Low level Cleric Spell selection

[Sword-Geass]

Hello playgrounders, I'm here to ask what the title suggests, as I don't really know which tricks a cleric could potentially use in this levels. I'm no new to optimization, but the cleric isn't a class that really strikes me as interesting so I haven't researched really hard about it (mainly reading the cleric handbook on BG, but the spells selection presented in it for low levels is oriented to utility and complement for higher levels, and completely lacks lvl 0 spells). This is for the neutral good cleric of one of my players in a just started adventure. Usefull data about him:


He wants to specialise in magic, so offensive spells are prefered.
He has 18 in Wisdom, so save DC are not a problem.
He's lvl 2, which lowers the utility of spells like the SM line.
He is the only spellcaster of the party, not for lack of people, but for overlapping characters.
All books allowed, even dragon magazine. I'm the DM.
His feats are Extend and Persist, going the DMM:Persist route.
Has some combat capabilities. Actually, he is the most durable character of the party.
No blast spells please.

So, which spells would you recommend for him? And thanks in advance!

[Bronk]

Hello playgrounders, I'm here to ask what the title suggests, as I don't really know which tricks a cleric could potentially use in this levels. I'm no new to optimization, but the cleric isn't a class that really strikes me as interesting so I haven't researched really hard about it (mainly reading the cleric handbook on BG, but the spells selection presented in it for low levels is oriented to utility and complement for higher levels, and completely lacks lvl 0 spells). This is for the neutral good cleric of one of my players in a just started adventure. Usefull data about him:


He wants to specialise in magic, so offensive spells are prefered.
He has 18 in Wisdom, so save DC are not a problem.
He's lvl 2, which lowers the utility of spells like the SM line.
He is the only spellcaster of the party, not for lack of people, but for overlapping characters.
All books allowed, even dragon magazine. I'm the DM.
His feats are Extend and Persist, going the DMM:Persist route.
Has some combat capabilities. Actually, he is the most durable character of the party.

So, which spells would you recommend for him? And thanks in advance!

Well, there isn't much out there for direct damage cleric spells at level one. You could suggest the 'conjure ice beast' line from Frostburn. That's their best shot at an area affect spell that deals damage, since it summons something off the Summon Monster or Nature's ally line, then turns it into an ice beast that can shoot cold energy. That makes it pretty good against swarms... you just have to pick the biggest, highest HD critter of your level to summon, to get the most out of the template.

Or there's the ice gauntlet spell, which lasts longer, but is more melee oriented.

[Sword-Geass]

Thanks for the reply! But for clarification, offensive doesn't mean blasting, while direct damage is offensive, that's not what I'm looking for. Glitterdust is an offensive spell, to name something (but it's sorc/wiz, not cleric), Color Spray would be another example of what I'm looking for (but it has the same problem).
Also Conjure Ice Beast has the same problem of Summon Monster, which is the short duration paired with a 1 round casting time, so it's also of low use here (and for clarification once again, SM is not out because it's banned or anything like that, is just that using one round and one of the few available spells to have a critter around for two rounds is pretty wasteful, maybe when he reaches lvl 3 it will be used, while SM II will definitely be).
Anyway, thanks for the answer.

[Bronk]

Thanks for the reply! But for clarification, offensive doesn't mean blasting, while direct damage is offensive, that's not what I'm looking for. Glitterdust is an offensive spell, to name something (but it's sorc/wiz, not cleric), Color Spray would be another example of what I'm looking for (but it has the same problem).
Also Conjure Ice Beast has the same problem of Summon Monster, which is the short duration paired with a 1 round casting time, so it's also of low use here (and for clarification once again, SM is not out because it's banned or anything like that, is just that using one round and one of the few available spells to have a critter around for two rounds is pretty wasteful, maybe when he reaches lvl 3 it will be used, while SM II will definitely be).
Anyway, thanks for the answer.

Well, 'command' maybe? It's a standard save or suck spell. That's the thing though, most of the offensive spells, even the non damaging ones, are sor/wiz.

[Sword-Geass]

That's a good one. Still, seems to be that at these levels there won't be a lot of things for him to do but buffing...

[Janthkin]

Yeah, most Cleric spells tend towards the buff (or debuff) type, rather than anything obviously offensive. At low levels, that's definitely the optimal way to play, as low-level clerics have very few spell slots, so spending one on a save-or-suck with a single target isn't usually a great idea.

There are no real offensive spells at level 0 for clerics, unless you've got some way of chaining additional damage onto things like Inflict Minor Wounds - Dragonfire Inspiration Bard, maybe?

At level 1, there is the Inflict Light Wounds, but it's not a great option: spell + touch attack + Will save for half vs. just hit it with a (war)mace.
Bane is good, in that if many enemies must make saves, some are probably going to fail.
Cause Fear is probably as good as it gets, as it still imposes Shaken on a save.
Ice Slick (Frostburn) is kinda like Grease.
Lesser Shivering Touch (Frostburn) is still nasty.

Level 2 gets some better options. The Bewildering... spells from Complete Champion are okay. Cloud of Knives has uses - swap one standard action for free attacks later. Darkness and Silence have offensive uses. Spiritual Weapon is good to sic on enemy casters. Sound Burst offers (very limited) area damage, and a potential debuff.

[Gallowglass]

Thanks for the reply! But for clarification, offensive doesn't mean blasting, while direct damage is offensive, that's not what I'm looking for. Glitterdust is an offensive spell, to name something (but it's sorc/wiz, not cleric), Color Spray would be another example of what I'm looking for (but it has the same problem).
Also Conjure Ice Beast has the same problem of Summon Monster, which is the short duration paired with a 1 round casting time, so it's also of low use here (and for clarification once again, SM is not out because it's banned or anything like that, is just that using one round and one of the few available spells to have a critter around for two rounds is pretty wasteful, maybe when he reaches lvl 3 it will be used, while SM II will definitely be).
Anyway, thanks for the answer.

So I don't disagree that summon monster -FEELS- wasteful at low levels, but I want to try to explain how the action economy of the spell isn't actually as wasteful as it feels.

A first level cleric could have the following two rounds of combat.

round 1: Cleric starts 30' from enemy. Move to adjacent to enemy, attack enemy, hitting for 6 pts of damage
enemy attacks cleric for 4 pts of damage

round 2: Cleric attacks again, for 3 pts of dmg. He is half dead, so he moves straight back away from the enemy to not take an AoO, hoping the enemy doesn't pursue him.
enemy pursues, moves up to the Cleric and attacks for 4 pts of dmg.

Now here's the same cleric using Summon Monster

round 1: Cleric starts 30' from enemy. Cleric takes 5' step away from enemy and then begins casting full round summon spell.
enemy moves up toward cleric. Can't reach him in one move, so he double moves up to adjacent to Cleric. Cannot attack.

round 2: Cleric finishes casting of spell. Summoned monster appears on other side of enemy. Cleric attacks enemy with +2 flank bonus hitting for 6 pts of damage.
Cleric's summoned monster hits with +2 flank bonus for 4 pts of damage.
enemy is surrounded. Attacks cleric for 4pts of damage, but can't flee without taking AoO. He risks it and get his by one or both the cleric and the monster and killed. Or he doesn't risk it and sits still.

So in both cases, over two rounds of combat, the Action Economy evens out. in one case, the cleric got two attacks and the enemy got two attacks. In the other case, the cleric got one attack, his summon got one attack (for 2 attacks) and the enemy got 2 attacks. The only net difference is a bonus to hit for you based on flanking.

So even at first level, the action economy is even over any two rounds. At second level, the cleric gets a +1 action economy because the monster sticks around 2 rounds.

And in the example, the enemy MAY have decided to attack the monster on round 2 (if it didn't know how summons worked or though the monster was scarier) and it cut off his escape route, helped you with battlefield control, and may have even affected the monster's strategy.

It really shines when you are working with a team. Then, as long as you stay back and don't charge in, you can almost guarantee NOT being attacked during your first round casting time and you have the great option of placing the summon wherever it makes sense within 30' or so, so you can put it where it will do the most good (flank buddy for a thief left out in the cold, temporary roadblock for the fighter that just got pwned, on the OTHER side of the hungry pit that got opened while you were casting the spell, on the other side of the portacullis where it can pull the open lever, etc.)

So, don't dismiss the summon monster line based on the long casting time. It really doesn't cost you an action over a two round period and, in most cases, unless you are ambushed, you can strategize a way to get the spell off without getting hit (at least at low levels)


outside the rules, one house rule I've played with before has been if you summon a monster for any non-combat purpose, it lasts for 10 minutes a level (or an hour a level) rather than 1 round per level. That way you can use a monster to track someone or serve as a guard for an area, or to play a "i'm a prisoner" ruse, or to help search in a lake or something. In the house rule, if your summoned monster happened to get into combat during the extended period, it would switch immediately to rounds/level.

So you might want to talk to you DM about that kind of houserule if you want your summons to be MORE than a combat spell. It really worked well for that game.

[Troacctid]

At level 1, the typical cleric strategy is to cast Bless as a budget Inspire Courage, then charge into melee and start thwacking heads with your morningstar.

If you want more aggressive debuffs, you could try Cause Fear or Command, both of which can take a single target out of the fight for multiple rounds. Command forces them to flee as quickly as possible, which usually means the Run action, which causes them to provoke attacks of opportunity and lose their Dexterity bonus to AC, and generally ensures that it'll take at least another round for them to re-enter the fight when the effect wears off. The downside is that it does nothing if they make the save, and if there isn't a straight line long enough for them to run more than twice their base movement speed, then they can Withdraw instead and avoid opportunity attacks and also get back into the fight faster. Cause Fear allows them to use the Withdraw action, so they can get out without provoking and might be able to get back in on the next round if they charge, but it lasts for 1d4 rounds, so it can potentially disable them for significantly longer, and it still applies a minor debuff even if they make the save.

However, the Bless + Thwacking plan is probably still more effective at this point.

[ATHATH]

Alternatively, just have the Cleric buy a Wand of Lesser Orb of Fire or something, and have him use that.

[Sword-Geass]

So you might want to talk to you DM about that kind of houserule if you want your summons to be MORE than a combat spell. It really worked well for that game.

Well I that's not a problem, I'm the DM :smallbiggrin: I was asking for a player. Also, I know that you don't lose any action with SM I even at first level, and that with clever use it ends paying itself, but it's my player the one who droped it, and said latter maybe, and it's also not my job to teach him how to outmanuever his enemies. Also, the tactic wouldn't work against a charge, but that's not the point. As for the houserule, so far it wouldn't change anything at the table, as they haven't really tried to solve an out of combat situation with spells (that reminds me, they are very new, something that I should have written in the OP).



If you want more aggressive debuffs, you could try Cause Fear or Command, both of which can take a single target out of the fight for multiple rounds.

Thanks a lot! That's the kind of things I was looking for!


However, the Bless + Thwacking plan is probably still more effective at this point.

Even more so with his actual party composition, beside him there are 3 other "wackers", but he is the one looking for offensive spells. It's still one of his last prepared spells, but only because I suggested it.


Alternatively, just have the Cleric buy a Wand of Lesser Orb of Fire or something, and have him use that.

That has three problems: 1) Wealth by level, he has spent some gold in an armor and a mwk morningstar, along other minor things, so he doesn't have the money. 2) Lesser Orb of Fire (and all the orb spells) are not in the cleric list, so he wouldn't be able to use them. 3) They learned in a past "tutorial" campaign how sucky direct damage spells are, thanks to one of the players who played a Magic Missile spamming wizard.

[Gallowglass]

it's also not my job to teach him how to outmanuever his enemies. ... .

(that reminds me, they are very new, something that I should have written in the OP)..


Well, you and me have a fundamental disagreement of what your job is as a DM of a new group of players. :)

But that's beside the point.

It seems like he wants to be a cleric, but instead of buffing (which is what clerics do well)l he wants mostly debuffing and battlefield control spells (which they don't).

Maybe try to convince him to play a druid? Still a divine caster but with a spell list that fills the roles he wants to fill?

If this was pathfinder, I would point him to the witch.

[Sword-Geass]

Well, you and me have a fundamental disagreement of what your job is as a DM of a new group of players. :)

But that's beside the point.

It seems like he wants to be a cleric, but instead of buffing (which is what clerics do well)l he wants mostly debuffing and battlefield control spells (which they don't).

Maybe try to convince him to play a druid? Still a divine caster but with a spell list that fills the roles he wants to fill?

If this was pathfinder, I would point him to the witch.

He is dead set in playing a cleric, there's a million other thing that I would have suggested him but...

Also don't get me wrong, I what I meant is that I won't be telling them wich should be each of their actions, but I will point out the way the rules work and diferent ways of achieving something that they want to do, but I would expect the idea to come from them. I want smart players, peeling the apple is okey, chewing it is not (although I do hold their hand quite a lot, but in a passive way).

[Darrin]

Thanks for the reply! But for clarification, offensive doesn't mean blasting, while direct damage is offensive, that's not what I'm looking for. Glitterdust is an offensive spell, to name something (but it's sorc/wiz, not cleric), Color Spray would be another example of what I'm looking for (but it has the same problem).
Also Conjure Ice Beast has the same problem of Summon Monster, which is the short duration paired with a 1 round casting time, so it's also of low use here (and for clarification once again, SM is not out because it's banned or anything like that, is just that using one round and one of the few available spells to have a critter around for two rounds is pretty wasteful, maybe when he reaches lvl 3 it will be used, while SM II will definitely be).


Some spell advice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20663891&postcount=11) from an earlier thread.

I don't disagree that the duration on conjure ice beast/summon monster isn't long enough to be all that useful at that level, but conjure ice beast may be your best "blasting" option at that level. Once the ice beast is summoned, you can give it a Cold Aura as a special attack, which is a free-action 10' burst of 1d6 cold damage without a save. Assuming the ice beast survives to round 2, it gets another 10' burst of 1d6 cold damage.

There are also ways to mitigate the 1 round casting time. Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 GP, MIC) can reduce the casting time to a standard action 1/day. And then there's this from the spell description:

"In all other ways, conjure ice beast I functions like summon monster I."

You could rule as DM that this means Golden Desert Honey (300 GP, Complete Mage) could be used with conjure ice beast to reduce the casting time to a standard action. It's not quite RAW, as conjure ice beast is a creation rather than a summoning spell, but you can handwave some wiggle-room. Or create a different material component, Golden Glacier Honey, that does the same thing with creation spells.

Blade of blood (PHBII) is a pretty decent damage buff, either for his own weapon or an ally. Maybe drop it to him as a wand, although that spell is on so many spell lists that there's no guarantee it would go to the cleric.

Ice slick (Frostburn) has already been mentioned, and is a great debuff. Make sure you drop a wand of snowshoes (Spell Compendium) so the meatbags in the party don't fall down.

Bronk already mentioned ice gauntlet (Spell Compendium), which is probably your best melee option. There are a few ranged options:

Light of lunia (Spell Compendium). Gives you two 1d6 rays out to 30', and a decent duration (10 min/CL).

Lantern light (Book of Exalted Deeds). 1d6 ray per two CLs out to close range.

Nimbus of light (Spell Compendium). 1d8+X ray, where X = number of rounds you "hold" the spell, up to your CL. More damage than the other two, but more annoying to cast: standard, wait a round, then move + standard to fire the ray.

Some of those get much better as CL goes up, but at this level all three of those are sorta outclassed by magic stone + sling. Or a light crossbow.

[Sword-Geass]

Thanks for the answer, unfortunately blast aren't going to be used (added that to the OP). And also the items are not acquireble yet, since they are lvl 2 and the total wealth of the carácter is around 900gp. 300gp per summon would make him cry at the moment... Although the chronocharm may be found as treasure...

Pd: postes from my phone, forgive any mistakes please...

[rrwoods]

Look for the link in GilesTheCleric's signature. Super helpful list of spells for clerics of all levels.

My favorite at the levels you're talking about is ice slick, but you'll need to check with your DM ahead of time to see how he's going to calculate the balance DC since the spell doesn't specify.