Target: Murderhobos

[Palanan]

It occurred to me that a well-organized imperial state, with a large population and resource base, would want to keep a firm lid on any murderhoboing in its territory, and might train and deploy teams designed to neutralize ordinary adventuring parties when they get out of hand.

I'm thinking a team of four, capped at seventh level for now, which would be dispatched to deal with lower-level murderhobos running amok. I'd like to use official Pathfinder and 3.5 material, but no psionics, no ToB and no Incarnum.

So, who should be on this team of hobo-hunters, and what gear and tactics should they use?

.

[GreyBlack]

It occurred to me that a well-organized imperial state, with a large population and resource base, would want to keep a firm lid on any murderhoboing in its territory, and might train and deploy teams designed to neutralize ordinary adventuring parties when they get out of hand.

I'm thinking a team of four, capped at seventh level for now, which would be dispatched to deal with lower-level murderhobos running amok. I'd like to use official Pathfinder and 3.5 material, but no psionics, no ToB and no Incarnum.

So, who should be on this team of hobo-hunters, and what gear and tactics should they use?

.

I like this idea!

Okay first and foremost, determine the level of magic in the area. You'll likely want to make this something of a religious order, likely Good, because it seems like the kind of thing a Good organization would do.

Now. Leader is a Cleric, bar none. No introduction needed.

Second, you're going to want an Investigator/Inquisitor/Ranger kind of skill monkey. Maybe even a slayer! Basically, someone who can track down murderhoboes and murder them back. At level 7, all of your divine power will do squat if you can't find them, and you'll be able to prepare spell slots for when you need them.

Third, you're going to want a Templar-esque slayer. Something like an Occult Slayer. Personally, I would go with a Paladin/Occult Slayer combo. Alternatively, a Bard/Paladin with emphasis on buffing and countersong, making your allies have astronomical saves.

Finally, sometimes all you need is a brute. Train a Barbarian or Bloodrager from birth and let them handle any BSF problems when necessary.

Make sure they all have quirky personalities!

[ATHATH]

Eh, I'd say that the organization would most likely be Lawful, not necessarily Good.

Seven is a weird level. What do you think about brining that down to level 6 so that you can use E6 builds?

[Sayt]

Okay, seventh level, first party 3.5 and PF, default systems? I'm going to be defaulting to Pathfinder, 'cause that's what I know better.

Obviously you need a wizard. Magical detection, dispelling, what scrying you can get at seventh level, and you've access to some great debuffs like Black Tentacles, and utility like Scrying. Wizards are good, 'nuff said.

I'd go with a Ranger as well, with Favored Enemy Human and then the enxt largest demographic block. Seventh level means you've just got into 4th level spells and don't have all the good, long-distance scrying, or a huge number of 4th level slots, so you're going to want trackick. You could also sub in a Slayer for the same duty, although a Ranger gets an animal companion so they have the edge on mobility and even better tracking, but a Slayer gets a more urban skill set (I'm not sure how Urban Ranger Compares to Slayer TBH, I should look into that).

If you want live capture, there's a good combo that Rogues and Slayers can get that does a lot of non-lethal sneak attack. Use the Menacing Combat Style from Ultimate Intrigue to pick up Shatter Defences at 6th level, grab Enforcer and a Sap to bludgeon your enemies into unconsciousness. Pick up Hurtful (Monster Codex) for a free attack every round! The other Option is to grab Cornugon Smash and Power Attack instead of Enforcer, for a lethal variant.

I also suggest an Inquisitor associated with a Lawful religion/deity aligned with the State, divine casting, better skill set than a cleric, although worse casting. The Justice Inquisition would seem thematically appropriate.

With a Wizard, Slayer/Ranger and Inquisitor, you've got Skills, Primary Combatant and Primary Caster, healing and secondary combatant/caster covered, so you have a bit of freedom here. I'd probably drop in a Bard, for group buffs, party Face, and further casting support and possibly combat support, depending on how you build. Alternatively, you could go throw in, well, almost anything.

That's how I'd do it anyway. It's not the most optimised party (IE, 4 Wizards and a horse to buff), but it has all it's bases covered and each member can support the rest of the party in some way.

As for tactics, they're good at finding their targets. They can scry for the general area, they have social skills and tracking to home in on them. These guys should absolutely be dumping on murderhobos while they're in their rest period. Yeah, it's underhanded and poor sport, but effective and absolutely a thing that oppressive real life governments have done. Hell, the wizard and bard are able to cast Deep Slumber to knock out the one guy currently on watch during the night, and then the rest of the party saunters in to tie them up/execute them.

The other question is, do these guys have PC Wealth By Level, or NPC WBL?

[Elder_Basilisk]

Eh, I'd say that the organization would most likely be Lawful, not necessarily Good.

Seven is a weird level. What do you think about brining that down to level 6 so that you can use E6 builds?

If you're running E6, then bringing it down to 5 or 6 is a good idea.

Level 6:
Cleric 6 (beatstick cleric--only one other stand-up fighter in this group)
Ranger 6 (archer with switch-hitting capability for when PCs get in his face) and a high hp, high damage animal companion.
Paladin 6 (for the good version) or Weaponmaster Fighter 3/Unchained Monk 3 (for the neutral/evil version--even in a LE society, stopping murderhobos doesn't seem like an anti-paladin's gig. The unchained monk levels mean he doesn't get weapon specialization but he does get evasion, BAB of 6, his ki pool for extra attacks, and weapon mastery).
Wizard 6 would be the classic 4th member, though you could easily make substitutions:
Cavalier 1/Bard (arcane duelist) 4/Battle Herald 1 with inspirational boost (since you're allowing 3.5 stuff) for +3/+3 to all his allies as a move action. Give him dazzling display
Magus 6 with rime frostbite cheese. He can still read a scroll of haste but he's a lot less vulnerable than the wizard and can contribute some high DPR
Summoner 6. He can cast haste just like the wizard, but he can also pack an eidolon.
Hunter 6. He can track like the ranger but packs an animal companion

If you felt like being especially nasty, I think you could go with:
Summoner 6, Hunter 6, Cavalier/Bard/Battle Herald, and ranger for your group to stack your haste and inspire courage on a bunch of anti-murder hobos plus a bunch of animal companion/mounts/eidolons.

That said, in the original scenario, I would be tempted to run with a slightly different setup. Rather than four equal level NPCs, I'd trade out several of them for more lower level NPCs. For example:
Cleric 7, Bard 5, Ranger 7, 3x Weapon Master Fighter 3/Samurai 2

That gives you six members plus an animal companion and three mounts to benefit from the bard's inspiration.
To be nastier:
A. make them all follow the cleric's religion.
B. Give them all fate's favored trait.
C. Give the cleric recitation (Woohoo: +4 to attack, saves, and armor class!)
D. give the bard a scroll of haste
E. Make sure the cleric also has the following spells: Mass aid, mass conviction/conviction, mass resist energy, resurgence, and close wounds.
F. Make sure the bard has inspirational boost.
G. Give the fighters two weapon fighting abilities and power attack. Ordinarily, two weapon fighting is not terribly advantageous, but when the party is buffing them with +8 to hit, +3 to damage, a bonus attack, +30 movement, +5 AC, and +4/+5/+4 saves in round 1, you can afford to two weapon fight, power attack (making their attack/damage bonus +4/+7 over their ordinary non-TWF attack).

The party will have a lot of damage output, have good hp, good AC, and excellent saves and the main beatsticks can use Order of the warrior to add +4 to their saves and roll twice and take the better.

EDIT 2: Another possibility.
Lawful societies aren't the only people who would object to murderhoboism. Since a lot of dark ages/medieval/ancient world peoples had to deal with actual murderhoboism, here's one thing they often did:

The barbarian warparty: We can Murderhobo right back.
Half-orc Bard 5 with inspirational boost (thanks 3.5--I wish I could go skald here for theme, but inspire rage is wasted on barbarians, so we'll have a mechanical bard and skald is his social role, not his class)
Half-orc Barbarian 5 x 5. With mad foam rager (thanks 3.5) and superstition (thanks Pathfinder).
Witch 7 with the usual witch stuff and a little bit of healing.

All of them have the ritual blood bonds feat (from 3.5 so they will get bonuses as you attack their allies).

It won't buff quite as high as my previous anti-murder hobo gang, but they've got more hit points, can fight into negatives (ferocity) and defer the hit that would kill them until next round (mad foam rager). Give the bard a scroll of haste to start the fight (before the superstitious barbarians start raging): move action: inspire courage; standard action: haste from the scroll.


-EDIT 1: On the necessity of wizards. Contrary to playground opinion, the wizard is not essential. The cleric can scry (if that's really needed, and it probably isn't. You're not high enough level to teleport (assuming that Paizo developer comments are being ignored and scry/teleport works), so you'll be walking/riding to the location anyway. The ranger can track most murderhobos anyway. The cleric can also cover dispel magic and can deal with invisibility via invisibility purge. The bard can use a scroll to cover haste, can provide glitterdust and heroism and can do a few status removals too. And he can do what the wizard can't: provide inspire courage. (An evangelist cleric can provide inspire courage too but can't use inspirational boost since it isn't on the cleric list in 3.5 and doesn't exist in pathfinder so the total buffing is lower. A cavalier/bard/battle herald can be a beatstick and still provide his inspiration, but for NPCs, you're better off separating the two characters and having a 5th level bard and a 5th level beatstick rather than a 7th level beatstick bard. Even if you take an evangelist cleric rather than a bard, I'd take a summoner over a wizard since the summoner can do most of the wizard's utility stuff, can still haste the party, and brings along a free beatstick in his eidelon.)

[Kurald Galain]

Teamwork feats could be surprisingly useful if you build the team for it. For example, Shake It Off and Tandem Trip.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Teamwork feats could be surprisingly useful if you build the team for it. For example, Shake It Off and Tandem Trip.

Intercept charge is another great one. Nothing like the barbarian saying, "I charge the lead guy" and triggering two immediate action move+attacks. For extra nastiness, have a reach weapon with brace and steadfast boots (3.5).

Another possibility for teamwork feats is to have a cavalier (or 3 if you go with my reduced level beatstick suggestion) in the group. The cavaliers could all have different teamwork feats and then grant the entire party whatever teamwork feat is appropriate for the situation. Volley fire is especially good for making people who aren't normally great with ranged attacks hit reliably.

[Coidzor]

Two phases. Team One focuses on subterfuge and information gathering, posing as quest givers and the like, focusing murderhobos on dissidents, undesirables, or to go outside of the empire. If they can't be suborned or sent away, then they send them on suicide missions to be hunted down by Team Two, who focus on stealth and killing when it's most advantageous to attack.

[kalasulmar]

Two phases. Team One focuses on subterfuge and information gathering, posing as quest givers and the like, focusing murderhobos on dissidents, undesirables, or to go outside of the empire. If they can't be suborned or sent away, then they send them on suicide missions to be hunted down by Team Two, who focus on stealth and killing when it's most advantageous to attack.

This. I think this guy might actually be Nick Fury. If not, he stole his playbook.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sayt
The other question is, do these guys have PC Wealth By Level, or NPC WBL?

They'll have the PC version of WBL, plus a little extra from the imperial exchequer. This is an elite team sponsored by the imperial government, so they can afford the best gear and weapons, plus access to typically rare or obscure magic items.


Originally Posted by Sayt
I also suggest an Inquisitor associated with a Lawful religion/deity aligned with the State, divine casting, better skill set than a cleric, although worse casting. The Justice Inquisition would seem thematically appropriate.

I really like this notion, and I'm leaning towards this individual being the team commander.

I've never built an inquisitor, though, so I'm at a loss on how to develop this concept further. Any suggestions on the build?


Originally Posted by GreyBlack
Third, you're going to want a Templar-esque slayer. Something like an Occult Slayer. Personally, I would go with a Paladin/Occult Slayer combo.

This is another concept that grabs me--but again, I don't have any experience building this sort of character. Any ideas on the details?


Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
Teamwork feats could be surprisingly useful if you build the team for it. For example, Shake It Off and Tandem Trip.

Shake It Off seems a little too situational, but Tandem Trip would be great on a couple of these guys at least.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Intercept charge is another great one. Nothing like the barbarian saying, "I charge the lead guy" and triggering two immediate action move+attacks.

Things like this remind me just how new to Pathfinder I really am. This sounds like a great option, just not quite sure how it works.


Originally Posted by Coidzor
Team One focuses on subterfuge and information gathering, posing as quest givers and the like, focusing murderhobos on dissidents, undesirables, or to go outside of the empire.

This would be handled by the imperial intelligence network, at least for the information-gathering aspect.

As for sending wayward parties after dissidents or other enemies…I'm not sure if an already undisciplined, completely off-the-rails party is the best tool for precision maintenance of a stable social order. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

This would be handled by the imperial intelligence network, at least for the information-gathering aspect.

As for sending wayward parties after dissidents or other enemies…I'm not sure if an already undisciplined, completely off-the-rails party is the best tool for precision maintenance of a stable social order. :smalltongue:

Then they'll still want to have some form of liaison or auxillary from the intelligence network providing support and intelligence as they approach the situation. They may also find it best to have individuals who are known questgivers or wossname and can more openly keep tabs on them that aren't connected directly to the hit taken out on them in case they manage to best the Inquisitorial Hit Squad.

Certain problems are best handled with resources that are inherently expendable. Like, say, there's some orcs preparing to form a warband and conquer half of a province. Send a whole bunch of murderhobos at the various levels of leadership and throw it into disarray while your legions mop up the remnants with a minimum of expense and soldiers lost and the murderhobos that survive get taken out by Agents of the Imperial Inquisition or sent on a wild goose chase deep into the uncontrolled orc badlands.

Showing the people what sort of people are made outside of Imperial Order and how they behave by having a bunch of misled murderhobos murderhobo a bunch of beloved but secretly treasonous town elders because they thought they were cultists, only to have those murderhobos laid low by Holy Ordos of the Imperial Inquisition can have double benefits.

Especially if the Empire doesn't care much about collateral damage or innocents dying so long as it comes out ahead and the survivors are brought more firmly into the fold.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I really like this notion, and I'm leaning towards this individual being the team commander.

I've never built an inquisitor, though, so I'm at a loss on how to develop this concept further. Any suggestions on the build?

Build is going to vary a lot depending upon the rest of the team.

In combat, Inquisitor is best used as a melee or ranged combatant. They have spellcasting but it's most useful for self-buff and utility, rather than offense.

If we're starting with 7th level as a base and 20 point buy, the melee focused inquisitor is probably going to look something like: Str 18 (+1=19), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8. Destruction (rage subdomain) is a strong choice for combat or conversion inquisition to do social skills with an 8 charisma and without spending traits. (I'm fond of the persistence inquisition for step up, a limited speed boost, and a 1/day lay on hands with condition removal as well). Otherwise, a trait to improve intimidate is a good choice. Default feats would be something like 1. Weapon focus, 3. Power attack, 5. Improved Initiative, 7. Cornugon Smash. Precise Strike and outflank are decent choices for teamwork feats as is intercept charge. Fates' favored is almost a mandatory trait (which makes sacred tattoo half-orc almost a mandatory choice as well).

Spells will depend upon whether or not you have a cleric in the group. Divine Favor is pretty much mandatory, bless is good if you don't have a cleric in the group.

Equipment is probably an agile breastplate, a composite longbow, a longspear, and your choice of sidearm or deity's favored weapon. A lot of people are fond of two handed weapons. I like the flexibility of a one-handed weapon+buckler but it does a little less damage.


On the other hand, if you're an archer, your stats are probably closer to: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Precise Shot (3), Rapid Shot (5), Deadly Aim (7) with Improved Initiative if Human. Skills will be similar, as will spells, but you probably go with a mithral agile breastplate, composite longbow, buckler, and sidearm (probably one-handed). For teamwork feats, you may pick escape route, volley fire, lookout, etc.

Either way, your actions are probably going to be something like: round 1: cast divine favor, activate judgment, move. Round 2: activate bane, full attack, but the melee version has more of a swift action bottleneck if you use Intercept Charge to get into position for a full attack.

You can also switch hit though that is less useful for an NPC who probably only has to deal with one tactical situation in play. That would call for a stat array with 16/16, 16/14, or 18/14. Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Rapid Shot (3), Power Attack (5), Quickdraw (7 or use a 3.5 item to get it with the weapon you're going to use), human: Improved Initiative, Deadly Aim, or Precise Shot.

[Yahzi]

It occurred to me that a well-organized imperial state, with a large population and resource base, would want to keep a firm lid on any murderhoboing in its territory
In my world, commoners grant XP when they die. This means the local Baron gets a lot of XP over the years. This means he is high level.

When you make XP = 5 gp (as the DMG does), rich = powerful, and now you don't need SWAT teams, because your rulers are legitimate bad-asses in their own right. Which is how a feudal system is supposed to work.

Also, consider how your players are going to feel when you send a specialized, over-powered team designed precisely to destroy them. Is that fun? If you don't want them pushing around the local baron, wouldn't it be more fun if the baron were a boss mob? And if they are still too strong, then the baron goes to his liege, and now you have a king to deal with. Which all seems more satisfying to me than being ganked by nameless custom-defined professionals who exist solely to kill the player's characters.

[Caedes]

Seems like a lot of people are suggesting to send Murder Hobos after Murder Hobos.

How, about shifting away from murdering your jolly care free band of adventurers and instead focus on capture? Then you can use the occasion they finally get caught as a plot hook and not a TPK.

And in a Lawful scenario you can even have them RP out going through court proceedings and the like. For some reason assigning a group of Murder Hobos community service seems a riot...

[Elder_Basilisk]

In my world, commoners grant XP when they die. This means the local Baron gets a lot of XP over the years. This means he is high level.

When you make XP = 5 gp (as the DMG does), rich = powerful, and now you don't need SWAT teams, because your rulers are legitimate bad-asses in their own right. Which is how a feudal system is supposed to work.

Also, consider how your players are going to feel when you send a specialized, over-powered team designed precisely to destroy them. Is that fun? If you don't want them pushing around the local baron, wouldn't it be more fun if the baron were a boss mob? And if they are still too strong, then the baron goes to his liege, and now you have a king to deal with. Which all seems more satisfying to me than being ganked by nameless custom-defined professionals who exist solely to kill the player's characters.

That is a point, but here are a few other considerations:

1. It sounds like the original poster wants a imperial bureaucratic state rather than a feudal society. In a bureaucratic state, it's not the mayor or the imperial governor who is awesome--it's their legion or their SWAT team who are awesome. So setting has to play into it.

2. Single monster/NPC encounters are terrible. The mechanics we are discussing are can and should be refluffed to the baron/bishop/inquisitor and his sword-thains/guards/retinue in a feudal setting. They won't all be the same, but there's a lot of mix and match that can be done in my formula while maintaining effectiveness. So you want a high level cavalier to be the leader of the group? Make him the battle herald beatstick I mentioned and have your cleric be lower level and use a scroll for recitation. Is the local society magical (Halruaa in FR, for example), replace the beatsticks with magi, settle on a bard or witch for healing, and have a wizard along to drop black tentacles on PCs. Is it an orc tribe or a group of vikings? The barbarian heavy group I suggested in my edit is appropriate. Maybe drop two 5th level barbarians for a 7th level barbarian so that you have a high level barbarian leader for the group.

The essential parts of the killsquad are:

A. Good tracking and information gathering ability. If you can't find the murderhobos, you can't stop them.

A ranger, slayer, or inquisitor is good at the tracking bit and inquisitors, paladins, bards, sorcerers, rogues, and most other classes (with a little bit more work) can be good at the information gathering bit. If you are looking for a low level version, a couple tracking dogs can enable a killsquad to track without needing a ranger.

At higher levels than the ones discussed where the murderhobos might teleport, windwalk, or shadowwalk, scrying, divination, and clairvoyance becomes more important.

B. Synergy. Especially if this is an encounter designed for the PCs to beat, you probably have a bunch of lower level NPCs and with less wealth. 1 for 1, they are quite possibly weaker than the murderhobos. So how to they beat them? They have to work together to make each other better.

Bards, order of the lion cavaliers, clerics with prayer (or especially recitation), and casters with haste/righteous wrath of the faithful/blessings of fervor/mass curse of impending blades/flame arrow/greater dispel magic/magic circle vs evil/mass conviction, mass aid, mass resist energy, teamwork feats, PHB II Tribal feats, etc are all important for this.

C. Weak links are ok as long as their contribution to the party persists after they are gone. For example, you may have a low level bard with inspirational boost. If the murderhobos recognize him as a threat, they will probably drop him in round 2. If his inspiration stops at that point, that's bad, but if he had lingering performance, by giving everyone his +2/+2 for 4 rounds, he's earned his place in the encounter even if that's all he did. A 5th level version with inspirational boost, can drop +3/+3 in round 1 and haste the party with his standard action. If that's all he does, he's still made a big contribution, but you'll probably get at least a second round out of him.

D. Consumables are your friend. A scroll of haste is relatively inexpensive and enables you to get wizard level buffing out of a bard. If you don't have an arcane caster, a scroll of righteous wrath of the faithful or blessings of fervor can do the same thing. This can be cheesy if taken too far--a bunch initiative maxing maguses or wizards with scrolls of ice storm, all of which they use in the first round is a unfair and more importantly unfun encounter (and from a simulationist standpoint, they probably won't want to/can't afford to blow 2800-5600gp (4-8 scrolls) to waste every group of murderhobos). But 375-1000gp for a tough group of murderhobos? That's a lot more practical.



---EDIT to address the capture post--
Depending on the murderhobos in question, capture, then geasing them to go kill the orcs of Belzen, might be a good idea. (Standard adventurer murderhobos--probably OK; a roving band of Erythnulite mass murderers? Heck no. Put them down hard, burn the bodies, and make sure the ashes can't rise as undead).

So what can you do to capture?
A. Rime Frostbite magi are pretty good at capture without any special training or modification.
B. Nonlethal substitution feats for direct damage wizards are pretty good at it.
C. The blade of mercy trait makes Saranraeite anti-murderhobo squads pretty good at capturing without much more investment. (So that's two traits: Fate's favored and blade of mercy--I think Saranrae's cleric led squad is winning the "best anti-murderhobo" sweepstakes.)
D. The bludgeoner and enforcer feats (or just saps with enforcer or merciful weapons with enforcer or frostbite with enforcer) can make a pretty effective intimidate build and building a whole party together offers some rather nice synergy. (Hurtful, shatter defenses, etc and cause fear or fear (even a successful save results in shaken for one round which will upgrade to frightened if the target was already shaken--no save, split the murderhobo encounter)).
E. When heavily buffed, rogues with saps can be pretty effective at capturing people.
F. If they can hit and do damage, monks are also very good at non-lethal damage. If you buff them appropriately (recitation and bardsong do wonders), they should be able to hit and do damage.
G. With sufficient reputation, "surrender or die" can also work. It's what people generally do in the real world.

[SethoMarkus]

I have two things to say on this matter.

The first being that, similar to Coidzor's post about two phases, the actual locating of the murdohobos shouldn't be handled by the "striker team", rather there should be some team at the home base dedicated to scrying and divination.

The second being that the best way to keep surveillance on wandering adventurers in a kingdom is to issue mandatory "Adventuring Licenses". This both informs the potential murdohobos that there are rules and regulations they need to follow (within the Kingdom), in addition to giving the adventurers a physical item to carry around that the divination team to focus in on.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
It sounds like the original poster wants a imperial bureaucratic state rather than a feudal society. In a bureaucratic state, it's not the mayor or the imperial governor who is awesome--it's their legion or their SWAT team who are awesome. So setting has to play into it.

Exactly this.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Build is going to vary a lot depending upon the rest of the team.

Excellent details on build and gear, thank you--exactly what I was looking for.

Would you be willing to do the same for the paladin/occult slayer? Because your comments so far have been outstanding.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
You can also switch hit though that is less useful for an NPC who probably only has to deal with one tactical situation in play.

Well, the idea behind the team is that they should be strong and adaptable enough to handle hostile parties of varying composition. This week the team might be sent after a mainly martial party with an archer cleric; next week it might be rangers and druids with animal companions; after that it might be a couple of low-level wizards with BSF henchmen. The imperial team (call them Agents of A.E.G.I.S.) will need to neutralize a whole spectrum of small wayward groups, so they'll need to be nimble and tactically flexible.


Originally Posted by Caedes
How, about shifting away from murdering your jolly care free band of adventurers and instead focus on capture? Then you can use the occasion they finally get caught as a plot hook and not a TPK.

Very much so, indeed.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
So what can you do to capture?

Evidently quite a lot, judging by the waterfall of options you've given me. Very much appreciated. Now I want one of everything. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
With sufficient reputation, "surrender or die" can also work. It's what people generally do in the real world.

Definitely this. The Agents of A.E.G.I.S. will always be working to maintain their reputation as the people who roll in, deal with the situation and make the troublemakers disappear.


Originally Posted by SethoMarkus
…the best way to keep surveillance on wandering adventurers in a kingdom is to issue mandatory "Adventuring Licenses". This both informs the potential murdohobos that there are rules and regulations they need to follow (within the Kingdom), in addition to giving the adventurers a physical item to carry around that the divination team to focus in on.

Definitely a good idea, and worth considering.

The problem is that the out-of-control parties would either not bother to get the license, or would try to falsify their own to avoid the fees and other liabilities. The real trick is determining if a party has a license at all--it's not something your average border guard can ask for without being preemptively ganked.

[Malroth]

I'd have to reccomend a Witch for this party, With their 4ths they're great at locating and infiltrating a group and disabling enemies at range especially since their Hex abilities have neither verbal or somantic components.

[SethoMarkus]

Definitely a good idea, and worth considering.

The problem is that the out-of-control parties would either not bother to get the license, or would try to falsify their own to avoid the fees and other liabilities. The real trick is determining if a party has a license at all--it's not something your average border guard can ask for without being preemptively ganked.

I was assuming that the A.E.G.I.S. agents would be going after NPC as well as PC groups. In any case, they could use other means of scrying and information gathering in addition to this, or make a natinol identification card and/or passports that all residents and visitors in the country need to carry. Sure, people could sneak in illegally or forge said documents, but they'd face some didficulty doing so, at least.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Would you be willing to do the same for the paladin/occult slayer? Because your comments so far have been outstanding.


Paladin/occult slayer is a Pathfinder/3.5 mix. Occult slayers get a saving throw bonus against magic and a 1/day immediate action spell turning. It's a good choice for going against spellcasters, but I'm not sure it would be my choice. I think I'd go for Paladin/Unchained Monk/Pious Templar instead. Your saves are pretty good and the combination of mettle and evasion are likely to be at least as useful as spell turning. (Spell turning is useful against targeted spells that don't have touch attacks--charm person, dominate person, magic missile, phantasmal killer, hold person, etc but does nothing against fireball, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, etc.).

Build would be something like: Str 16 (including racial--17 with +1 at 4th level), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14. The stats are for a human, but Strength+Charisma Aasimar (angelkin, I think) would also be a good choice here as well.

Build: Paladin 4 (oath of vengeance)/Unchained Monk 2/Pious Templar 1
Feats: 1. Weapon Focus: Deity's favored weapon. 3. Power Attack, 4. (Monk bonus: Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist); 5. True Believer, Monk Bonus: Dodge or Combat Reflexes; 7. Open. (Note, if human, you could take Power Attack at level 1, True Believer at level 3, Dodge and Mobility at level 5 and pick up Elusive Target at level 7. If you are going for the unarmored version, you probably take Crusader's Flurry here).
Equipment: The basic build works with a lot of different equipment types. You'll probably want a mithral breastplate but if you have a wizard who can give you Improved Mage Armor, you might just take another level of monk for the ki pool and, take crusader's flurry, and work with no armor. If you go the armor route, you can run with a weapon and shield or a two-handed weapon depending upon how highly you prioritize defense. You'll definitely want a headband of Charisma and a belt of Strength and Dex.

The advantage of the character is that he weighs in with +13/+8/+8 saves (+4/+1/+4 pal, +3/+3/+0 unchained monk, +2/+0/+2 Pious Templar, +2 from divine grace, and with +2 from True Believer on one important save/day) before resistance bonuses or buffs and can ignore any spell with Fort or Will partial or Reflex half if he succeeds on the save (which he usually will). He'll also have full base attack, 2 smite evils per day (plus additional from lay on hands conversion), and a pretty good grapple attack if he wants to shut down a mage or to take someone alive.

If you went for the unarmored version, he can flurry for +7/+7/+2 (plus strength, weapon focus, magic weapon, etc) base attacks with his deity's favored weapon which will make that smite damage and any bonus damage stack up quickly--and if he wants to take someone alive but isn't grappling, he can use unarmed strikes for non-lethal damage and can toss out stunning fists too though they'll have a very low DC and won't usually do anything.

Looking at it, I'd probably go for the angel-kin unarmored crusader's flurry monster if I knew there were always going to be a wizard on hand with greater mage armor. If I had to make do with regular mage armor (still requires a wizard) or had to live with 1 hour duration charges off a mage armor wand, I'd go human a mithral breastplate and elusive target. Not as much offensive power, but acceptable defenses.

For an occult slayer, though Paladin 5/Occult Slayer 2 works. Str 18 (19 with lvl 4 stat bump), Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 14. Saves are +10/+4/+9 with an additional +1 against spells, and the character can wear fullplate, wield a two-handed sword, and do spell turning 1/day. Feats would be Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and whatever other one (or two if human) feats you like. He has the same two smite evils per day as the other guy, has a divine bond for a mount or magic weapon and +1d6 damage from his weapon against spellcasters.

[Coidzor]

The problem is that the out-of-control parties would either not bother to get the license, or would try to falsify their own to avoid the fees and other liabilities. The real trick is determining if a party has a license at all--it's not something your average border guard can ask for without being preemptively ganked.

Then it is a glorious death warning the Empire of an invading force. Much the same as dying while fighting against a horde of orcs to give the signal towers or mages enough time to alert the capital of the incursion into their borders, just with fewer attackers.

And border checkpoints would need to have enough forces to discourage stupidity by lower level groups and have people smart enough to recognize high level ones and send word to the highest levels that deal with rampaging dragons and liches and such.

[Malroth]

Every town has a wizard/witch/Sorcorer 1 who knows Arcane Mark who works for the government who works as a notary for all offical documents issued in that town, all adventurers/bodyguards/merchants/pilgrims or any other travelers MUST carry validated paperwork marked by one of the spells from the list of authorised notaries. All patrols contain at least one person capable of casting detect magic and who carries a list of the arcane marks authorized for such use in the empire. Forgery of such marks should be punishable with death and traveling without paperwork at all should carry a stiff prison sentance.

[Elder_Basilisk]

The problem is that the out-of-control parties would either not bother to get the license, or would try to falsify their own to avoid the fees and other liabilities. The real trick is determining if a party has a license at all--it's not something your average border guard can ask for without being preemptively ganked.

I think you may be underestimating the usefulness of the adventurer's license to the imperial bureaucracy.

If the out of control party is killing stuff without a license, the bureaucracy gains the ability to eliminate or conscript them for adventuring without a valid license (easy to prove) without having to tie them to any particular crime in order to prove that they are out of control.

Now, sure the average individual border guard might be pre-emptively ganked if they ask for a license from a group of level 6 murderhobos. But it it's a first, second, or even third level group of murderhobos, they might think twice about challenging the garrison at most border crossings. If the border is an established checkpoint, you'll have a troop of soldiers there. If it's not an established checkpoint, your guard is probably a full patrol--strong enough to stand off a small band of orcs, ogres, vikings, or whatever you are patrolling for. Either way, pre-emptively ganking the border guard is going to be a risky endeavor for a lot of murderhobo groups and if they do--well, you detected the murderhobos before they massacre a whole town, or you will as soon as the patrol doesn't check back in.

Falsified licenses might be a problem, but you can take precautions. For example, every license might need to be signed by the governor and notarized by his assistant who will add an arcane mark. And depending upon the number of licensed adventuring companies, the guards might even know the names of all the licensed companies. If there are too many for most guards to be familiar with them by name, there would still probably be an official list distributed to major checkpoints and garrisons on a regular basis.


11 Coldeven, CY 594. We encountered a group of masterless ruffians who held themselves out to be the Company of the Bright Sun, royally licensed company 387 supposedly registered in Rel Mord in Wealsun, 593. Their license appeared to be in order, but upon checking with the list of adventuring companies distributed 1 Fireseek, 594, we were unable to locate any company 387. Since their charter predates our list by several months and therefore should be included if it were genuine, we detained them for questioning and they eventually confessed to obtaining a forged license.

The key to mitigating the risk of forged documentation would be to 1. make the documentation at least moderately difficult to forge (requiring a specific signature and notarization every guard could recognize and a little bit of magic to reduce the pool of people able to forge it) and then preferably add an ability for real-time authentication (or at least for the guard to file a report so that someone can find out about the falsification in a week and send the AEGIS squad to track down the offenders). Maybe the guards are also instructed to collect a fingernail clipping or several hairs from each party member whenever referring a new charter for authentication--that way the central office has a nice focus to scry them out if it turns out the license was falsified or if the adventuring company goes bad.

That way, even if the forgery fools the guards at the checkpoint, you have alerted the central office to an unlicensed adventurer (and presumed murderhobo) problem.

Now, adventurers might forge another company's license, but that could be mitigated by including a membership roster and description in the periodic log and impersonating another adventuring company would necessarily draw the second adventuring company into the mix if they got word of it. If you don't want Aegis squads after you, you probably don't want another group of licensed adventurers with full legal authority to murderhobo you after you either. Aegis will probably give you a chance to surrender. The actual Lightning Lords? Not so much.

[Bucky]

Murderhobos are overwhelmingly small and medium bipeds. These ones are also too low level to have easy access to Freedom of Movement. That means they're vulnerable to grapples and triplocks, so even low level guards can be trained to deal with them. And the elite unit would do well to include a grappler or grappler-summoner.

[Ikitavi]

I would go with a small group.

A ranger tracker, or perhaps a druid that can shapechange into a tracking animal
A wizard/sorcerer with a familiar that can be used to send messages
Both high mobility, mounted. Basically an elite group that can track the players and bring in large groups of conventionally armed types.

The idea is that the high level types will avoid the press of combat because they are high talent mercenaries, or perhaps an aristocracy that believes in other people do the fighting.

Give the wizard extended range message spells for a level 3 slot, ~1200 foot range.

The idea should be that a high level group is a pretty expensive resource, so the counter for it should be something involving fewer high levels, but more mundane resources.

One of the nastier things they could do is go to the town jail, and authorize pardons for the felons if they, collectively, return with the party's heads. Think of all the assassination attempts! And from the point of view of the law and order types, no great loss if the party slaughters the felons.

The whole gambit would force the party to stay on the move, and be very careful on entering a town to disguise themselves and their identities. Which means not brandishing weapons and armor at every opportunity.

[Malroth]

I would go with a small group.


One of the nastier things they could do is go to the town jail, and authorize pardons for the felons if they, collectively, return with the party's heads. Think of all the assassination attempts! And from the point of view of the law and order types, no great loss if the party slaughters the felons.

The whole gambit would force the party to stay on the move, and be very careful on entering a town to disguise themselves and their identities. Which means not brandishing weapons and armor at every opportunity.

Also would make for a great origin of the PC's that drives the point that this behavior isn't tolerated, the PC's are felons tracking down a party that killed a guard in Backwatersville, and now there's scrying, spying, logistics and tracking being done for the party's benefit.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sayt
If you want live capture, there's a good combo that Rogues and Slayers can get that does a lot of non-lethal sneak attack. Use the Menacing Combat Style from Ultimate Intrigue to pick up Shatter Defences at 6th level, grab Enforcer and a Sap to bludgeon your enemies into unconsciousness. Pick up Hurtful (Monster Codex) for a free attack every round!


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
A ranger, slayer, or inquisitor is good at the tracking bit….

I meant to follow up on these comments about slayers, since I like the idea of including that class for tracking. But I've never used an inquisitor or a slayer before, so I don't have a sense for how much functional overlap there is between the two.

I'm thinking of a melee-focused inquisitor, so that would free up the slayer to go ranged. But that seems incompatible with Sayt's approach for a nonlethal/subdual build, which I really like, so I'm also thinking about a couple of lower-level guys for the ranged support.


Originally Posted by Elder_Basilisk
Cleric 7, Bard 5, Ranger 7, 3x Weapon Master Fighter 3/Samurai 2

…for instance, Weapon Master Fighters devoted to ranged combat. Would they complement a melee slayer?

Stepping back a bit, I really like the concepts for inquisitor and paladin/occult slayer, and I'd like to include a slayer for the nonlethal/subdual aspect. So I'm wondering where to fit in the ranged component of the squad.

[Bohandas]

I like this idea!

Okay first and foremost, determine the level of magic in the area. You'll likely want to make this something of a religious order, likely Good, because it seems like the kind of thing a Good organization would do.

Sounds like even more of a Lawful thing than a Good thing. The Nine Hells would definitely have an agency like this.

[Elder_Basilisk]

I meant to follow up on these comments about slayers, since I like the idea of including that class for tracking. But I've never used an inquisitor or a slayer before, so I don't have a sense for how much functional overlap there is between the two.

Slayer: in combat bowman or melee sneak attacker; out of combat: track, rogue/ranger stuff
Inquisitor: in combat bowman or melee attacker, backup divine caster, intimidamancer; out of combat: track, rogue/ranger/cleric stuff

They both fill the same roles in and out of combat, so I probably wouldn't have both in the same group. Instead, I would probably choose Inquisitor, slayer, or ranger to fill the appropriate role based on flavor--depending upon whether I wanted a religious group, a woodsy group, or a hard-boiled martial group.


I'm thinking of a melee-focused inquisitor, so that would free up the slayer to go ranged. But that seems incompatible with Sayt's approach for a nonlethal/subdual build, which I really like, so I'm also thinking about a couple of lower-level guys for the ranged support.

…for instance, Weapon Master Fighters devoted to ranged combat. Would they complement a melee slayer?

Stepping back a bit, I really like the concepts for inquisitor and paladin/occult slayer, and I'd like to include a slayer for the nonlethal/subdual aspect. So I'm wondering where to fit in the ranged component of the squad.

I'd take a step back and divide up the groups a bit further. There are enough nifty concepts, you won't be able to fit everything in one band. For example:

The Saranraeite Inquisition:
Clr 7, ranged Bard 5, ranged Inquisitor 7, melee Weapon Master fighter 3/Samurai 2 x3 (Could also be paladin 3/Unchained monk 2s to add grappling smites, and evasion to the group's repertoire and keep up the religious theme).
Schtick: Super-buffing: Recitation+fate's favored+inspirationally boosted bardsong+haste.
Non-lethal: They all have the fate's favored and blade of mercy traits so they can do nonlethal damage with their scimitars at no penalty.

The Hard bitten martials with a mage to back them up:
Wiz 5, Cavalier (order of the cockatrice) 2/Bard (arcane duelist) 4/Battle Herald 1 (7), melee Slayer 7, ranged Weapon Master fighter 3/Unchained Rogue 2 x3
Schtick: Buff and Debuff, Fear. Haste+Mass curse of impending blades (3.5)+Inspirationally boosted bardsong+slow on the party. Mass intimidate via blistering invective and/or dazzling display. Intimidate plus cause fear/scare/fear (from a scroll) for no-save frightened condition; Switch Hitting.
Non-lethal: Shatter defenses, hurtful, and enforcer let the slayer dish out a nonlethal beatdown with his pair of saps. The Battle herald takes the bludgeoner feat and he can lay the nonlethal smackdown with his Lucern hammer or his backup warhammer. If needed, the three archers can use saps for non-lethal damage (and between rogue finesse and sneak attack, they're actually pretty good at it).
Switch Hitting: All of the characters except the wizard can be effective in melee or at range (even the bard has spells and standard action dazzling display).
Weakness: The party's only healer is a secondary healer at best (the battle herald) and his actions are generally better spent on other things. The weapon masters will need to count on evasion to keep their damage count low and the battle herald might pack maxed UMD ranks to have a scroll of empowered insignia of healing, cure critical wounds, or something similar for emergencies.

Battle herald feats: 1. Combat Reflexes, Bludgeoner, Intercept Charge 2. Dazzling display (bonus), 3. Lingering Performance, arcane strike (bonus) 5. Power Attack, 6. Combat Casting (bonus), 7. Hurtful

[Ikitavi]

Also would make for a great origin of the PC's that drives the point that this behavior isn't tolerated, the PC's are felons tracking down a party that killed a guard in Backwatersville, and now there's scrying, spying, logistics and tracking being done for the party's benefit.

That brings up, how is the lawful nasty empire controlling its bounty hunters?

The classic would be explody magically locked collars. Glyphs of nastiness, or symbols for the higher level types. The party may get the ability to remove or at least disarm the one shot magic... but the collars also serve as badges of rank. Sort of a Jannisaries thing, where the highest ranking soldiers are essentially slaves to the Empire.

[Ortesk]

So level 7, and there job is to hunt and kill any rampaging powerful people? So kind of like a comic hero, just with more blood and guts?

The gear should be top of the line. Deck them out with PC gold, and maybe even double it. They would be funded by some organization, and they are hunting class leveled people. Which means they get pretty good gear.

For builds? I would highly optimize them. If they are pretty generic, why are they a threat? what makes them unique? Maybe in your world, they are the first to think of some pretty amazing combo (like a barb 1/ Warblade 5/Frenzied beserker 6 who has wrathful healing on his greatsword and is built to charge) followed by a Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantrix working his way to IoTSV (he focuses in handling other spellcasters), who can buff the big burly meat shield. Next one can be a healer 5/Healing hand of Mikasha 2 (can heal enough to be a headache, toss on vow of peace if you want them to bring people in alive. Which also means fort save or your sharp weapons go poof) last one you need would be another wizard. Make this one a summoner/Battle field controller. Use cheesy spells, play God.

These guys should be dripping with cheese sauce, they should be so bad that a lactose intolerant NPC gets sick from being around them. There is a reason they are feared.

[Vogie]

That brings up, how is the lawful nasty empire controlling its bounty hunters?

The classic would be explody magically locked collars. Glyphs of nastiness, or symbols for the higher level types. The party may get the ability to remove or at least disarm the one shot magic... but the collars also serve as badges of rank. Sort of a Jannisaries thing, where the highest ranking soldiers are essentially slaves to the Empire.


It really depends on the fluff.

If they're leaning towards variations of clerics worshipping the same deity (or pantheon), they won't need any additional "control"... they'd just be a government sanctioned witch hunt a la (no one expects) the Spanish Inquisition.

If they're part of the system of government, tasked with doing this as their job, they could be part of the bureaucracy. This could be a local thing, such as Chicago's "Special Investigations" seen in the Dresden Universe, or a countrywide thing, such as the Military-equipped Stargate teams from the eponymous movies and shows, or a self-driven division of the FBI seen in "The Blacklist" or "Blindspot".

If they're really a band of ragamuffins pressed into service, since we're using pathfinder, have them all equipped with Dungeon Rings. The "Jailer", their boss, can gain their status and scry them at all times, and if you build the wizard right, can obliterate them from afar if they get out of line. This actually would be the most interesting to me, story-wise, as then you can have the dynamic of Murderhobos trying to save the people forced to capture/kill them.

[Coidzor]

Given that they're Murderhobos, probably just gonna gun for the wizard and get the master ring.