Rogue vs Ninja

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, I've read the archives and the dead threads like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317446-3-5-Sneak-Attack-vs-Sudden-Strike&highlight=Sudden+Strike) one. I am not convinced that Sudden Strike is completely worthless when compared to Sneak Attack. For example:

One thing I never saw anybody mention was that Ninjas (the easiest class I can find that grants sudden strike) gets an ability that grants them invisibility, as a swift action, at will for 1 round. That means that 2+wis mod/day you are guaranteed sudden strike. I don't think a rogue can ever guarantee SA that many times per day. I shall break down my logic.

For this exercise we will be using a Human Ninja 5 with elite stat spread. I thing that the optimal spread would be:
Str: 13
Dex: 14
Con: 10
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

Ninjas don't seem to be the face of the party the way a rogue or bard can be so I chose Charisma as my dump stat. Also, I don't find the Ninja to be that MAD of a class. You need Dex and Wis to be an effective combatant due to the fact that you are granted you damage from sudden strike. I put the level 4 stat increase in to Wis to grant that extra point of Ki and AC.

SO: At level 5 you're getting +3d6 damage, no less than 8 times a day. Guaranteed. As well as when you catch your opponents unawares. You also can apply poison without any risk to yourself. Ninjas get the craft skill so why not craft some poisons?! Stack that on to your invisible backstabbery.

Lets talk feats: You'll want to find ways to increase the amount of sudden strike you can use. One easy way is Improved Feint, which of course carries the prereq of combat expertise which is probably a feat you were going to take anyway. I know what you're thinking, "Feinting requires bluff and that's a charisma based skill. You have a -1 charisma modifier, you're just being silly." Nearly every build out there requires at least one magic item. In this case Mask of Lies is a GREAT option. At 4.5K it nets you +5 bluff, always under undetectable alignment (which comes in handy for espionage), and 3/day disguise self. Amazing utility Item and flavorfully fits the masked ninja/assassin character.

Bottom line is that you don't NEED to flank to get SS, because its given to you for free just for being a ninja. The class abilities are amazing for Ninja and Sudden Strike is the damaging icing on the cake for a skill focused class. IMHO, better than monk hands down (not saying much, I know). But, after all that, what do you think Giant Tippers? Am I way off kilter or is this viable?!

[ComaVision]

2+3 isn't 8. Also, it's not even guaranteed those "8" times because you can still miss. How many fights is that going to last you?

A melee character can easily be swinging for that 10.5 damage every swing all day with no expenditures.

Whether this is viable or not entirely depends on your group (optimization and playstyle) but the Ninja is certainly harder to get going than the rogue. Ninja's don't qualify for Craven either, which is a must in rogue builds.

[LTwerewolf]

Flanking isn't ruined by things like tremorsense, blindsight, etc and also not ruined by things like see invisibility or true seeing. Flanking is pretty reliable and your sneak attack will work on more than just your first hit. You might be hitting 3d6 8 times per day. The rogue is hitting 6d6 every round on a flanked opponent that often works out to more than 24d6 total for the day. Catching your opponent unaware isn't a proper argument since the same thing can be said for the rogue. There's nothing particularly amazing about ninja that a UMD check can't replicate. Swift invisibility is a level 2 spell that assassins get, so they can do the same thing and get it by going rogue instead. Wands (or at-will items) of it also work if you don't mind spending some cash.

If you want to be a ninja, go rokugan ninja instead. It's pretty much better in every way and gives some abilities that are actually unique.

[AnimeTheCat]

2+3 isn't 8. Also, it's not even guaranteed those "8" times because you can still miss. How many fights is that going to last you?

A melee character can easily be swinging for that 10.5 damage every swing all day with no expenditures.

Whether this is viable or not entirely depends on your group (optimization and playstyle) but the Ninja is certainly harder to get going than the rogue. Ninja's don't qualify for Craven either, which is a must in rogue builds.

The exact formula for determining Ki Power is Ninja level + Wis Mod. That would equal 8 in my example. I wasn't clear with that because I was trying to keep detailed class information about a non-SRD class out of this. A rogue can miss more easily than a Ninja can due to the +2 bonuses provided by invisibility as well as the defender being flat footed, which is not granted by flanking. Ninja do get access to craven because the side bar of CA that ninja is found in states that Sudden Strike is the same as Sneak Attack for the purposes of feat and class prerequisites.

[AnimeTheCat]

Flanking isn't ruined by things like tremorsense, blindsight, etc and also not ruined by things like see invisibility or true seeing. Flanking is pretty reliable and your sneak attack will work on more than just your first hit. You might be hitting 3d6 8 times per day. The rogue is hitting 6d6 every round on a flanked opponent that often works out to more than 24d6 total for the day. Catching your opponent unaware isn't a proper argument since the same thing can be said for the rogue. There's nothing particularly amazing about ninja that a UMD check can't replicate. Swift invisibility is a level 2 spell that assassins get, so they can do the same thing and get it by going rogue instead. Wands (or at-will items) of it also work if you don't mind spending some cash.

If you want to be a ninja, go rokugan ninja instead. It's pretty much better in every way and gives some abilities that are actually unique.

Wands are not swift actions though. Example:

Round 1:
Swift Action - Ghost Step
Move in to melee range w/o provoking AoO
Get Sudden Strike Damage

Round 2:
Feint as move action
Get Sudden Strike damage

Rinse Repeat, No flanking necessary. Rogues simply can't do that at 5th level as effectively as a ninja.

Edit: Sorry, I also wanted to mention that Rogues can't swift invisibility until ECL 7. Ninja are doing it at ECL 2.

[AnimeTheCat]

To further the argument that a magic item could do it just as well, remember that you have limited magic item slots. I can turn invisible and later ethereal for a number of rounds per day equal to my level plus my Wisdom modifier, freeing up a magic item slot I can devote to ANYTHING else that benefits my cause. Don't underestimate the power of a class ability.

[ComaVision]

The exact formula for determining Ki Power is Ninja level + Wis Mod.

No, it's half ninja level + wis mod.


Wands are not swift actions though.



Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores, but activating the item doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity

[Deadline]

The exact formula for determining Ki Power is Ninja level + Wis Mod.

It's half Ninja level + Wis Mod.

And feinting isn't useful or even reliable for your poor Charisma defficient Ninja. Most of the time he's going to fail to successfully make the feint check (because the defender gets to add their base attack bonus to their sense motive check), which means no Sudden Strike damage.

Ninja's (and Sudden Strike) are, in fact, worse in almost every way when compared to a Rogue and Sneak Attack. It's disappointing, really.

[AnimeTheCat]

No, it's half ninja level + wis mod.

You're right, I misread that. But as for activating wands, the spell invisibility is a standard action which means using a wand of invisibility on yourself is a standard action.

[ComaVision]

But as for activating wands, the spell invisibility is a standard action which means using a wand of invisibility on yourself is a standard action.

The (above mentioned) Swift Invisibility spell is definitely a swift action.

[AnimeTheCat]

It's half Ninja level + Wis Mod.

And feinting isn't useful or even reliable for your poor Charisma defficient Ninja. Most of the time he's going to fail to successfully make the feint check (because the defender gets to add their base attack bonus to their sense motive check), which means no Sudden Strike damage.

Ninja's (and Sudden Strike) are, in fact, worse in almost every way when compared to a Rogue and Sneak Attack. It's disappointing, really.

How common is it to come across enemies with the sense motive skill? That's not really a common occurrence for the town guard or random bandit. Also, like I said earlier, Mask of Lies is a flat +5 bonus to your bluff check. At level 5 you're going to have 8 ranks. You now have yourself a +12 bonus to bluff checks when feinting in combat. That's not simple to overcome by any means, even if you are adding your BAB.

[Deadline]

You're right, I misread that. But as for activating wands, the spell invisibility is a standard action which means using a wand of invisibility on yourself is a standard action.

There is a Swift Invisibility spell that has a swift action casting time. It's also the spell he mentioned.

Edit - Sense Motive is usable untrained. So your poorly optimized skill check is going to be going up against a slightly lower modifier for even the worst prepared of foes (you're looking at being successful slightly more than 50% of the time with that). For anyone who actually invests in Sense Motive (like, say, a guard?), you'll be failing even more. All while he beats you senseless because he doesn't need you to be flanked in order to do his damage, just within reach (which you've conveniently done for him). Against monsters designed to fight an entire party of adventurers, it's even worse, because they'll typically have a much higher base attack bonus than the party fighter.

[ComaVision]

How common is it to come across enemies with the sense motive skill? That's not really a common occurrence for the town guard or random bandit. Also, like I said earlier, Mask of Lies is a flat +5 bonus to your bluff check. At level 5 you're going to have 8 ranks. You now have yourself a +12 bonus to bluff checks when feinting in combat. That's not simple to overcome by any means, even if you are adding your BAB.

And all it took was half your WBL. If you can't get it that early, it'd be your +7 bluff vs +5 BaB from a guard the same level.

[AnimeTheCat]

The (above mentioned) Swift Invisibility spell is definitely a swift action.

Ok, I see that. I'm still standing by what I said that a second level Ninja that can go invisible at will is better than a rogue that has to use a magic item to do it. I can put my 2k+ gold towards something else that I need. There isn't a thing wrong with this in any normal D&D campaign. I'm not saying that Ninja should be Tier 1 or any craziness like that, but the class lends to itself very well and I think that was by design. Rogues work well with others, ninja are quintessentially silent killers of the night so they have class abilities that reflect that.

[AnimeTheCat]

And all it took was half your WBL. If you can't get it that early, it'd be your +7 bluff vs +5 BaB from a guard the same level.

You still hold the advantage at that point. Quaff a potion of Eagle's splendor if you don't have the cash for the mask by then. Boom, +9 vs +5.

[A.A.King]

If you really want to, you can make a viable Ninja Character (if we define Ninja as a character whose primary way of inflicting damage is Sudden Strike). The problem is that you can make that same character but better using Sneak Attack. If your plan is to be invisible most of the time you are better of grabbing some caster levels to cast Greater Invisibility than building around your limited daily pool of Ki and if you want to build a Feinter you will want to grab levels in either Hidden Stalker or levels in Scarlet Corsair both of which grant you some form of actual Sneak Attack (which sort of undoes the decision to not use Sneak Attack in the first place). Also, by prestige classing out you also stop progressing your already small (and mainly useless) Ki pool which also makes your decision to go Ninja seem irrelevant.

Another thing that makes a Rogue better than a Ninja is the abilities that aren't Precision damage. 5 Levels of Rogue (which is usually the amount you take before you prestige out) also grant you Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. The latter being the most important because you can trade it away for Penetrating Strike which allows you to partially overcome immunity to precision damage.

The most important things to look for when planning a precision damage build are: 1) How do I Trigger it and 2) How do I deal with creature normally Immune. Sneak Attack makes the first easier and Rogue levels make the second easier. A Ninja build will have to spend a lot of resources to get point 1 and 2 leaving you little room for extra fun stuff.

[Fizban]

Sudden Strike is only worse than Sneak Attack if you intend to do flanking. If you don't want to flank, there's no need for Sneak Attak. Ninja is only worse than Rogue due to it's lack of immunity piercing ACFs and people who assume you want to be in melee all the time, which as a sneaky assassiny character, why would you?

You have no need to rely on Ghost Step to trigger Sudden Strike, it's just a bonus. You still get it every time you win initiative, surprise round, or cycle through a Hide check. UMD is overrated: it's unreliable until you've reached the level where anyone could have it if they wanted.

[ComaVision]

Ok, I see that. I'm still standing by what I said that a second level Ninja that can go invisible at will is better than a rogue that has to use a magic item to do it. I can put my 2k+ gold towards something else that I need. There isn't a thing wrong with this in any normal D&D campaign. I'm not saying that Ninja should be Tier 1 or any craziness like that, but the class lends to itself very well and I think that was by design. Rogues work well with others, ninja are quintessentially silent killers of the night so they have class abilities that reflect that.

"At will" doesn't jive well with "4 times a day".

I'm sure ninja does fine in low op and/or low combat games but it is not competitive with sneak attack/rogues. If it makes you feel better, ninja is probably better at very low levels for the first one or two fights of the day.

EDIT:

You still hold the advantage at that point. Quaff a potion of Eagle's splendor if you don't have the cash for the mask by then. Boom, +9 vs +5.

It's not reliable and you're not getting full attacks. Also, I'd rather use a wand charge for Swift Invisibility than a 300 gp potion.

[Deadline]

Ok, I see that. I'm still standing by what I said that a second level Ninja that can go invisible at will is better than a rogue that has to use a magic item to do it.

And might be something to talk about, if that were true. But it isn't. The Ninja can go invisible for 1 round roughly 3-4 times per day.

Ninjas, unfortunately, are worse off than Rogues. The Ki powers are neat, but no where near useful enough to bring them up to par. I'm not saying people shouldn't play the class, but their Ki system really needed to not be a "per day" thing. Reducing the number of uses and making it a "per Encounter" deal would have been a much better design.

[Zombimode]

Ninja's don't qualify for Craven either, which is a must in rogue builds.

Craven is not a "must" in rogue builds. It is certainly a powerful feat, but rogues already do good damage. They don't depend on Craven.
There are other reasons why Craven is hardly universal:
1. It comes from a setting books which might constrain its availability.
2. It has actual implications on the personality of the character which limits the range of applicable characters.

You are right that by strict RAW Ninja do not qualify for Craven because while Sudden Strike and Sneack Attack can be interchanged in almost any other way, Ninjas do not technically possess the "Sneak Attack class feature" that is required for Craven. I have yet to meet a GM that is that pedantic and ignorant about the obviously intended transparency between Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack.


To the OP: yes, many people seem to underrate the Ninja. From my personal experience of having played several "roguish" characters including a single classed Ninja from level 1 to level 13 or 14 I can say that Ghost Step is a VERY nice ability (it gets even more awesome when upgraded at level 10) that will be missed by similar characters. A Ninja can certainly act more independently than most Rogues.
I also can't remember not getting Sudden Strike consistently as a problem. Not past the very low levels. But it should be noted that my character had spend a feat on Martial Study (Cloak of Deception) which helps a lot.

Another point some people can miss is that the Ghost Step does NOT reference the Invisibility spell. Thus is works like the special ability which does not get broken by an attack.

Don't get me wrong, I do not try to elevate the Ninja above the Rogue. They are both valid and sufficiently different takes on the archetype and each come with its own intricacies, strengths and weaknesses in relation to each other.

[AvatarVecna]

A rogue gets sneak attack when a target loses their Dex bonus to AC, or when they're flanking.
A ninja gets sudden strike when a target loses their Dex bonus to AC.

That flanking thing, that lets rogues get Sneak attack while leaving ninjas sad? It's pretty common in D&D games. You are absolutely right when you say that a rogue completely on their own has to invest resources in getting their SA, while a ninja completely on their own can at least get their SS guaranteed a handful of times per day. But that's the thing: D&D isn't a solo game, it's a group activity. A solo ninja with nothing but a weapon may deal more damage per day than a solo rogue with nothing but a weapon, but the DPR of two rogues with nothing but weapons will skyrocket psat two ninjas with nothing but weapons.

The monk rushes into melee? Flanking partner. The Paladin charges in on horseback? Flanking partner. The Cleric wades into melee? Flanking partner. The Druid turns into/summons a bear? Flanking partner. There's another rogue in the party? Flanking partner.

It doesn't help that Rogue has native access to (Ab)Use Magic Device, where the Ninja does not, but it's not even necessary. It also doesn't help that a lot of things that boost SA (such as the Craven feat) don't boost SS, but it's not even necessary. Just the ability to get their bonus damage from having a friend nearby puts the rogue miles ahead of their ninja brethren.

[A.A.King]

One more thing that IMO really sets back the Ninja Class: Their reliance on Wisdom (which is usually a dump stat for my Rogueish characters) means that you either get a lower Constitution and lower Intelligence or (more likely) a much lower Intelligence which means you end up with fewer skill points. Here is the real kicker: Ninjas already get 2 skill points per level fewer than Rogues. So not only are you pretty much forced to distribute your stats in such a way that you get fewer skill points, you still get less than a Rogue would if he had the same stats.

[AnimeTheCat]

"At will" doesn't jive well with "4 times a day".

I'm sure ninja does fine in low op and/or low combat games but it is not competitive with sneak attack/rogues. If it makes you feel better, ninja is probably better at very low levels for the first one or two fights of the day.

EDIT:


It's not reliable and you're not getting full attacks. Also, I'd rather use a wand charge for Swift Invisibility than a 300 gp potion.

You're right, I'm not using the proper terms for that. Sorry. A rogue isn't getting full BAB and at level 5 they both only have one attack anyway. I don't see how that is an appropriate comparison. A wand of swift invisibility is more costly than a potion and you don't have to use a potion every time you want to feint. Its for assurance when you need it. You could also have a bard in the party or any number of other magical effects. Bringing magic items in to the mix isn't a solution for either class because both classes can magic item into godhood anyway. Every class can do that. Magic items are not an argument.

[AvatarVecna]

Wand of "Swift Invisibility" is okay at low levels, but you'll blow through charges pretty quickly; once you've got a decent amount of gold saved up, springing for a Wand of Summon Monster III lets you summon 1d4+2 creatures from the SM I list...which gives you 3-6 flanking buddies for at least 5 rounds. Much better payoff, and the wand lasts a lot longer IME.

EDIT: Of course, such a wand is only necessary if you're a solo rogue in need of backup and flanking partners; if you're with your party, you'll need neither one.

[ComaVision]

I don't see how that is an appropriate comparison. A wand of swift invisibility is more costly than a potion and you don't have to use a potion every time you want to feint. Its for assurance when you need it. You could also have a bard in the party or any number of other magical effects. Bringing magic items in to the mix isn't a solution for either class because both classes can magic item into godhood anyway. Every class can do that. Magic items are not an argument.

One charge of Swift Invisibility is 90g, a potion of Eagle's Splendor is 300g and provides very little extra assurance.

For what it's worth though, a rogue can magic item into godhood easier than a ninja too.

[LTwerewolf]

You're right, I'm not using the proper terms for that. Sorry. A rogue isn't getting full BAB and at level 5 they both only have one attack anyway. I don't see how that is an appropriate comparison. A wand of swift invisibility is more costly than a potion and you don't have to use a potion every time you want to feint. Its for assurance when you need it. You could also have a bard in the party or any number of other magical effects. Bringing magic items in to the mix isn't a solution for either class because both classes can magic item into godhood anyway. Every class can do that. Magic items are not an argument.

The issue with your argument is that a single charge of the wand is costing 90 gold. Assuming someone in the party didn't make it. Then it would cost 45 gold. It's also only necessary when you don't have your flanking buddy so you're not needing to activate it every turn. When I played a rogue, i generally used maybe one charge per encounter. Sometimes I didn't use charges at all because my flanking buddies were on point. Magic items such as wands are indeed a proper argument, because rogues get UMD as a class skill while ninjas do not. This is an important distinction. Especially with having dumped CHA, you're not going to be getting enough ranks in UMD to reliably activate wands until after level 12 at best, assuming you're putting your skill points into it at a 2-1 ratio, making the rogue pull even further ahead in skill points. If you have to take able learner just to keep up, now you've sacrificed a precious feat slot. That by itself is enough to put everything in favor of the rogue.


Your entire argument hinges on the usability of sudden strike being equal to the rogue's. It isn't. The rogue gets similar tools to activate their sneak attack as a ninja, except they can also do it without expending resources by having friends. They also have tools to combat against immunity.

[Godskook]

One thing I never saw anybody mention was that Ninjas (the easiest class I can find that grants sudden strike) gets an ability that grants them invisibility, as a swift action, at will for 1 round. That means that 2+wis mod/day you are guaranteed sudden strike. I don't think a rogue can ever guarantee SA that many times per day. I shall break down my logic.

This is roughly 2+Wis is roughly once per combat. Are you really trying to argue that Rogues can't find a flank 1 per combat? I think you're grossly underestimating how easy it is to flank somebody.

[Fizban]

The rogue gets similar tools to activate their sneak attack as a ninja, except they can also do it without expending resources by having friends.
Uh, that's actually backwards. The rogue doesn't "get" any "tools", it gets the ability to unreliably activate tools that cost money and must be available for purchase or crafted for them, which are not available in all games. Said tools are a consumable resource which does not regenerate. The Ninja's ghost step is no more of a limited resource than a wizard's spells, and they can do it butt naked solo. Also you've all got the price wrong: Swift Invisibility is Bard 1, it's 30gp/charge.

Furthermore, while a Rogue can flank all day there's a limit on how many fights they can actually have in one day, said flanking requires another ally to already be in melee (so they're dying faster and you get less rounds), and positioning to flank a foe that's not a moron is not automatic (you can and will waste rounds getting into position). How many rounds do you flanking sneak attack per day? If it's more than the Ninja has Ghost Steps, then congratulations, you can legitimately say that you activate sneak attack more often as long as those specific conditions remain available and you walk into melee range. If it's less then you really aren't any better. Meanwhile the Ninja gets a massive miss chance that makes being in melee a lot less dangerous, and continues to not care about wasting limited resources or need anyone other than himself.

The OP may be trying to phrase this in a char-op perspective, but that's silly because obviously Rogue is going to win any char-op debate just like wizard: everything will always be assumed in their favor, they have greater versatility than the more specialized class, and gobs of splatbook support. For purposes more interesting than seeing who can swing the biggest bag of d6's when everything goes their way, Ninja is just fine.

[LTwerewolf]

It doesn't have to be assumed in their favor. Anything the ninja can do the rogue can replicate through the tools it gets. UMD is a tool it gets, whether or not you like that. Getting into flanking position is also not very difficult with tumble after level 3. If the ninja starts using their ki points for the concealment, they're getting fewer of the ghost steps, further reducing their damage.

If sudden strike were sneak attack the ninja would be in a better place, because it gives more versatility in which they can use their schtick. Arguably the ninja would still be weaker (lack of UMD), but it would become a much closer thing. The idea that sudden strike is as good as sneak attack is objectively false.

Plus flanking still works on things with see invisibility or true seeing.

[ComaVision]

Also you've all got the price wrong: Swift Invisibility is Bard 1, it's 30gp/charge.


Every source I can find says Assassin 2, Bard 2. Where are you seeing Bard 1?


If the ninja starts using their ki points for the concealment, they're getting fewer of the ghost steps, further reducing their damage.


He was talking about the concealment from invisibility, not ki dodge.

[AnimeTheCat]

It doesn't have to be assumed in their favor. Anything the ninja can do the rogue can replicate through the tools it gets. UMD is a tool it gets, whether or not you like that. Getting into flanking position is also not very difficult with tumble after level 3. If the ninja starts using their ki points for the concealment, they're getting fewer of the ghost steps, further reducing their damage.

If sudden strike were sneak attack the ninja would be in a better place, because it gives more versatility in which they can use their schtick. Arguably the ninja would still be weaker (lack of UMD), but it would become a much closer thing. The idea that sudden strike is as good as sneak attack is objectively false.

Plus flanking still works on things with see invisibility or true seeing.

Ok, I fully understand what you're saying as UMD being a tool that the rogue is getting. I also know how tumble works, but the thing about tumble and UMD is that they both carry the risk of failure. You can't take 10 on either of those checks in combat unless you have a class that grants you that ability. Combat is a stressful situation thereby keeping you from taking 10. On top of that, the argument that "that's another skill you have to put points in to" goes in my favor as well. A rogue is only getting 2 more points per round. Now you've told me that you need to put those points in tumble and UMD. congrats, you've just used up your 2 points per level. This character could even switch the Strength score with the charisma to get a bonus on bluff checks for feinting. Strength doesn't apply to SS damage and you're already attacking something flat footed. If you're invisible you get an additional +2. That's better odds than a flanking rogue any day.

See Invisibility is a 2nd level wizard spell with a range of PERSONAL. Awesome, the wizard can see invisibility. What's the likelihood of a wizard always having that active from before combat starts? Probably quite low. After the first round it won't matter because the ninja will have closed the distance and will be successfully feinting the wizard because they aren't exactly known for their high will scores or sense motive checks now are they?

Everything about both builds is situational. Yes SA is better than SS because of flanking. I get it. You don't have to keep repeating it. All I'm saying is that the class abilities of the Ninja mitigate it's reliance on UMD and Tumble simultaneously. I don't need those skills as a ninja. I get much, much more than just one combat ability as a ninja.

No, the ninja is NOT better than a rogue. Everyone has made that point very clear. All I have to say is that from anecdotal experience, those class abilities that you all say are useless have been EXTREMELY handy to have around. The ninja can do the same things a rogue can, they just have to do it a different way. That's all I'm getting at. Is it optimal for a roguish type? No, but it works just fine.

[Gallowglass]

AnimeTheCat>

You are just having a different argument than those arguing with you.

You started the thread saying "I don't think Sudden Strike is as useless as people say it is, I have seen it be useful in practice. I think its nice to have a small handful of sudden strikes you KNOW are going to work per day without having to use flanking strategy to get it to work like you do with sneak attack."

Everyone else is now arguing that "rogues are better than ninjas. Sneak Attack is better than Sudden Strike."

Its kind of like you said "I think the sky is a very nice shade of blue in August." and everyone else started in with "The sky is crap compared to the sea. The sea is way better. The sky is full of air, the sea is where cthulhu sleeps!"


I get what you are saying. If I'm saddled with sudden strike I can definitely get it to be functional and you are right, it works nice in the class that showcases it. But, in my experience, if I get to choose, I choose sneak attack (well I actually choose Skirmish, but that's neither here nor there) because I tend, in my games, to have 3-4 combat encounters per workday and that's usually 20-30 rounds of combat. I also -like- complex teamwork positioning strategy, and I can usually get 15 or more sneak attack hits in those 20-30 rounds of combat. I like that versatility with risk over the confidence of the lower number of sudden strikes. Also, I like team combat more than solo combat. If I was playing a solo game, I might take sudden strike over sneak attack in that edge case. (I mean, if skirmish is off the table.)

[AvatarVecna]

No, the ninja is NOT better than a rogue. Everyone has made that point very clear. All I have to say is that from anecdotal experience, those class abilities that you all say are useless have been EXTREMELY handy to have around. The ninja can do the same things a rogue can, they just have to do it a different way. That's all I'm getting at. Is it optimal for a roguish type? No, but it works just fine.

See, I absolutely agree with all of this. Ninja isn't useless...it's just worse than the rogue, and only in a few slight differences; it doesn't suck, it's just not as good. It can't get UMD, it doesn't get as many skill points, and it doesn't get flanking to activate its bonus damage, but it's still a solid class. Sure, it's not optimal, but it's interesting for other reasons.

And if this had been your assertion from the beginning, I wouldn't have a problem with it...nor indeed would many other people. Here's the problem, straight from the OP:


I am not convinced that Sudden Strike is completely worthless when compared to Sneak Attack.
I don't think a rogue can ever guarantee SA that many times per day.

I agree with the first part of the first quote; Sudden Strike is not worthless, it's bonus damage that can be gained from denying a foe their Dex to AC...of which their are a multitude of ways to do that, including one you gain as a limited use/day class feature. It's far from worthless...but if you're going to include the second part of that sentence, you have to acknowledge that Sneak Attack is, objectively, superior to Sudden Strike, because methods of getting a flank are depressingly ubiquitous in this edition: any method of getting another creature to flank with you (such as from having melee allies, or having summoned creatures present) gets you SA, but would not get you SS.

In order for the first quote from the OP to be correct, you'd have to change it from...


Sudden Strike is worthless when compared to Sneak Attack.
Sudden Strike is worth less when compared to Sneak Attack.

To clarify what's already emphasized: SS, compared to SA, is not worthless...but it's definitely worth less.

The second quote, however, is only true in a solo game with no magic items...a situation that virtually never comes up in-game unless you've made a series of poor decisions combined with bad rolls. If you have any allies, you can basically guarantee SA all hella day. If you have certain magic items, you can guarantee SA all hella day. If you have allies and certainly guarantee SA all hella day.

I don't hate the Ninja. I don't think it's worthless. It has a lot of interesting abilities.

But it's worse than the rogue...and your original post seemed to heavily disagree with that.

EDIT: I too also prefer Skirmish to SA or SS, even though it gives less damage, because Skirmish is less circumstantial, builds that incorporate it tend to interest me more, and it's easier to work your way around the various type-based immunities to precision damage.

[LTwerewolf]

I never said the ninja was the most terrible thing to exist. It's not CW samurai or truenamer 19. Its abilities have uses at times. That doesn't mean sudden strike isn't straight inferior and requires much more hoop jumping than sneak attack even with the extra abilities from ninja. Against a regular beat stick it generally doesn't tend to matter much. As soon as spellcasters come into the mix it starts to matter a lot.

Your assertion of successfully feinting a wizard every single round is pretty off too. Even at low levels wizards have ways to get away from you and stay that way. Also if you expect to actually attack the same round that you're feinting, you've now burned 2 feats the rogue didn't need to. You're also only getting 1 attack instead of a full attack assuming all else goes according to plan. I call that extra hoops to jump through to get it to "work."

Let's assume they don't have see invisibility up. Let's assume they don't even have that spell. They can use a spot check of 0 to get close enough for glitterdust to hit you. even if you make the save, you're sparkly. A sparkly ninja is a not invisible ninja. Substitute wizard for druid. You're still pretty glowy with a faerie fire. Ninjas also have problems against things with other sight types such as tremorsense, and blindsight. In all of those situations things can still be flanked.

Tumble doesn't fail on a 1, and ninjas even with ghost step are going to want to invest some into tumble. It has a lot of utility in a lot of situations.

UMD also has more utility than just turning invisible.


Again ninja is not the worst thing ever, but when compared to something else that can do its job (the rogue) and comparing sudden strike to sneak attack it comes up short.

[Fizban]

The idea that sudden strike is as good as sneak attack is objectively false.
Obviously, it's written in the main abilities.

Plus flanking still works on things with see invisibility or true seeing.
Not common until higher levels, doesn't invalidate other methods.

Every source I can find says Assassin 2, Bard 2. Where are you seeing Bard 1?
Spell Compendium.

As soon as spellcasters come into the mix it starts to matter a lot. . .Even at low levels wizards have ways to get away from you and stay that way. Also if you expect to actually attack the same round that you're feinting, you've now burned 2 feats the rogue didn't need to. . .Let's assume they don't have see invisibility up. Let's assume they don't even have that spell.
And here you continue assuming everything goes your way. Let's put if from the Ninja's perspective: he sneaks up on a wizard that won't beat his spot check, throws a surprise round hit, and then rolls initiative. If the wizard actually has any of those spells ready, and hasn't used them on something else that day, and wins initiative, then the Ninja retreats until it wear off. Or he wins initiative and starts bamfing around completely silently so the wizard has to guess where he is. "Even at low levels," when at low levels the wizard has few slots to begin with and every slot spent trying not to die for a round a slot that doesn't harm the Ninja.

And none of that gets to where PC classed foes are not normal enemies and have nothing to do with effectiveness in parties of adventurers fighting monsters.

They can use a spot check of 0 to get close enough for glitterdust to hit you. even if you make the save, you're sparkly. A sparkly ninja is a not invisible ninja. Substitute wizard for druid. You're still pretty glowy with a faerie fire.
Uh, what? You're actually comparing the obviously stealth focused Ninja by assuming he walks up in plain sight?

Ninjas also have problems against things with other sight types such as tremorsense, and blindsight.
Tremorsense only give location, does not stop invisibility. Blindsight not much more common than see invisibility and I've never seen anyone build a sneak without Darkstalker.

Again ninja is not the worst thing ever, but when compared to something else that can do its job (the rogue) and comparing sudden strike to sneak attack it comes up short.
You're arguing pretty hard for someone who thinks the class works on it's own. The OP has recognized that Sneak Attack is better than Sudden Strike, as is obvious from their entries, but you continue to give extremely specific scenarios for making a Ninja fail while ignoring that it has a completely different approach than your flanking rogue. No one cares that the Rogue is factually better than the Ninja when everything is allowed, just like no one cares about wiz vs sor. Sorcerer is still plenty strong with the added bonus of not being tied to any external requirements, same as a Ninja.

[LTwerewolf]

Obviously, it's written in the main abilities.


And here you continue assuming everything goes your way. Let's put if from the Ninja's perspective: he sneaks up on a wizard that won't beat his spot check, throws a surprise round hit, and then rolls initiative. If the wizard actually has any of those spells ready, and hasn't used them on something else that day, and wins initiative, then the Ninja retreats until it wear off. Or he wins initiative and starts bamfing around completely silently so the wizard has to guess where he is. "Even at low levels," when at low levels the wizard has few slots to begin with and every slot spent trying not to die for a round a slot that doesn't harm the Ninja.

Rogues can do the exact same thing here, invalidating this being "in the favor of the ninja." It isn't. It's identical.



Uh, what? You're actually comparing the obviously stealth focused Ninja by assuming he walks up in plain sight?
That was supposed to be 20, though the listen check to find the square is 0 if they're in combat (attacking).


Tremorsense only give location, does not stop invisibility. Blindsight not much more common than see invisibility and I've never seen anyone build a sneak without Darkstalker.
"A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground."


You're arguing pretty hard for someone who thinks the class works on it's own.
You're arguing pretty hard for someone that thinks the ninja is inferior. See what I did there?



I use the examples he is using.

[quote] while ignoring that it has a completely different approach than your flanking rogue.
The rogue has the same options, except they also have flanking where the ninja does not.


No one cares that the Rogue is factually better than the Ninja when everything is allowed, just like no one cares about wiz vs sor. Sorcerer is still plenty strong with the added bonus of not being tied to any external requirements, same as a Ninja.

If you don't care why is it so important to continue the discussion? You seem to have gotten rather hostile rather quickly, so I suppose you're not discussing, you're arguing, but the point remains. At low op tables no one really notices the difference. This much is true. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference. The op, however, was making a case against the established norm (ss=sa). Everything doesn't have to be allowed for rogues to be better than the ninja. You just have to be in a campaign where you have friends (most campaigns) and where magic items exist (most campaigns). I simply house rule that CA rogues get sneak attack instead of sudden strike. At that point the differences aren't as significant.

[zergling.exe]

"A creature with tremorsense is sensitive to vibrations in the ground and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground."

Automatic pinpoint means they know which 5 foot square the target is in. They still are flatfooted against the invisible attacker because tremorsense doesn't beat the total concealment invisibility grants.

edit: Also when it upgrades to etherealness the ninja beats tremorsense and blindsight by not being on the same plane as the enemies.

[animewatcha]

Let's forget a few things shall we? Let's forget a rogue's uncanny dodge gotten at level 4 which qualifies as usable in the level 5 ninja and level 5 rogue debacle. This means that ghost step is less useful against rogue as the rogue will not be sudden strike'd by invisible attacker. So round 1 of sudden strike gets met with a big DENIED with 1st turn of rogue NOW knowing what square the ninja is in due to the attack can 5 foot step or tumble - only gotta meet a 15 with 8 ranks of tumble starting toward it before everything starts adding it. Let's not forget that rogues start level 1 with 32 skills points before int mod. Anyways tumble into usage of Battlefield control wand of -insert bfc spell-. If we go by partially charged wands then drop a black tentacles. Bonus to UMD check if rogue has already activated the wand before 'like before even meeting ninja'.

Ethereal strike comes online at 10th level which then bring other parties to 10th level. Rogue has more toys. Wizards has MORE TOYS.

Wizard.. It is not uncommon for wizard to have eternal wands ( or regular wands ) of Primal Instinct and Primal Hunter. These being made cheaper due to spell level 1 and 2 for ranger and consecrated harrier. Two primals together give uncanny dodge so no sudden strike. These two buffs have 24 hour durations so they are cast 'before meeting the ninja'. Eternal wands have explicit language that any arcane caster can use them IIRC making wizard not needing UMD checks to use eternal wand of 'divine' primal series. Level 5 wizard also has access to fly and nerveskitter. nerveskitter giving +5 to initiative and fly giving access to ninja losing melee chance to hit wizard.

Also, attack wizard shows where you are and incoming BFC.

-edit- also. Ninja's ki pool is one-half class level plus wis bonus modifier. 5 goes to 2.5 which rounds down to 2 ( rules on round ) + 3 for wisdom modifier. So level 5 ninja with 16 wis has 5 uses. Each use lasts for 1 round and eats a swift action. Due to last one round, you do become visible before you use it again. Giving away your position briefly as well as your range of movement.

[Fizban]

Rogues can do the exact same thing here, invalidating this being "in the favor of the ninja." It isn't. It's identical.
Your argument was that wizards can invalidate sudden strike because they can invalidate ghost step. I have demonstrated that they do not, or at least not anymore than it would bother a rogue. It doesn't matter if both classes can do the same thing in the same situation because then they're doing the same thing.

That was supposed to be 20, though the listen check to find the square is 0 if they're in combat (attacking).
I assume you are referencing the epic usage of spot "notice an invisible creature,' which only allows you to notice them (an undefined term). If you want to find the square they're in (known as pinpointing), you need to beat that DC 20 by a further 20. In order to pinpoint someone via listen, you again need to beat the DC by 20. The DC to hear "a battle" is -10, meaning even then you still need a DC10 check (not guaranteed without investment), and frankly if you suggested that a single assassin makes as much noise as "a battle" I would laugh you out of the room. The absolute best I would give you is move silently -20 (same as running, and then +20 to pinpoint of course), and even that's being generous. Also ignores the fact that you can (and should) move *after* attacking if you're trying to avoid being hit or spelled, at which point you're rolling against a much lower penalty if any.

I would suggest you familiarize yourself more with the stealth and detection mechanics before attempting to judge stealth and detection mechanics.

(And wizards don't have spot or listen in class so the idea that a lucky 20 vs ghost step is any sort of weakness is, ha. You'd be much better off arguing that dragons and outsiders have excellent spot/listen scores, and enough magic to ruin your day, and twice a wizard's hp or more. . . all of which works against the rogue just as well, the rogue merely having the option to stand in a bad place and take a gamble.)

You're arguing pretty hard for someone that thinks the ninja is inferior. See what I did there?
Indeed, you have mirrored my petty barb. But you've yet to provide an argument for why flanking is necessary, and thus why lacking it makes the ninja inferior. Poorly mimicking the ninja's own tricks does not make the ninja worse. I said the rogue was factually better, not that the ninja was inferior-a difference in nuance. I'm also pushing the minority argument so I need to fight harder by definition.

The rogue has the same options, except they also have flanking where the ninja does not.
None of which makes them any less effective for the ninja.

If you don't care why is it so important to continue the discussion? You seem to have gotten rather hostile rather quickly, so I suppose you're not discussing, you're arguing, but the point remains. At low op tables no one really notices the difference. This much is true. That doesn't mean there isn't a difference. The op, however, was making a case against the established norm (ss=sa). Everything doesn't have to be allowed for rogues to be better than the ninja. You just have to be in a campaign where you have friends (most campaigns) and where magic items exist (most campaigns). I simply house rule that CA rogues get sneak attack instead of sudden strike. At that point the differences aren't as significant.
It's called hyperbole, obviously people care or there wouldn't be anyone talking about it, just like there's a wiz vs sor thread every month. If I seem hostile, it's because I've gotten rather tired of RAW zealots and char-op extremists dumping all over stuff that works perfectly fine (it builds up over the years- I was also posting quickly right before work so it's a bit rough). You're not being particuarly disagreeable, but the old standbys of "assume everything works the way I want it to but not yours" and "wizards mean your class is invalid" are still empty arguments, the first only holding up until the DM realizes he should be in control of the bad guys, and the second indicating a failure to understand the core game balance. In sum: ninja works, sorcerer works, rogue and wizard being better is old news. But the OP seems to need some reassurance and no one's made my case for me so here I am.

I'll be honest: I didn't even read most of the first post. I knew perfectly well that whatever math he presented wouldn't hold up and he's been barking up the wrong tree trying to invent scenarios where a ninja can produce more reliable damage than a rogue operating without constraints, and I'm not here to argue about that (I have presented a general formula for consideration: rounds of flanking vs rounds of ghost step, which is highly variable-also no one's payed any attention to ghost step+ranged having actual range and thus allowing more full attacks/never being in melee, but anyway). The only important line was this: "I am not convinced that Sudden Strike is completely worthless when compared to Sneak Attack." And he is fully correct. Sudden strike is not completely worthless next to sneak attack. It does not matter that a rogue can get similar effects through specific magic items, nor how common those items are. A rogue *cannot* do natively what a ninja can do, and sudden strike will get the job done. He's clearly not interested in maximum char-op so I see no reason to continue pointing out that the rogue is capable of more.