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Aniikinis
2016-04-20, 10:02 PM
Okay, so I came up with an idea a little bit ago that seems pretty easy to put into practice.

I don't have everything set up just yet, but I was thinking of adding a video game like unlockables system as a meta-element to a campaign I was about to create.

The basic premise is that once the Average Party Level reaches a certain level, a milestone is reached, certain conditions are met, etc. then new classes/races/items/artifacts/what-have-you would be unlocked for them to use at the next character creation in case their character died. This wouldn't be a limiter on the types of characters, but rrather a way for them to experience new things.

At APL 1: all of the races/classes/etc. that are allowed from core and the splatbooks being used is unlocked for everyone to use.

At each "unlock APL" afterwards three races would be given as aditions to their repetiore: one less powerful, one average power, and one of above average or exceptional power, as well as a few classes that seem to either fit the campaign or that might pique the interest of the players/GM.

The additions might be from other sourcebooks or homebrew or really anything that the GM wants to put into the game. So, what're your thoughts on my idea?

Aniikinis
2016-04-26, 11:41 AM
Bump!

Also sorta fleshed out the idea in the form of a chart on google docs: here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mHJCoTHzcXKfQRZ_wWGLD3CvfP5lkWobJjIY3V6CT5g/edit?usp=sharing)

Please, please tell me your thoughts on it, the levels are only there as a broad idealist "range" if you will, and can be changed to fit your game or play style.

JeenLeen
2016-04-26, 11:53 AM
For race/class, is it expected that PCs will die (or just retire) often and be replaced by new PCs?

Otherwise, I see the new unlockables having little impact since characters would already exist, unless you allow things like rebuilding PCs with the new race/whatever and ret-conning that it was always that way. I feel like this would be detrimental to roleplaying, since some players might want to build a new character after each unlock. For me at least, it takes some time to get into a character's head and really enjoy playing that character; but I'm also a bit of a powergamer, so I don't want an ineffective or subpar build. It would be hard for me to balance those elements when I need to rebuild my character to stay on par with other PCs. (This is assuming others use the unlockables, but that seems a safe assumption; if nobody does, it adds nothing to the game.)

New and special items showing up in the local magic shop sounds cool. It's also a neat way to give access to artifacts at a high party level.

So, I guess my opinion is: iffy on classes/races, but sounds cool otherwise. If your group likes it, seems like it would work.

Aniikinis
2016-04-26, 02:08 PM
For race/class, is it expected that PCs will die (or just retire) often and be replaced by new PCs?
Not really, I added it sort of as something for the players to use in case their character died. It wasn't meant for use as rebuilding(although it can be used that way), but as another option to be used in case something went wrong.


(This is assuming others use the unlockables, but that seems a safe assumption; if nobody does, it adds nothing to the game.)
I know, but it adds more variety to the roster that they have available.


New and special items showing up in the local magic shop sounds cool. It's also a neat way to give access to artifacts at a high party level.
Yeah that's what I was gonna do as well as allowing them to use them at character creation.


So, I guess my opinion is: iffy on classes/races, but sounds cool otherwise. If your group likes it, seems like it would work.
That's a solid opinion and thank you for the critique.
I was mainly gonna let them use it for a campaign, and, assuming that they manage to defeat the Elder Evil, in subsequent campaigns/games in that world.

JeenLeen
2016-04-26, 02:19 PM
That's a solid opinion and thank you for the critique.
I was mainly gonna let them use it for a campaign, and, assuming that they manage to defeat the Elder Evil, in subsequent campaigns/games in that world.

You're welcome.
I can see this especially fun if the players can use these options for new games in the same (or even other) settings. This is especially true if your group meets often and consistently enough for this to be an investment that will pay off.

As I think about it more, I think the main caution I feel about this system comes from my gaming situation. I'm in my early 30s, with a full-time job, a family, and possibly going back to college. It's hard to game every other week. Something like this would be unappealing to me because I would have no reason to think I'd ever use the unlockables since our games tend to take a long time to finish, and by then we usually move to another system (ex. WoD vs D&D).
If your group meets often, then this could definitely be more beneficial (although I still think some would dislike it if it'd feel like an incentive to die so they can build a better character.)

I would recommend letting the unlockables stay unlocked even if they fail to beat the boss. Maybe there's a 'won the campaign' unlockable they miss, but they shouldn't lose the weeks/months of real life they invested to unlock things because the final battle was lost.

Blueiji
2016-04-26, 02:29 PM
This is definitely a fun idea, and it could be satisfying to pursue and cross-off achievements from a list. That said I feel that while this idea may not stunt or limit roleplay on a small scale, it'll definitely warp it in the big picture.

If a player knows they can only access certain classes or items getting a certain APL, it will make them take certain actions for meta reasons rather than in-character reasons?

If a player wants to play something only achievable at a higher APL, will they have to play something they're not really invested in until they can access what they actually want? (It's different than a player simply having to deal with a certain class/race/feat being banned, because in this system they know that they can eventually use it, whereas if its simply banned they can accept the loss and pursue a different character concept.)

If a DM wants to introduce an element that hasn't been unlocked yet, won't they have to go through extreme hoops?

Why does having a specific APL value suddenly unlock something like the Duskblade or the Scout? Is it because the specific achievement was relevant to the class? If so, you may just want to check out this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm) variant for prestige classes.

If you do decide to employ an achievement system, here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFM4eIAou5M) a very short video about what kind of achievements represent the most interesting sort or game design.

Aniikinis
2016-04-27, 12:44 PM
You're welcome.
I can see this especially fun if the players can use these options for new games in the same (or even other) settings. This is especially true if your group meets often and consistently enough for this to be an investment that will pay off.
I was planning on that, which is why they need to defeat(or at least banish) the Big Bad. If it wins, it'll consume the entire world.


I would recommend letting the unlockables stay unlocked even if they fail to beat the boss. Maybe there's a 'won the campaign' unlockable they miss, but they shouldn't lose the weeks/months of real life they invested to unlock things because the final battle was lost.
The way my group meets, the campaign should really only last maybe a month or two at best. And we've gone through enough campaigns and settings that it doesn't really matter that much with my group.


This is definitely a fun idea, and it could be satisfying to pursue and cross-off achievements from a list. That said I feel that while this idea may not stunt or limit roleplay on a small scale, it'll definitely warp it in the big picture.
Fair enough, but with my group I sort of expect optimization, since everyone in the group does it anyways.


If a player knows they can only access certain classes or items getting a certain APL, it will make them take certain actions for meta reasons rather than in-character reasons?
This is a fair observation, but it also leads to a good frame of mind to play some characters: "How can I survive this and get out to make it further?" Sure, some of the actions taken will most likely be metagame-ish or will represent OoC ideas but in many games the players will be aware of the unlockables and will reasonably view them as a reward system rather than a set of "achievements" to just collect.


If a player wants to play something only achievable at a higher APL, will they have to play something they're not really invested in until they can access what they actually want? (It's different than a player simply having to deal with a certain class/race/feat being banned, because in this system they know that they can eventually use it, whereas if its simply banned they can accept the loss and pursue a different character concept.)

Not necessarily, as always they can ask the GM if they can as long as it's not an unlockable. Many of the people I've gamed with have never taken a look outside of the sourcebooks(or even the core set) and so don't know about the vast amount of homebrewed races, classes, etc. that are out there. This will allow them to use new concepts and ideas that they had never even bothered to look for. Besides, no one said that you had to tell the party about any of the unlocks other than when they unlock them. In fact, I recently played a one-shot where we could only choose core, then later in the game after we'd screwed up miserably and opened a dybbuk box, we could use all of the sourcebooks we could ever want.


If a DM wants to introduce an element that hasn't been unlocked yet, won't they have to go through extreme hoops?
Nope, the items/artifacts could just show up in a magic shop, new classes could show up in NPCs or enemies or could be tied in with story arcs or important things that happen in the setting. Truthfully, it's not too hard to do any of those, with no hoops needed.


Why does having a specific APL value suddenly unlock something like the Duskblade or the Scout? Is it because the specific achievement was relevant to the class? If so, you may just want to check out this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm) variant for prestige classes.
The problem with that is that many of the classes I'd be using aren't PrCs, they're base classes, and this would add a little bit more complexity to the game than I'd wanted. The reasoning behind the unlock system using APL(And other optional conditions) to unlock them is to show the GM that the party can survive to the level that they need to be at and give them more options to build their PCs just in case they die(or need to be retired) in the line of duty.


If you do decide to employ an achievement system, here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFM4eIAou5M) a very short video about what kind of achievements represent the most interesting sort or game design.
I'll be sure to watch this when I can and edit the post when I have