Petitioner questions

[Xuldarinar]

A few questions that have been on my mind as of late regarding petitioners in pathfinder;


1. Can a petitioner change alignment? If so, what happens?

2. If a petitioner were to go to a different outerplane, would they be subject to change?

3. Petitioners often become other outsider types. Would the type of outsider they become be more a matter of the kind of petitioner they are, the plane they are on, or some other factor?

4. Could a petitioner serve as the ancestor of a tiefling/aasimar/ect. or would their decendent be something else, if anything?

[inuyasha]

I've been slacking! It's been a while since I've commented on one of your threads I think...
Okay, so some of this is based off of conjecture or opinion, but I believe the answers would be as follows:

1. A petitioner's alignment is that of its home plane, which it is inexplicably bound to, and I think that this means that its alignment may not change barring powerful magic

2. Originally, petitioners could not leave their home plane, though I do not see this in the Pathfinder version. My guess is that nothing would change because their abilities seem to be dependent on their home plane, or, whatever plane they happened to be birthed on. If a Hell-spawned petitioner was invading heaven and got stranded there long enough, I don't think it would eventually change into a Heaven-spawned one.

3. The type of outsider they become depends on what plane they are on, as well as who is changing them and what "rules" are in place. A lawful evil petitioner from Hell for example, would become a devil, but there are rigid systems in place that would prevent it from skipping the lower ends of the ladder before becoming a pit fiend (it would become a lemure first, and continue from there in a logical succession of power I think), whereas a chaotic evil one from the abyss being sculpted into a demon by Orcus may become a dretch, but one being terribly transformed by juiblex may become a babau or something.

4. I tend to think of petitioners as being a bit more on the mindless side, completely bound to their plane and doing what their planar masters tell them to do, but if someone were to fall in love with a chaotic good petitioner and consummate said love, in theory the child would enjoy some sort of benefit. I don't know if the direct offspring would have the half celestial template, but I would think that an aasimar would definitely have a chance of appearing.

[Xuldarinar]

I've been slacking! It's been a while since I've commented on one of your threads I think...


Yes, you have. I have a home-brew I posted lately that I could use input on. Ranging from commentary to other people making wild talents for it.

But I digress.



1. A petitioner's alignment is that of its home plane, which it is inexplicably bound to, and I think that this means that its alignment may not change barring powerful magic


Quite possible, or even down to unique situations. In 3.x there is everyone's favorite succubus paladin.



2. Originally, petitioners could not leave their home plane, though I do not see this in the Pathfinder version. My guess is that nothing would change because their abilities seem to be dependent on their home plane, or, whatever plane they happened to be birthed on. If a Hell-spawned petitioner was invading heaven and got stranded there long enough, I don't think it would eventually change into a Heaven-spawned one.


That does seem to make the most sense.



3. The type of outsider they become depends on what plane they are on, as well as who is changing them and what "rules" are in place. A lawful evil petitioner from Hell for example, would become a devil, but there are rigid systems in place that would prevent it from skipping the lower ends of the ladder before becoming a pit fiend (it would become a lemure first, and continue from there in a logical succession of power I think), whereas a chaotic evil one from the abyss being sculpted into a demon by Orcus may become a dretch, but one being terribly transformed by juiblex may become a babau or something.


The reason I asked this particular one is in tandem with a prior question. Basically for the the purpose of this; Petitioner from X plane goes to Y plane. Can they become a greater form of outsider, and if so.. do they become an outsider as if from X plane, Y plane, or something unique?



4. I tend to think of petitioners as being a bit more on the mindless side, completely bound to their plane and doing what their planar masters tell them to do, but if someone were to fall in love with a chaotic good petitioner and consummate said love, in theory the child would enjoy some sort of benefit. I don't know if the direct offspring would have the half celestial template, but I would think that an aasimar would definitely have a chance of appearing.

I've never thought of them as mindless to be honest. Then again, when I think of petitioners, I often think of those of Zon-Kuthon. We don't see them much, and when we do it is one screaming running from his domain.. before being grabbed and dragged back in like someone out of Hellraiser. Speaking of which, I'd assume they would be near statistically identical to the "damned" petitioners. Could be wrong though...

Back to the subject, I can't help but speculate on what a half-petitioner would look like, assuming they were capable of the required acts (Worst comes to worst, a wizard did it). Imagine a tiefling that was descended from a Hunted, a Damned... even one of the Larvae.

[Psyren]

Is the term "Home Plane" defined in the rules anywhere? If a petitioner changed planes, I'd probably expect their abilities and outlook to slowly shift over time. The main thing that matters is where they consider to be "home."

[the_david]

1. In Pathfinder, Erinyes are fallen angels. It's likely that petitioners could "fall" as well. However, they would be stuck on their home plane. (As I imagine Pharasma does the whole guiding souls to their proper afterlife thing once per soul.) I would think that they would exchange their old abilities for new ones once they arrive on their new home plane, if ever.

2. Don't think so. There's an adventure (Lord of the Iron Fortress) that deals with abducted petitioners for 3rd edition D&D, but I'd have to look it up.

3. They would have to work their way up. Now in the abyss, you might be eaten by some more powerfull demon that eventually will turn into a Balor. You wouldn't be a Balor, but you'd be part of one. In hell, you'd ascend through the ranks by collecting souls.

4. I suppose they could. It would be a stretch to say they'd get half-celestial/half-fiendish kids, so I think Aasimar/Tieflings would be more appropriate.

Now one question is on my mind. What happens to someone with a good soul who makes a deal with the devil? Sure, they end up in hell, but what if their alignment isn't lawful evil? Would they still be "damned" petitioners, or would their alignment be the important factor? Or would selling your soul automatically change your alignment to lawful evil?

Another thing is that I thought I read somewhere that the only way for petitioners to move to another plane was by physically crossing the border of two planes. It would be a cool concept for a character that I will never get to play, but I can't confirm wether or not it's true.

[inuyasha]

Yes, you have. I have a home-brew I posted lately that I could use input on. Ranging from commentary to other people making wild talents for it.

...
The reason I asked this particular one is in tandem with a prior question. Basically for the the purpose of this; Petitioner from X plane goes to Y plane. Can they become a greater form of outsider, and if so.. do they become an outsider as if from X plane, Y plane, or something unique?
...
Back to the subject, I can't help but speculate on what a half-petitioner would look like, assuming they were capable of the required acts (Worst comes to worst, a wizard did it). Imagine a tiefling that was descended from a Hunted, a Damned... even one of the Larvae.

Gaah! I'm not too familiar with the Occult system yet, but I've been trying to look at it, but I keep getting distracted. Assuming you're talking about your Warped Savant, I'm definitely interested in the concept, but I need to get more into the system first.

So, is your question now asking something like, if a Heaven-spawned petitioner gets stranded in the abyss, can Orcus (or another demon lord) mess with it until it becomes a new outsider entirely? I don't know if that was your question, or if there's an actual answer to that, but I do really like that idea.

Also, a half petitioner sounds like it would make for a fun player race, perhaps even creating a different one for each type of petitioner. As long as it's different from the tiefling of course.

[Xuldarinar]

Gaah! I'm not too familiar with the Occult system yet, but I've been trying to look at it, but I keep getting distracted. Assuming you're talking about your Warped Savant, I'm definitely interested in the concept, but I need to get more into the system first.

So, is your question now asking something like, if a Heaven-spawned petitioner gets stranded in the abyss, can Orcus (or another demon lord) mess with it until it becomes a new outsider entirely? I don't know if that was your question, or if there's an actual answer to that, but I do really like that idea.

Also, a half petitioner sounds like it would make for a fun player race, perhaps even creating a different one for each type of petitioner. As long as it's different from the tiefling of course.

Yes, that is to what I refer. Hopefully I'll get enough together for it to be completed.. But we'll see.

And.. yes, thats the gist of the question. Although it isn't always by the hand of something else. Just judging from the petitioner entries;

In Abaddon, the hunted just have to live long enough.
In the Abyss, the larvae have to eat for long enough.
In Elysium, the chosen have to.. enjoy the place for long enough.
In Heaven, the elect have to spend enough time aiding heavenly tasks.
In Hell, the damned have to endure torments long enough before they may be approved.
In Limbo, the shapeless have to simply exist in chaos for long enough before they can transform.
In Nirvana, the cleansed must achieve enlightenment.
In Purgatory, the dead must earn the right.
In Utopia, the remade must decipher the riddles placed upon their bodies.

So I suppose to rephrase the question; If one of them goes to a plane other than their home plane (however that is defined) and fulfills the requirements there, what do they become if anything?



I think we could start discussing the nature of quintessence.. what happens when it interacts with differently aligned quintessence, and so on.