Accomodating Undead PCs

[martixy]

So. One of my players wants to play a ghost PC.
Another is thinking about Vampire.

And I'd like some advice on how to handle a campaign like that.

Here's a few relevant details:
Gestalt, and they get 3 free LA/RHD.
Basically the point of the campaign was to allow players to play exactly such types of characters. Not undead specifically, just high LA/RHD concepts that would be punishing or downright impossible in a normal campaign.

How can I adapt a generic, high-fantasy campaign to such a party?

Party starts as ECL4-5, so even the vampire would potentially be fully capable of starting with Vampire + Vampire Lord.
Also - what are you guys's thoughts on reducing Vamp LA from +8 to +6? I know it's generally considered abysmal, but that gestalt helps things. The question is, does it help enough to make it worth the +8 LA. (PF puts it at +2, but I don't think I'm prepared to go that low.)

For the Ghost PC, yes I am aware of Ghostwalk. And it's 3.5 update.
How does it coexist with the usual +5 Ghost template?
Also - considered living creatures? Really?
I know the point was to make them easily playable, but being living doesn't really jive conceptually with the "you died" part(as in ceased living). Plus, I really don't think many of the Necromancy spells that target living creatures should be working on goop, shaped by the will of a disembodied spirit.
Any suggestions on reconciling the two?
I mean, if you look at it one way, they're basically an astral construct inhabited by an intelligent soul.
I don't know... ghost are frickin weird.

Also, how differently should I treat this from any other generic, low-level, but high-powered campaign?

[Segev]

Vampire is honestly over-LA'd as a template, though it is powerful. The hardest things, I think, for you to deal with will be the incorporeality an gasseous forms. The mind control abilities will likely also be "things."

The primary thing to do, I think, is keep in mind their abilities, and make sure you aren't planning on anything their abilities can circumvent being plot-barriers.

Even better, though this is harder, if you can avoid trying to create "plot barriers" at all, and instead can just come up with situations.

The hardest thing that isn't "how will this break my game" might be the vampire's need to avoid sunlight entirely. Keep that in mind when planning anything outdoors.

[Necroticplague]

+
How can I adapt a generic, high-fantasy campaign to such a party?
I don't really see any reason much has to be changed, There's nothing really about undead nature that changes campaigns much, except that you sometimes have to keep their immunities in mind (i.e, you can't knock out the undead with normal methods, wilderness survival is a triviality, enchanters are harmless jokes...)


For the Ghost PC, yes I am aware of Ghostwalk. And it's 3.5 update.
How does it coexist with the usual +5 Ghost template?
Also - considered living creatures? Really?
I know the point was to make them easily playable, but being living doesn't really jive conceptually with the "you died" part(as in ceased living). Plus, I really don't think many of the Necromancy spells that target living creatures should be working on goop, shaped by the will of a disembodied spirit.
Any suggestions on reconciling the two?
I mean, if you look at it one way, they're basically an astral construct inhabited by an intelligent soul.
I don't know... ghost are frickin weird.
Actually, Ghostwalk mentions this itself: the kind of ghosts that that book covers are not undead. Thus, why they're alive. They're Outsiders native to the afterlife. The kind of creatures that are called ghosts in the MM are referred to as "Undead Spirits" in ghostwalk. They're souls forced into an undead state by negative energy and their own negative emotions.

Thus, it reconciles them by splitting it into two creatures. You have Ghosts, which all sentient creatures produce when they die in that setting. These are living outsiders, just like petitioners. Whether they are corporeal or not depends on where they are . They are only in one location at a time. Various X Undead don't work on them (since they're outsiders, not undead). Then you have Undead Spirits, which some creatures with souls can produce in rare circumstances. These are undead creatures, not living or dead. They are normally corporeal on the Ethereal Plane, but can become bi-locational, becoming incorporeal on the material (while still being corporeal on the Ethereal).

[mabriss lethe]

Having run a mainly undead party a while back, the biggest problem I had GMing the vampire was all of their weaknesses constantly interfered with the rest of the adventuring party.

[martixy]

Actually, Ghostwalk mentions this itself: the kind of ghosts that that book covers are not undead. Thus, why they're alive. They're Outsiders native to the afterlife. The kind of creatures that are called ghosts in the MM are referred to as "Undead Spirits" in ghostwalk. They're souls forced into an undead state by negative energy and their own negative emotions.

Thus, it reconciles them by splitting it into two creatures. You have Ghosts, which all sentient creatures produce when they die in that setting. These are living outsiders, just like petitioners. Whether they are corporeal or not depends on where they are . They are only in one location at a time. Various X Undead don't work on them (since they're outsiders, not undead). Then you have Undead Spirits, which some creatures with souls can produce in rare circumstances. These are undead creatures, not living or dead. They are normally corporeal on the Ethereal Plane, but can become bi-locational, becoming incorporeal on the material (while still being corporeal on the Ethereal).
I know. I read all the general rules from the book.
Where can I read about petitioners btw?
I can't seem to remember anything on their specific nature from Manual of the Planes.

The point is... the ghosts from Ghostwalk are too similar to regular adventurers for me to be comfortable with.
Like being a ghost is just a brief pitstop in your adventuring career. While I was looking to make the experience something fundamentally different. The way being undead and incorporeal does it.

I was thinking of coming up with some combo ghost template. Maybe Undead (Extraplanar). Or an outsider(Extraplanar, Ghost). Where the ghost subtype is more or less equivalent to being undead, except for immunity to mind-affecting and various other bits and bobs.
LA+2 sound about right?

P.S. Also, for what is undoubtedly an entirely silly reason they make ghost a humanoid-exclusive club.


Having run a mainly undead party a while back, the biggest problem I had GMing the vampire was all of their weaknesses constantly interfered with the rest of the adventuring party.

Actually I was thinking of straight-out dropping the silly pop-culture remnants.
Like garlic and mirrors and similarly stupid sh*t.
Such as being invited into buildings. I was thinking of using Dresden style home rules, where they just lose all of their supernatural attacks when entering uninvited. I think that where the player got the idea from anyway.
Plus, there's Vampire Lord, which is another easy +3 LA which removes most of the real weaknesses.
How you kill those immensely amusing as well.

[Ortesk]

I ran a campaign with a vampire before. He was pretty easy once I homebrewed a potion that gave him day walking. Also plot hooks since it lasted 4 hours. However, the vampire lord is where I messed up. The stat boosts, the abilities, and the feats kind of made him pretty well...insane. I ran the vampire as LA 2 by the way, and having the vampire weaknesses was pretty nice. I rarely used them, but occasionally they would fight a person who knew what he was. Made him change tactics, was pretty fun. Just keep an eye on the whole unlimited slave thing, that can mess up a situation quickly. Also, an Archer is a real threat against a medium vampire. If he shoots him in the heart, well that arrow is wood...should be a stake. My only advice is.... If he is playing a spellcaster, I would run it as a LA 6. If he is melee, I would call it a LA 2. The lord is where things get dicey. The stats can quickly even overrun a gestalt

[fishyfishyfishy]

With 2 players interested already I would try talking the others into playing an undead themed game. Put Libris Mortis to good use and go all in. They can be unlikely anti-heroes, or very likely villains. It could be great fun.

[martixy]

Not when all the other PCs are expected to have similarly ludicrous stat bonuses.
'sides, stats ain't got nothin on good class features as we all know.

Good point on the spawn.
I'll either impose a mechanical limit or sic very powerful people on him.

The arrow thing. That's a, ah... very pertinent thing, especially given the fact that I'm using called shots, where you can very specifically target the heart. Doubly so for the fact that piercing weapons receive a bonus when targeting that specific area due to a small houserule I introduced to make things more interesting. :smallbiggrin:
The entry even specifically calls out vampires. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots)

To be fair, I fully expect him to take Vampire Lord, I just won't remind him. Maybe. We'll see.


With 2 players interested already I would try talking the others into playing an undead themed game. Put Libris Mortis to good use and go all in. They can be unlikely anti-heroes, or very likely villains. It could be great fun.

Things are very well on their way to ghoul-town, population: my party.

[Jeff the Green]

wilderness survival is a triviality

Not necessarily. Many undead (including vampires) were updated in Libris Mortis to either be destroyed or go insane if they don't feed, often on living sentient beings, which makes it even trickier than for the living. A vampire would have to drag along a bunch of "blood donors" for an extended trek.

[Ortesk]

Not when all the other PCs are expected to have similarly ludicrous stat bonuses.
'sides, stats ain't got nothin on good class features as we all know.

Good point on the spawn.
I'll either impose a mechanical limit or sic very powerful people on him.

The arrow thing. That's a, ah... very pertinent thing, especially given the fact that I'm using called shots, where you can very specifically target the heart. Doubly so for the fact that piercing weapons receive a bonus when targeting that specific area due to a small houserule I introduced to make things more interesting. :smallbiggrin:
The entry even specifically calls out vampires. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/called-shots)

To be fair, I fully expect him to take Vampire Lord, I just won't remind him. Maybe. We'll see.



Just read your ECL start...are you going to handwaive the vampire lord Pre reqs? Because at level 4-5 he won't be a candidate. Technically, at 4 I think he is a spawn. But that sounds silly to me, I would waive that. I handled the spawn business by making a vampire counsel. There are very powerful vampire lords who like the fact most think they are a myth. If some young kid starts turning out hundreds of hungry mouths, it will bring the attention of churches who know how to handle vampires. So a truce is made. The counself polices their own, the church leaves the more civil vampires alone. Anything that may upset that balance is dealt with, harshly. Just my idea, use it if you like

[martixy]

Just read your ECL start...are you going to handwaive the vampire lord Pre reqs? Because at level 4-5 he won't be a candidate. Technically, at 4 I think he is a spawn. But that sounds silly to me, I would waive that. I handled the spawn business by making a vampire counsel. There are very powerful vampire lords who like the fact most think they are a myth. If some young kid starts turning out hundreds of hungry mouths, it will bring the attention of churches who know how to handle vampires. So a truce is made. The council polices their own, the church leaves the more civil vampires alone. Anything that may upset that balance is dealt with, harshly. Just my idea, use it if you like

Oops... I did not see that. 10 character levels. No way I'm waiving that.

And I'm pretty sure all of the players would get a kick out of me doing the whole vampire courts routine.

[Ortesk]

Oops... I did not see that. 10 character levels. No way I'm waiving that.

And I'm pretty sure all of the players would get a kick out of me doing the whole vampire courts routine.

Vampire lord is honestly a ton of trouble. It is a lot of paperwork, and most of the abilities will never see use, then there is the whole killing him thing.

I would look in Raven loft for how they handle vampires. It really was an awesome change. Basically garlic repels some, it is nothing to others, and some get mad or see it like catnip. Basically work with the player for what his weaknesses are, and slide the level adjustment from there. Also, Raven loft vampires get stronger, faster, and get new powers as they age. I really liked that, because I liked true blood. So having basically a Russell edgington in my game (old as dirt, super fast and strong, tough as all get out) was kind of fun. It, to me, handles aging and evolving as a vampire far better than a regular one. Without upping the LA (it increases CR, but not LA)

For the ghost, I would do something similar. Work with the player as to what kind of ghost he is. He is a pc, not typical ghost. Maybe his powers are different? Again, determine LA based on his class and ability synergy (+x to charisma is nice to the sorceror, kind of worthless to the barbarian. That should be reflected in LA)

For the rest of the group, maybe toss in a lycan if they want. But the one thing you want to make sure of, if two people are undead (and one is a vampire) watch the others alignments and make sure there won't be issues based on the undead. Druids, barbarians, and good clerics and paladins will be disgusted by that vampire. That could be an issue. Making sure the whole party is aware of what the others are doing will save headaches. Unless vampire likes the idea of hiding who he is from his companions, and companions like playing in the dark. Then that could be a lot of fun to play.

Lastly, make sure they understand the RP drawbacks. If a vampire is caught feeding, how will the townsfolk react? How will the guard, the local wizard, the local clergy? Things to make sure they are aware of. I once played a lycanthrope. I was told that it wouldn't hinder me in roleplaying and it was implied nobody cared. I shape shifted in a skirmish, and apparently the other guards figured kill the beast man. Those are times that as a player, it feels like betrayel. Even if most love or hate undead, there will be others who oppose that. Which gives you plot hooks galore.

Also feel free to add rp requirements to the spawn thing also. Maybe spawn are stronger the more emotionally evolved the maker is. So a spawn happens when a maker is simply lost in hunger. Maybe a true vampire requires a friend,and the spark that will lead to a lord or paragon comes from a vampire born of love? Just food for thought, I really like when DM's are willing to put in the extra work to make players have the character they can see in their heads, so kudos to you for being willing to let them play as these "monsters"

[greyknight666]

Find a copy of Goodman Games Complete Guild to Vampires. It describes a couple cloaks for vampires just need to watch out for combat, does include wraps of cloth to fix slashes in said cloaks if quick enough. I know 3rd party stuff is a pain sometimes but sometimes theres good ideas in them.

[ATHATH]

Not necessarily. Many undead (including vampires) were updated in Libris Mortis to either be destroyed or go insane if they don't feed, often on living sentient beings, which makes it even trickier than for the living. A vampire would have to drag along a bunch of "blood donors" for an extended trek.
Don't confuse sapience with sentience. The Vampire can just eat a bear or two and be fine.

[Crake]

If not everyone wants to gestalt, I have a system for this in my signature, my optional gestalt/variant LA rules. I've actually playtested it with a both lycanthropes and vampires and it works very well, letting them keep up while not making them overly powerful.

[martixy]

~snip~

I was thinking of combining how both types of ghosts work. I probably need to figure out how D&D cosmology works first. Eh. I see a lot of book-diving in my immediate future.

There is gonna be a lot of monsterriness in the campaign, both on PC and NPC side, so we got that covered.
In fact that is my setting's entire "shtick". I got tired of the humanoid-centric nature of D&D and decided to do something about it. For once all the PHB races get to be a (relative) minority. I mean I've seen so many DMs, including one of my players, another potential player, a bunch of personalities on the internet and a whole lot of listings on roll20 talk about their setting "oh, you see my setting is very human dominated, cuz I'm original" or "I wanted to include political intrigue". Cuz you could never do that in a less human dominated world. Heaven forbid monstrous characters weren't just made for slaughtering. No. Screw that. Sometimes you just gotta let loose your inner shoggoth.
</rant>

Anyway... back to vampires. To be fair, with how much leeway I'm allowing in character creation in general, vampire lord is not nearly as OP as it might seem in a normal game. Besides, it's no harder to play than a caster. And I already have a questline planned involving a vampire lord or two.

The spawn idea... is actually pretty neat. Thanks.

I'm sorry about your experience. Having been on the receiving end of similar situations, I can fully understand you. No, self-consistency is a terrible, time-eating, personal affliction I've been cursed with.


If not everyone wants to gestalt, I have a system for this in my signature, my optional gestalt/variant LA rules. I've actually playtested it with a both lycanthropes and vampires and it works very well, letting them keep up while not making them overly powerful.
I know... You and I have already talked about it. :smallbiggrin: