What are some good ways to make high level play less rocket-taggy?

[Windrammer]

DR for everyone with different scalings according to class, perhaps equal to base attack bonus?

What if AC scaled with levels, as saves do, like in Star Wars Saga Edition?

How about HP increasing in quasi-exponential increments, like an HD per level each level? Like you start out with your 1hd, then you add +2hd at level 2, +3hd at level 3, and so forth. 24 hp at level 2, 48 hp at level 3. A warblade can easily do roughly half that hp in damage at level 3.

Think of how incredibly drawn out those battles would be... It may be a bit much but it might be kind of cool to just have a long ass battle that meanders from one landscape to the next as fatigue penalties accumulate. Casters would burn out so quick, it would highlight that weakness of theirs that isn't pronounced enough in most campaigns, and then martial classes get to shine.

I feel that high level warriors, at a certain point, should be able to have the long epic battles we see in fiction. It's as though progression is in the reverse of what it should be... Damage output continues to skyrocket while defenses go at a modest, inconsequential pace. I don't like seeing how characters so easily do their own health and damage and how far they beat their own AC at almost any given level.

edit: I should clarify, I'm mostly concerned with refining the nature of the fight between fighters. Empowering mundanes against casters is a whole other discussion and a difficult one at that. This is kind of just a first step in the process of nerfing rocket tag, as most campaigns I either run or play in revolve mostly around martial characters.

[AvatarVecna]

All I'm seeing is that you've come up with a few ways to make a few methods of rocket tag less useful...and that particular method of rocket tag (targeting AC, dealing damage) is used far more by non-casters than by casters. Rocket tag is dominated by casters because Sage Or Suck/Lose/Die spells don't generally depend on AC or HP.

The solutions you're putting forth are great for making martial characters last longer: what was once a case of "who can ubercharge first" turns into a drawn out battle with high stakes and tension...but it doesn't do anything to casters, who ognore the AC, HP, and DR in favor of trading SoDs until somebody fails their save, as happens here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, this works great for a non-caster fight, but when casters get thrown in the mix, we'd need a bit more. SR would be nice...but most amounts of SR are either too trivial to mention or make casters completely useless, never finding that middle ground where casters can be useful but not guaranteed victory...and that doesn't do anything about spells that don't take SR into account, of which there are enough that casters can still find some auto-win spells. Boosting saves into the stratosphere would be helpful, but not all spells offer saves...and it trivializes the ones that do.

[InvisibleBison]

You've got some interesting ideas, but you haven't addressed the various rockets casters get that target something other than hit points. Save-or-die spells, ability damage, polymorphing, energy drain, paralysis, etc - all of these can end a fight with one action, and simply buffing AC and HP won't affect that.

[Garktz]

Besides giving more hd per level as you already suggested and because the others posted about the main "rocket-tag issue" (spells)

Make combat start from further distance and give a bonus to save vs spells based on range

short range spells (25´+ 5/lvl) get a +2 on the save for any 5´increment beyond the 1º 25´
medium (100 + 10/lvl) get a +2 for each +10
and so on....

just fluff it as its harder for the caster to make the spell effective at greater distances because its power kind of wears out and also gives a reason for the range limit (as you grow porwerfull, you cant make your spells fuction mor far away than when you first learned magic)

[Windrammer]

All I'm seeing is that you've come up with a few ways to make a few methods of rocket tag less useful...and that particular method of rocket tag (targeting AC, dealing damage) is used far more by non-casters than by casters. Rocket tag is dominated by casters because Sage Or Suck/Lose/Die spells don't generally depend on AC or HP.

The solutions you're putting forth are great for making martial characters last longer: what was once a case of "who can ubercharge first" turns into a drawn out battle with high stakes and tension...but it doesn't do anything to casters, who ognore the AC, HP, and DR in favor of trading SoDs until somebody fails their save, as happens here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html)
To be honest this is more the intention. Ironically for all it's power there exist many easily conceivable counters, and with the way casting works in DnD there isn't a way to have a prolonged battle with casting at all. So to have a good prolonged battle it must be martial characters that are involved.


EDIT: Don't get me wrong, this works great for a non-caster fight, but when casters get thrown in the mix, we'd need a bit more. SR would be nice...but most amounts of SR are either too trivial to mention or make casters completely useless, never finding that middle ground where casters can be useful but not guaranteed victory...and that doesn't do anything about spells that don't take SR into account, of which there are enough that casters can still find some auto-win spells. Boosting saves into the stratosphere would be helpful, but not all spells offer saves...and it trivializes the ones that do.

This is straying into a pretty complex issue - how to empower martials against casters. I'm not worrying myself about this just yet, as the power of casters kind of comes from a lot of fundamental aspects of 3.5. It's hard to address this without overhauling the entire dynamic of saves and such, and without changing the spells. Perhaps it's even appropriate that magic comes out strictly superior in the end... Perhaps it's right that the wizard can defeat an epic fighter with an utterance, perhaps it's not the fighter's place to battle wizards. It strikes me as futile to empower the epic fighter against the wizard and the fight won't be very interesting regardless of who wins. So I'm just concerning myself with how to make the fight between fighters cool.

[Windrammer]

Besides giving more hd per level as you already suggested and because the others posted about the main "rocket-tag issue" (spells)

Make combat start from further distance and give a bonus to save vs spells based on range

short range spells (25´+ 5/lvl) get a +2 on the save for any 5´increment beyond the 1º 25´
medium (100 + 10/lvl) get a +2 for each +10
and so on....

just fluff it as its harder for the caster to make the spell effective at greater distances because its power kind of wears out and also gives a reason for the range limit (as you grow porwerfull, you cant make your spells fuction mor far away than when you first learned magic)

Ooh I like that.

Also, circumstantial bonuses to saves should be doled out generously by the DM. Morale bonuses and such.

[AvatarVecna]

This is straying into a pretty complex issue - how to empower martials against casters. I'm not worrying myself about this just yet, as the power of casters kind of comes from a lot of fundamental aspects of 3.5. It's hard to address this without overhauling the entire dynamic of saves and such, and without changing the spells. Perhaps it's even appropriate that magic comes out strictly superior in the end... Perhaps it's right that the wizard can defeat an epic fighter with an utterance, perhaps it's not the fighter's place to battle wizards. It strikes me as futile to empower the epic fighter against the wizard and the fight won't be very interesting regardless of who wins. So I'm just concerning myself with how to make the fight between fighters cool.

Yeah, I know...the old "casters>noncasters" argument is boringly obvious, and trying to make non-casters that rival casters would require you to basically uproot the whole system and redo it. The suggestions you had in your first post work really well for non-caster fights, though; exponential HP (like say, multiply your normal HP value itself to find your real HP) and scaling AC/DR would make non-caster fights much more interesting and drawn-out. You'd still have to worry about Uber-chargers dominating, but because there's lots of ways to disrupt uberchargers from charging, it should be relatively balanced. The only foe I imagine would still dominate the DPR game would be cheesed out Hulking Hurlers, but that's always gonna be the case...and there's a way around that, too:

In addition to AC and DR scaling with level, maneuverability should increase as well. Not as in Maneuvers from the Tome Of Battle, but maneuverability as in methods of movement and speed. Increased speed, or even the ability to move quickly through the air/water/ground, would be an interesting addition to non-caster builds. Maybe instead of giving them all such movement rates for free, you could grant an exponential bonus to speed at each level, and then let them choose what movement speed to add it to, or whether to invest it in a movement they don't already have.

Another possible "super-speed" system that could be implemented is extra attacks (or even extra turns) based on Initiative bonus. This would give high-Dex monks and rogues more attacks in exchange for their lower BAB; while this would likely result in more "fluffy of misses" kind of things, more attacks would allow them to remain relevant alongside more common builds...although you'd have to be careful about rogues, given they can get SA on every attack.

I too liked the other posters idea of giving circumstantial bonuses to saving throws against spells based on range...although it'll be an issue for melee-ers, it should make the life of a bow-man far easier.

[Melcar]

Ask your players not to. For me, its that simple. Just have a talk, explaining why the game goes seem to be less fun or goes straight to hell when that happens. If you are a player explain the DM the same points.

I have found both as a player and DM, that simple conversations seem to work much better than removing spells or feats or classes from the game to keep it in line.

So have a talk, ask each other to try a make the game as fun as possible, and ask that the game not become too rocket-tacky! :smallsmile:

[Ortesk]

Ask your players not to. For me, its that simple. Just have a talk, explaining why the game goes seem to be less fun or goes straight to hell when that happens. If you are a player explain the DM the same points.

I have found both as a player and DM, that simple conversations seem to work much better than removing spells or feats or classes from the game to keep it in line.

So have a talk, ask each other to try a make the game as fun as possible, and ask that the game not become too rocket-tacky! :smallsmile:

This works so much better than making new rules, that have to be balanced out. play tested. Refined. then play tested again

OP, I generally limit my players for melee rocket tag. I mean, they cant beat the DM in an arms race. You decide what sources are allowed. What builds are allowed. If they want to play "I charge and pounce for all the damage" then play it with them. Except, your guy has endless feats/levels/gold. Besides charging, or using other silly things like d2 crusader, what real rocket tag do these guys have? I mean hell, a starmantle cloak makes you a god in melee if it is sword vs sword (which is one of my very few banned items, but that list is composed of roughly 5 things. I am an easy DM)

[martixy]

Or ah... you know, don't be lazy.

Many of these so called problems presume a straight confrontation with a single opponent.

The majority of save-or-die's are single target and even crap like Blasphemy and co. are counterable.

Good encounter design, that's the secret.

[Ualaa]

Optional Rules...

I like a lot of Trailblazer (Bad Axe Games); I bought the PDF from Drive Thru RPG and then printed and bound a copy, since I like an actual book more than reading a monitor.

One of the things they suggest is the removal of the 'Big Six'.
That results in players still hitting within the desired D20 range (say 8+ for a melee) and being missed by a mob (unless it rolls 12 or 14+), pretty much throughout the games life.
It would also dramatically lower the DCs on save or die/screwed spells.

The big six were:
- Enhancement bonuses on Weapons.
- Enhancement bonuses on Armor & Shields.
- Ring of Protection.
- Amulet of Natural Armor.
- Cloak of Resistance.
- Item of +2/+4/+6 to a Stat.

They have a lot of suggestions, which can be optional rules.
Take what you like, discard what you don't.



Buff slots can be another big one.

From level 1-5, you can have two buffs.
From levels 6-10, you can have three buffs.
From levels 11-15, you can have four buffs.
From levels 16 onwards, you can have five buffs.

If you gain a buff beyond your allotment, you choose whether to allow the new one to overwrite an existing one, or fail to take hold.
This simplifies higher level play dramatically and speeds up the game.
Even at 11th level, in my current campaign, if the players are aware of what lurks in the next room (due to scouting), they like to apply fifteen buffs, anywhere from four to ten for a given character.
That takes a massive amount of time to apply and track for each character, including duration and what stacks with what.



We used Trailblazer (as a number of house rules) in the last campaign, but are going straight Pathfinder Rules in the current, to compare the two and decide which we prefer.

[unseenmage]

More monsters. Uberchargers and casters alike are stymied by multiple opponents accross multiple rooms with no breaktime in between.

[ericgrau]

Nope, WBL scales AC just fine and keeps up with attack bonus even with low optimization. Just give normal WBL. With lots of normal items and not big individual items nor whatever else. Last time I ran numbers it took 2.5 rounds to drop something at level 5, and 2.5 rounds at level 15.

Uberchargers and other super high optimization does muck it up. Ban shocktrooper and so on assuming your players are even using it already.

DR isn't terrible. There is a small window between normal AC and un-hittable, so anyone who uses scaling AC on top of items can quickly become un-hittable once they figure it out. The window is about 5 points on heavy melee. Were you going to give less than 5 scaling AC at level 20? That's what I thought. Increasing HP makes people go after other defenses, meaning you almost have to ban spells. But then there's also tripping, magic items, poison, etc., etc. Unless you strip the entire fighter game down to Final Fantasy I "Fight, Run, Item", it'll be a mess.

[Windrammer]

Ask your players not to. For me, its that simple. Just have a talk, explaining why the game goes seem to be less fun or goes straight to hell when that happens. If you are a player explain the DM the same points.

I have found both as a player and DM, that simple conversations seem to work much better than removing spells or feats or classes from the game to keep it in line.

So have a talk, ask each other to try a make the game as fun as possible, and ask that the game not become too rocket-tacky! :smallsmile:

My players already play properly, I tried to explain that it seems to be a fundamental issue of the system. If you're a character that isn't deliberately made to be weak then you're quickly going to do too much damage for your level, and there are more means to offense than defense.

[Ualaa]

You could just be like a DM I used to play with...

The mobs don't use save or die effects.
And for the first five or six (it varied, based on how 'tough' the thing was supposed to be) rounds of a combat, the mob is immune to everything.
Except that we didn't know it was immune.

Whatever damage was dealt during the immunity rounds, brought it down to half health.
After that, it was generally more than the same number of rounds, as the better attacks were likely already used.

We weren't informed of this though, until near the end of the campaign.

[martixy]

I genuinely believe banning/avoiding things on either side is a shameless cop-out.

The immunity thing is a very intriguing idea. It is also very video-gamey.
And I'm not sure if there is a way for me to say this and not insult your intelligence, so please accept my apology beforehand.
However I feel many players would detect such a stage trick and it would damage the verisimilitude of a campaign far more than any rocket-tagginess or save-or-dies.

[Nuada99]

Yeah, I know...the old "casters>noncasters" argument is boringly obvious, and trying to make non-casters that rival casters would require you to basically uproot the whole system and redo it.

While I did actually do just this, I would say that, at least to address the 'save or die' aspect of things, there is another solution. Conditions can be broken into arrays of 'strong', 'moderate', and 'weak', defined by how debilitating they are. Weak conditions are like 'shaken' or 'dazzled' inflicting a mild penalty to attacks or AC or other useful things. Moderate conditions are obviously worse, generally restricting access to some abilities or actions, but not turning your character off completely. Staggered is a good example. Finally, strong conditions typically take away all of your actions for one or more rounds. These are the true 'save or suck' statuses.

In general, I don't think 'save or die' should exist at all. It's not actually a fun mechanic to have your character killed because of a die roll. If you made a bad choice, sure, that's on you, but a die roll? How is this the story of a hero? Doesn't work for me, either thematically, or mechanically. As a player, it just pisses me off.

Save or die by a player against a monster is, at least sometimes, maybe okay. It's just when the heroes of the story are being plucked out of existence purely by chance that breaks my willingness to, well, play.

We tell these stories because we want to be heroes. While heroes do occasionally die (and sometimes they also come back), having each high level fight end in one or two deaths of the main characters of your story starts to sound like maybe you don't really like your friends that much, more than an epic tale of heroism and derring-do.

Getting back to status conditions that aren't save or die, characters (and monsters) must first be afflicted with the weaker statuses before becoming susceptible to the stronger statuses. This means it takes 2 or 3 saves, instead of one, and several actions from the bad guy(s), to completely incapacitate someone with a strong condition.

Sure, a fighter with a weak Will save will likely still become 'frightened' eventually, even under these rules, but he'll get one or two rounds to actually participate in the fight, instead of simply being taken out before he even gets to act. (Sitting out a whole fight because your character class was designed to be bad at a particular thing is another thing that makes me want to shoot kittens. And I like kittens. Who doesn't?)

This is a shameless plug for Epic Path, of course, but this link (http://epicpath.org/index.php/Status_Conditions) provides the status conditions in our game, sorted by severity, as well as the rules for using these arrays. Any game could incorporate just the status array rules without using any of the rest of Epic Path and run just fine. Of course, we'd love it if you ran a game using Epic Path's rules, but free country, and all that.

I hope it at least stirs up some new ideas.

[Ortesk]

This is a shameless plug for Epic Path, of course, but this link (http://epicpath.org/index.php/Status_Conditions) provides the status conditions in our game, sorted by severity, as well as the rules for using these arrays. Any game could incorporate just the status array rules without using any of the rest of Epic Path and run just fine. Of course, we'd love it if you ran a game using Epic Path's rules, but free country, and all that.

I hope it at least stirs up some new ideas.

At the risk of being off topic, I read those status effects and will talk about implementing them with my group. They seem to make great sense (the fact they compound slowly instead of instantly being lawl, you suck n00b) and the fact they wear off even if the player isn't lucky. Will read the rest later, and message you any quetions