling necromancy and unlife) somehow more morally reprehensible than positive energy? Both can kill. It's like saying gravity is good but electromagnetism is evil.

Also foul does not necessarily mean evil. While loathsome wretched or horrid certainly are not positive adjectives, they do not necessarily convey a moral wrongdoing on the part of the user.

Gaining the information the spell provides surely isn't inherently more evil than gaining the information that detect thoughts gives.

I think BoVD says that even if the undead created are used for good only, they increase the negative energy on the plane and makes the world overall more dark (and evil).

[Psyren]

I can't seem to find it anywhere. I want to be true neutral, but I also want to cast a ton of evil spells....

"A ton of evil" anything is not the best way to remain neutral.


I think BoVD says that even if the undead created are used for good only, they increase the negative energy on the plane and makes the world overall more dark (and evil).

Yes, this was first explained in BoVD and then elaborated on in Libris Mortis. via the "weakening the veil" theory.

[Âmesang]

I suppose animate dead and its ilk are considered "evil" because you're desecrating the dead, and deathwatch lets one know what mortals should not know—knowing when your/someone's time is up; it goes against the natural order ordained by the gods.

Plus it lets you "see through any spell or ability that allows creatures to feign death." :smalltongue: And that's just rude.

[Psyren]

I personally think Deathwatch's evil tag is an error, especially since it shows up on an Exalted spell list (Slayer of Domiel.)

[hamishspence]

I personally think Deathwatch's evil tag is an error, especially since it shows up on an Exalted spell list (Slayer of Domiel.)

The people updating 3.0 to 3.5 probably just followed Monte Cook's recommendation in BoVD - while at the same time, not getting the message across to the writers of Miniatures Handbook and BoED.

[Psyren]

The people updating 3.0 to 3.5 probably just followed Monte Cook's recommendation in BoVD - while at the same time, not getting the message across to the writers of Miniatures Handbook and BoED.

Or the BoED and Miniature's Handbook writers ignored his recommendation. I know I would :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

There's also the infamous "Jozan casting Symbol of Pain" in the PHB illustration. (Symbol of Pain is [Evil], which Pelor shouldn't be able to grant). That one fueled part of the "Pelor the Burning Hate" theory.

[Âmesang]

Well, now, maybe Jozan cross-classed in Use Magic Device so as to fool villains?

"I'm totally evil, guys! Look!"
"…and that holy symbol on your chest?"
"Uh… look over there! A distraction!"

[Psyren]

Well, now, maybe Jozan cross-classed in Use Magic Device so as to fool villains?

"I'm totally evil, guys! Look!"
"…and that holy symbol on your chest?"
"Uh… look over there! A distraction!"

Actually, you raise a good point - the restriction in the cleric entry prevents them from casting those spells, but it doesn't actually prevent them from using items containing those spells. So by RAW he wouldn't even need UMD - the spell is still on his list even if he can never pray for it.

[Âmesang]

Honestly this and the balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485480-Tell-me-if-theres-something-wrong-with-my-plan-(planar-binding)) thread makes me wonder why protection against [alignment]/magic circle against [alignment] are all separate spells while resist/protection from energy isn't. :smallconfused:

Would it be so hard to have a note saying that clerics could only pray for appropriate versions of the spells instead of making one for each alignment?

[Elxir_Breauer]

Honestly this and the balor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485480-Tell-me-if-theres-something-wrong-with-my-plan-(planar-binding)) thread makes me wonder why protection against [alignment]/magic circle against [alignment] are all separate spells while resist/protection from energy isn't. :smallconfused:

Would it be so hard to have a note saying that clerics could only pray for appropriate versions of the spells instead of making one for each alignment?

That's basically what I do for it, combine the Alignment based Protection from X and Magic Circle against X spells into one that you have to prepare the appropriate version to use. This only becomes an issue with limited-list casters like Sorceror and Favored Soul, where they have access to all versions at a whim, and that's not a big enough issue to warrant anything being done about it.