Intelligent Warrior

[Bahamut7]

I am relatively new to 3.x (a few campaigns so far) so I figured coming here was the best route. My DMs (they alternate) typically allow everything when making characters. Anything banned is stated before character sheets are even touched.

I am working on a character that I would like ready for the next campaign and I am really digging the concept that I came up with. As the title suggests, this is a character that has latent magic potential, fully understands it, but cannot for the life of him use magic. Over the course of the campaign, I wanted the character to gradually tap into the potential and infuse magic into his attacks. He is a Silverbrow Human.

On the back end of the character I was envisioning Duskblade with their Arcane Channeling. The front end is where I am dealing with too many potentials. Hopefully you guys can help find a decent path. Since my DMs typically start at level 3 or 5, I want to plan for any level just in case, but want to stick with Unarmed Swordsage at level 5.

A level of Shadow Sun Ninja is on my list of wants, which I would most likely take before Duskblade.

I intend to pickup Shadow Blade and Sun School at some point. Sun School will allow me to eventually use all 3 Shadow Hand teleports for a fun combo.

The first 4 levels are where I am really stuck as I have looked at many different options. Psychic Warrior, Monk, Rogue, Sneak Attack Fighter, and 3 levels in Swashbuckler. Obviously, however the DM rules unarmed swordsage (everything it gets and so on) can change things slightly, but I would like a nice foundation to work with. I am also trying to throw in different static boosters to increase my minimum damage and AC. Kung-Fu Genius Feat will most likely be used depending on any monk levels or how unarmed swordsage is ruled.

Highlights:

Duskblade at higher levels
Unarmed Swordsage for maybe 4 or more levels
Shadow Sun Ninja (at least 1 level)
Sun School feat
Trying to maintain a high static bonus to damage


My Questions are:

Is 3 levels of Swashbuckler worth the Insightful Strike class feature?
Should I pursue Daring Outlaw to add some Sneak Attack Damage with Rogue or Sneak Attack Fighter?
Would the level in Monk be worth the Flurry of Blows, as Sun School requires it?
Psychic Warrior? This is one I just found, so I am still unsure if I want to dabble in it.



Any suggestions or different options I haven't mention I am open to. I want the character to be able to hold their own, not so much super high defenses, but not defenses that the commoners are laughing at.

The stat array I have through a 32 point buy is 12, 16, 10, 16, 14, 8

Almost forgot, magic items can be acquired over time within reason so any suggestions on unusual ones that would be good, I would love to know about and the source book as well (I am slowly acquiring all the source books).

Thanks for any input!

[Troacctid]

My Questions are:

Is 3 levels of Swashbuckler worth the Insightful Strike class feature?
Should I pursue Daring Outlaw to add some Sneak Attack Damage with Rogue or Sneak Attack Fighter?
Would the level in Monk be worth the Flurry of Blows, as Sun School requires it?
Psychic Warrior? This is one I just found, so I am still unsure if I want to dabble in it.


1. No, it's a trap. It doesn't come until 3rd level and the first two levels offer stone nothing except for BAB. The damage bonus doesn't even apply to the best weapons, which is insult to injury. In most cases you would be better off taking a level adjustment, which is saying something.
2. No, Swashbuckler is bad, as previously mentioned.
3. Maybe. Monk is sometimes worth it on some builds. Often if you take 1 level, it becomes worth taking the 2nd, because the Invisible Fist variant is quite good and you actually get a BAB for level 2. There are reasonable tradeoffs involved, though, so while it's viable, it's definitely optional. If you're going Shadow Sun Ninja, it's probably decent.
4. Psychic Warrior is a good class overall, but unless you invest a lot into it, it tends to underperform relative to Tome of Battle classes, because it uses daily resources to do roughly the same thing that initiators can do at will. At higher levels it can get quite good, due to the way psionics work, but as a multiclass character, it will be hard for you to get to the point where you wouldn't rather just have more levels in Swordsage or Warblade.

Duskblade goes down in value if you go into it late because the damage won't be level-appropriate. You might be better off finding a prestige class with spellcasting (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit?usp=sharing) instead, because a prestige class will be balanced with an eye towards higher levels. In theory, anyway.

[Jeff the Green]

prestige class with spellcasting (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU)

That seems to be private.

[Troacctid]

That seems to be private.

Should be fixed now.

[mabriss lethe]

My thought would be something like Warblade/suel arcanamach.

[Yogibear41]

You should have a look at the Arbiter class from the 3rd party pathfinder book, Thunderscape: the World of Aden. Its got some pretty great synergy bonuses with Intelligence.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can also try War Mind, which is wisdom-based, and offers psychic warrior power progression at a faster rate, plus some nifty abilities (hit two adjacent squares with each melee attack!).

[Bahamut7]

Thank you everyone for the responses. The information has been helpful so far.

The War Mind is an interesting option as I could see a Sonic Boom move from Guile with an unarmed character. That Chain of overwhelming force...that would be a nice trump card.

The only reason I am not going Warblade is that I like the 2 unique schools for Swordsage and I want too try the unarmed variant.

Would duskblade be better at lower levels if at all?

Edit: Just reread the higher level Duskblade spells, If the strength of the spells were 1:1 per caster levels, I could see using it. Shame the arcane channeling was definitely thematic.

[Deox]

Factotum / Warblade seems like a good fit here due to the synergy.

You could also pick up Martial Study / Martial Stance for extra maneuvers for schools you don't initially have.

[Bahamut7]

Factotum / Warblade seems like a good fit here due to the synergy.

You could also pick up Martial Study / Martial Stance for extra maneuvers for schools you don't initially have.

I could, except that the Shadow Sun Ninja requires setting sun and shadow hand maneuvers which would make warblade more feat intensive. I will reexamine the Factotum though.

[Deox]

I could, except that the Shadow Sun Ninja requires setting sun and shadow hand maneuvers which would make warblade more feat intensive. I will reexamine the Factotum though.

Requirements for SSN can be a little tricky, but not too hard to manage.
The real component to acknowledge is knowing a 2nd level Setting Sun or Shadow Hand Maneuver, one Setting Sun maneuver (of any level), and one Shadow Hand maneuver (of any level).

IIRC, stances count as maneuvers for meeting prerequisites.

If your DM is amenable, then a magic item to grant access to a normally forbidden school could help. This would then let your Martial Study / Stance be used to snag something interesting and fitting.

Factotum is suggested to simulate the latent spell casting ability. Warblade fits with Factotum like chocolate and peanut butter.

[Bahamut7]

So I have refined my character idea a lot thanks to the responses on this thread and have something close to the concept. There is one question that seems to be uncertain though.

The feat Monastic Training. Does this give me everything from taking a level in monk for free as well as the chosen class? Saving throw bonuses, BAB, Bonus feats? Based on the wording of the feat it would seem like a yes, but that also seems a pretty powerful feat as it essentially gives you a gestalt monk in non-gestalt games. Granted, monk isn't a horribly powerful class so this may be fine. :smile:

Benefit
Pick one class. Taking levels in this class does not prevent you from taking monk levels. If you take levels in any other class, you lose your ability to progress as a monk as usual. If the selected class also has restricted advancement, such as the paladin class, taking monk levels does not prevent you from advancing in that class.

Another question.

If i use this, i was considering Duskblade as the buildup class and to use the arcane channeling ability. If I wanted to use Flurry of Blows with that, I would need a total of 13 levels of Duskblade to do that. Is there another way to free up later levels or is that it?

On a sidenote, my DM usually encourages alpha striking as he finds it entertaining.

[MisterKaws]

Well, if you really want to go with a spellcaster who doesn't use magic, you could also do the Karsite(ToM) Sorcerer: a caster who is forbidden by racial mechanics from casting any spell. There are some ways to do this and not be useless:

Stalwart Sorcerer(CM)+Battle Sorcerer(UA): Effectively Barbarian HD and Cleric BaB, with some fewer spells you'll never really use for much.

Get Draconic Heritage and Maybe Draconic Breath(CA or RotD).

Use Spell Shield from DgS

At the few first levels(1, ECL 3 till 3, ECL 5), you're a warrior with some bulk and also some nice breath attack for emergencies. Remember that Karsites get Medium Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon proficiency, DR, SR, a on-hit save-or-dispel (Su) ability that requires only a 10+1/2 HD+Cha Will save to work(protip: beatsticks don't have good Will saves), and Spell Healing, so I don't think the HP or slightly lower saves will be a problem.

At level 4(ECL 6), get the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level(RotD) and choose some SLA of your liking. Also do a Dragonpact(DrM) ASAP and always keep it at the highest level.

At level 5(ECL 7), sacrifice some spells known you don't really care and get Domain Access(CC) for some sick domain powers.

At this point, you're good enough to survive for a good time; do whatever you want.

If you get to level 12(ECL 14), you can change your spell-like ability into Arcane Fusion(CM), which allows you to cast 4th level arcane spells using Arcane fusion as medium. Now this is a bit of a TO thing, but we're talking about a Karsite Sorcerer, so I'll assume DM fiat would let this pass: you can fit the requirements for Arcane Strike(CW), so take that and you can now burn through your slots to deal massive amounts of damage. Plus you also get to use all those spells known for something.

[Troacctid]

The feat Monastic Training. Does this give me everything from taking a level in monk for free as well as the chosen class? Saving throw bonuses, BAB, Bonus feats? Based on the wording of the feat it would seem like a yes, but that also seems a pretty powerful feat as it essentially gives you a gestalt monk in non-gestalt games. Granted, monk isn't a horribly powerful class so this may be fine. :smile:
No, it allows you to multiclass normally as a monk. Normally, once you leave the monk class, you can never go back. Monastic Training allows you to e.g. start as a monk, take a level of warblade, then go back to taking levels of monk.

[Bahamut7]

No, it allows you to multiclass normally as a monk. Normally, once you leave the monk class, you can never go back. Monastic Training allows you to e.g. start as a monk, take a level of warblade, then go back to taking levels of monk.

Well that definitely seems fair, though I was never aware that if you multiclassed out of Monk you could never go back. What an odd mechanic.

[tropical_punch]

The monk and paladin multiclass restrictions are sort of a throwback to earlier D&D, when multiclassing was rare and difficult.

[Pyromancer999]

Well, if you really want to go with a spellcaster who doesn't use magic, you could also do the Karsite(ToM) Sorcerer: a caster who is forbidden by racial mechanics from casting any spell. There are some ways to do this and not be useless:

Stalwart Sorcerer(CM)+Battle Sorcerer(UA): Effectively Barbarian HD and Cleric BaB, with some fewer spells you'll never really use for much.

Get Draconic Heritage and Maybe Draconic Breath(CA or RotD).

Use Spell Shield from DgS

At the few first levels(1, ECL 3 till 3, ECL 5), you're a warrior with some bulk and also some nice breath attack for emergencies. Remember that Karsites get Medium Armor Proficiency, Martial Weapon proficiency, DR, SR, a on-hit save-or-dispel (Su) ability that requires only a 10+1/2 HD+Cha Will save to work(protip: beatsticks don't have good Will saves), and Spell Healing, so I don't think the HP or slightly lower saves will be a problem.

At level 4(ECL 6), get the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level(RotD) and choose some SLA of your liking. Also do a Dragonpact(DrM) ASAP and always keep it at the highest level.

At level 5(ECL 7), sacrifice some spells known you don't really care and get Domain Access(CC) for some sick domain powers.

At this point, you're good enough to survive for a good time; do whatever you want.

If you get to level 12(ECL 14), you can change your spell-like ability into Arcane Fusion(CM), which allows you to cast 4th level arcane spells using Arcane fusion as medium. Now this is a bit of a TO thing, but we're talking about a Karsite Sorcerer, so I'll assume DM fiat would let this pass: you can fit the requirements for Arcane Strike(CW), so take that and you can now burn through your slots to deal massive amounts of damage. Plus you also get to use all those spells known for something.

To expand on this, there's also Celestial and Infernal Heritage, from Player's Handbook II.

In exchange for a spell slot(and the requisite feat for each ability), each line can give you:

Celestial: The ability to fly, line attack that deals damage only to evil outsiders, have an instantaneous menacing aura that debuffs enemies for a -2 to attack rolls, checks, and saves for the next 24 hours.

Infernal: Sonic breath weapon similar to the one granted by Draconic Heritage, except with a Fortitude save, the ability to see perfectly in any kind of darkness.

Also, don't forget Draconic Arcane Grace from the Draconic Heritage line, which allows you to expend a spell slot to add that spell slot's level to saves for a round. Another decent feat(if you plan on taking Toughness) is Arcane Toughness, which allows you to expend a spell slot to heal when your HP goes to 0 or below, and automatically stabilizes you if you do.

One last thing which is a grey area:

Reserve feats and the Complete Champion domain ACF.

Complete Champion has three reserve feats that don't require you to be able to cast spells to take them, just have to have domain access. This is for the Death, Destruction, and Protection domains respectively(although Destruction's isn't that great unless you're trying to sunder). The grey area is whether they're usable. They require you to have a spell of that domain available to cast to use them. One could say that technically, so long as you haven't expended your spell slots for that level, you technically have the spell available to cast, you are just incapable of actually doing so. The contrary view would be that being incapable of actually casting the spell means it's off the table.

[Bahamut7]

To expand on this, there's also Celestial and Infernal Heritage, from Player's Handbook II.

In exchange for a spell slot(and the requisite feat for each ability), each line can give you:

Celestial: The ability to fly, line attack that deals damage only to evil outsiders, have an instantaneous menacing aura that debuffs enemies for a -2 to attack rolls, checks, and saves for the next 24 hours.

Infernal: Sonic breath weapon similar to the one granted by Draconic Heritage, except with a Fortitude save, the ability to see perfectly in any kind of darkness.

Also, don't forget Draconic Arcane Grace from the Draconic Heritage line, which allows you to expend a spell slot to add that spell slot's level to saves for a round. Another decent feat(if you plan on taking Toughness) is Arcane Toughness, which allows you to expend a spell slot to heal when your HP goes to 0 or below, and automatically stabilizes you if you do.

One last thing which is a grey area:

Reserve feats and the Complete Champion domain ACF.

Complete Champion has three reserve feats that don't require you to be able to cast spells to take them, just have to have domain access. This is for the Death, Destruction, and Protection domains respectively(although Destruction's isn't that great unless you're trying to sunder). The grey area is whether they're usable. They require you to have a spell of that domain available to cast to use them. One could say that technically, so long as you haven't expended your spell slots for that level, you technically have the spell available to cast, you are just incapable of actually doing so. The contrary view would be that being incapable of actually casting the spell means it's off the table.

Definitely some good stuff and would fit with the Human Silverbrow variant I am using. I will definitely look into, thank you.