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Allnightmask
2016-04-21, 01:17 PM
Allnightmask here and this is my first time posting some of my material. So the balance point is a bit off kilter and I would like to figure what can be fixed and what needs to be redone. I'm not often free but I'll try to get back to any responses with some measure of urgency. So here is the race I made for my friend and some racial feats.

Hilen, the Lost of the Mountain

Characteristics
Born of human stock, this people tends towards more contrasted looks like dark hair and pale skin and often look more frail or fey-like. The only thing that sets them apart from most is the cold, dead feel of their forms and the terrible heat of one in or after conflict. Cursed to only feel alive in battle Hilen also have nodes and spines of iron throughout their bodies. Most of the time that rarely comes up but for some the iron will consolidate into areas where it is visibly pressing up from in the skin and rarer still are those with the spines and spars pushing out from the skin.

Alignment
Hilen are rarely passive and have a wide, culturally accepted split between good and evil. They tend to feel more deeply and will rarely ever reign those feeling in, where their love is like whirlwind and their hate is like an eruption. Neutrality scarcely ever happens and when it does it that someone sees the pros and cons of both sides often becoming arbiters, politicians, or vigilantes who try to force a balance in their own world view. On the axis of law and chaos Hilen are spread everywhere like chaff on the wind, with no real tendencies for either but usually falling to one through actions.

Religion
Birthed of deity who only refers to itself as the neverborn of love this race rarely is told when its offerings and rituals are to the taste of their god. This lack of answering tends to leave the emotionally driven race to not call on deities for aid, but the rare clergy who finds a moment of connection with their god never turns their back on the neverborn. Each church building has at least one cleric with one of those moments and young hilen of church all try to incite the attention of their god in attempt for those moments.

Adventurers
Prone to extremes young Hilen will often fall into a life of conflict and while with most that means joining the military host of their nations some will find their way out into the world to make their own way.


+2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
Medium sized
Land Speed 30
Natural Initiator: For the purpose of iniatitor level use 3/4 of your levels in full BAB classes and you may select one Maneuver from Ace Pilot (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7159.0), Burning Justice (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7164.0), Into the Danger Zone (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7170.0), or Internet Explorer (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=16296.0). You may use this Maneuver as if you had it readied and may replace it whenever you level up.
Live Near Death: You may recover maneuvers by taking a free action and staggering yourself your next turn, after that turn you recover all expended maneuvers. You may live in battle but you never truly lived.
Living Mockery: You are considered undead at all times outside of initiative, while in combat you have a con score and all the frailties that come with that. You retain Undead immunities until your first turn happens.
So this race is fairly strange with only having undead traits outside of combat and having natural access to some, well ridiculous maneuvers. Their balance point was lost to my old computer's notes but I wanted them to all have the ability to reference my last campaign with their existence. I wrote Live Near Death thinking even at high levels staggered is a gamble to put oneself into and full recovery seemed like a fair exchange. Zaydos' Yamabito (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407053-Yamabito-(New-human-subrace-natural-initiators))was my main inspiration for the inclusion of the maneuvers. I have to rewrite the maneuvers' fluff for some of them and write some rules for interacting with energy but for now this is the base framework with Ace Pilot users being tactical fighters, Burning Justice and Into the Danger Zone users being obvious shock troopers, and Internet Explorer users being refluffed to be a curse spewing sect. The undead traits feature allows them to exist in cities where a normal culture would die under siege and such so I still have to think about it. Maybe slaves who have been poisoned and know they will die if they get uppity? Now I'm just prattling.



Hilen Racial Feats


Deep Spars
Every Hilen is born into this world speared through by iron shards. Some see this blessing and induce an unnatural growth of their shards granting reinforcement beyond nature's allowance.
Prerequisites: Hilen, 13 Constitution
Benefits: You have such a large amount of metal reinforcing your body you gain a +2 armor bonus that counts as metal armor for effects and you can mount warforged components on yourself. This feat also counts you as a Fallen Star or Warforged for prerequisites.
Special: You may take this as your 1st level Monk feat, all attacks from this and following feats count as monk weapons and your armor bonus doesn't detract from your monk armor bonus. With a Strength 13 you gain two claw or slam attacks and this feat counts as Improved Unarmed Strike for prerequisites. With 15 con you can count them as armor spikes. With Cha 13 your spars count as cold iron for attacks.

Borne to War
The Iron Wargrounds are place that any longer only exists in the memories of the Hilen, the dreams of that land allows the Hilen to invoke long lost acts of violence.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Deep Spars
Benefits: Your form is slowly forged after gaining this feat, you gain 25% fortification. You may as a move action during your turn take Constitution burn and draw out a weapon made of the spare spars enveloped by your body, this ability burn is recovered upon placing the spars back in your body. Light weapons cost 1 con, one handed 2, and two handed 4. Ammo is 1 con for 10.
Special:You may select this as your sixth level monk feat. If your Wisdom is 13 or higher you take 1 less burn, meaning light weapons and ammo are free. With a Dex of 13 it is a swift action to draw a weapon. With a Cha of 13 they gain a +1 enhancement bonus and all the benefits that entails. If you possess Rage or a similar ability you may pay out of your temporary Constitution bonus and draw as apart of your Rage. If you have no Con from Malevolent Seed you may manifest two weapons freely at a time, with ammo counting as one weapon but you take a negative level from taking more then two from yourself.

Birthed to Conflict
The Palace was said to wear the spine of the world as armor and extension of form. You don't have that kind of material to work with so you'll have to wear the Iron of war.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Deep Spars, Character Level 12, Must have Killed a Hilen that had the Deep Spars feat.
Benefits: You may call on the cast offs of the Iron Wargrounds as a full round action. When so armored you count as having Full plate with an AC bonus of 13, this replaces your normal armor bonus from feats like Deep Spars or Body feats for Warforged and Fallen Stars. Your fortification increases to 50%, If you pass a Fortitude or Reflex save that would have a lesser effect you when you succeed you instead ignore it as it washes over you instead.
If you have a natural attack from Deep Spars or a melee weapon from Borne to War its damage increases by one size and you may make crippling attacks as a standard action basic attack or as a charge attack(the attack still deals normal damage, only one attack) unless they succeed on a Fort save with DC 5+Bab (including eyes to make them blind, mouth to make them unable to speak, ears to make them deaf).The limb can't be used until the target receives regeneration or a Heal check with DC 20+Bab as a full round action. A crippled leg reduces speed by half, stacking until no legs are left, in which case the creature can only crawl at speed 5 feet, while a crippled wing makes flight impossible. A crippled head instantly kills the target, but they get a +5 bonus on their Fort save on that case. If the target succeeds on their save by less than 10, they suffer the penalty for 1 round.
Special: at level 17 if the enemy is below 25% max HP, you can combine the crippling attack with any attack as a free action (but no more than once per attack). If your Dex is 13 or higher your spars gain Arrow Deflection.
So this was the first tree I made for them and it doesn't show any real polish or fixing. I can see Pure Crafting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6584.0) in there for Birthed of Conflict but the thing bugging me is the Borne to War weapons interaction with the upcoming feats getting too silly and wondering if the price of Con burn is harsh enough or maybe it's too harsh? Also the extra bit with the ability scores was something I wanted to explore but for some reason only the Hilen really got the treatment. And Fallen Stars are warforged like race I'm still trying to craft that are based on gramarie bits and maybe ravenloft doppelganger feats.


Malevolent Seed
There once was a castle whose gardens were said to grow the full forms of men. Though it was attempted many times the only fruit borne out of that place were filled distasteful homogeneous blends of meat, bones, and bile in uninterrupted skins. Every now and then there are those born to resemble the fruits of the castle have lost the bizarre internal definition of man.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Must have suffered sneak attack or critical hit before their turn in initiative
Benefits: Your innards have been wrought down to their basest twitching slices and pastes. No longer can you feel the pulse of battle and as such lose your Living Mockery ability to massive internal trauma. You now count as undead at all times with the burdens that imposes. You lose your constitution score and gain 50% fortification and your maneuver can be selected from the Void Messiah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?186173-3-5-Void-Messiah-Discipline) discipline.
Special: This feat counts as Con 13 for Deep Spars. The granted fortification stacks with other fortification granted by racial feats.

Unholy Blossoming
Where once you were a seed you have grown. The broken order of your form will be shared with others as it was given to you.
Prerequisites: Malevolent Seed
Benefits: You can as a standard action attack or when you confirm a critical hit make an attack that tears the opponent's innards dealing 2 constitution damage. The target must make a fortitude or will save (which ever is higher) versus the sickened condition for 1 round per 5 levels you posses.
Special: This affects your spells and equivalents only on critical hits if they primary function is to deal damage. If your charisma is 17 or higher you can apply it as a metamagic effect by increasing the casting time by one step.

Field Unfolding in Carnage
Prerequisites: Unholy Blossoming, Evil Alignment, Level 13
Benefits: If you affect an opponent with Unholy Blossoming you may seed them with Iron Warground debris your attacks deal 1 con and 1 cha every time they deal damage as your foe's form fill with otherworldly iron and it wears at their connection to an afterlife. If either score is reduced to 0 through this ability they are now a fertile field for your own soul. If you are to die you make a level check versus the target's level when they were last alive, on a success you reanimate the body as your own. for every Level or hit dice lower they are to you take the difference as level burn which heals one level a day till you are back to full power. If they were higher level you gain a death knell effect on raising and heal your mental scores by engorging yourself on their soul's remnants. You can only have 1 field planted for every 7 levels you have.
Special: You no longer have a connection to the afterlives and will remain as a presence on the earth evermore.
This one was my attempt to let player's act like a big bad hopefully without going too over board. You become a horrible undead who wrecks everyone, so yeah this tree might require more though.



Neverborn but Remembered
The Hilen act in a mockery of life but there are those born truly ready for life.
Prerequisites: Good Alignment, Hilen, 1st level only
Benefits:You lose your Living Mockery and Live Near Death. You gain a Favored Maneuver +1 and you may recover that maneuver with a standard action.
Special: If you favor an Ace Pilot maneuver you gain a +5 to your land speed.
If you favor a Burning Spirit maneuver you gain a +2 on opposed rolls.
If you favor an Into the Danger Zone maneuver you gain a +1 to confirm critical hits.
If you favor an Internet Explorer maneuver you gain a +1 to save DC's.

Palace Grand Beam
Written in the Grey Mountains were stories of an old god who reached beyond his base earth and revised his own world. You are an exemplar of his cause and will breach those lofty vaults once again.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Must know the Head Beam maneuver, Character level 5, and either have Smite (or Smite Evil) or Steely resolve 5
Benefits: Your Head Beam maneuver is improved, offering improvements in the following ways.
-You May Choose to sweep it, which converts its area to a arc for half the distance
-You May Choose to Breach, Which makes ignores DR and Hardness equal to your level. At point blank it ignores all DR and Hardness.
-You may convert it to a line attack which stops at the first object it can't break.
Special: At character level 13 you may ready two instances of Head Beam and the range doubles.

Grand Temple Idealization
You have been birthed with the potential of great purpose and stand to show what the Mountain was meant to stand for in the previous age. You have found a purity that war conceals and a catalyst that death can not abate.
Prerequisites: Palace Grand Beam, Neverborn but Remembered
Benefits: All instances where your racial feats mention Iron turn to Silver. Your Borne to War and your natural weapons gain the Holy weapon enhancement and you gain DR/evil equal to 1/3 your level. You gain an aura of good like a cleric which is negated if you're evil or halved in intensity if you are neutral. Your newfound purity grants you a +3 bonus to saves from disease and poisons which counts as an equipment bonus and you may touch another and grant them an additional save with that equipment bonus versus any disease or poison they are currently suffering from. Your Maneuvers count as good aligned for DR and gain the attack and damage bonuses provided by the Holy enhancement.
Special: if your level is 15 and your cha is 17 your spars gain the soulfire enhancement. If your str is 15 and your cha 13 your Borne to War weapons gain holy surge.

This tree is the opposite side of the spectrum and is supposed to feel like an RPG protagonist. I don't know if Neverborn but Remembered is good enough and Palace Grand Beam is a bit...niche? But I kind of enjoy Grand Temple Idealization. I know the free enhancements might seem a bit much but I can't be sure still.



Core to Core
It was said the heart of the mountain was lost and found again. Those who discovered it were said to be corrupted.
Prerequisites: Hilen
Benefit: You become swollen and monstrous, this grants you the Ponderous form ability. You are Large Sized but count as one size smaller whenever it wouldn't be in your favor. The Hilen who are born into this legacy are called the Aldoi and there are said to be entire tribes of them hidden in the mountains.
Special: This feat counts as the prerequisite of evil for Vile feats and as Willing Deformity for feats that require it. Aberration Blood for feats that require it. and at every 6 levels counts again for feats that count the number of Deformity or Aberrant feats you have

Chosen of the Grey Peaks
No longer will you wear your corruption as an impediment, Aldoi who gain this feat are considered adults in their culture.
Prerequisites: Core to Core, Character Level 6
Benefits: You are now large sized and gain all the benefits of a monster increasing size from Medium.
Special: This counts as Deep Spars for other prerequisites

Expression of the Grey Mountain
You become more like the beings whose fossilized remains stud the Mountain and find yourself filled with power. Aldoi who come into power are often called as Seers and Leaders.
Prerequisites: Chosen of the Grey Peaks, Character Level 6
Benefits: You gain a number of spell like abilities that are cast at your character level. You can use Pass Without Trace and Fog Cloud at will. You also gain two of the following once a day out of Gaseous Form, Gust of Wind, Soften Earth and Stone, or Meld into Stone. Every other level after gaining this you can select one more once a day spell.

I just call this one the mountain ogre tree really. Would any of you spend two feats to for large size? I feel like it's almost too good of a return sometimes.



Hilen Inheritor
It is said the Mountain once was capable of moving and that it had the form of a man. The Hilen have a memory of its improvements and design. You can call on the helping hand of the Grey Mountains as once it called on the souls of the Colored Heights, granting you a new extension of self.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Character Level 3
Benefit: You gain the Ability to cast Mage Hand at will as a spell like ability. The weight limit it can carry is equal to half your light load. At 5th level you can now order it as a free action once per turn. At 7th level you can draw it near you and empower it. You gain another arm that performs in all capabilities you normal could do with your arms. While empowered you can not cast Mage Hand.
Special: If your Int is 13 or higher you can move objects 30 ft per turn. If your strength is 13 you can make an unarmed strike with the spell like ability as if you were adjacent to them. If your Cha is 15 or higher you do not need to concentrate on the spell.

Three Hand Overflowing
It was never known what the third arm of the mountain was born for but through your own methods you have discovered your own style.
Prerequisites: Hilen Inheritor, BAB +6
Benefits: Your Third arm isn't a physical existence and you can use that for many purposes. You may internalize your third arm to gain ghost touch to one attack or weapon . If you haven't attacked during your turn you may make an attack as a swift action with your third arm or whatever it is wielding. If you are using a two hand weapon you can apply your new point of leverage to punishing effect, increasing your damage modifier by .5, typically increasing your str mod to damage to x2.
Special: If your int is 13 your reach with your third arm increases by 5. if your wis is 13 you can leave your third unburdened and gain a +2 shield bonus to AC. If your dex is 15 your third arm's weapons can add your dex to damage. Weapons made from Borne to War gain ghost touch.

Draw Soul Stopper
Each Hilen is born still and it is never sure that they will be, only those who hold to the gifts of the Mountain ever figure the truth and then gain the title "Sahara"
Prerequisites: Three Hand Overflowing, Character Level 13
Benefits: You can draw out that which bars the gears of your life. This stoppage is in the form of a weapon you identify with which is retroactively the reason you resonate with it. This weapon is typical for its type with the following changes. It is Pure iron and deals slashing damage in addition to its other types, its critical range is 1 higher, it counts as one size bigger for every 4 BAB you posses, and imposes a stacking -1 to AC and saves on those it hits (these penalties stay until all damage from the weapon is healed). At BAB 17 its critical multiplier is increased by one and critical hits are confirmed automatically and against opponents who are immune to critical hits you can roll to confirm, if successful you deal critical damage anyway.
With the removal of this impediment you find your strength increasing, you gain a +2 to initiator and caster level of effects you started in addition to counting as 2 levels higher for relevant effects. You count as a living Native outsider, losing all undead traits as long as it's drawn.
Special: Your Soul Stopper counts as a Borne to War weapon for interaction with feats. If your cha is 15 Borne to War weapons gain Wounding.

Once again Pure Crafting got me. This tree is something I want to do with each race of mine and it is a line of emulation. Clerics are neat but I want anyone to be able to be more like their deity without alignment nitty gritty and such.




Shard Serf Savant
The conflicts of the world never truly end, playing out through the dance of the undead and the conflicts of the servitors. You take this concept into your own hands and drag the the bones of the fallen towards another dawn.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Character level 6
Benefits: You can invoke a ritual involving the natural spars of iron from your body and placing them in the target creature, Each Hilen's ritual is different with small collections swearing by certain methods none of which have proven more efficient, everything from spars through the chakra points to reinforcing the points of articulation.
You can cast animate dead with a hour long ritual and instead of a material component it requires a sacrifice of charisma damage equal to 1/5 the hit dice of the target and spars from your body. If you don't posses Borne to War you must take damage equal to your level. if you do posses Borne to War it requires a light weapon quantity of metal.
Special: At level 11 you can use create undead with the charisma damage increased to 1/4 the target's hit dice. At level 15 you can use create greater undead and the damage is increased to 1/3.

Graven Mountain Dead
You have been on both sides of the gates of life and have learned how to share your passage with your undead.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Shard Serf Savant
Benefits: You can increase the time it takes you to raise undead and increase it twofold. If you choose to do so your undead from that ritual gain one enhancement available to your Borne to War weapons to their primary natural attack and also gain a virtual con score of your level. What that means they can now run, are subject to critical hits, and need to feed. This Virtual con score can be drained, but any bonuses or penalties it would normally grant are ignored and if drained to 0 your undead merely loses its bonuses from this ritual.

Grey Mountain Prophet
Turning to many routes and studies eventually you find yourself kneeling before the most knowledgeable font of necromancy. You are empowered to show those around you the power of the Mountain.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Shard Serf Savant
Benefits: You are considered at the center of a Desecrated aura which negates Consecration effects and will always alert the caster and their deity to your entering it. All undead you make are considered made on an alter of an deity and cost no Charisma or hit points to make.
Special: Weapons made from Borne to War are considered evil aligned for attacks. If your charisma 15 or higher your weapons are also considered Unholy on top of other effects.
This was my attempt at a necromancer tree, I feel it is too simple but maybe that's not bad



War Etching Enlightenment
Your spars have come into stylized shapes and deep-set glyphs granting you a measure of magic to your form.
Prerequisites: Hilen, Wis 15
Benefits: Your body gains a +1 enhancement bonus to AC and to your natural weapons. You can improve this by assimilating sundered magic items gaining half their cost as a pool to buy new abilities from.
Special: if you posses spells or some rough equivalent you can now etch your spars with them. These count as scrolls and this counts as scribe scrolls for purposes. With Int 13 your spars from Borne to War count as spell storing. If your str is 15 or higher your Borne to War weapons gain Mighty Cleaving.

Iron Scrimshaw Meditation
You have a deepening understanding of the arts you wield and like a weapon you have honed your body to better accept its new uses.
Prerequisites:War Etching Enlightenment, Caster Level 7
Benefits: Your Borne to War weapons gain spell storing, if you already had that due to your intelligence your spell storing can now hold level 4 to 6 spells also. With the internalization of the arts you have learned new defenses. When you ready your spells you can also draw one spell into your form. This spell will activate when you are either reduced below half health or when you are struck (chosen when prepared). You may internalize a scroll or potion instead of using one of you spell slots.
Special: With an int of 15 you can internalize two spell effects at the start of the day. With cha 15 your Borne to War weapons now overcome DR with your ethical alignment (law or chaos, neutrality doesn't pay).

Soul Scarring Preparation
The marks of your arts are now engraved upon bone, flesh, and soul setting you apart from all others along the same path. You are more then the sum of your parts and it will be known.
Prerequisites: Iron Scrimshaw Meditation, Caster Level 13
Benefits: Your spellstoring improves again increasing to 1-6 and to 1-9 if your int is 13 or higher. You can now embody a spell effectively pesisting it for the day, this spell is chosen when you ready your spells for the day. At level 13 you can pick a level 0-1 spell, at 15 a level 2 spell, level 17 allows level 3 spells, and etc.
Special: If your con is 13 or higher you gain DR/cold iron equal to your embodied spell +1. If your str 13 or higher your caster level is always equal to your BAB if it would be greater, this only improves your caster level and doesn't give access to higher level spells or additional spell slots. If your dex is 13 or higher you can choose to embody touch attack spells, this allows it to be reflexivly used for AoOs and is always on your attack.

This was my Gish tree and it might be a bit overbearing but that's why I'm here.

I would love to hear your thoughts and hopefully I can get my other races written up already.

~Corvus~
2016-04-21, 06:47 PM
The burden of proof of power is on you, the creator. What can these respective disciplines grant to a character? What GM will read this race and reject it simply because it will take a half hour of reading to understand the potential benefits of its possible maneuvers and interactions with another class? This makes the race less attractive to a player, too.

For a single feat you have a character that counts as undead. Its pretty burly, and the Necropolitan even with its massive penalties is considered way good. This is leaps and bounds above that in immunities. Play a cleric or factotum and you can bolster your own turning resistance and play party face. With a lovely +2 Cha and a d12 HD, it's a good life.

As it stands, that's....VERY powerful. Too much so for a 0-LA race.

What I find fascinating about this is that a Human who has "Explored the Grey Mountains" can count as Large-sized right at 1st level for the sacrifice of 2 feats. Become a Psychic Warrior, take Monkey Grip, and at level 2 you're swinging Gargantuan weapons while Expansion is active.

I don't think many a DM will OK this race as is.

Finally, the rest of the feat chains are rather intensive requirements that will likely turn away non-Druids.

Allnightmask
2016-04-21, 08:20 PM
The burden of proof of power is on you, the creator. What can these respective disciplines grant to a character? What GM will read this race and reject it simply because it will take a half hour of reading to understand the potential benefits of its possible maneuvers and interactions with another class? This makes the race less attractive to a player, too.
I certainly understand the trouble caused by having too many options, I'll have to figure out another way to get this rolling in a manner that makes it look like a passable choice.


For a single feat you have a character that counts as undead. Its pretty burly, and the Necropolitan even with its massive penalties is considered way good. This is leaps and bounds above that in immunities.
So do you feel something like a character level requirement might slow it down enough for most DM's or do think that giving it their own subtype with a shortened list of immunities would work better?


What I find fascinating about this is that a Human who has "Explored the Grey Mountains" can count as Large-sized right at 1st level for the sacrifice of 2 feats. Become a Psychic Warrior, take Monkey Grip, and at level 2 you're swinging Gargantuan weapons while Expansion is active.
I forgot about that alternate requirement. I was toying with a character level 6 requirement for Chosen of the Grey Peaks and I'll take off that alternate requirement. So would you think that feat is still too much around that level?


Finally, the rest of the feat chains are rather intensive requirements that will likely turn away non-Druids.
I don't quite get that statement, I think most of these just require Race and Level requirements. Are you talking about the minor benefits from high ability scores? Thank you for the feedback by the way I need to file down some of these issues so they can look passable for others after all. Do you think the weapon enhancements that they can gain factor into any other problems? I was worried about that just as much as the transformitive feats.

VoodooPaladin
2016-04-21, 11:44 PM
For a single feat you have a character that counts as undead. Its pretty burly, and the Necropolitan even with its massive penalties is considered way good. This is leaps and bounds above that in immunities. Play a cleric or factotum and you can bolster your own turning resistance and play party face. With a lovely +2 Cha and a d12 HD, it's a good life.

As it stands, that's....VERY powerful. Too much so for a 0-LA race.

What I find fascinating about this is that a Human who has "Explored the Grey Mountains" can count as Large-sized right at 1st level for the sacrifice of 2 feats. Become a Psychic Warrior, take Monkey Grip, and at level 2 you're swinging Gargantuan weapons while Expansion is active. Finally, the rest of the feat chains are rather intensive requirements that will likely turn away non-Druids.

I... don't know what I'm reading. Are you telling me you actually think the Undead type is too good for PCs? There are exactly three actual effects PCs care about in the Undead type: counting as an object for Fort-save effects, immunity to mind-affecting effects, and immunity to fatigue and exhaustion. These come at the cost of having no Constitution bonus to hit points, and being unable to heal without the aid of an evil cleric or dread necromancer. In most groups and situations those actually very big problems. Also: d12 Hit Dice only applies to RHD, for the same reason an undead wizard doesn't gain two more skill points per level than normal wizards do.

The big issue the Hilen has is that it lacks cohesion and needs a ton of polish, not that it isn't "attractive to players". I like this a lot, and think it could be something great if it were put through its paces.


I certainly understand the trouble caused by having too many options, I'll have to figure out another way to get this rolling in a manner that makes it look like a passable choice.

An alternate racial package that replaces the racial initiating with something more standard-issue, like a small handful of 1st- and 0th- level spells, would probably do the job. Call it the "SRD-Only Hilen" or something like that. Gonna need to take a look through everything else to make those compatible, but honestly it's all pretty straightforward stuff.

The Hilen themselves are pretty clunky, but it's easy to pick out what it's supposed to be. Mechanically, only getting IL from advancement in full BAB classes is a penalty for rogues and rogue-like classes strong enough to ensure no one ever plays any Hilen without full BAB progression.

The Living Mockery ability fall prey to a common issue: what is combat? I can roll initiative whenever I want. If I shoot a bird sitting in its nest, was that brief instant combat? It would be a minor problem, save for the Undead type actually being more powerful if you can simply toggle it on and off as you please, since you could use to relieve yourself of most negative conditions without ever having to lose out on convenient healing or hit points in battle.

And Live Near Death needs to state if it effects all maneuvers you have readied, or just the one granted by the Natural Initiator racial feature. Because those are two very different beasts.

Unholy Blossoming needs a way to determine save DC. Field Unfolding In Carnage requires more thought, as you suspect: it's frankly too complicated. How important is the idea of seeding creatures of higher level than yourself? Because this can go two ways: no level check, you can just choose to seed anyone you kill who's lower level than you, OR, level check is made upon killing target, target is seeded if you win, and you go on with your life. Either way, your resurrection should not be in question once established. And what happens if they resurrect the body before the seeds are cleared? Probably want to make that impossible, requiring higher-level magic than usual, like remove curse or limited wish.

I'll try to offer some more tomorrow.

VoodooPaladin
2016-05-01, 11:34 PM
Alright. Took me a bit, but here I am. Let's see...

First, let's start with the racial traits. We have a race, highly reminiscent of Zaydos's Yamabito (notes reveal that was an inspiration) which is undead except in battle, and uses some of the d20 Super Robot Wars supplement as integral aspects. One maneuver from one of four powerful schools isn't too bad: Humans can do that, too, but they always seem to have better things to do. Living Mockery kind of makes the -2 Con irrelevant, but whatever, it's good flavor. Might want to pursue an alternate penalty there.

Questions: Is it intentional that Hilen don't get much out of being a 3/4 or 1/2 BAB class?
Suggestions: Off the top of my head, you wouldn't need to keep two seperate stats blocks (one humanoid, one undead) if you were to follow through with the "never really alive" bit and say that you're always Undead - but you don't gain any undead traits except in battle. Maybe reduce the full benefits unless you take some of the level-gated racial feats? I'unno, that's your call to make.

And! Live Near Death looks like a great idea for a racial feat for initiating classes, but it's not good for anyone else. Compared to Adaptive Style, it's actually kind of weak, even for a real initiator. Would need to playtest it to be sure, though.

Next, we enter your Racial Feats. They remind me a lot of Exalted charms, at first glance. Not a lot of structure, but the trees aren't really comparable to one another, so that's okay.


So first things first, the Deep Spars Tree has a lot of bonuses keyed to ability scores! That's kind of neat, though a character with a wide range of stats gets a great deal more from these feats than another. It is kind of a lot to parse, honestly, but Deep Spars seems okay at first blush. The 13 Str benefit could get kind of silly, since Nat Weapon shenanigans, but eh. Borne to War is gimmicky, since characters get better weapons from WBL, but I can see the idea and I think it's cool. The save on Birthed to Conflict is low, and in a way that almost guarantees it will not work on anyone of appropriate level. (Wait, nevermind. It's 15+BAB for a 1 round duration, my mistake)

Overall, the feel I get from the Deep Spars tree is that of an NPC chain, with fluffy abilities that aren't well-suited for PCs, but could be used to make some very memorable ally and enemy encounters.

Questions: Is Deep Spars's 13 Con requirement supposed to be anti-synergistic with the Hilen's -2 Con? Is Borne to War supposed to be great for equipping small armies, are the spars meant to be usable only by yourself, or were you going for something in between?
Suggestions: Can't really say I know your design intent, here. This is all pretty experimental stuff, so I'm not sure where to start. Maybe reduce the Armor bonus in Birthed to Conflict from the rather high +13 to a more manageable total, since it stacks with other common effects that boost AC, like shield and enhancement bonuses.

The Malevolent Seed Tree is pretty sick. Real villainous, and I love the Void Messiah reference. :smallsmile: Malevolent Seed itself is kind of hard to get into, since you have get sneak-attacked by someone at some point in your backstory. Though I do kind of like the image of a cult-initiate turning around, closing her eyes, and getting knifed in the back to help her qualify. (By that metric, would a critical hit qualify?) Its benefit is arguably weaker than not having it, though it does mean you don't have to carry two character sheets anymore. (Also: Undead do not need 50% fortification, as they are completely immune to all precision damage, including critical hits) Unholy Blossoming is bonesplitting strike as a rider on every critical, and I like it. Sickening is a little OP for a secondary effect on one feat, though. Also it doesn't have a means of determining the Fort or Will save DC. Field Unfolding in Carnage is really, really cool. The mechanics are a bit wonky, since (at least for me) they don't really make clear that it works as follows: Unholy Blossoming > +1 Con & Cha damage to attacks > 0 Con or Cha leaves fertile ground for seeding > make level check upon dying to see if you return from seeded corpse. I stand by my belief that returning from the dead isn't a really big deal at level 13, especially for an undead creature, and that the level check is weird. But that can be worked around.

Really cool tree, overall. I adore the fluff, and the style overall. Field Unfolding in Carnage is a little crazy, but raise effects are always going to be, since they aren't just powerful, but game-changing.

Questions: The way Field Unfolding in Carnage is written, its prospective user is incentivized to slowly torment a small animal through nonlethal cuts enhanced by Unholy Blossoming, which almost guarantees a successful return to life later on. Was it intentional that killing weaker things make it easier to guarantee resurrection?
Suggestions: I think Field Unfolding in Carnage can be simplified a bit, without losing its flavor. Killing someone with small amounts of Cha or Con damage might be rather hard, since you're still doing regular hit point damage too. What if "seeding" the creature was a curse-like effect you could apply to a creature as part of Unholy Blossoming? If the level check stays in, I think you should be able to seed at least 1 body per 2 levels, so as to make "corpse gardens" an integral part of Malevolent Seed Hilen.

On to the Neverborn But Remembered Tree! According to your notes, it is... RPG Protagonist styled? Cool! Neverborn But Remembered is looking a little on the weak side, since Live Near Death and Living Mockery are really powerful abilities. It all depends on what a Favored Maneuver +1 is. Incidentally, what's a Favored Maneuver? I'm going to assume that's what Natural Initiator gives you, in which case, that's still a rather weak trade. I get the idea behind Grand Palace Beam's prerequisites, but they're a bit strict. Still, it's really cool, so I can't complain. Grand Temple Realization has unnecessary text: you can't be evil or neutral and still qualify for Neverborn But Remembered. (Now that I think about it, does your group nullify feats you no longer qualify for?) Otherwise it's pretty tame for a feat with such elaborate prereqs to obtain, especially since its full benefits require even more still.

So my take on Neverborn But Remembered and its supplements is that they're really cool, BUT - they're also really specific. Specific enough, in my opinion, to warrant a hard reboot into a Prestige Class or alternate racial package. It's good stuff, but it's really jagged in implementation, as is.

Questions: I repeat myself: what's a Favored Maneuver?
Suggestions: Besides the above comment on changing this into a speshul snowflake alternate racial package and/or prestige class worthy of its JRPG Protagonist inspirations, not a lot. It's kind of all over the place, but the tree's overall power level is quite tame.

So it is around this point I begin to notice a trend. You've got a lot of mechanics shoved into much smaller packages than can comfortably fit them. While it works sometimes (Deep Spars) it doesn't always (Unholy Blossoming). What I find strange is now much text is spent on each feat: Deep Spars, a very simple feat, has more words in just it than the entire Hilen race's mechanical description. I can tell what you wanted to write, and I agree the feats are far more interesting, but giving each thing its own... 'pace', let's say, is important.


So now we begin the Core to Core Tree. Uhh... I think you may have swung the nerf bat a bit too hard, there. Now that Core to Core is Hilen only, this is a real character feat spent mostly to get access to other feats. And since Ponderous Form is a weakness, there's not much good to discuss with it, and won't be much until you're rather high level. Having +5 ft. natural reach in exchange for being constantly inconvenienced by the medium-sized world around you is a rather fair trade to me. In my experience, the big benefits of size increase tend to come from bonuses to most opposed strength checks, such as tripping and grappling. Chosen of the Grey Peaks kind of scares me. Does this refer to the stat increases described in the Monster Manual? If not, this is really weak. If so... I repeat myself. That would easily be worth spending two feats. Possibly too good even then. Stat increase is a big deal. Expression of the Grey Mountain is interesting. It's rare to see someone give away a combat spell like Fog Cloud at will. That plus Gaseous Form 1/day is pretty good. That's a pretty solid feat, especially for such a strange feat chain that leads up to it.

My feeling towards the Core to Core chain is one of... confusion. Being big makes you big. Once you level-gated actual size increase, it became a pretty reasonable choice for a single race with no/negative Con bonus to hit points.

Questions: Why does Chosen of the Grey Peaks count as Deep Spars for prereqs?
Suggestions: Replace Ponderous Form with Powerful Build, but make it give you -3 to all Charisma-based social skills, as your behavior is uncontrollably warped and corrupted. Let Chosen of the Grey Peaks upgrade Core to Core into real size-up and give... I dunno, something reasonable. Maybe the ones in the Monster Manual, or maybe a +4 Str and Con. Something to make having to take the penalties of size increase agreeable.

Now, the Hilen Inheritor Tree. Author's Notes say it's a spiritual path, for those who don't cotton to cleric levels. I approve on principle. Hilen Inheritor is pretty fair, as long as you don't gain the benefits of Multiweapon Fighting for free. Stat-based benefits are all over the place, but eh, I see where they're coming from. Three Hand Overflowing is a solid rules fix, maybe a little OP due to boosting hulking barbarians even more, but it's nothing incredible. Draw Soul Stopper interacts directly with Pure Crafting, so... gonna need to clarify some things. Probably OP, since Pure Iron is the best part of Pure Crafting, and then you stacked a bunch more benefits on top. Also, you need text that says your mage hand and associated effects are not negated by wielding a Pure Metal weapon.

Very fighter-oriented tree, I like the idea. Needs polish, but it's full of solid material to run with. I might ask whether this tree would fit better as a be a Fighter ACF or some equivalent thing, but that's a consideration for another time.

Questions: Does the Dex 15 benefit of Three Hand Overflowing apply in addition to Strength, or in place of it? What is the grade of Pure Metal in your Soul Stopper?
Suggestions: Once you know how good you want the Soul Stopper to be, you can just make it that good. How powerful ought this weapon be?

The Shard Serf Savant Tree is OP. Straight up. Shard Serf Savant gives animate dead without spending gp. This is borked. I mean, you can't control them, sure, but it's not like Hilen clerics can't exist. Hell, Hilen blackguards are encouraged! I'm going to assume the lack of cost was unintentional? Graven Mountain Dead is cool and interesting, maybe could be rewritten, but it just pales before its predecessor. Same goes for Grey Mountain Prophet, which honestly isn't any more absurd than the tree started out with.

I'm sorry if this was somewhat tactless, but it's important to remember that animate dead is very powerful. It's a game-changer. The undead don't eat, sleep, breath, age, or question orders. Without the 25 gp/HD material component, a zombie army of any size would be completely free to create and to rule over.

Questions: Why does Grey Mountain Prophet not require Level 13? Most of the other high-powered capstone feats do.
Suggestions: Require a material cost instead of Charisma damage. Several other changes would have to be made too.. I'll offer what help I can, if you do rework this chain.

And at last, we have the War Etching Enlightenment Tree. Sick name, by the way. War Etching Enlightenment itself is of indeterminate power level, since it doesn't say if you can change what your enhancements, and if so, how quickly. It also doesn't provide a maximum bonus that can be gained from it, which may or may not be intentional. I like the scroll-spar thing, nice conceptual synergy. Iron Scrimshaw Meditation doesn't require Borne to War, but does nothing without it (on closer examination, the whole tree is like that!). I like it, though I'd need a second opinion on its power since I'm only passing familiar with the Vancian classes. Getting contingency as a feat is... really good, if they stack. Soul Scarring Preparation is... wow. 9th level spell-storing. I don't even know where to begin building a strategy around that. And the part with persisting a spell is, again, something I know little about. Seems reasonable, though, for the spell levels involved.

I... like this. This is a cool thing. I wish I understood how this cool thing works better, so I could help more. But I don't. Sorry!

Questions: Where can I find someone who actually knows how the Super Vancian Bros. work to help critique this?
Suggestions: Add "at least one natural weapon" as a prerequisite for War Etching Enlightenment. Add text stating that the Dex 15 bonus for Soul Scarring Meditation only applies on unarmed touch attacks (unless you intend otherwise?). I would also actually ask that you make the Int 13 bonuses simply be part of the feats, since they're so integral to the tree's concept.

Fizban
2016-05-02, 04:50 AM
For the maneuvers, in fact I didn't bother reading them. If they're well written maneuvers then it shouldn't matter what discipline they're from, if not then they're easy to replace.

Charisma bonus and con penalty on a race with innate maneuvers doesn't make much sense. Being undead outside of combat is interesting, but not all that useful. Most dnd mechanics are balanced around combat after all, and combat is where you want the undead immunities most. So I wouldn't count it as good as living construct, but the references to warforged make me think you're counting it as better. Feats with extra abilities that unlock at certain ability scores don't seem like a bad idea, but in practice I expect it simply amounts to a punishment for people that have bad luck with rolled ability scores or magic items. As a balancing factor to separate abilities, one can just get a magic item to boost their low stat and it becomes a comparison of prices. After reading the feats, the best abilities don't even need that much in stats and there's no real need to put ability score requirements on them-the feat cost and level requirements should be doing this to begin with, and if they aren't then that's the bigger problem.

Deep Spars feat line: the effect of "has a weapon" or "has armor" is never worth a penalty, the initial cost of whatever got them the ability is almost always enough. 10 rounds of ammunition for 1 point of constitution (that you won't be able to recover since you fired it) is particularly useless considering DnD focuses on rapid fire rather than accuracy. The con prices only make sense when you get to other feats that reference them or are limited by induction, but in those cases they would do better to have their own hard limits. Birthed to Conflict is jammed full of stuff and also breaks the "never make a called shot rule that insta-kills, ever" rule. I'd try moving all the armor stuff to one feat, the weapon stuff to another, and the crippling blows go on the third.

Malevolant Seed line: losing your con score without the line "replace all current and former hit dice with d12's" that most undead transformations have is a death sentence, particularly for a melee combatant. Unholy Blossoming is tame enough it doesn't bug me, but the "metamagic" option is unclear. Field Unfolding is reasonable though it seems to assume the target is still alive even though it says killing them with con damage also activates it.

Core to Core is setting up for some crazy reach builds, since you're giving large reach on the first feat already (depending on how you read the benefits/status quo of being large), and immediately allowing the Deformity and Aberrant feats that give even more reach. Would I spent two feats for Large? People already spend two feats for "large" with the aforementioned feats, or entire level adjustments for the real thing. Some DMs think this is acceptable and encourage it, giving easy access to magic items that grant large size continuously even when the builds aren't doing it natively, but it's definitely not what first party material is expecting. I'd also say that feats shouldn't be giving out at-will spell like abilities.

Draw Soul Stopper is equivalent to some entire crit builds with the extra high BAB effects, and increasing effective weapon size for damage is the most powerful damage buff in the game.

Shard Serf Savant: ability score damage is easy to heal with the right spells/gear and cha damage doesn't impair you in combat, so it functions mostly as an alternate HD cap in addition to that of the base spell- with only 9 cha lasting you until 10th even under Desecrate. The Create Undead line includes incorporeal undead, which may be odd considering your production method, and also gives you no method of control. Graven Mountain Dead is. . . bad. Undead are not barred from running (they can actually run indefinitely), and even if they were it wouldn't be worth the effort to give it to them. Grey Mountain Prophet is half of everything a necromancer ever wanted (the other half would be doing it mid-combat). So any character of any alignment or class can at 9th level for the cost of two feats, have the platinum standard of minionmancy for free with the only downside being a 1 hour casting time?

War Etching: Mighty Cleaving is extremely specific and quite underwhelming. The Meditation needs more details on how the spell activates (when choices are made, targeting, etc), and is already worth two feats before you get double contingent spells. And the last feat, allowing spell storing of final tier spells is not a good idea, especially when you have more than one spell storing weapon.

VoodooPaladin
2016-05-02, 03:17 PM
increasing effective weapon size for damage is the most powerful damage buff in the game

I do hate to interrupt, but could you point me to why that is? I thought the most broken thing in beatstick D&D was to stack damage multipliers.

Fizban
2016-05-02, 07:51 PM
Bad phrasing on my part. The spell Greater Mighty Wallop is the most powerful damage buffing spell in the game, and while flat damage multipliers are nice, just having a ton of dice for free is up there (and stacks). The King of Smack build (one of the first char-op builds I ever read) did it's thing by stacking tons of size and effective size increases. Even just Goliath+Fullblade is way more base damage than one might expect.

VoodooPaladin
2016-05-02, 08:57 PM
That's what I figured - damage multipliers are watched like a hawk, while +1 die size is a common boost. It takes quite a few before it gets legit OP, but that's just how CO is, and more importantly, "big weapons" a flexible concept.

I mean, I was raised into this hobby with 4th Edition, so when I think of borked dps, I think of a dual-wielder w/ a million flat damage boosts. No randomness, just swing twice, hit twice, kill foe twice as hard and twice as fast. Ipso Mathso. It's not quite so simple in 3rd edition, what with your fancy "buff spells" and "flight as a fifth-level ability". :smallsigh: