Bard or Warlock, or something else

[KnotaGuru]

Hello gents,
I need some advice on what character to play in a group I'm joining. This is a new group of people for me and they are going through Hoard of the Dragon Queen. I'm joining a bit late in the adventure, everyone is level 5 so I'll start there. I did get to sit in on a session so I got to observe current group make-up & tactics. The DM would like to carry this group over to Rise of Tiamat so there is long term playing potential.

Group background:
Human (dueling) sword & board battle master fighter
Human hunter ranger (abilities/feats/skills are poor choices for a ranger, but is a switch hitter type)
Goliath (great weapon master) oath of the ancients paladin
Half-elf necromancer wizard (preferred tactic is spreading magic missile amongst several targets)
Another new player is joining the group. He's playing a Dragonborn war cleric.

So this brings up my dilemma, what character should I play? I love playing tactically, debuffing, helping others get the job done, and try my best to optimize my characters & fill missing holes in the party. For this group, I'm thinking a lore bard or archfey (book or chain) warlock would be a great fit, I'm having trouble deciding on which one. Either way, I'm thinking half-elf with criminal background (to get proficiency in thieves tools because the group is missing someone who can disarm traps/open locks).

I've never played a bard, but I think the bard has some great abilities and lots of skills, but his damage seems sub-par and most of his spells are wisdom saves & charm related (including cutting words). To shore up the bard's lack of damage, I thought about grabbing spiritual weapon at level 6 (through magical secrets). I think SW is a great use for your bonus action. Not sure about the other spell gained through magical secrets (fireball, hunger of hadar, erupting earth, tidal wave, eldritch blast, aura of vitality, counterspell...). I'd usually save bardic inspiration dice for cutting words, so that'd use my reaction.

The warlock can dish out more damage, I think hex would be great to help the DM fighter with opposing athletics checks for shove/knock prone as well as increasing my own damage. The warlock and has some interesting effects with invocations (I think disguise self at will is awesome but is it worth it for HotDQ?). I could have a familiar (pixie if chain lock, find familiar via ritual if book lock) as a scout. But the limited spell slots (only 2/short rest) worry me.

I thought about a multi-class bard/warlock, but the delay in spell progression has me a bit worried. When my companions are casting 5th-level spells I'd only be casting 4th-level. With 5e's concentration mechanic, I can't do everything so I'd have to pick the spell based on the situation (hex, faerie fire, bane, hypnotic pattern, heat metal, invisibility, hold person...) depending on what class I go with.

What do you guys think? Bard 5? Warlock 5? Bard 3/Warlock 2? Something else (sorceror, cleric...)? Anyone have experience with HotDQ and RoT? Are the spells I've mentioned effective?

[Ashrym]

Bard. Skill focused, spell caster, and bardic inspiration is hard to pass up in this group.

It's mostly for expertise to fill out your roguish background but also includes the option for many debuffs including cutting words.

If you want to focus on debuffing the bard will likely suit you better than the warlock.

[JeffreyGator]

For ritual casting, you already have a wizard and a cleric in the party. So that should be pretty well covered.

Starting at level 5, bards have short rest cutting words which is pretty useful.

Bards have the expertise option which is going to be pretty useful for the perception and thieve's tools skills around filling the trapper role. Having a perceptive familiar somehow would also help with that.

If you go Bard 3/ Lock 2 you will get a familiar next level.

With bard 5 and magical initiate or ritual caster you can start with a familiar.

Vicious mockery is nice for the disadvantage making folk miss.

Healing word is a good use of a bonus action.

For bonus action use at level 6 with secrets the aura of life lets you heal 2d6 every round.

Instead of a familiar you can grab a Found Steed at level 6 also.

[EvilestWeevil]

Lore Bard. They do the best work with a large group, you get to be the skill monkey, a powerful blaster, buffer, or healer depending on the spells chosen. And you don't have be a "bard" if that is not your style. You can play a dashing, charismatic charlatan that tells fanciful stories. Just because you are a bard doesn't mean you have to go around singing in dungeons like Elan.

[KnotaGuru]

Okay lore bard it is. Should I dip 1 level of cleric for medium armor & shield proficiency? I'm not too excited about having a 15 AC for the majority of my adventuring career. I know the life cleric dip can give a nice boost to healing, but it seems kinda cheesy and I'm having a hard time envisioning it into my character concept. Knowledge domain might work though, and would give me even more skills/languages.

So, straight bard, or dip?

[wunderkid]

Depends how hard you want to dip. The one level dip into cleric is nice for armour and spell slots. It's likely a good way to go for what you're after.

Personally ive gone a little off the reservation with my current character rocking a rogue2/bard4 theme. But that's because expertise + stealth + debugging was my MO and cunning action is somewhat a necessity for this style.

It's a harsher dip however and really stunts your casting. (but for me personally makes up for it with cunning and 2 extra expertises. For the bard who wants to be amazing at everything, you'll fill the role of face man, rogue, trapsmith, notice bunny and controller). Besides you get some awesome spells at low levels with the bard too so I've not had much of an issue.

But if full spell progression is your focus then just stick bard imo, most dips will hurt that. And you have quite a few 'tanks' already, just try to make yourself as less of a target as possible

[KnotaGuru]

The other challenging aspect of cleric dip (besides delayed bard progression) is ability allocation. Getting a 13 WIS while keeping a high CHA, DEX, & CON is challenging.

[KnotaGuru]

So without dipping, here's what I was thinking for the character:

Informally trained on the streets performing card tricks, playing music, and picking pockets for money. Throlirr was taken under the tutelage of a local thieves' guildsman, who turned out to be a spy and was training him as his protégé. The pair was very successful at gathering information, planting false evidence, and stealing important items. Sadly, the master died during a botched undercover operation after Throlirr was nearly caught and the master saved his life. Throlirr was able to complete the mission at a later time and pinned the crime on a former adversary, who now sits in prison. With that behind him, Throlirr has taken up the life of an adventurer.

Throlirr: Halfelf Bard of Lore
Criminal (spy) background (thieves tools, playing cards)
Skills (acrobatics, sleight of hand, stealth, arcana, investigation, insight, perception, deception, performance, persuasion)

(abilities, at level 1 after racial mods)
STR 8
DEX 16
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

Level progression milestones:
3 - college of lore, expertise (perception & deception)
4 - +2 CHA
6 - magical secrets (2 from: counterspell, conjure animals, fireball, aura of vitality, spiritual weapon, erupting earth)
8 - +2 CHA or resilient feat (+1 CON)
10 - magical secrets (2 from: bigby's hand, conjure woodland beings, destructive wave, wall of force), expertise (???)
12 - (same as level 8 options)
14 - magical secrets (2 from: ???)
16 - warcaster or inspiring leader or lucky feat or +2 DEX
18 - magical secrets (2 from: wish, ???)
19 - (same as level 16 options)

Bard Spells of note:
Cantrip - vicious mockery, minor illusion
1 - bane, dissonant whispers, disguise self, faerie fire, healing word
2 - heat metal, hold person, invisibility, shatter
3 - dispel magic, hypnotic pattern
4 - greater invisibility, freedom of movement, polymorph
5 - animate objects, hold monster
6 - mass suggestion, otto's irresistible dance
7 - forcecage
8 - ?
9 - ?


What do you think? Anything I should include or change?

Eidt added a couple spells to the list

[Drackolus]

Counterspell is a must for a lore bard, and you'll want enhance ability and improved invisibility. You may want to pick up a better cantrip somewhere between 6-12, with either magical secrets or a feat. Vicious mockery becomes trivial later, when 2d4 and 3d4 do nothing and everything has multiattack. Eb from lock or firebolt/shocking grasp from sorc will do nicely. Dissonant whispers can be almost all of your 1st level spells, bane is likely not worth learning.

[KnotaGuru]

Counterspell is a must for a lore bard...You may want to pick up a better cantrip somewhere between 6-12, with either magical secrets or a feat.

Sounds good in theory, but what do I give up to get a cantrip? Lvl 4 & 8 ASIs are boosting CHA, level 12 ASI is boosting CON (and concentration) w/resilient. Level 6 magical secrets is counterspell & something better than a cantrip (I'm liking the versatility of conjure animals, especially with a war cleric using crusader's mantle, and summoning wolves to knock enemies prone). Level 10 magical secrets? Hard to pass up on a level 5 spell for a cantrip.

This is my worry with the bard. Squishy and possibly ineffective in combat.


everything has multiattack...bane is likely not worth learning

Bane looks good in theory, it's a CHA save and nothing is immune to it, whereas lots of creatures are immune to charm effects. I'll admit, I don't know how effective it is in play, I've never seen it but my 5e experience is limited. I was thinking if there are a lot of enemies with multiple attacks, I can make them less effective.

[wunderkid]

Sounds good in theory, but what do I give up to get a cantrip? Lvl 4 & 8 ASIs are boosting CHA, level 12 ASI is boosting CON (and concentration) w/resilient. Level 6 magical secrets is counterspell & something better than a cantrip (I'm liking the versatility of conjure animals, especially with a war cleric using crusader's mantle, and summoning wolves to knock enemies prone). Level 10 magical secrets? Hard to pass up on a level 5 spell for a cantrip.

This is my worry with the bard. Squishy and possibly ineffective in combat.


That is the bard chassis though, squishy, it isnt going to tank things without any dipping. This is why I enjoy the 2 level rogue dip with the bard, it fills a nice little niche in the group (well several from face man, to skill monkey, to stealthy, to controller) yes you fall behind in spells, which does hurt a little, but what good are 5 level spells if you're dead before you reach level 10?

A fighter dip is another good way to reduce MADness and get plate. Cleric does work but relies on you having decent wis.

Also the low level bard spells are nothing to sniff at. From what I've noticed for 'damage' you want higher level spell slots. But for utility as its harder to quantify by level they really are worth their weight in gold: dissonant whispers, tashas laughter, heat metal, hold person, phantasmal force, suggestion, all level 1 and 2 spells really do pull their weight so even if you dip youll still be relevant, you'll just be what 2/3 spell slots behind per day if you go for my rogue dip. No spell slots for a cleric dip and 1/2 slots for a fighter dip.

All in all survival is worth more than break point (unless that break point is more survival) it doesn't matter if you win or lose so long as you're alive. (rogue has the added bonus of hiding and running if things go south too) and also remember only the survivors tell the tale, let the 'brave' ones die and you can tell everyone you tried valiantly to save them risking life and limb, even write a song about your bravery. And thanks to your expertise people will probably believe you :D

[Drackolus]

Sounds good in theory, but what do I give up to get a cantrip? Lvl 4 & 8 ASIs are boosting CHA, level 12 ASI is boosting CON (and concentration) w/resilient. Level 6 magical secrets is counterspell & something better than a cantrip (I'm liking the versatility of conjure animals, especially with a war cleric using crusader's mantle, and summoning wolves to knock enemies prone). Level 10 magical secrets? Hard to pass up on a level 5 spell for a cantrip.

This is my worry with the bard. Squishy and possibly ineffective in combat.

Yes. I wouldn't recommend giving up or delaying 20 cha. However, as a lore bard, you don't really have to worry about concentration because your defensive abilities (cutting words) are so good and you don't need to get close to anything. You can do 100% of your job hiding behind things. That's why I'm picking up spell sniper at 12 - I have only ever dropped once, and it was because I got double-crit while standing between two hobgoblin warchiefs with their bonus when striking the same target. I was far too confident. Also, 11 is the point when cantrips go to 3 dice and vicious mockery is definitely no good anymore. If you went with half-high elf, you could get a wizard cantrip, but then you've gotta get in melee or use int for just one cantrip and forget that noise.

A crossbow is a more than good option until then if you need at-will damage.

Also, with conjure animals, your mileage may vary. Not all DMs allow you to _choose_ the animals. I personally grabbed counterspell and spiritual weapon, since your bardic inspiration goes to cutting words and reactions, leaving your bonus actions open.


Bane looks good in theory, it's a CHA save and nothing is immune to it, whereas lots of creatures are immune to charm effects. I'll admit, I don't know how effective it is in play, I've never seen it but my 5e experience is limited. I was thinking if there are a lot of enemies with multiple attacks, I can make them less effective.

The main reason it's weaker is that giving three people bless works great regardless of the encounter. Bane only works if you have 3-5 enemies. Larger groups have enemies too weak for it to really matter, and a single enemy only gets 1/3 of the effect. Dissonant whispers forces the target to lose their reaction AND move in a straight line, meaning no disengage and therefor a bunch of opportunity attacks. Used appropriately (especially with a melee rogue next to the target), that will kill all but very powerful enemies. And if you're not using that, you can healing word to bring someone back up. As for second level, you have heat metal and suggestion, and potentially invisibility (and shatter for a while, but it's a good idea to swap that out later, as the damage becomes negligible and heat metal/suggestion/invisibility stay just as strong regardless of hp). That actually goes to the other option of grabbing counterspell and a cantrip - counterspell, dispel magic, and hypnotic pattern can reliably eat up all your 3rd slots.

Also, don't forget jack of all trades applies to counterspell and dispel magic, which is why they're so good for the bard. Only the abjurer can do as good. Give yourself (and maybe friends with upcasting) enhance dexterity and you will likely go first, especially since jack of all trades also applies to initiative. The bard list is already very good EXCEPT cantrips, so using that lvl 6 magical secrets to shore up your one real weakness (at-will options) is a perfectly valid option.

Oh, and inspiring leader is very good, though your goliath might get that too. Talk with him about it. Probably not - it's sort of more your job, anyway.

[KnotaGuru]

A variant human could start with spell sniper or magic initiate for eldritch blast. Starting stats 8, 16, 14, 8, 10, 16. Forget resilient (CON) and go for warcaster or inspiring leader with 12th level ASI. It's a shame that bard doesn't have a decent damage cantrip.

[KnotaGuru]

So, my DM ruled that players can choose the animals summoned with conjure animal. I'm diffidently taking that as a magical secret. It's amazingly versatile. Need extra attackers? Summon 8 wolves or elk (hello prone advantage attacks for the melee fighters). Need to grapple the enemy? Summon 2 octopus (escape DC 16 - also aids the melee guys) or 8 constrictor snakes. Fighting flying enemies? Summon 2 giant vultures (multiattack, pact tactics) or 8 giant owls (flyby attack, 120' darkvision). Need the party of 6 to travel a far distance? Summon 8 giant owls (provided they are strong enough) or 8 riding horses. In contrast, fly (also a level 3 spell) can only affect 1 target when cast as a lvl 3 spell, and it only lasts 10 min. Conjure animals lasts 1 hour!

So, conjure animals is 1 spell. What should I get with the other magical secret at level 6?
*Counterspell (is it needed at this low of a level? Remember, I'm playing HotDQ)
*Spiritual weapon (decent force damage, uses a bonus action - only competition is heat metal or possibly BI for buffing team mates)
*Eldritch bast (for 2d10 at-will damage)
*Something else?