need help with a "riddle" worthy of a lich...

[Ketiara]

...but still able for a lvl 19 party to crack.

So they got the lich down, and now they are roaming his chambers, and I have some rooms set up that will need a "none activation key" to keep the emergency protocol to go off.

lets say its a panel of lights, runes or words that need to be ordered in some way, or it may be a riddle. The main point is that It should be solvable by normal humans (most likely drunk humans) any good experiences or ideas you guys would like to pass on?

my idea is that a series of riddles or puzzles will open up doors and when one is failed the rest will be sealed... and its alright, ive done the lich horde roll for alot of the rooms, so they wont miss out if they only get to one room... and they should only get to 2 or 3 rooms if they are really awsome!

[SethoMarkus]

...but still able for a lvl 19 party to crack.

So they got the lich down, and now they are roaming his chambers, and I have some rooms set up that will need a "none activation key" to keep the emergency protocol to go off.

lets say its a panel of lights, runes or words that need to be ordered in some way, or it may be a riddle. The main point is that It should be solvable by normal humans (most likely drunk humans) any good experiences or ideas you guys would like to pass on?

my idea is that a series of riddles or puzzles will open up doors and when one is failed the rest will be sealed... and its alright, ive done the lich horde roll for alot of the rooms, so they wont miss out if they only get to one room... and they should only get to 2 or 3 rooms if they are really awsome!

I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for, with all the references to party level and only human? Are these riddles meant to be solved through roleplay or are the players rolling dice for it?

In either case, there is a free app called "Riddle Me That" which has some decent riddles that can be taken directly or adapted for D&D (specifically the Rhyme section). The only downside is you need to solve the riddles yourself, first. :smallbiggrin:

[JakOfAllTirades]

Why is a raven like a writing desk?

[Markoff Chainey]

...but still able for a lvl 19 party to crack.


this is the problem as mentioned above... while the characters might be or should be able to solve them, your fellow "lvl 1 commoner players" might be totally overwhelmed.

So either you let the chars roll... lame!
or you risk that they fail... also lame!

This is why real riddles are not so overly popular in most games and if you want to introduce them, it is better to introduce them as a fun "sidequest" first where nothing big happens either way and collect some experiences how your players react on them and on the difficulty.

I am speaking out of (frustrating) experience and had an adventure planned that relied upon solving three rather simple riddles and it took the whole night to solve 2 and ended in a disaster at number 3.

What you could also do is to mix the task of the riddle with a task in the game. - like an inscription on a wall that reads something like: (encrypted, if someone can still read it, so that person feels special) "when the evil blood drops on the altar, the spirit is freed" - and there is an altar on a sacophargus that they find and now they have to figure out who the evil guy is and how to get his blood there... (and the just released spirit might hold a suprise for them - a good or bad, up to you) so its not really a "riddle" anymore but feels like one for the players.

Should your players belong to the rather rare breed of riddlers, I think any riddle refluffed will do and I would look something up in google. like this: http://listverse.com/2013/10/27/top-10-intriguing-riddles-from-history/

[Dr. Cliché]

I quite like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HirxAgPBAZg


There's also this one from Planescape Torment:

"Now, think of words which end in '-GRY.' Angry and hungry are two of them. There are but three words in the Common Tongue... what is the third word? The word is something that one uses every day. If thou hast listened carefully, I have already told thee what it is."

Tongue.

(The whole '-gry' thing is just a distraction.)

[SethoMarkus]

this is the problem as mentioned above... while the characters might be or should be able to solve them, your fellow "lvl 1 commoner players" might be totally overwhelmed.

So either you let the chars roll... lame!
or you risk that they fail... also lame!

This is why real riddles are not so overly popular in most games and if you want to introduce them, it is better to introduce them as a fun "sidequest" first where nothing big happens either way and collect some experiences how your players react on them and on the difficulty.

I am speaking out of (frustrating) experience and had an adventure planned that relied upon solving three rather simple riddles and it took the whole night to solve 2 and ended in a disaster at number 3.

What you could also do is to mix the task of the riddle with a task in the game. - like an inscription on a wall that reads something like: (encrypted, if someone can still read it, so that person feels special) "when the evil blood drops on the altar, the spirit is freed" - and there is an altar on a sacophargus that they find and now they have to figure out who the evil guy is and how to get his blood there... (and the just released spirit might hold a suprise for them - a good or bad, up to you) so its not really a "riddle" anymore but feels like one for the players.

Should your players belong to the rather rare breed of riddlers, I think any riddle refluffed will do and I would look something up in google. like this: http://listverse.com/2013/10/27/top-10-intriguing-riddles-from-history/

To be fair, some of the riddles in the app I mentioned are almost too simple. For example:


It's voice is like a burp.
Will swallow with a slurp,
You'll never hear it chirp.
Kiss it with a wince,
Might turn into a prince.
A frog.

One is about a Unicorn, and clues are "one defining feature" and "at their worst, some people see it only as a horse". Another talks about Ice, mentioning "Some people use it in their rink, others just put it in their drink". All of these have about three sets of clues in each rhyme. Though it is worth mentioning that in the app there are blocks to fill in with letters, so you always know how long the word is and have a pool of potential letters to pull from, so maybe an enchanted wall or table with sigil-like letters would be useful.

[FightStyles]

Do your character's know the lich's name? If they do, this is a rather good riddle. (for this example let's say it's Fredric)

"Fredric's father had four sons, one named Radan, one Reden, and one Ridin. What was the other one named?"

Answer: Fredric

However, it is always cautioned to make a riddle or puzzle something the players HAVE to do to continue the story. They should always be just sidequests as mentioned before.

Good Luck!

[Dr. Cliché]

To be fair, some of the riddles in the app I mentioned are almost too simple. For example:


It's voice is like a burp.
Will swallow with a slurp,
You'll never hear it chirp.
Kiss it with a wince,
Might turn into a prince.
A frog.

One is about a Unicorn, and clues are "one defining feature" and "at their worst, some people see it only as a horse". Another talks about Ice, mentioning "Some people use it in their rink, others just put it in their drink". All of these have about three sets of clues in each rhyme. Though it is worth mentioning that in the app there are blocks to fill in with letters, so you always know how long the word is and have a pool of potential letters to pull from, so maybe an enchanted wall or table with sigil-like letters would be useful.

I've often seen riddles that seem to have a line or two too many. As in, the first few lines could qualify as a riddle, but then the last one or two just make it far too obvious.

[tieren]

Maybe try giving them really simple IRL riddles (maybe even general knowledge trivia questions), time how long it takes for them to give the correct answer and make that the DC for the characters roll to succeed, or if they get them too quickly maybe time +10. You could do one for each party member with each taking a crack at opening a different room.

[Segev]

This may be no help at all, so if that's the case, feel free to disregard it.

But it always confuses me when riddles are used in security that is meant to be commonly utilized by authorized users who should know the systems. Why did the lich set it up with riddles, rather than simply making it a sequence of passwords or random combinations of buttons or some other "nobody but he and those he tells can do this" authorization system.

Riddles make a certain amount of sense if they're meant to test one's knowledge, one's cultural background, or one's reasoning ability. If it's a test-of-worthiness or a "the reincarnation of Bob the Mighty would have an instinctive knowledge of this, once reminded in this way" sort of deal, that makes sense. You don't have a guarantee that the password(s) made it through time and distance to those you WANT to use it, but you want to keep out most people anyway. So you set it up with something solvable by those who have the appropriate skills, talents, spiritual purity, or what-have-you.

But this is a security failsafe for the lich and his minions. Why would he use riddles to secure it, when he'll just treat the riddles' answers as passwords? Why not just use passwords?

Password hints usually don't count as riddles; they rely on personal knowledge that has nothing to do with the kind of general or trivia knowledge on which riddles rely.

[kaoskonfety]

"but still able for a lvl 19 party to crack"

The Characters or the Players? Because these are very different questions.

If you including riddles for the players I'd suggest attaching a character skill challenge of some sort to bypass - sometimes no one gets it, and thats ok, but it shouldn't end your game or bog it down for hours.

The riddles to confront your players with will vary depending on if they are "riddle people" and what kinds of media they have consumed. With younger people I often just toss out the riddles from the Hobbit - they are manageable in difficulty if you haven't read it and it rewards reading the Hobbit, which I want to do. Go read the Hobbit.

For more puzzles - Sliding panel or image match puzzles can be physically made with a printer. Buying a novelty puzzle box for your players to toy with. Weak Ciphers of the letter substitution variety and any number of other weak security can be fun and represent the Characters doing something more... out there (runic resonance alignment... sure that sounds cool)

[Bladeyeoman]

But it always confuses me when riddles are used in security that is meant to be commonly utilized by authorized users who should know the systems. Why did the lich set it up with riddles, rather than simply making it a sequence of passwords or random combinations of buttons or some other "nobody but he and those he tells can do this" authorization system.

YES. "I'll set up this elaborate system that can be circumvented by reasonably clever people, and is relatively annoying for me to use. That's a better idea than just using magic keyed to my identity or based on a password only I know."

That said, how does detect thoughts work? I'm AFB at the moment. If I were worried about someone read a password out of my mind, I'd be tempted to set up a system of randomly generated challenges that only I could reasonably solve (using some system such that the challenge changed each time I used it, so that I wouldn't have a memory of the solution for the current challenge).

Magic keyed to identity could, perhaps, be fooled with sufficiently potent magic? Which might be a reason why the lich didn't use them, or could be a challenge for the players.

If the character in question had relatively unique immunities or attributes, a challenge requiring those seems both logical and an interesting challenge for characters. (are liches immune to necrotic damage? accessing the special rooms could involve taking substantial necrotic damage)

[Marcelinari]

The concerns about passwords are valid, but if you're looking for straight up riddles, I've got a rather good one here.

Elm and Ash, Rowan Tree and Hazel,
They name me each, I nurture them in turn,
Soft to touch, yet solid in my bearing,
I support all, e'en those who'd watch me burn.

The answer is EARTH, and can potentially be used as a kind of security question for the door or lock or whatever - sprinkle some earth on something, and hey presto.

[Dr. Cliché]

YES. "I'll set up this elaborate system that can be circumvented by reasonably clever people, and is relatively annoying for me to use. That's a better idea than just using magic keyed to my identity or based on a password only I know."

From the Evil Overlord list - "Mythical guardians will be instructed to ask visitors name, purpose of visit, and whether they have an appointment instead of ancient riddles." :smallbiggrin:


If you wanted to be really devious though, you could have the answer to the riddle be completely unrelated to the riddle. Effectively, the riddle is just an elaborate password request, with the answer either being predetermined (e.g. regardless of the riddle, the answer is always 'black moonlight') or related to the riddle, but not in a normal way (e.g. it could be the 5th and 10th words).

[Specter]

I have streets but no soil
I have rivers but no water
I have castles but no walls
I have temples but no acolytes

(A map.)

[Regitnui]

I'd really second what Dr Cliche said. It'd be less a riddle and more like a password hint for the lich. The hint for my laptop password is "2GG, 4/4 Multikicker G 2/2 Wolf." While I'm not going to tell you what it means, it's a perfect reminder for me. A lich's riddle would likely be the same way; something that makes perfect sense to the lich but none to an outside observer. A few appropriate examples:


A spellbook representation of the spell magic missile in Draconic.
A sequence of symbols representing a river, forest and ruin; all things near the lich's former hometown.
A circle with pentagrams below it on a wall - A hint at 'Moon'
A series of numbers (7,4,1, 2) followed by a word (Revolution) with a magic mouth asking for a word.
A glowing orb that needs to be hit with certain types of damage to open; Red=Fire, White=Thunder and Blue=Cold. Of course, you want to make sure that the party has the spells prepared...

[MOLOKH]

I had my players go through a set of puzzle doors, and even though they didn't slow the party down too much, I still liked a few.

One had an inscription reading "The more there is, the less you see." The answer is obviously "darkness", but just figuring it out or saying the word does nothing. The door is completely impassable and unbreakable, unless someone casts a Darkness spell centered on it, after which you can walk through as if it weren't there. If you want to be lenient towards your players or they don't have anyone able to cast Darkness or a similar spell, you can rule that putting on a blindfold or simply closing your eyes also allows you to walk through. Basically, the door is there as long as you percieve it visually.

The other door was again a classical riddle - "Only that, which is greater than -insert name- shall open this door." The answer should be "nothing" as most evil wizards and such are usually quite vain, and the door itself isn't locked, so nothing will indeed open it. To mess with the players, I added a bunch of obviously magical keys, made of exotic materials and radiating different energy types - yellow-hot gold, ice-cold silver, wood, bone, paper, stone etc. To disinsentivize too much trial and error with the lock each key did a point of its respective energy damage when picked up. Unless someone figures out the riddle right away, the players are very likely to try all the keys with no result, at which point they should catch on to the actual answer. If you want to make it a little dirtier, you can rule that if they tried any of the keys beforehand, the players actually locked the door, and they need to unlock it by using them in reverse order.

This last one I didn't use, but it works as a defense for a wizard-type villian and it's on almost every site for riddles and puzzles. It's basically a small labyrinth of rooms, connected with doors, and the only way to solve it is to go through all the doors without passing through the same one twice, at which point the last doorway will open up to wherever it's supposed to lead.

[RulesJD]

I quite like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HirxAgPBAZg


There's also this one from Planescape Torment:

"Now, think of words which end in '-GRY.' Angry and hungry are two of them. There are but three words in the Common Tongue... what is the third word? The word is something that one uses every day. If thou hast listened carefully, I have already told thee what it is."

Tongue.

(The whole '-gry' thing is just a distraction.)

Literally every time some game asks for puzzles/riddles, this comic is applicable:

https://xkcd.com/169/


If a party is level 19, they have zero use for passwords. If they can defeat the Lich, they can just magic their way past whatever trap/riddle there is.

[Dr. Cliché]

Literally every time some game asks for puzzles/riddles, this comic is applicable:

https://xkcd.com/169/

Meh, just another reason for the party to hate the lich. :smallwink:

[Temperjoke]

What about riddles as a distraction from the real method of access?

So, the outer rings of the lair are made up of rooms, that rotate and switch position. Each room has a set of 3 colored levers that control how a room rotates and connects to the other rooms, essentially making a maze. With each set of levers is a riddle, with a false answer attached to the each of the levers. The real secret to getting through is to use the lever whose color matches the first letter of the riddle. So if the riddle starts with "What" then you'd pick the white lever, if starts with "It" then it would be the indigo lever. When you get through, the other side has a lever that resets everything randomly. Some of the rooms could even be duplicates, in hopes of confusing the intruders by tricking them into thinking they were in the same room again.

Complex enough to mess with potential intruders, but simple enough for authorized people to get through quickly.

[krugaan]

This may be no help at all, so if that's the case, feel free to disregard it.

But it always confuses me when riddles are used in security that is meant to be commonly utilized by authorized users who should know the systems. Why did the lich set it up with riddles, rather than simply making it a sequence of passwords or random combinations of buttons or some other "nobody but he and those he tells can do this" authorization system.

Riddles make a certain amount of sense if they're meant to test one's knowledge, one's cultural background, or one's reasoning ability. If it's a test-of-worthiness or a "the reincarnation of Bob the Mighty would have an instinctive knowledge of this, once reminded in this way" sort of deal, that makes sense. You don't have a guarantee that the password(s) made it through time and distance to those you WANT to use it, but you want to keep out most people anyway. So you set it up with something solvable by those who have the appropriate skills, talents, spiritual purity, or what-have-you.

But this is a security failsafe for the lich and his minions. Why would he use riddles to secure it, when he'll just treat the riddles' answers as passwords? Why not just use passwords?

Password hints usually don't count as riddles; they rely on personal knowledge that has nothing to do with the kind of general or trivia knowledge on which riddles rely.


Quick someone distract him!

"Hey Segev, I think someone is trying to abuse rules with flawed logic in another thread!"

[pwykersotz]

This may be no help at all, so if that's the case, feel free to disregard it.

But it always confuses me when riddles are used in security that is meant to be commonly utilized by authorized users who should know the systems. Why did the lich set it up with riddles, rather than simply making it a sequence of passwords or random combinations of buttons or some other "nobody but he and those he tells can do this" authorization system.

Riddles make a certain amount of sense if they're meant to test one's knowledge, one's cultural background, or one's reasoning ability. If it's a test-of-worthiness or a "the reincarnation of Bob the Mighty would have an instinctive knowledge of this, once reminded in this way" sort of deal, that makes sense. You don't have a guarantee that the password(s) made it through time and distance to those you WANT to use it, but you want to keep out most people anyway. So you set it up with something solvable by those who have the appropriate skills, talents, spiritual purity, or what-have-you.

But this is a security failsafe for the lich and his minions. Why would he use riddles to secure it, when he'll just treat the riddles' answers as passwords? Why not just use passwords?

Password hints usually don't count as riddles; they rely on personal knowledge that has nothing to do with the kind of general or trivia knowledge on which riddles rely.

One reason is it's actually intuitive/designed to be used. Look at Stargate SG1. The Ancients repeatedly used information that was obvious to them but which were complex puzzles to poor Daniel Jackson. But ultimately the systems were designed to be used, and making the working a "riddle" made it accessible to someone who might otherwise not understand it.

But really, riddles in game work best if solving them is a bonus, but not necessary. Like prophecies. Useful if you figure them out, not a detriment if you don't, fun to think about in hindsight. "When gravity falls and earth becomes sky, fear the beast with just one eye!"

[krugaan]

I'd really second what Dr Cliche said. It'd be less a riddle and more like a password hint for the lich. The hint for my laptop password is "2GG, 4/4 Multikicker G 2/2 Wolf." While I'm not going to tell you what it means, it's a perfect reminder for me. A lich's riddle would likely be the same way; something that makes perfect sense to the lich but none to an outside observer. A few appropriate examples:


That looks suspiciously like a magic card...

[Regitnui]

That looks suspiciously like a magic card...

You didn't see anything.

[krugaan]

You didn't see anything.

dude, i dont even play magic, lol.

might want to make it a wee bit less obvious.

[Segev]

Quick someone distract him!

"Hey Segev, I think someone is trying to abuse rules with flawed logic in another thread!"

Those monsters! I'll riddle them ... with the holes in their own logic!!!! :smallfurious:

[krugaan]

Those monsters! I'll riddle them ... with the holes in their own logic!!!! :smallfurious:

Hahahah, I just imagined one of those '30s ('40s?) gangsters from the movies ... Segev "the Butcher" Malone (made up name, don't google it):

NYAH! You ain't gonna fool me, copper, NYAH!

Don't try any funny business with me, see? I'll riddle you[r argument] fulla holes, see? NYAH!

edit: Segev is the first member of the "Logic Mobsters", mahahhaha... SEE? NYAH!

[Jera]

So I came up with a fun Haiku/riddle about 10 years ago, that you can easily fit into a trap/door as there are multiple ways, it can be answered as the riddle itself can have 4-5 answers depending on how you read it.

Now it would be no fun to just give you the answer but here's the riddle/puzzle as I used it.

Before you, there is a door with no visible hinges, locks, or handle, when you get closer to the door [Druid and sorcerer who know Language: Elemental] are able to see the following poem

Death and destruction
a black wind brings; on the back
of butterfly wings

[krugaan]

So I came up with a fun Haiku/riddle about 10 years ago, that you can easily fit into a trap/door as there are multiple ways, it can be answered as the riddle itself can have 4-5 answers depending on how you read it.

Now it would be no fun to just give you the answer but here's the riddle/puzzle as I used it.

Before you, there is a door with no visible hinges, locks, or handle, when you get closer to the door [Druid and sorcerer who know Language: Elemental] are able to see the following poem

Death and destruction
a black wind brings; on the back
of butterfly wings

give us a hint: if you answer the riddle, does it open the door -OR- does it outline something you need to do to open the door?

[Dr. Cliché]

So I came up with a fun Haiku/riddle about 10 years ago, that you can easily fit into a trap/door as there are multiple ways, it can be answered as the riddle itself can have 4-5 answers depending on how you read it.

Now it would be no fun to just give you the answer but here's the riddle/puzzle as I used it.

Before you, there is a door with no visible hinges, locks, or handle, when you get closer to the door [Druid and sorcerer who know Language: Elemental] are able to see the following poem

Death and destruction
a black wind brings; on the back
of butterfly wings

I don't know if this is even remotely close to the answer (or one of them), but all I could think of was this: http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Quantum_weather_butterflies :smalltongue:

[Hrugner]

"If you are reading this, I am dead. My wealth of knowledge has gone on where you can't follow or shouldn't want to. I'm sure I've fallen to the pits were flame will once again torment me. Remember to feed the cat and leave the door open when you leave."

This of course being a list of various traps that need to be set off and survived, in order, to keep the treasure rooms from collapsing. His wealth is in a place you don't want to be, at the bottom of a pit trap, through some sort of lava or flame wall. Bring food for the giant cat. Prop the final treasure room door open with something or it will swing shut and trap you.

[krugaan]

"If you are reading this, I am dead. My wealth of knowledge has gone on where you can't follow or shouldn't want to. I'm sure I've fallen to the pits were flame will once again torment me. Remember to feed the cat and leave the door open when you leave."

This of course being a list of various traps that need to be set off and survived, in order, to keep the treasure rooms from collapsing. His wealth is in a place you don't want to be, at the bottom of a pit trap, through some sort of lava or flame wall. Bring food for the giant cat. Prop the final treasure room door open with something or it will swing shut and trap you.

I rather like that one, it's clever but not too hard, even if it sounds a tad... casual. Also, I'm not sure why the lich would leave a message like that helping the adventurers after his death.

[Hrugner]

I think he just really wants to make sure his pet cat gets fed and let out.

Alternately, it's a good chance to swing another plot hook in. The lich could have a few things in the hoard that point out his role as the lesser of two evils and how killing him has created some greater more existential threat that needs to be addressed. If he can give the players a push in the right direction to stopping that threat in a way that requires he be brought back to life, all the better.

[Temperjoke]

I think he just really wants to make sure his pet cat gets fed and let out.



What if the cat was actually the one in charge and wanted to ensure that he had a way out?

[Hrugner]

What if the cat was actually the one in charge and wanted to ensure that he had a way out?

So the cat left the note? Alright, I like that better.

[unwise]

My players really liked this one:

'Twas whispered in Heaven, 'twas muttered in Hell,
And echo caught faintly the sound as it fell;
On the confines of Earth, 'twas permitted to rest,
And in the depths of the ocean its presence confessed;
'Twill be found in the sphere when 'tis riven asunder,
Be seen in the lightning and heard in the thunder;
'Twas allotted to man with his earliest breath,
Attends him at birth and awaits him at death,
Presides o'er his happiness, honor and health,
Is the prop of his house and the end of his wealth.
In the heaps of the miser, 'tis hoarded with care,
But is sure to be lost on his prodigal heir;
It begins every hope, every wish it must bound;
With the husbandman toils, and with monarchs is crowned;
Without it the soldier and seaman may roam,
But woe to the wretch who expels it from home!
In the whispers of conscience its voice will be found,
Nor e'er in the whirlwind of passion be drowned;
'Twill soften the heart; but though deaf be the ear,
It will make him acutely and instantly hear.
Set in shade, let it rest like a delicate flower;
Ah! Breathe on it softly, it dies in an hour.

Of course you need a few print outs of it. Int checks and spending time led to more clues about the method for solving it. They finally made a list of the things that it is in and the things it is not and it was not so hard from there.

[krugaan]

My players really liked this one:

'Twas whispered in Heaven, 'twas muttered in Hell,
And echo caught faintly the sound as it fell;
On the confines of Earth, 'twas permitted to rest,
And in the depths of the ocean its presence confessed;
'Twill be found in the sphere when 'tis riven asunder,
Be seen in the lightning and heard in the thunder;
'Twas allotted to man with his earliest breath,
Attends him at birth and awaits him at death,
Presides o'er his happiness, honor and health,
Is the prop of his house and the end of his wealth.
In the heaps of the miser, 'tis hoarded with care,
But is sure to be lost on his prodigal heir;
It begins every hope, every wish it must bound;
With the husbandman toils, and with monarchs is crowned;
Without it the soldier and seaman may roam,
But woe to the wretch who expels it from home!
In the whispers of conscience its voice will be found,
Nor e'er in the whirlwind of passion be drowned;
'Twill soften the heart; but though deaf be the ear,
It will make him acutely and instantly hear.
Set in shade, let it rest like a delicate flower;
Ah! Breathe on it softly, it dies in an hour.

Of course you need a few print outs of it. Int checks and spending time led to more clues about the method for solving it. They finally made a list of the things that it is in and the things it is not and it was not so hard from there.

That one is eloquent but not so hard, because it's so damn long and gives you so many clues. Didn't ... Tennyson write that one? Some famous person.

edit: it's a *lot* harder when you only hear the riddle.

[Pex]

"If you are reading this, I am dead. My wealth of knowledge has gone on where you can't follow or shouldn't want to. I'm sure I've fallen to the pits were flame will once again torment me. Remember to feed the cat and leave the door open when you leave."

This of course being a list of various traps that need to be set off and survived, in order, to keep the treasure rooms from collapsing. His wealth is in a place you don't want to be, at the bottom of a pit trap, through some sort of lava or flame wall. Bring food for the giant cat. Prop the final treasure room door open with something or it will swing shut and trap you.

I like this. I really, really like this.

[FaradayCage]

Riddles are great because they encourage an engaging discussion among the players that doesn't boil down to Paladin vs. Rogue.

I think they have a place even if it blocks the adventure from progressing. After an appropriate amount of time, it's fine to say "I think Player A is on the right track" as a hint (or give any sort of hint really). The "fun" for the players is being challenged by the DM to solve a riddle before too many hints render it obvious. This happened in a spycraft game when we searched a dead body everywhere (and I do mean "everywhere", I had x-ray specs) for a secret message. Eventually a hint was dropped that led us to believe it was in the form of tattoos only visible under black lights. There was appropriate foreshadowing that it was a possibility (hard to explain how) and one of the players even made a note of it prior to discovering the body. Unfortunately he didn't remember that insight when it was time to throw down. We would have been so proud!

Anyway. Riddles are super hard to come up with which is probably why cRPGs recycle the same famous answers of "time, age, love, song, wind, etc."

I've come up with a few original (I think) ones, this is probably the cleanest:

"Water is the dwelling of I. Telling things backward, but I never lie."

[Ketiara]

This may be no help at all, so if that's the case, feel free to disregard it.

But it always confuses me when riddles are used in security that is meant to be commonly utilized by authorized users who should know the systems. Why did the lich set it up with riddles, rather than simply making it a sequence of passwords or random combinations of buttons or some other "nobody but he and those he tells can do this" authorization system.

Riddles make a certain amount of sense if they're meant to test one's knowledge, one's cultural background, or one's reasoning ability. If it's a test-of-worthiness or a "the reincarnation of Bob the Mighty would have an instinctive knowledge of this, once reminded in this way" sort of deal, that makes sense. You don't have a guarantee that the password(s) made it through time and distance to those you WANT to use it, but you want to keep out most people anyway. So you set it up with something solvable by those who have the appropriate skills, talents, spiritual purity, or what-have-you.

But this is a security failsafe for the lich and his minions. Why would he use riddles to secure it, when he'll just treat the riddles' answers as passwords? Why not just use passwords?

Password hints usually don't count as riddles; they rely on personal knowledge that has nothing to do with the kind of general or trivia knowledge on which riddles rely.

I came across your response, and realized this was my problem! I have a Lich 1000+ years old, and granted this inst where he is hiding his psylactary but its still a treasury, and or deposit for the lich to get stuff from time to time. That being said, the sucker may only visit this place every 100 year or more for that matter, so he need a hard enough code or whatever for intruders to be stuck, and he need some way to remind him of this particular password to this particular treasury.

What would he do, and how would he do it... Some child riddle would be unfitting, and not fair to the lich's intellect. Would it be "insert childhood street name, or name of first pet"? or could it be something cool lich feel and/or still guessable for the pc's... and keep in mind, they wont loose anything but "too much treasure" if they dont get it.''

I really hope I make myself clear! And I see by some of you guys posts that I dont. English isnt my native language, and very happy that you still take the time to read, understand and reply to my posts!

[Jera]

give us a hint: if you answer the riddle, does it open the door -OR- does it outline something you need to do to open the door?

For this the riddle tells you what you need to open the door.

This is a pretty big hint but if the answer was fire(it's not) you'd need to cast a fire based spell on it to activate the door. I will tell you that the group consisted of a level 16 wild shaping druid, a level 15 sorcerer who loved lightning, a lvl 16 cleric of Pelor, and a level 16 Fighter.

In the campaign they had just killed a Lich Sorcerer and was looking for his Phylactery. The first time they met him he attempted to blast them off the top of a tower with a powerful gust of wind.



I don't know if this is even remotely close to the answer (or one of them), but all I could think of was this: http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Quantum_weather_butterflies :smalltongue:

Not 100% correct but you're on the right path.

[krugaan]

For this the riddle tells you what you need to open the door.

This is a pretty big hint but if the answer was fire(it's not) you'd need to cast a fire based spell on it to activate the door. I will tell you that the group consisted of a level 16 wild shaping druid, a level 15 sorcerer who loved lightning, a lvl 16 cleric of Pelor, and a level 16 Fighter.

In the campaign they had just killed a Lich Sorcerer and was looking for his Phylactery. The first time they met him he attempted to blast them off the top of a tower with a powerful gust of wind.

Not 100% correct but you're on the right path.

Ah, im never going to get it, i didn't play 3e.

[Socratov]

I'd really second what Dr Cliche said. It'd be less a riddle and more like a password hint for the lich. The hint for my laptop password is "2GG, 4/4 Multikicker G 2/2 Wolf." While I'm not going to tell you what it means, it's a perfect reminder for me. A lich's riddle would likely be the same way; something that makes perfect sense to the lich but none to an outside observer. A few appropriate examples:
that took only 5 minutes, including setting up the search, but then again, I recognised the notation, so that actually proves your point...


A spellbook representation of the spell magic missile in Draconic.
A sequence of symbols representing a river, forest and ruin; all things near the lich's former hometown.
A circle with pentagrams below it on a wall - A hint at 'Moon'
A series of numbers (7,4,1, 2) followed by a word (Revolution) with a magic mouth asking for a word.
A glowing orb that needs to be hit with certain types of damage to open; Red=Fire, White=Thunder and Blue=Cold. Of course, you want to make sure that the party has the spells prepared...


I like riddles to generate a choice to create either a short-cut, to reveal some items to make life easier ro to enable the party to access with less resources expended. That way the riddle does not become an unsurmountable wall, but will definitely be interesting to try and solve since solving the riddle will have benefits that would outweigh the cost of time solving it.

[Segev]

I came across your response, and realized this was my problem! I have a Lich 1000+ years old, and granted this inst where he is hiding his psylactary but its still a treasury, and or deposit for the lich to get stuff from time to time. That being said, the sucker may only visit this place every 100 year or more for that matter, so he need a hard enough code or whatever for intruders to be stuck, and he need some way to remind him of this particular password to this particular treasury.

What would he do, and how would he do it... Some child riddle would be unfitting, and not fair to the lich's intellect. Would it be "insert childhood street name, or name of first pet"? or could it be something cool lich feel and/or still guessable for the pc's... and keep in mind, they wont loose anything but "too much treasure" if they dont get it.''

I really hope I make myself clear! And I see by some of you guys posts that I dont. English isnt my native language, and very happy that you still take the time to read, understand and reply to my posts!
In that case, what he needs is a password hint, not a "riddle" in the traditional sense (wherein they were as much intellectual word-game as protection). To that end, I suggest something that is entirely easy to obscure, but which, if you know it's "the password hint," is clear to the lich.

Perhaps, for example, it's the image of a beautiful woman with eyes closed worked into the columns lining the entryway. The very first trap is that they're Carytid Columns (a type of stone golem) that activate if you cross a certain point in the room. But they, and all else, deactivate if you say, "Go to sleep, Andalea; it's me," in Halfling. What is probably inobvious is that the columns look like a Halfling girl the lich knew in his life, named Andalea. Be sure to describe the eyes of the golems opening when they activate, as the final subtle hint.

Or, another possible example, a snarling toothless dragon is in a mural. Place ivory fangs in its mouth in a particular way to unlock the vault. This is a very specific dragon and the lich knows it was missing two specific teeth. There are enough ivory fangs to fill its mouth exactly in the bowl provided.


My players really liked this one:

'Twas whispered in Heaven, 'twas muttered in Hell,
And echo caught faintly the sound as it fell;
On the confines of Earth, 'twas permitted to rest,
And in the depths of the ocean its presence confessed;
'Twill be found in the sphere when 'tis riven asunder,
Be seen in the lightning and heard in the thunder;
'Twas allotted to man with his earliest breath,
Attends him at birth and awaits him at death,
Presides o'er his happiness, honor and health,
Is the prop of his house and the end of his wealth.
In the heaps of the miser, 'tis hoarded with care,
But is sure to be lost on his prodigal heir;
It begins every hope, every wish it must bound;
With the husbandman toils, and with monarchs is crowned;
Without it the soldier and seaman may roam,
But woe to the wretch who expels it from home!
In the whispers of conscience its voice will be found,
Nor e'er in the whirlwind of passion be drowned;
'Twill soften the heart; but though deaf be the ear,
It will make him acutely and instantly hear.
Set in shade, let it rest like a delicate flower;
Ah! Breathe on it softly, it dies in an hour.

Of course you need a few print outs of it. Int checks and spending time led to more clues about the method for solving it. They finally made a list of the things that it is in and the things it is not and it was not so hard from there.

I confess that I feel dumb, but I can't figure it out.

[Regitnui]

I confess that I feel dumb, but I can't figure it out.

Avoid if you don't want the answer!

It's the letter H

[Dr. Cliché]

Avoid if you don't want the answer!

It's the letter H

I hate you. So much.

[Segev]

Avoid if you don't want the answer!

It's the letter H

Now I feel less dumb, since while that is present in every word listed, it doesn't, for instance, "crown" the word "monarch." I did consider it based on the opening line, but the way the rest of it goes, it gets less and less likely, to my mind. :smallmad:

Nevertheless, thank you for the answer.

[krugaan]

Now I feel less dumb, since while that is present in every word listed, it doesn't, for instance, "crown" the word "monarch." I did consider it based on the opening line, but the way the rest of it goes, it gets less and less likely, to my mind. :smallmad:

Nevertheless, thank you for the answer.

Reading it again, the last two lines don't scan correctly... the heck? There's extra syllables or something.

I like riddles, because they require lateral thinking, something I think everyone could be better at. I'm not particularly good at riddles either.

I like to think I'm better at jokes, though, and humor involves a similar kind of thought process.

[gfishfunk]

How much pitch could a lich (or witch) itch, if a bit of pitch caused a lich (or witch) to itch at the pitch?

[Dr. Cliché]

Now I feel less dumb, since while that is present in every word listed, it doesn't, for instance, "crown" the word "monarch." I did consider it based on the opening line, but the way the rest of it goes, it gets less and less likely, to my mind. :smallmad:

Nevertheless, thank you for the answer.

Yeah, for me this goes way beyond poetic/metaphoric licence and just descends into nonsense and outright lies.

I mean, take the line 'Twas allotted to man with his earliest breath'. Given how it's written, the H should be in 'man', not 'breath'.

And how in the 9 hells is the letter H 'lost on his prodigal heir'?

[krugaan]

And how in the 9 hells is the letter H 'lost on his prodigal heir'?

because the H is silent!

there's a bit of poetic license in it. Like I said, it's a bit too long.

[Regitnui]

Ninja'd


Yeah, for me this goes way beyond poetic/metaphoric licence and just descends into nonsense and outright lies.

I mean, take the line 'Twas allotted to man with his earliest breath'. Given how it's written, the H should be in 'man', not 'breath'.

And how in the 9 hells is the letter H 'lost on his prodigal heir'?

Pronounce the word "heir". It's a bit of wordplay, along with "breathe softly" ('h' is a soft sound in that word) "lest it be lost in an hour" (again, pronounce 'hour'.) I'm not going to claim it's a great riddle. It does drag on a little too long and pushes it's premise a bit too hard, but it does have enough clever lines for a shorter, better riddle.


I hate you. So much.

What? He (she? they?) asked. It might help that I've seen similar, shorter, riddles in the same vein before.

[TentacleSurpris]

...but still able for a lvl 19 party to crack.

lets say its a panel of lights, runes or words that need to be ordered in some way, or it may be a riddle. The main point is that It should be solvable by normal humans (most likely drunk humans) any good experiences or ideas you guys would like to pass on?


Here's a puzzle I've used before.

Give the players ten identical coins. Use real coins as props.

The challenge is that they must arrange ten coins into exactly five rows of exactly four coins each to open the portal.

The solution is...

The players must figure out that a pentagram, a five-pointed star with a circle around it, is the solution. The coins are placed on each of the intersections of the lines of the star as well as on the tips of the star.

Drop a hint earlier in the adventure, describe some decorations of pentagrams so that the players can have some clue. Watch them struggle for an hour.

[krugaan]

here's one from a long time ago, I had to look it up:

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard
But yet in an orchestra never was seen;
I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly.
Darkness destroys me and light is my death;
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath.
If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can.

ignore the last two lines, they don't fit (at least in modern usage). The 4th to last line is also a bit questionable, imo.

[Socratov]

here's one from a long time ago, I had to look it up:

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard
But yet in an orchestra never was seen;
I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly.
Darkness destroys me and light is my death;
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath.
If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can.

ignore the last two lines, they don't fit (at least in modern usage). The 4th to last line is also a bit questionable, imo.

is it mole?

[krugaan]

is it mole?

no. Every clue except the ones I mentioned fit. I didn't solve this one, personally, but some clues are easier than others, and then the rest kinda fall into place.

This ones involves a *lot* of lateral thinking in my opinion. It's pretty hard. Certainly the hardest one I've seen that's still very elegant. If you want hard and non-elegant, there's always Fermat's Last theorem or something, lol.

[Regitnui]

I want to say "wind", Krugaan, but that doesn't seem completely right.

[krugaan]

I want to say "wind", Krugaan, but that doesn't seem completely right.

No. Well, im sure you can stretch almost any answer to fit, but the "elegant" answer is not that.

A tiny hint:

It has breath and can die, both are mentioned twice.

[Jera]

Ah, im never going to get it, i didn't play 3e.


Answer
The riddle is a play on the idea that [a butterfly flapping their wings in China can cause a tornado/tsunami/hurricane/whatever on the other side of the world.] The answer to the official riddle can be Chaos Theory, Torando, Hurricane, or Tsunami; I left it fairly open as to how they could open the actual door, but basically they needed to hit it with a magical element of a storm ie wind, lightning, thunder, or water.

[krugaan]

Answer
The riddle is a play on the idea that [a butterfly flapping their wings in China can cause a tornado/tsunami/hurricane/whatever on the other side of the world.] The answer to the official riddle can be Chaos Theory, Torando, Hurricane, or Tsunami; I left it fairly open as to how they could open the actual door, but basically they needed to hit it with a magical element of a storm ie wind, lightning, thunder, or water.



hah. would be even more thematic if they had to do that somewhere other than the door, lol.

[Dr. Cliché]

Pronounce the word "heir". It's a bit of wordplay, along with "breathe softly" ('h' is a soft sound in that word) "lest it be lost in an hour" (again, pronounce 'hour'.)

As I said, to me it goes beyond wordplay and into outright lying.



What? He (she? they?) asked. It might help that I've seen similar, shorter, riddles in the same vein before.

It was intended more as a response to the answer of the riddle.

[krugaan]

More hints, spoilered so you can use as few or as many as you like:

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard
But yet in an orchestra never was seen;
loudest of voices in "orchestra"...

I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly.

what can swim and fly (besides a bird, which it expressly is not from the previous couplet)

Darkness destroys me and light is my death;
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath.

"stop" as in "hold" ... what regularly holds it's breath?

If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can.

[Dr. Cliché]

Honestly, I think those hints confused me even more. :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Having given up and looked up the answer online... the history of this riddle starts with it as an "unsolved" one, with the answers given (in two separate contests, where the answers were judged "right" by a panel of judges who looked over answers and their reasoning) being...extremely unsatisfying and forced on a number of lines.

Given the hints presented, I know which answer he's looking for, but both fail with the last two lines, and have no real point to the fourth-to-last.

I find them inelegant. An elegant answer to all the lines would be pretty cool, as it's a neat poem-style riddle in presentation.

[krugaan]

big hint then:

it swims, "flies", breathes, and dies, so it's some sort of animal.

You can't think too exactly, because at some point the analogy of each clue breaks down.

The answer, if you're too frustrated:

a whale.

The loudest syllable in "orchestra" is "orch-" which implies "orca", but obviously there are no whales in an actual orchestra.

"Gay plumage" refers to the blowhole spout, which is a sort of plume. "less like a bird" just means it's not a bird in the taxonomic sense, although it does have "wings".

Touching earth refers to beaching, which does happen, and obviously the majority of whales die in the water.

In earth could refer to beaching or being buried (not the greatest clue), but whale swim, and fly and when they breach.

They can't keep alive without stopping their breath because they have to dive for food.

[krugaan]

Having given up and looked up the answer online... the history of this riddle starts with it as an "unsolved" one, with the answers given (in two separate contests, where the answers were judged "right" by a panel of judges who looked over answers and their reasoning) being...extremely unsatisfying and forced on a number of lines.

Given the hints presented, I know which answer he's looking for, but both fail with the last two lines, and have no real point to the fourth-to-last.

I find them inelegant. An elegant answer to all the lines would be pretty cool, as it's a neat poem-style riddle in presentation.

well, phooey on you. The fourth line *is* excessively poetic, but the last two lines refer to some anachronism which I didn't understand but probably made sense way back when.

[Segev]

well, phooey on you. The fourth line *is* excessively poetic, but the last two lines refer to some anachronism which I didn't understand but probably made sense way back when.

I've found nothing on any justifying anachronism for the last two lines. Nothing about a whale is historically more in tune one way or the other. I also don't think, from the time when it might've mattered, the concepts regarding the breath stoppage were so well known as to be riddle fodder.

[Dr. Cliché]

big hint then:

it swims, "flies", breathes, and dies, so it's some sort of animal.

You can't think too exactly, because at some point the analogy of each clue breaks down.

The answer, if you're too frustrated:

a whale.

The loudest syllable in "orchestra" is "orch-" which implies "orca", but obviously there are no whales in an actual orchestra.

"Gay plumage" refers to the blowhole spout, which is a sort of plume. "less like a bird" just means it's not a bird in the taxonomic sense, although it does have "wings".

Touching earth refers to beaching, which does happen, and obviously the majority of whales die in the water.

In earth could refer to beaching or being buried (not the greatest clue), but whale swim, and fly and when they breach.

They can't keep alive without stopping their breath because they have to dive for food.

If I gave my players that riddle, I think they'd be well within their rights to hurl the DMG at my head.

Most of those are already really stretching it, but 'flies'? Come on. Breaching the surface is not flying. Not even by the loosest, most poetic description. I guess every time I jump in the air I'm flying too then? See, this is exactly what I mean by riddles that just lie to you. They're not clever, they're just irritating.

[krugaan]

I've found nothing on any justifying anachronism for the last two lines. Nothing about a whale is historically more in tune one way or the other. I also don't think, from the time when it might've mattered, the concepts regarding the breath stoppage were so well known as to be riddle fodder.

well, I think it's fairly well known that whales hold their breath to dive, but that's subjective I suppose.

the last two lines are a reference to "wale"? dunno, google not turning anything up. The "light is my death" is whale oil, which was used in lamps way back when.


If I gave my players that riddle, I think they'd be well within their rights to hurl the DMG at my head.

Most of those are already really stretching it, but 'flies'? Come on. Breaching the surface is not flying. Not even by the loosest, most poetic description. I guess every time I jump in the air I'm flying too then? See, this is exactly what I mean by riddles that just lie to you. They're not clever, they're just irritating.

Well, I like it, lateral thinking, blah blah. Any better riddles you can suggest? You guys don't seem to like figurative speech at all ... or at least riddles you don't think are "fair".

[Segev]

well, I think it's fairly well known that whales hold their breath to dive, but that's subjective I suppose.

the last two lines are a reference to "wale"? dunno, google not turning anything up. The "light is my death" is whale oil, which was used in lamps way back when.



Well, I like it, lateral thinking, blah blah. Any better riddles you can suggest? You guys don't seem to like figurative speech at all ... or at least riddles you don't think are "fair".

Lateral thinking isn't "well this could, if you stretch the definition enough, possibly qualify." It's thinking of something with facts not in evidence, perhaps, though most lateral thinking puzzle games are actually Yes/No games, so you can fish around to close to the answer.

For instance: "A man lies dead next to the rock that killed him. What is his profession?" is a lateral thinking puzzle with a very specific answer that makes sense, but for which you need more information to nail down how you get from one to the other. You can ask questions, and the person who posed the puzzle is allowed to say "yes," "no," or "irrelevant" as answers to them.


Not good riddles, mind, due to the question-and-answer portion. But good lateral thinking.

Riddles in the Dark (mostly) had good riddles.

Alive without breath
As cold as death.
Never thirsty; ever drinking;
All in mail, never clinking.

This one is accurate on all fronts once you realize the answer is a fish.

[krugaan]

Lateral thinking isn't "well this could, if you stretch the definition enough, possibly qualify." It's thinking of something with facts not in evidence, perhaps, though most lateral thinking puzzle games are actually Yes/No games, so you can fish around to close to the answer.

For instance: "A man lies dead next to the rock that killed him. What is his profession?" is a lateral thinking puzzle with a very specific answer that makes sense, but for which you need more information to nail down how you get from one to the other. You can ask questions, and the person who posed the puzzle is allowed to say "yes," "no," or "irrelevant" as answers to them.


Not good riddles, mind, due to the question-and-answer portion. But good lateral thinking.

Riddles in the Dark (mostly) had good riddles.

Alive without breath
As cold as death.
Never thirsty; ever drinking;
All in mail, never clinking.


maybe lateral thinking isn't quite the right term, but the concept is sort of similar. The clues, well, poetic ones, are like a probability cloud that reduce the search space (rather than provide outright limitations).

It's still logical thinking, of a sort.

Alive without breath - a "living thing" that doesn't breath? something abstract or simply an organism that doesn't breath, fish or bacteria or something

As cold as death - doesn't necessarily rule out abstract, although it does seem to rule out bacteria or other non-breathing organisms ... just not warm blooded ones?

Never thirsty, ever drinking - wat? is it a causal relationship? oh, or it lives in water. Water creature. cold blooded one.

Clad in mail, never clinking - mail as in armor or literal mail? whatever it is, it's silent. Crocs are armored reptiles, which are cold blooded and live in water? or mail... sharks? I guess croc and shark skin don't count as mail? I guess fish fits better, scales fit mail better.

Fish?

edit: yeah fish, I erased that part of the quote so I wouldn't look at it.

edit2: the rock one ... is he a thief that got shot in a botched burglary?

[Hrugner]

More hints, spoilered so you can use as few or as many as you like:

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard
But yet in an orchestra never was seen;
loudest of voices in "orchestra"...

I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly.

what can swim and fly (besides a bird, which it expressly is not from the previous couplet)

Darkness destroys me and light is my death;
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath.

"stop" as in "hold" ... what regularly holds it's breath?

If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can.

I see the meaning you want, but it looks like swan is a better fit.

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard = trumpet swan (yep, brass is tops)
But yet in an orchestra never was seen; = mute swan (don't bring your mute to the performance)

I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been. = black swan, a metaphorical nonexistent thing or event that is rationalized after the fact.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly. =touching earth is a hunted swan. In water I die/in earth I lose breath refers to swans singing in flight or on land but not while swimming.


Darkness destroys me and light is my death; = cygnus is the swan constellation. missing if it is dark(overcast) or when the sun comes up
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath. = mute swan again


If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can. = you can guess only things you don't know. A young swan is a cygnet. And a familial signet will be known to a boy and a man but can only be guessed at by a woman whose signet could change through marriage.

[krugaan]

I see the meaning you want, but it looks like swan is a better fit.

I'm the loudest of voices in orchestra heard = trumpet swan (yep, brass is tops)
But yet in an orchestra never was seen; = mute swan (don't bring your mute to the performance)

I'm a bird of gay plumage, but less like a bird
Nothing in Nature ever has been. = black swan, a metaphorical nonexistent thing or event that is rationalized after the fact.
Touching earth I expire, in water I die,
In earth I lose breath, I can swim, I can fly. =touching earth is a hunted swan. In water I die/in earth I lose breath refers to swans singing in flight or on land but not while swimming.


Darkness destroys me and light is my death; = cygnus is the swan constellation. missing if it is dark(overcast) or when the sun comes up
I can't keep alive without stopping my breath. = mute swan again


If my name can't be guessed by a boy or a man,
By a girl or a woman it certainly can. = you can guess only things you don't know. A young swan is a cygnet. And a familial signet will be known to a boy and a man but can only be guessed at by a woman whose signet could change through marriage.

That's a good one too, although not as good as swan, I feel. As noted, the original puzzle was notoriously unsolved, but the "best" solution as voted on was whale.

I think the clues for touching earth and what not fit better for whale, but that is entirely subjective. Also, the Cygnus constellation being dark when overcast is symptomatic of *all* constellations, not just Cygnus, but again, subjective. The signet thing is an interesting thing I had not thought of.

[smcmike]

Fun thread.

I always liked the maze from The Name of The Rose as a model for how to use riddles. Just a series of rooms with phrases above the interconnecting doors, and the correct path simply requires that you use the first letters to spell out the password. Getting the password in the first place is a whole different challenge, of course - maybe even a riddle.

The fun thing about this is that, with a magic maze, you can do all sorts of things. Summoned monsters or traps in all incorrect rooms, or endless wandering, or multiple paths using multiple passwords to get to different places.

I also like the idea of creating geometrically impossible mazes, without explicitly telling the characters. A maze made up of equal pentagonal rooms (without bulky filler walls), for instance. Let the failure to map it tell the players that it's a magic maze.

[Regitnui]

A sealed box without lock or lid
A golden treasure inside is hid.

I think an interesting way to do a non-euclidean maze, especially a tower like the ones from TESIV: Oblivion, would be to stack room maps on top of each other as the party makes it through. They then have a record of how to get back, but also get to fully appreciate the sense of moving through an impossible location. Nothing quite like having a 10ft wide passage pass through a 5ft. pillar to get a sense of multilevel geometry gone wrong.

[Segev]

maybe lateral thinking isn't quite the right term, but the concept is sort of similar. The clues, well, poetic ones, are like a probability cloud that reduce the search space (rather than provide outright limitations).

It's still logical thinking, of a sort.

Alive without breath - a "living thing" that doesn't breath? something abstract or simply an organism that doesn't breath, fish or bacteria or something

As cold as death - doesn't necessarily rule out abstract, although it does seem to rule out bacteria or other non-breathing organisms ... just not warm blooded ones?

Never thirsty, ever drinking - wat? is it a causal relationship? oh, or it lives in water. Water creature. cold blooded one.

Clad in mail, never clinking - mail as in armor or literal mail? whatever it is, it's silent. Crocs are armored reptiles, which are cold blooded and live in water? or mail... sharks? I guess croc and shark skin don't count as mail? I guess fish fits better, scales fit mail better.

Fish?Well done! And yeah, that's why I like that one, because it (like the box without hinges, key, or lid, in another poster's quote) really does fit the definitions.


the rock one ... is he a thief that got shot in a botched burglary?No. :smallsmile:

[krugaan]

No. :smallsmile:

Curses! Is this the part where I get to ask questions?

I'm going to go ahead and assume profession is integral to the riddle, so ... was the man killed with the rock while performing a function of his profession?

[Hrugner]

Does the term "lays dead" have two meanings?

[Dr. Cliché]

Lateral thinking isn't "well this could, if you stretch the definition enough, possibly qualify." It's thinking of something with facts not in evidence, perhaps, though most lateral thinking puzzle games are actually Yes/No games, so you can fish around to close to the answer.

For instance: "A man lies dead next to the rock that killed him. What is his profession?" is a lateral thinking puzzle with a very specific answer that makes sense, but for which you need more information to nail down how you get from one to the other. You can ask questions, and the person who posed the puzzle is allowed to say "yes," "no," or "irrelevant" as answers to them.


Not good riddles, mind, due to the question-and-answer portion. But good lateral thinking.

Riddles in the Dark (mostly) had good riddles.

Alive without breath
As cold as death.
Never thirsty; ever drinking;
All in mail, never clinking.

This one is accurate on all fronts once you realize the answer is a fish.

This.

And yeah, I like that fish riddle.
- Fish are alive but don't breathe.
- They're cold-blooded (water has a high specific heat capacity, so is very good at keeping a relatively constant temperature)
- They are always drinking in that they constantly process water through their gills to extract oxygen.
- They're covered in scales like armour, but which doesn't clink.

Here are a few riddles for you chaps:

1)Always do I tell the truth, yet cannot speak.
Look to me and see what really is.

2)I have two heads but one body.
The more I stand still the faster I run.

3)Try to defeat me but try in vain.
When I win I end your pain

4)I am free for the taking through all of your life, though given but once at birth. I am less than nothing in weight, but will fell the strongest of you if held.

5)The life I lead is mere hours or less, I serve all my time by being consumed. I am quickest when thin, slowest when fat, and wind is the bane of the gift that I bring.

[krugaan]

This.

And yeah, I like that fish riddle.
- Fish are alive but don't breathe.
- They're cold-blooded (water has a high specific heat capacity, so is very good at keeping a relatively constant temperature)
- They are always drinking in that they constantly process water through their gills to extract oxygen.
- They're covered in scales like armour, but which doesn't clink.

Here are a few riddles for you chaps:

1)Always do I tell the truth, yet cannot speak.
Look to me and see what really is.

Mirror

2)I have two heads but one body.
The more I stand still the faster I run.

Hourglass

3)Try to defeat me but try in vain.
When I win I end your pain

Death

4)I am free for the taking through all of your life, though given but once at birth. I am less than nothing in weight, but will fell the strongest of you if held.

Breath

5)The life I lead is mere hours or less, I serve all my time by being consumed. I am quickest when thin, slowest when fat, and wind is the bane of the gift that I bring.

Rain or clouds?

[Dr. Cliché]

Correct on all but the last one.

[Regitnui]

DC 14 Intelligence check...

#5 is a candle

[Dr. Cliché]

DC 14 Intelligence check...

#5 is a candle

Yep. :smallsmile:

[Gurston]

If you don’t mind you lich having gone a bit odd with age(for the setting). Then he could have started making illusion games to entertain himself over the years of immortality and challenges his visitors to a game, then pull out a phone and lay down a score of tetris, angry birds or some other game that takes your fancy. Then the players have to beat the score (you could use skill checks by the characters to apply a modifier to the score).

[Regitnui]

If you don’t mind you lich having gone a bit odd with age(for the setting). Then he could have started making illusion games to entertain himself over the years of immortality and challenges his visitors to a game, then pull out a phone and lay down a score of tetris, angry birds or some other game that takes your fancy. Then the players have to beat the score (you could use skill checks by the characters to apply a modifier to the score).

Of course, the lich is playing dragonchess or conqueror against them, but I like the way you think.

[Segev]

Curses! Is this the part where I get to ask questions?Yes. :smallsmile:


I'm going to go ahead and assume profession is integral to the riddle, so ... was the man killed with the rock while performing a function of his profession?Irrelevant.


Does the term "lays dead" have two meanings?For purposes of this puzzle, no.

Good questions!




If you go with the Lich challenging them to a game because he created this game to play against himself, I suggest a full-on simulacrum of the lich be the opponent.

[Dr. Cliché]

For instance: "A man lies dead next to the rock that killed him. What is his profession?".

Did he die from hitting the rock, or from the rock hitting him?

[Segev]

Did he die from hitting the rock, or from the rock hitting him?

No. :smallsmile:

[Dr. Cliché]

No. :smallsmile:

Is that a no to both?

If not,

1) Did he die as a result of him hitting the rock?

2) Did he die as a result of the rock hitting him?

[Segev]

Is that a no to both?

If not,

1) Did he die as a result of him hitting the rock?

2) Did he die as a result of the rock hitting him?

While I could have fun saying "Yes, no, no," in the interests of clarity:

That was a "no" to both, so no, he did not die as a result of impact with the rock, regardless of which hypothetically hit who.

[Dr. Cliché]

While I could have fun saying "Yes, no, no," in the interests of clarity:

That was a "no" to both, so no, he did not die as a result of impact with the rock, regardless of which hypothetically hit who.

Hmm, the plot thickens. Okay:

1) Did the rock trap him in some way? Like, blocking the only exit to a cave or trapping one of his limbs under it?

2) Did he die of Thirst?

3) Did he die of starvation?

4) Did he die of asphyxiation?

5) Did he die of shock/surprise?

[Segev]

Hmm, the plot thickens. Okay:

1) Did the rock trap him in some way? Like, blocking the only exit to a cave or trapping one of his limbs under it?

2) Did he die of Thirst?

3) Did he die of starvation?

4) Did he die of asphyxiation?

5) Did he die of shock/surprise?

"No" to all of those.

Because this is a forum and I'm not sure how experienced people are with this kind of puzzle, I will be generous and add that (1) is an interesting one, because the clarifying second part of the question changed the answer from "yes" to "no." I will also warn that it is very possible to get caught thinking along an incorrect path with these sorts of puzzles. So either answer could be misleading, despite being the only true answers I can "legally" give under the rules of "yes/no answers only."

But with the meaning clarified in the second part of question (1), the answer to it is "no."

[Dr. Cliché]

"No" to all of those.

Because this is a forum and I'm not sure how experienced people are with this kind of puzzle, I will be generous and add that (1) is an interesting one, because the clarifying second part of the question changed the answer from "yes" to "no." I will also warn that it is very possible to get caught thinking along an incorrect path with these sorts of puzzles. So either answer could be misleading, despite being the only true answers I can "legally" give under the rules of "yes/no answers only."

But with the meaning clarified in the second part of question (1), the answer to it is "no."

Hmm, is he chained or bound to the rock in some way?

[Segev]

Hmm, is he chained or bound to the rock in some way?

No. :smallsmile:

[Dr. Cliché]

No. :smallsmile:

Anyone else want to pitch in with some questions?

...

No?


Alright then.

1) Is the man lying underwater?

2) Is the man lying on land?

3) Is the man lying in a spaceship/satellite or the like?

4) Did he die as a result of the rock moving when it wasn't supposed to? e.g. he'd tied himself to it so that he could abseil down a cliff, but it wasn't heavy enough or well-enough anchored and so he ended up falling down said cliff.

Did he die as a result of any of these?

- Explosive decompression.

- Blood loss.

- Impact with something other than the rock.

[Segev]

1) Is the man lying underwater?

2) Is the man lying on land?

3) Is the man lying in a spaceship/satellite or the like?Each of these is irrelevant. ("On land" won't hurt as an assumption if it helps. It is not specified in this problem.)


4) Did he die as a result of the rock moving when it wasn't supposed to? e.g. he'd tied himself to it so that he could abseil down a cliff, but it wasn't heavy enough or well-enough anchored and so he ended up falling down said cliff.No.


Did he die as a result of any of these?

- Explosive decompression.

- Blood loss.

- Impact with something other than the rock.No to all of those.



This one took me a very long time when I did it; I eventually got frustrated and was asking questions I thought were entirely irrelevant when I stumbled across one that led me straight towards the answer. So don't be discouraged if an answer is "irrelevant." :smallwink:

[Dr. Cliché]

Each of these is irrelevant. ("On land" won't hurt as an assumption if it helps. It is not specified in this problem.)

No.

No to all of those.



This one took me a very long time when I did it; I eventually got frustrated and was asking questions I thought were entirely irrelevant when I stumbled across one that led me straight towards the answer. So don't be discouraged if an answer is "irrelevant." :smallwink:

1) Was he alone when he died?

2) Could he have reasonably prevented his death? As in, did he do something silly, or was it a freak accident?

3) Is the type of rock important?

4) Is the size of the rock important?

5) Is the shape of the rock important?

6) Does the rock possess any unusual qualities that contributed to the death?

[Segev]

1) Was he alone when he died?Irrelevant


2) Could he have reasonably prevented his death? As in, did he do something silly, or was it a freak accident?Irrelevant


3) Is the type of rock important?Yes. :smallcool:


4) Is the size of the rock important?No.


5) Is the shape of the rock important?No.


6) Does the rock possess any unusual qualities that contributed to the death?Yes. :smallcool:

[Dr. Cliché]

Yes. :smallcool:

Is the rock a meteorite? A volcanic rock?



Yes. :smallcool:

Is the property a man-made feature?

[Segev]

Is the rock a meteorite?Yes. :smallcool:

A volcanic rock?No.

Is the property a man-made feature?No.

[Dr. Cliché]

Yes. :smallcool:

Well, at least I don't have to search wikipedia for different types of rock. :smallwink:

- Did it start a fire when it landed?

- Did it release some toxic gas?

- Did it cause him to swerve or crash a vehicle?

[Segev]

Well, at least I don't have to search wikipedia for different types of rock. :smallwink:Heh.

Did it start a fire when it landed?Irrelevant.

Did it release some toxic gas?Irrelevant.

Did it cause him to swerve or crash a vehicle?No.

[Dr. Cliché]

Heh.
Irrelevant.
Irrelevant.
No.

Well sodomy non sapiens, then.

[Regitnui]

What was the original question?

[Segev]

What was the original question?



"A man lies dead next to the rock that killed him. What is his profession?" is a lateral thinking puzzle with a very specific answer that makes sense, but for which you need more information to nail down how you get from one to the other. You can ask questions, and the person who posed the puzzle is allowed to say "yes," "no," or "irrelevant" as answers to them.

We've established that the man was not a thief shot in the commission of a crime, that the rock did not pin him, block his escape from a cave, nor was he chained to it, that the rock is a meteorite with special properties leading to the man's death, and that no manner of impact was involved in the death. It did not cause him to swerve a vehicle, die of surprise/shock, asphyxiation, starvation, or thirst. It did not emit a toxic gas, nor did whether it started a fire or not when it landed matter (so that information, at least, does not tell us anything about the man's profession).

[krugaan]

We've established that the man was not a thief shot in the commission of a crime, that the rock did not pin him, block his escape from a cave, nor was he chained to it, that the rock is a meteorite with special properties leading to the man's death, and that no manner of impact was involved in the death. It did not cause him to swerve a vehicle, die of surprise/shock, asphyxiation, starvation, or thirst. It did not emit a toxic gas, nor did whether it started a fire or not when it landed matter (so that information, at least, does not tell us anything about the man's profession).

Was the dead man killed by a third person?

Did it involve deception of some kind?

[Segev]

Was the dead man killed by a third person?

Did it involve deception of some kind?

While possible, neither are necessary, so they are irrelevant.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm still trying to work out how the guy died.

Did the rock contain a bacteria/virus that infected the guy?

Did it give him cancer somehow?

Did it contain The Blob, which ate the guy?

[krugaan]

While possible, neither are necessary, so they are irrelevant.

OH, holy hell.

Is the rock glowing green?

Is the rock a fragment from an exploded planet?

Is the man wearing red and blue tights with a cape?

Is the answer "reporter"?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Is he a miner/related profession? (that worked himself to death mining the rock or somesuch?)

[Segev]

OH, holy hell.

Is the rock glowing green?

Is the rock a fragment from an exploded planet?

Is the man wearing red and blue tights with a cape?

Is the answer "reporter"?

You got it! :smallbiggrin:



(When I did this one, it took me almost 2 hours during a car ride with a friend. I got frustrated and asked, totally facetiously, "Is the rock blue?" When I got a "No" rather than an "irrelevant," the wheels started turning.)


Good questions, all around. And I love these puzzles. Sadly, there are, as with riddles, way more badly constructed ones than good ones. But the good ones are a LOT of fun, in my opinion.

[krugaan]

You got it! :smallbiggrin:



(When I did this one, it took me almost 2 hours during a car ride with a friend. I got frustrated and asked, totally facetiously, "Is the rock blue?" When I got a "No" rather than an "irrelevant," the wheels started turning.)

I'm still grimacing. :smallannoyed:

The meteorite was the key, plus the no impact on kill.

Plus, I was talking with a friend about Chernobyl, the other day, so ... radioactive rock...

That was a good one, though. Anyone got any others? I only have the ones people have heard a thousand times (probably).

How about DnD related ones, nudging the thread back towards the OP...

[Dr. Cliché]

You got it! :smallbiggrin:

Well, that was a waste of an afternoon.

So, how did he die? I thought Kryptonite just weakened Superman or took away his powers - not killed him outright. Hell, I'm pretty sure he's been in cages made of the stuff. :smallconfused:

[Segev]

Well, that was a waste of an afternoon.

So, how did he die? I thought Kryptonite just weakened Superman or took away his powers - not killed him outright. Hell, I'm pretty sure he's been in cages made of the stuff. :smallconfused:

It takes a while, but leave him next to it long enough and, in theory (and probably depending on the author), he will die.


Hope you had fun, anyway. :smallsmile:


I have others that I consider good, but sadly none directly related to D&D.

[Dr. Cliché]

It takes a while, but leave him next to it long enough and, in theory (and probably depending on the author), he will die.

I think the more interesting question then is why superman stayed sat next to the blob of Kryptonite till it killed him. Was he afraid that someone would steal his sunbathing spot if he left? :smallwink:

[Ketiara]

This is all good stuff! Even the stuff I cant use.

Thinking about doing the "time" riddle from The hobbit. Time is what a lich has got... or perhaps the riddle in the dark as suggested earlier, the one with the answer being "death"
EDIT: or perhaps this:

3)Try to defeat me but try in vain.
When I win I end your pain
From Dr. Cliche

Ill make the riddle activate a golem once they start reading the riddle out loud, and if the answer doesn't fall within a round or two the Golem will attack and keep on attacking until the correct answer is delivered. And if the golem is killed the doors will be sealed. (within the doors is only extra treasure, nothing they cant live without).

Any suggestions to improve this setting?

And by the way, thanks a lot for the help and suggestions. I really appreciate it.

[Dr. Cliché]

This is all good stuff! Even the stuff I cant use.

Thinking about doing the "time" riddle from The hobbit. Time is what a lich has got... or perhaps the riddle in the dark as suggested earlier, the one with the answer being "death"
EDIT: or perhaps this:

From Dr. Cliche

Ill make the riddle activate a golem once they start reading the riddle out loud, and if the answer doesn't fall within a round or two the Golem will attack and keep on attacking until the correct answer is delivered. And if the golem is killed the doors will be sealed. (within the doors is only extra treasure, nothing they cant live without).

Any suggestions to improve this setting?

And by the way, thanks a lot for the help and suggestions. I really appreciate it.

Could even have the riddle written on the golem. They might not even realise it's a riddle, and just think they have to defeat the golem.

Bonus points if the golem resembles Death in some way (a bone golem or the like). :smallwink:

[Segev]

I think the more interesting question then is why superman stayed sat next to the blob of Kryptonite till it killed him. Was he afraid that someone would steal his sunbathing spot if he left? :smallwink:

Many versions of it have kryptonite leave him so weak he can't even crawl away. He's got a very brief period between the onset of initial weakness and total incapacitation to realize what's happening and move.

Note, this is extremely author-dependent. And sometimes scene-dependent, as the same author will change it based on laws of drama.

[Baroknik]

Two of my all time favorite riddles:

My first, though water, cures no thirst.
My second alone has soul,
And when it sits upon my first, it then is called my whole.
What am I?


My tines be long,
My tines be short,
My tines end ere
My first report.
What am I?







Answers reversed to keep wanting eyes (doing on phone and don't remember how to spoiler)
A1:namaes
A2:gninthgil

[krugaan]

Two of my all time favorite riddles:

My first, though water, cures no thirst.
My second alone has soul,
And when it sits upon my first, it then is called my whole.
What am I?

First: form of water, like mist, cloud, ice, hail,
Second: has a soul, anything human
What do humans sit on that's made of water? It must be a metaphorical relationship, because all forms of water can quench thirst if you can sit on it. Float? Ah, that must be it.

Seaman

My tines be long,
My tines be short,
My tines end ere
My first report.
What am I?

Lightning.





Answers reversed to keep wanting eyes (doing on phone and don't remember how to spoiler)
A1:namaes
A2:gninthgil


edited this while i was posting, lol. Nevermind, I apparently just missed it.

The second one is pretty clever.

How's this? Paraphrased, i don't remember the original riddle.

First two, a man, add one, a woman
Add another, a man, add three more, a woman.

[Specter]

3)Try to defeat me but try in vain.
When I win I end your pain

That's death... or sleep.

[JackPhoenix]

That looks suspiciously like a magic card...

Sounds like Wolfbriar Elemental (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/169.html)

And now Regitnui needs a new password, sorry, couldn't resist the urge to post it when I figured this hint out

[Regitnui]

Sounds like Wolfbriar Elemental (http://magiccards.info/mm2/en/169.html)

And now Regitnui needs a new password, sorry, couldn't resist the urge to post it when I figured this hint out

Really? Really? Oh well, you still won't be able to break into my account using that hint.

[phunctor]

So keep that labyrinth small or you may be there for a while. I had a hard time getting through the registration, I've never been good at proving I'm human.

Anyhoo, my cousin's girlfriend's baker made $650 per day at home I*))&U~^@#$ :smalleek:

Just kidding.