5e Champion/Swashbuckler build help

[BurgTurdler]

Hey guys, I just picked up a copy of the new Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide book by WotC and they finally fleshed out the Swashbuckler Rogue(woohoo!). I thought I'd crowdsource for the best build of a dex based Champion fighter and Swashbuckler. This seems like a really potent combo to me. I was thinking at least enough levels of Champion to get the improved crits (19-20) and then just go nuts with Swashbuckler levels. A rapier and a dirk(dagger) seemed to be the best weapon combo maybe with the dual wielder feat for the AC bonus.

Any ideas? :smallcool:

Thanks a bundle!

(P.S.- I don't know a lot of the abbreviation lingo around here (ex. MAD, RAW, etc). Please be kind.)

[Waazraath]

I'd consider going for battlemaster instead of champion; the way to increase damage as a rogue is to get a reaction attack, since sneak attack damage can trigger once per turn (not: once per round). So, the 'riposte' ability of the battlemaster is likely to do more damage than the increased crit chance of the champion.

As an alternative: you could use a few feats to get reaction attacks, like sentinel and/or mage slayer (polearm fighting won't work, because you can't sneak attack with them, not having the finesse property). If you do that, you might want to go fighter 4 or even 6.

[KorvinStarmast]

(P.S.- I don't know a lot of the abbreviation lingo around here (ex. MAD, RAW, etc). Please be kind.)I have seen a lot of folks use SCAG for Sword Coast Adventurers Guide. (Sword Coast Legends is IIRC the name of the computer game?)

[NiklasWB]

Definitely go Battlemaster and not Champion (unless you really want to because of fluff/RP reasons).

I've been toying with a Battlemaster/Swashbuckler build, and I've narrowed it down to Fighter 11 / Rogue 9 or Fighter 15 / Rogue 5. Other people may advocate for more Rogue levels, but that's up to you if you want those 3 attacks from fighter level 11 or higher sneak attack damage.

You'll pretty much always get (at least) one sneak attack on your own round, and with the Riposte maneuver you'll likely to get one as a reaction on an opponent's turn.

Go dual wielding if that fits the idea. Me, I would go Dueling fighting style and use a buckler (or re-fluffed duelist glove/vambrace) for +2 AC and keep your bonus action open for Dash. That way you will be extremely nimble and manage to outmaneuver your foes that can normally only move 30 feet. Since you can prevent opportunity attacks by attacking enemies, getting that 11 levels in fighter will allow you to run circles around at least 3 monsters. Then you have Uncanny Dodge, Riposte and maybe the Parry maneuver as a reaction depending on if you get hit or not. You could also snag the Martial Adept feat for more superiority dice and more maneuvers, or the Defensive Duelist feat for a way to add proficiency to AC as a reaction.

There are a lot of fun things you will be able to do with the battlemaster that you won't get by going champion. Champion may get a few occasional high crits with sneak attack, but battlemaster will be may more consistent.

[Specter]

If you're taking three fighter levels, no reason not to take 5; you can get Extra Attack and Resilient (Wis) as a feat, which is better than Slippery Mind and comes early on. Action Surging, you will have 5 attacks. Yowza.

When you take Dual Wielder, use two rapiers. After that, Expertise Athletics and Acrobatics and you're full on Captain Kenway style.

[2D8HP]

The other posts are probably right about "optimal builds", but I like simplicity, and for what it's worth I have been having the most fun I've had in years playing a no feat standard human Champion 4/Rogue 1, that's survived so far!

[Tanarii]

Sneak Attack is doubled on a Crit right? If so crit fishing via Champion's increased crit range, and Extra Attack + TWF bonus attack may be a valid route. The question is, is the Extra Attack worth more than the SA dice. I can run the calcs but not gonna spend time doing it if SA isn't doubled on a crit ;)

[JeffreyGator]

Yes, critical doubles SA.

From a flavor perspective you may want to consider BattleMaster as well.

Riposte just sounds very swashbuckling doesn't it?

paired scimitars/cutlasses would be my early recommended weapons.

another interesting weapon would be a whip since you can attack from far away.

whip + duelist and you don't need to use your bonus to get away since you only got within 10'. this matters less with swashbuckling since they don't get OA if you attacked them.

Going to fighter 5 for the extra attack is good to guarantee you get the SA to land on one attack.

So BM 6 (second ASI) with trip and riposte, Duelist style.

14 Swashbuckler.

[Waazraath]

You can also pick high elf as race, and go for greenflame blade or booming blade cantrip. Should be a decent upgrade for your damage.

[Lollerabe]

BB (booming blade) and GFB (greenflame blade) aren't that great at upping a Sneak attack dependent chars DPR (damage per round) since casting a cantrip prevents the BA (bonus action) offhand attack, thus compromising your chance of landing that precious SA (sneak attack) damage.

[Tanarii]

Problem with Riposte is it uses up your Reaction that Rogues have earmarked for Uncanny Dodge.

On the other hand, when I started doing the math on crit fishing, I realized that a player choosing to pass up applying SA on a hit on the first attack for a chance of getting a crit on the next attack is fairly unlikely. ie if you have a 65% chance of a hit and a 10% of a crit, how likely are you to pass up SA on that first attack when it hits, and risk missing on the off-hand attack? So a Champion crit-fishing build is effectively only fishing for a SA crit on the first roll, unless it misses in which case it's the second, and if Extra attack only if the first two missed.

If you ignore that, increasing your threat range to 19-20 gives you +10% DPR on your base damage, and +9.25% DPR on your sneak attack, assuming a hit chance of 65%.

[bid]

Fighter 5 for extra attack.

Crit does not help much, it adds less average damage than a +1 hit. Precision attack from battlemaster does better.

[BurgTurdler]

Thanks so much for the advice everyone!

As I understand it:

If I go with the BM fighter I get riposte which is really useful for a second chance at SA damage but it uses my reaction so I can't use Uncanny Dodge. The good part is that depending on the situation I get to choose between the two. If I go with Champion I have a higher % chance to crit which DOUBLES my SA damage but still only when I crit. Whereas if I pick riposte I get to do the same double SA damage, assuming someone will attack me, every round.

TWF will give me two attacks with the attack action right out of the gate(lvl 1) which is two enemies that can't OA me but if I go with the Dueling fighting style I can hold a shield for +2 to an already good DEX based AC and a +2 to damage. If I take the Defense fighting style and the Dual Wielder feat I'll get a +2 to AC, two attacks for every Attack Action(which is again two enemies that can't OA me, and I'll be able to draw both weapons at the same time.

Hooooaaahhh... Those are some potent options. The next questions are race and progression of multiclass level selection(like first level of fighter then second of rogue or three of rogue and then fighter). Ohh! and Stats at first level. Where should I put those precious points?

Thanks again everyone. This character is going to be ridiculous.... I love it.

[Giant2005]

If I go with the BM fighter I get riposte which is really useful for a second chance at SA damage but it uses my reaction so I can't use Uncanny Dodge.

It isn't just a second chance at SA damage, but a second instance of SA damage. You SA them once on your turn and then you SA them again on theirs. That means you get to SA them twice in a round of combat.
That ability is absolutely huge but it isn't necessarily the best option.
A dual-wielding, Halfing Champion 5/Rogue X that attacks with advantage will have a 35.82% chance of landing a critical hit within his first two attacks (don't push it and try it on the third or you might not SA at all that round). That means that on average you will have a critical SA every 3 rounds. A Battlemaster basically gets a free, extra SA 4 times per short rest. What that means is that if you expect to fight 12 or more rounds of combat without resting on any consistent basis, you are better off with a Champion.
If you don't expect your fights to occur that frequently or last that long, then play the Battlemaster, otherwise play the build below.

Halfling (either) Champion 5/Rogue (any) X.
Absolutely dual-wield, but the feat is not a priority. However, make sure you take the mounted combatant feat ASAP and get yourself an Elephant, a horse, and a mastiff. Daisy-chain your pets and always ride whichever is the largest you can ride in any given situation.

[Serket]

On the other hand, when I started doing the math on crit fishing, I realized that a player choosing to pass up applying SA on a hit on the first attack for a chance of getting a crit on the next attack is fairly unlikely.

:smallsmile: I did the same thing a month ago. I started with "I'd apply sneak attack first chance I got", and ended up with the conclusion that a mostly-rogue (champ 3-5) getting advantage was just the best thing. 19% crit chance? "Glorious!" I thought... being used to pathfinder.

Then I worked out the actual damage increase, and was a lot less impressed. :smallfrown: Battlemaster doing stuff that's interesting has got to be better.

[Specter]

The next questions are race and progression of multiclass level selection(like first level of fighter then second of rogue or three of rogue and then fighter). Ohh! and Stats at first level. Where should I put those precious stats?

As for race, your best bet is Variant Human, since you can start with Dual Wielder, and enjoy your score increases better. But it might not be the best flavor-wise, so it's up to you. Anything boosting DEX is nice, and anything boosting CON is good enough.

I'd take 3 levels of rogue first for Swash stuff, then 5 on fighter, then the rest on rogue.

As for stats, assuming a normal point buy:
15DEX
14CON
14CHA
10STR
10WIS
8INT

?

[Nu]

I'm gonna be the oddball here and advocate maybe 7 levels of rogue for two instances of expertise, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, 4d6 Sneak Attack, and the rest in fighter. I consider battle master to be the superior choice to champion, though I don't think champion is that bad off.

How I did it when I played was 5 rogue -> 3 fighter -> 2 rogue -> rest fighter. In theory, the 19th/20th level might be better spent in rogue than fighter as it nets you an ASI, but I don't consider the 19th/20th level scenario all that likely and I'm much more concerned with that 3rd attack at level 11 being the "high level feature" to shoot for. If I had to do it again though, I might start with the 1st level in fighter to get additional weapon/armor proficiencies right off the back, particularly if you want to use a shield and take the Shield Mastery feat (which I consider to be quite Swashbucklery, at least as much as TWF, if you envision the shield as a buckler). Expertise in Athletics is a boon here!

Rogue features after level 7 are mostly lackluster (exception: Arcane Trickster, but that's a different can of worms), aside from additional Sneak Attack dice, unless you're in a very specific campaign where the highly situational features will come in handy. Now, the real question is rogue 5 vs rogue 7. Rogues level 6 and 7 give you Expertise, Evasion, and an additional Sneak Attack die. Up to you whether or not that's worth it, I considered it to be, but others might disagree.

[BurgTurdler]

How I did it when I played was 5 rogue -> 3 fighter -> 2 rogue -> rest fighter. In theory, the 19th/20th level might be better spent in rogue than fighter as it nets you an ASI, but I don't consider the 19th/20th level scenario all that likely and I'm much more concerned with that 3rd attack at level 11 being the "high level feature" to shoot for.

Nu what's an ASI?



Thanks so much to everyone who's helped me with this. I think this character is going to be super fun to play!:smallbiggrin:

[BurgTurdler]

A few other things guys and gals...

You're emphasizing the shield/athletics expertise combo to use one of my attacks to do an athletics check to try to knock the opponent prone right. That gives me advantage on the next attack. Is that what you guys had in mind?

If the above is correct I'm picturing starting off with Rogue 1,2,3 then once I get swash take fighter 1 and TWF. Once I get to fighter five with Extra Attack retrain TWF to Duelist fighting style.

Not sure yet what sequence I'll put in levels after that but I'm leaning toward a final build of either F 12/R 8 for the ASI..... (AAAHHH Nu I just totally answered my own question I asked above about ASI) or F 11/R 9 for the SA dice increase.


For race I'm stuck between wood elf for the 35' of movement (70' with cunning action dash) or Halfling for the Lucky racial feature. Actually now that I think about it the Lucky feature would probably work better with Champion fighter and the Wood Elf extra mobility with Battle Master. Both get a +2 to DEX.

One other thing to add on... I just noticed this. With the Riposte Maneuver they have to MISS you with a melee attack in order to use it! So if you're going up against anyone who hits you consistently Riposte is mostly useless.:smallfrown:

[EvilestWeevil]

Thanks so much for the advice everyone!

As I understand it:

If I go with the BM fighter I get riposte which is really useful for a second chance at SA damage but it uses my reaction so I can't use Uncanny Dodge.

The best part of battlemaster with riposte, and say defensive duelist, you have a reaction to use for being hit (Uncanny Dodge), a reaction for being missed (Riposte), and a reaction if its a close hit that negates all damage (Defensive Duelist). You end up with a solution for any problem involving things trying to bash your face in, plus evasion.

[BurgTurdler]

The best part of battlemaster with riposte, and say defensive duelist, you have a reaction to use for being hit (Uncanny Dodge), a reaction for being missed (Riposte), and a reaction if its a close hit that negates all damage (Defensive Duelist). You end up with a solution for any problem involving things trying to bash your face in, plus evasion.

You mean that you can use your one reaction for any of those possibilities right?

You did just make me think of something though, If you can't use riposte unless they miss, using the extra AC from Defensive Duelist can turn a lost opportunity into another SA+superiority dam+weapon dam.

This combo gives me shivers...

[djreynolds]

Please do not dump strength, 13 is fine.

Expertise in athletics, Even TWF you can give up an attack to prone someone and strike them with advantage while they are on their backs.

Grab 6 levels of fighter. ASI there and Specter is right get resilient wisdom, 15th level is too long to wait. Its a wash whether to begin as a fighter or rogue as saves in dex and con are both good, I would suggest fighter for con saves as hold person or paralysis can ruin your day.

An extra attack will allow you to shove, strike and hopefully land a sneak attack and maybe a crit because you're rolling with advantage, and disengage.

But you know what, how about no fighter, a cheap 13 in strength is 1 for 1, and you are going to have a high charisma. Go paladin/rogue.

13/15/12/8/10/14. Not bad and 6 levels of paladin will help out those low saves, as will having bless up and running.
Half Elf 13/16/13/8/10/16 and get resilient con. Now you have saves in dex/int/con and aura of protection from paladin and the bless spell.

Shield of faith is +2 AC, and I know you want duel weapon fighting style, but often with your bonus action, you will want disengage after you land that sneak attack. You can cast bless as well to help your chances to hit and increase saves.

For feats I suggest simply grabbing ASI in charisma and dex, and maybe resilient con and grab protection style from paladin.

Avenger paladin at 7th level has a nice class feature, and devotion paladin's sacred weapon will make sure you land your sneak attack, 1 minute every short rest.

When I play a rogue, I use disengage a lot. I only use my off-hand if I miss and hope uncanny dodge holds up.

And the high charisma needs of the paladin will work with swashbuckler.

[Giant2005]

what's an ASI?

It stands for Ability Score Enhancement. It is the thing you get at certain levels that either increases one of your abilities by 2 points, two abilities by 1 point each, or gives you the ability to instead take a feat if you are playing in a game that includes feats.

[Nu]

You mean that you can use your one reaction for any of those possibilities right?

You did just make me thing of something though, If you can't use riposte unless they miss, using the extra AC from Defensive Duelist can turn a lost opportunity into another SA+superiority dam+weapon dam.

This combo gives me shivers...

Not quite how that works, if you use your reaction to activate Defensive Duelist then you can't use your reaction to Riposte.


Nu what's an ASI?

Sorry, it's short for Ability Score Improvement, the +2 ability scores or feat (if feats are permitted) that comes every 4 levels (fighters get them more often, rogues get an extra one at 10th level).


Expertise in athletics, Even TWF you can give up an attack to prone someone and strike them with advantage while they are on their backs.

...

Shield of faith is +2 AC, and I know you want duel weapon fighting style, but often with your bonus action, you will want disengage after you land that sneak attack. You can cast bless as well to help your chances to hit and increase saves.

...

When I play a rogue, I use disengage a lot. I only use my off-hand if I miss and hope uncanny dodge holds up.

And the high charisma needs of the paladin will work with swashbuckler.

You can give up the attack to Shove, but only when you get the extra attack, otherwise you don't activate the trigger of "attacking with a light weapon" to get the bonus action off-hand attack.

Disengage is largely not useful for a Swashbuckler unless you are wading into a big pile of enemies, as any enemy you attack cannot make OAs against you anyway. It's smarter to Dash if you want to use hit-and-run tactics, and for a Battle Master multiclass it's often not optimal anyway, as you want them to try and hit you back so you can Riposte. For other rogues (like your hypothetical paladin/rogue) though it's a better move.

And honestly, the Charisma needs of a Swashbuckler are rather low. +Charisma to Initiative is nice, but generally you don't mind if it's a +1 instead of a +4, as your Initiative should already be high because of high Dexterity. It's gravy--good gravy, but the other features are why you're here, I'd wager. And the level 9 feature is highly situational, assuming you're even taking that many levels in rogue.

[bid]

Once I get to fighter five with Extra Attack retrain TWF to Duelist fighting style.
You cannot retrain. The only workaround is Adventurers League character rebuilding rule, which must be done before the character reaches 5th level.

[djreynolds]

Not quite how that works, if you use your reaction to activate Defensive Duelist then you can't use your reaction to Riposte.



Sorry, it's short for Ability Score Improvement, the +2 ability scores or feat (if feats are permitted) that comes every 4 levels (fighters get them more often, rogues get an extra one at 10th level).



You can give up the attack to Shove, but only when you get the extra attack, otherwise you don't activate the trigger of "attacking with a light weapon" to get the bonus action off-hand attack.

Disengage is largely not useful for a Swashbuckler unless you are wading into a big pile of enemies, as any enemy you attack cannot make OAs against you anyway. It's smarter to Dash if you want to use hit-and-run tactics, and for a Battle Master multiclass it's often not optimal anyway, as you want them to try and hit you back so you can Riposte. For other rogues (like your hypothetical paladin/rogue) though it's a better move.

And honestly, the Charisma needs of a Swashbuckler are rather low. +Charisma to Initiative is nice, but generally you don't mind if it's a +1 instead of a +4, as your Initiative should already be high because of high Dexterity. It's gravy--good gravy, but the other features are why you're here, I'd wager. And the level 9 feature is highly situational, assuming you're even taking that many levels in rogue.

You are correct.

That's why I said 6 levels of paladin for aura of protection and that extra attack. The swashbuckler/paladin is a solid build, they go nicely together. You really go toe to toe and duel with a bad guy. And he can use the dash action as well 1on1. I prefer shield master but OP wants duel wield. He could 12 paladin/8 rogue for that.