Beast Master + Crossbow Master

[SMac8988]

Was curious if this would work for a character I'm working on.

If I'm say level 11 as a beast master, with the cross bow master feat. Could I, in my combat turn, attack once and use the bonus action for two hand cross bow shots, then have my beast attack twice with beastly fury?

With that, if I had hunters mark on a target, my damage would be 2d6 (hand cross + hunter mark) × 2 (two shots) + dex + prof possible + sharpshooter? Then my wolf would get two bite attacks, 2d4 + 2 + prof, with two chances to trip?

Secondary question; does prof get added to the wolf's trip save dc? If not it gets obsolete really fast....

Also I am away from my player hand book, but could summon wood land creature be used to summon giant poisonous snakes, knock them all out and take their venom then dip arrows for another 3d6?

[Saggo]

If I'm say level 11 as a beast master, with the cross bow master feat. Could I, in my combat turn, attack once and use the bonus action for two hand cross bow shots, then have my beast attack twice with beastly fury?

Not really, just like Two Weapon Fighting and Polearm Master, you need to use the Attack Action to be allowed to use a bonus action attack. Beastmasters are using their action to command the pet.

Most people I assume would let it slide, though.

[Fighting_Ferret]

"Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action."
"Starting at 11th level, your beast companion can make two attacks when you command it to use the Attack action."
Yes to the four attacks.

"Add your proficiency bonus to the beast’s AC, attack rolls, and damage rolls, as well as to any saving throws and skills it is proficient in."
This list doesn't include DC of any abilities. So, I'd say it is stuck with a low DC, but since it is automatic when it hits (and you are adding your proficiency to attack rolls it hits more often)... you'll land them eventually.

[SMac8988]

Not really, just like Two Weapon Fighting and Polearm Master, you need to use the Attack Action to be allowed to use a bonus action attack. Beastmasters are using their action to command the pet.

Most people I assume would let it slide, though.

At level 5 i get a second attack though. Cant i split my attack between us both, i get one attack and my bonus action and my beast gets one attack, which do to beastly fury is 2 attacks

[Fighting_Ferret]

-redacted-

[Saggo]

Making a weapon attack and taking the Attack action are two separate things. For Crossbow Expert, you have to use the Attack Action and make a relevant weapon attack. You are using your action to command the beast to take it's Attack action, and then you get to make an additional weapon attack at level 5. You only satisfy 1 requirement, so it doesn't work.

[SMac8988]

Making a weapon attack and taking the Attack action are two separate things. For Crossbow Expert, you have to use the Attack Action and make a relevant weapon attack. You are using your action to command the beast to take it's Attack action, and then you get to make an additional weapon attack at level 5. You only satisfy 1 requirement, so it doesn't work.

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it. Can't I have it go in the order I chose? Like I attack then use my bonus attack to have the beast attack then bonus action for cross bow?

I feel this makes the beast master actually strong, rather than behind everyone. ...

[Fighting_Ferret]

Saggo is correct. You are using your action to command the beast to attack, not taking the attack action, which is the trigger for the bonus attack with almost every bonus action attack. Your feature grants you that 3rd attack, but that is all you get.

Attack 1 (wolf comapnion) - bite[1d4] + strength mod + proficiency bonus, plus auto trip attempt
Attack 2 (beastial fury) - bite[1d4] + strength mod + proficiency bonus, plus auto trip attempt
Attack 3 (hand-crossbow) - weapon[1d6] + dexterity mod + hunter's mark[1d6], sharpshooter possible, poison possible

[famousringo]

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it. Can't I have it go in the order I chose? Like I attack then use my bonus attack to have the beast attack then bonus action for cross bow?

I feel this makes the beast master actually strong, rather than behind everyone. ...

It's a detail of the rules. Even though the beastmaster gets to make an attack when he commands the beast to attack, he isn't technically taking the Attack Action. And a lot of options and abilities key specifically off of taking the Attack Action, rather than merely making an attack.

You're not wrong to note that this is one of the things in the RAW holding the Beastmaster back, and your DM might very reasonably allow you to treat the attack command as an Attack Action for the purposes of triggering feats and other abilities.

[SMac8988]

I'll see when we start, I may just go with a light cross bow then. But maybe Good to lose the 1 average damage, and have the two attacks when mounted on the wolf.

[Saggo]

Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it. Can't I have it go in the order I chose? Like I attack then use my bonus attack to have the beast attack then bonus action for cross bow?

I feel this makes the beast master actually strong, rather than behind everyone. ...

So, just for a minute, ignore Extra Attack and Bestial Fury.

The thing to remember is you don't just get to make an attack (spell or weapon, ranged or melee). You need some action that let's you make an attack. You get 1 action per turn, without something special like Action Surge. The most common method is using Attack, a specific action you take, like Dash or Disengage. You use Attack as an action (p192), you get to make a weapon attack.

For a Beastmaster companion to attack, you use your action: "You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Attack, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action." (p93)

Your action is now used for a specific Ranger feature, meaning no more using the Attack this turn.

In order to use your bonus action for a Hand Crossbow attack, you must take the Attack action: "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." (p165) This conflicts with your pet.

Now, level 5 you have Extra Attack. The reason you get to make an attack is because of Ranger's Companion: "Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action." (p93)

Notice how you never used the Attack action. It's a specific case for a Beastmaster.

So all together at 11 with Bestial Fury, you have 2 options.

Use action to command the companion:
2 attack from pet. (Action used to command)
1 attack from you. (Because of Ranger's Companion)
0 attacks from bonus action. (Attack action never used)

Use action to Attack:
0 attacks from pet. (No command)
2 attacks from you. (Attack action + Extra Attack)
1 attack from bonus action. (Attack action used)

Either way, you get some combination 3 attacks at level 11.

It's my biggest issue with Beastmaster, since the problem is the same for Two Weapon Fighting (my preference, a significant feature of Ranger) and Polearm Master.

[tieren]

So all together at 11 with Bestial Fury, you have 2 options.

Use action to command the companion:
2 attack from pet. (Action used to command)
1 attack from you. (Because of Ranger's Companion)
0 attacks from bonus action. (Attack action never used)

Use action to Attack:
0 attacks from pet. (No command)
2 attacks from you. (Attack action + Extra Attack)
1 attack from bonus action. (Attack action used)

Either way, you get some combination 3 attacks at level 11.

It's my biggest issue with Beastmaster, since the problem is the same for Two Weapon Fighting.

Good analysis.

The beauty is not only are you getting three attacks in, but you do still have your bonus action available for things like moving hunters mark to the next target.

Although you'd probably be better off overall going with a heavy crossbow and the sharp shooter feat.

[SMac8988]

OK I got it now. Thank you all so much.

Now would I be able to take Venom from snakes from summon woodland creatures, if I drop 3 levels into rogue for assassin?

[SMac8988]

Good analysis.

The beauty is not only are you getting three attacks in, but you do still have your bonus action available for things like moving hunters mark to the next target.

Although you'd probably be better off overall going with a heavy crossbow and the sharp shooter feat.

In going halfling so no heavy weapons

[RickAllison]

OK I got it now. Thank you all so much.

Now would I be able to take Venom from snakes from summon woodland creatures, if I drop 3 levels into rogue for assassin?

Should be able to. I do it with my familiar (pseudodragon) for the unlikely chance to successfully knock someone out.

Edit: I suppose an issue might be that they disappear at 0 hp, but I'm AFB. I think you might only by RAW extract poison when they are unconscious.

[HoarsHalberd]

OK I got it now. Thank you all so much.

Now would I be able to take Venom from snakes from summon woodland creatures, if I drop 3 levels into rogue for assassin?

No. Not because of the woodland creatures thing, that's a DM issue. But because it's a nature check.

[Fighting_Ferret]

I think you mean conjure animals... and I would lean heavily towards no... mainly because the animals conjured are friendly sylvan spirits that take the form of the animals in question. If you were to ask them for their venom, then you might be ok(ask your DM), as opposed to knocking them out... because the spirits disappear if they reach 0 HP, so no unconsciousness for them).

Now if you found another natural source of venom/poison you could indeed do that.

Extracting venom is a nature check
Applying venom is a poisoner's kit check.

[SMac8988]

I think you mean conjure animals... and I would lean heavily towards no... mainly because the animals conjured are friendly sylvan spirits that take the form of the animals in question. If you were to ask them for their venom, then you might be ok(ask your DM), as opposed to knocking them out... because the spirits disappear if they reach 0 HP, so no unconsciousness for them).

Now if you found another natural source of venom/poison you could indeed do that.

Extracting venom is a nature check
Applying venom is a poisoner's kit check.

So I could roll and ask them you say.... lol. Hmm

Does this seem like a decent idea?

[Fighting_Ferret]

I think any venom would likely disappear after the duration ended. So no, I don't think that idea likely to work, but you may discuss it with your DM... they might allow it.

[Joe the Rat]

Beyond making this trick feasible, what other impacts would we have if the the feature let you replace an attack (from Extra Attack) with commanding your beast - akin to how you may replace an attack with a shove or grapple?

[famousringo]

Good analysis.

The beauty is not only are you getting three attacks in, but you do still have your bonus action available for things like moving hunters mark to the next target.

Although you'd probably be better off overall going with a heavy crossbow and the sharp shooter feat.

The problem with Hunter's Mark is that by RAW it only applies to attacks by the ranger, not the ranger's beast. Not sure it's really worth the spell slot to add 1d6 damage per round.

Unless the beastmaster is multiclassing for Cunning Action or something, probably the best use of the bonus action is for spells like Entangling Strike and Lightning Arrow. Which ain't half bad at all.


Beyond making this trick feasible, what other impacts would we have if the the feature let you replace an attack (from Extra Attack) with commanding your beast - akin to how you may replace an attack with a shove or grapple?
If you allow it only once, not a lot, besides allowing beastmasters to effectively dual wield, make good use of feats like Crossbow Expert and GWM, and combine things like shove attempts with beast attacks.

If you allow them to command the beast with both attacks, they'll be very dangerous in levels 5-10. Wolf attacks hit about as hard as a duelist fighter, but can get advantage on almost every attack while threatening trips. Poisonous beasts could do a ton of damage in a round as long as the target doesn't have any resistance/immunity. Frogs could easily swallow a small target in a single round thanks to advantage on the second bite.

Honestly, feats aside, beastmaster DPR is pretty solid. Bigger problems with the class are pet survivability, damage resistant enemies, and non-scaling DCs. A few well-targeted beast buff spells would go a long way toward addressing the class' problems.

[Saggo]

The problem with Hunter's Mark is that by RAW it only applies to attacks by the ranger, not the ranger's beast. Not sure it's really worth the spell slot to add 1d6 damage per round.

You just need 3 turns to match Burning Hands. 4+ turns and it's the best use of a 1st slot for damage. You can get that in an hour. And that's just for Beastmaster.

[SMac8988]

I feel if beast was on the second attack it adds enough damage buff that most people would ignor the beasts hp being how. But to maintain that damage the master would have to keep the beast alive hence encouraging them to keep it out of combat.

just a though

[famousringo]

You just need 3 turns to match Burning Hands. 4+ turns and it's the best use of a 1st slot for damage. You can get that in an hour. And that's just for Beastmaster.

I wouldn't cast Burning Hands unless I'm hitting 2 or more targets, so make that 7+ turns. Oh, and Burning Hands does half damage on a miss. Plus the fact that killing things with front-loaded damage means less incoming damage while you're waiting for 1d6 per round to pay dividends. Then there's the problem of short combats and losing concentration...

Hunter's Mark and Hex are really efficient spells under optimal conditions and they're great, but optimal conditions are rare, and the trap hunters and warlocks are susceptible to falling into is that efficiency is often less effective than a timely surge in output. A restrained target will take more damage from your whole party, including your beast, not just a plinking 1d6 per round if your one attack hits, and restrained enemies inflict less damage to the party as well. You even get to keep that little 1d6 damage per round. :small wink:

And if you're a beastmaster in melee and you aren't using a beast with Pack Tactics, you'll get considerably more damage per round from Beast Bond than Hunter's Mark. Sucks you can't cast Beast Bond with a bonus action, though.

[Vogonjeltz]

Was curious if this would work for a character I'm working on.

If I'm say level 11 as a beast master, with the cross bow master feat. Could I, in my combat turn, attack once and use the bonus action for two hand cross bow shots, then have my beast attack twice with beastly fury?

With that, if I had hunters mark on a target, my damage would be 2d6 (hand cross + hunter mark) × 2 (two shots) + dex + prof possible + sharpshooter? Then my wolf would get two bite attacks, 2d4 + 2 + prof, with two chances to trip?

Secondary question; does prof get added to the wolf's trip save dc? If not it gets obsolete really fast....

Also I am away from my player hand book, but could summon wood land creature be used to summon giant poisonous snakes, knock them all out and take their venom then dip arrows for another 3d6?

No, but you could use Swift Quiver so that when you have your pet attack you get your free attack from extra attack and then bonus action for two more attacks. This would put you at 5 total attacks (2 from the pet with bestial fury, 1 from yourself, and 2 more from swift quiver).

Actually, if you had Haste on, you could use the bonus action from it to take the attack action (one attack only) and that would enable bonus actions that require you to take the attack action.

conjure animals (woodland beings is fey only) doesn't allow the caster to choose specific creatures to arrive. However, provided it resulted in giant poisonous snakes, no you can not harvest poison from them, they disappear when reduced to 0 hit points (which is what is required to knock a creature unconscious).


Either way, you get some combination 3 attacks at level 11.

It's my biggest issue with Beastmaster, since the problem is the same for Two Weapon Fighting (my preference, a significant feature of Ranger) and Polearm Master.

True, but using the Beastmaster doesn't require expending one of 5 feats. So there is a very very high opportunity cost to achieving the capability of doing the same thing as the Beastmaster.

Second, the Beast gets your proficiency added on top of its own for attacks and damage. That makes it possible for beasts to deal far more damage and have a much better to hit chance than the player's character ever could.


I think you might only by RAW extract poison when they are unconscious.

Unconscious or Dead; but both are going to happen at 0 hp, which triggers the beasts dissappearing. This seems like it was done deliberately to prevent shenanigan harvesting.

[SMac8988]

Would arcane trickster be able to pick up haste without a huge level investment?

also how would enlarge/shrink work on the beast? And is trickster able to pick that up?

[Saggo]

snip

Fair enough. Beast Bond would be the better use of Concentration unless you have a wolf or similar. Ensaring Strike has too many caveats to consistently useful, too easily broken without the right situation. Hunter's Mark at least has the chance of lasting through multiple encounters.


Would arcane trickster be able to pick up haste without a huge level investment?

also how would enlarge/shrink work on the beast? And is trickster able to pick that up?

Level 8 in Arcane Trickster, you have to have access to it as a single class AT.

AT can get Enlarge at level 8 too, it'll compete with Haste. AT is limited to Illusion and Enchantment, and both spells are Transmutation. Level 8 is when AT can pick a free spell, but only one. You'll get 2 more free picks at level 14 and 20.

[SMac8988]

Fair enough. Beast Bond would be the better use of Concentration unless you have a wolf or similar. Ensaring Strike has too many caveats to consistently useful, too easily broken without the right situation. Hunter's Mark at least has the chance of lasting through multiple encounters.



Level 8 in Arcane Trickster, you have to have access to it as a single class AT.

AT can get Enlarge at level 8 too, it'll compete with Haste. AT is limited to Illusion and Enchantment, and both spells are Transmutation. Level 8 is when AT can pick a free spell, but only one. You'll get 2 more free picks at level 14 and 20.

Thought you also get one at level 3

[Saggo]

Thought you also get one at level 3

You do but you won't get Haste or Enlarge with it.

[Citan]

So all together at 11 with Bestial Fury, you have 2 options.

Use action to command the companion:
2 attack from pet. (Action used to command)
1 attack from you. (Because of Ranger's Companion)
0 attacks from bonus action. (Attack action never used)

Use action to Attack:
0 attacks from pet. (No command)
2 attacks from you. (Attack action + Extra Attack)
1 attack from bonus action. (Attack action used)

Either way, you get some combination 3 attacks at level 11.

It's my biggest issue with Beastmaster, since the problem is the same for Two Weapon Fighting (my preference, a significant feature of Ranger) and Polearm Master.
Hi! Thank you very much for this clear and detailed analysis, I have to admit I never saw the initial question nor the caveat. Makes a new light shine in my eyes for beast master though, much more interesting that I thought at first glance.

I don't share your opinion on the "bonus action problem" though. For any Ranger, there are many things to do with bonus action already so you could say that the problem exists also for Hunter, although we agree that there is more competition for a Beastmaster (beast control / bonus action attack / bonus action spell).


No, but you could use Swift Quiver so that when you have your pet attack you get your free attack from extra attack and then bonus action for two more attacks. This would put you at 5 total attacks (2 from the pet with bestial fury, 1 from yourself, and 2 more from swift quiver).

Actually, if you had Haste on, you could use the bonus action from it to take the attack action (one attack only) and that would enable bonus actions that require you to take the attack action.

Thanks for pointing that out, spares me to do it. :)
Also, let's not forget that at lvl 15 you start sharing spells with your Beast.
While Hunter's Mark would not work, many spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, Enlarge, Divine Favor or Haste would. All of them being attainable with multiclassing.

Haste is a very interesting case actually.
Since it affects you and your beast automatically, it means that both you and your beast get an extra action that can be used for one Attack.

How would you rule it by RAW? Would you forbid it because of the strict letter of the text "You can use your action to verbally command it to take the ... Action" (no plural)? I'd be inclined that the specificity of Haste can be considered coherent with the letter with a very small stretch:
"take Attack action" > beast takes all Attack actions available to it.
+: special derogates general
-: Haste text implies strongly that it's the creature who decides what to do with additional action which contradicts Beastmaster mechanic.

I'd say RAI would allow it anyways. After all, it's only a fair trade for the heavy multiclass required. I'm not even sure it's a good choice compared to just use Hunter's Mark.

It would essentially mean that with a multiclass Ranger 15 / Sorcerer 5 for example, with Crossbow Expert, you can, up to 5 times per day, get 5 attacks per turn:
"your" Haste Attack enabling bonus action attack (2) + normal beast Attack (2) + Haste beast Attack (1).

Even if you put Sharpshooter into balance, it's probably not better than just casting Swift Quiver.
It's not bad though, since the slot consumed is of lower level and you get extra benefits for you and beast (extra movement and protection).

By RAW it's even compatible with Twin metamagic ("you can also affect your beast", not target, so technically you're still targeting only one creature). ;) RAI would be debatable though. ^^

[Saggo]

Hi! Thank you very much for this clear and detailed analysis, I have to admit I never saw the initial question nor the caveat. Makes a new light shine in my eyes for beast master though, much more interesting that I thought at first glance.
Thanks, it's a logical extension of the two rules that unfortunately doesn't get explicitly mentioned.


I don't share your opinion on the "bonus action problem" though. For any Ranger, there are many things to do with bonus action already so you could say that the problem exists also for Hunter, although we agree that there is more competition for a Beastmaster (beast control / bonus action attack / bonus action spell).
My problem is less a concern with mechanical efficiency and more that I don't like that Beastmaster actively conflicts with such a high profile component of combat/Ranger. At least the Hunter gets a choice after he attacks.* I think it's bad design.

In the context of the current mechanics, I've come to think that Beastmaster is solid.

*I know Beastmaster can choose not to order their pet to attack. But unless it's because of the rare case they physically can't or it's too dangerous, you're choosing to underutilized the archetype for roleplay/concept and doesn't really apply when analyzing.