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View Full Version : "Gee-Dubs just doesn't care" - Warhammer 40,000 codex rewrites



Tome
2016-04-21, 04:54 PM
I've been rewriting some of the weaker codices in 40k as a little project of mine. Partly because I enjoy homebrewing this sort of thing, partly because I feel bad for the CSM and Tyranid players.

After I brought it up in the main 40k thread some folks actually showed interest, so here's a proper thread for talking about it or showing off your own work.

Chaos Space Marines (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FRZr0Rirqr-oGe3qE1Ax3x5Qk9fmj6WGL1Hd58ENnAI/edit?usp=sharing)

Tyranids (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18plimdzY4OXVlRztkdn4mdukSwLOXhVTC2i7Bx_PPr8/edit?usp=sharing)

Comments are enabled on both docs, so please feel free to add your own thoughts. I don't actually play either of these codexes, or anything other than Tau, so my own own sense of balance may be a bit off here.

JNAProductions
2016-04-21, 04:56 PM
Woot! Work on those Marines! And dem Giant Bugs!

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 05:10 PM
In the process of reading through the Chaos rework now. You gave Possessed a second wound, bless you good sir.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-21, 05:29 PM
I was always hoping to knuckle down to an Inquisition codex. Maybe this thread will provide the impetus for that!

Tome
2016-04-21, 05:36 PM
In the process of reading through the Chaos rework now. You gave Possessed a second wound, bless you good sir.

I was this close to just making them Gal Vorbak with a different name.


I was always hoping to knuckle down to an Inquisition codex. Maybe this thread will provide the impetus for that!

I heartily encourage you to. :smallbiggrin:

I'll add it to the first post if you end up doing it.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 05:42 PM
I was this close to just making them Gal Vorbak with a different name.



I heartily encourage you to. :smallbiggrin:

I'll add it to the first post if you end up doing it.

Well i better get on that Ork and Sisters rewrite then. Honestly those two are so close to being solid Codexes that its gonna read like an Errata document, with lots of point fixing.....

LeSwordfish
2016-04-21, 05:45 PM
In fact, lets lay down some specific guidelines for that now.


Some models have the "Puritan" or "Radical" special rule.

You can't take models of both kinds in your army.
Puritans get Sanctic Daemonology as Grey Knights, Radicals get Malefic as Daemons.
Radicals use a different Allies Matrix: Friendlier with Daemons and aliens, no longer Battle Brothers with Armies Of The Imperium.

Inquisitorial Retinues are now sets of Independent Characters. They pass one rule on to squads they join, and then another one if with an Inquisitor.

For example: A Sage gives Preferred Enemy (Everything) to his unit. When the sage accompanies an Inquisitor, the Inquisitor and their unit gain re-rolls on all rolls to wound.
A Crusader auto-passes Look Out, Sir! rolls, and if in base contact with the Inquisitor, the Inquisitor gets the 3++ save.

The idea being you can build your Inquisitor up to mega-character proportions, but most of it is done through the retinue - so the characterful "One Of Everything" unit is the best way to play.
Warrior acolytes and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as troop choices.
Relics: At least one that gives an inquisitor T4. At least one that gives an inquisitor Eternal Warrior.

Manticoran
2016-04-21, 05:50 PM
In fact, lets lay down some specific guidelines for that now.


Some models have the "Puritan" or "Radical" special rule.

You can't take models of both kinds in your army.
Puritans get Sanctic Daemonology as Grey Knights, Radicals get Malefic as Daemons.
Radicals use a different Allies Matrix: Friendlier with Daemons and aliens, no longer Battle Brothers with Armies Of The Imperium.

Inquisitorial Retinues are now sets of Independent Characters. They pass one rule on to squads they join, and then another one if with an Inquisitor.

For example: A Sage gives Preferred Enemy (Everything) to his unit. When the sage accompanies an Inquisitor, the Inquisitor and their unit gain re-rolls on all rolls to wound.
A Crusader auto-passes Look Out, Sir! rolls, and if in base contact with the Inquisitor, the Inquisitor gets the 3++ save.

The idea being you can build your Inquisitor up to mega-character proportions, but most of it is done through the retinue - so the characterful "One Of Everything" unit is the best way to play.
Warrior acolytes and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as troop choices.
Relics: At least one that gives an inquisitor T4. At least one that gives an inquisitor Eternal Warrior.



Should proooobably be the same relic.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 05:52 PM
Should proooobably be the same relic.

I agree, hell just make it a cool suit of Power Armor

Tome
2016-04-21, 06:42 PM
I agree, hell just make it a cool suit of Power Armor

Artificer Armour. The only suit of Artificer armour in the entire codex.

Apart from Coteaz' bling, obviously. :smalltongue:


Well i better get on that Ork and Sisters rewrite then. Honestly those two are so close to being solid Codexes that its gonna read like an Errata document, with lots of point fixing.....

I actually had some thoughts on the Sororitas. Mostly regarding tweaking the acts of faith system and giving them an option for a customisable Living Saint unit.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 06:44 PM
Artificer Armour. The only suit of Artificer armour in the entire codex.

Apart from Coteaz' bling, obviously. :smalltongue:

This is better, this should also be kinda Pricey as its pretty awesome.


I actually had some thoughts on the Sororitas. Mostly regarding tweaking the acts of faith system and giving them an option for a customisable Living Saint unit.

That was my thought too, i was also gonna add like 2-3 new units just to fill out the book more. AoF wise they are going to look kinda like they did in 5th with the whole Faith Points thing, but they are going to have a bunch of "Generic" AoF like they did in 2nd plus each unit will have their own unique one.

And ya, custom Living Saints, they all would have the same statline (it would look a lot like Celestines), Eternal Warrior and a 3+/4++ base. After that you are buying stuff.

Alent
2016-04-21, 07:09 PM
Some Tau non-fish Auxiliaries might be nice to add in to this, but as green as I am I don't know that I could help write them. (I guess that makes me as good as GW, but I aspire to better.)

Since, y'know, GW will never fix Vespid or add Nicassar to the game.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 07:14 PM
Some Tau non-fish Auxiliaries might be nice to add in to this, but as green as I am I don't know that I could help write them. (I guess that makes me as good as GW, but I aspire to better.)

Since, y'know, GW will never fix Vespid or add Nicassar to the game.

And i love Vespid, both Models wise and Role Wise. They are so close to not sucking, personally i would just make up an entire Tau Auxiliaries Ally Codex.

Tome
2016-04-21, 07:17 PM
As much as I love my Tau, I'll point out that one thing I've been trying really hard to do is not add anything that would require new models or a custom conversion.

If we want there to be a chance of these rules being usable, we can't be requiring people to convert up something that doesn't have a model.


That was my thought too, i was also gonna add like 2-3 new units just to fill out the book more. AoF wise they are going to look kinda like they did in 5th with the whole Faith Points thing, but they are going to have a bunch of "Generic" AoF like they did in 2nd plus each unit will have their own unique one.

And ya, custom Living Saints, they all would have the same statline (it would look a lot like Celestines), Eternal Warrior and a 3+/4++ base. After that you are buying stuff.
I had an idea for Living Saints where you could basically feed them Faith Points to increase their strength and toughness.

(Make sure they have an innate 5++ or better instead of 6++, plus Fear. Gotta keep up the 'Living Saints are actually daemons of the Emperor' implications.)


Puritans get Sanctic Daemonology as Grey Knights, Radicals get Malefic as Daemons.

I object to Radicals not suffering the consequences of dabbling in the forbidden arts. It is kind of supposed to be a thing that happens to them. A lot.

They certainly shouldn't be far gone enough to count as Daemons. Maybe a different benefit for them? Access to Spell Familiars maybe?

Blackhawk748
2016-04-21, 07:21 PM
As much as I love my Tau, I'll point out that one thing I've been trying really hard to do is not add anything that would require new models or a custom conversion.

If we want there to be a chance of these rules being usable, we can't be requiring people to convert up something that doesn't have a model.


I had an idea for Living Saints where you could basically feed them Faith Points to increase their strength and toughness.

(Make sure they have an innate 5++ or better instead of 6++, plus Fear. Gotta keep up the 'Living Saints are actually daemons of the Emperor' implications.)

Yup they get 3+ armor and 4+ Invuln, obviously theres an upgrade to get the armor to a 2+

Edit: and now i have been struck with Vespid related inspiration!

The Stingwing Strain gets these changes: +1 Strength, +1 Attack, 2 Close Combat Weapons, and their CC Weapons are now AP 5 with Shred (i think they already have Shred). The Stingwings are now actually not crap in Melee.

New Units!

Vespid Screamwing Strain: Uses the same statblock as current Vespid except, they have Jump Shoot Jump instead of Hit and Run, their Neutron Blaster is Range 24" Assault 2. Now they are good at range.

Vespid Drones (Jump Infantry)



Unit
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
SV


Vespid Drone
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
6
5+


Drone Strain Leader
3
3
3
3
1
1
1
8
4+



Wargear
Crystal Blaster

Special Rules
Move Through Cover
Fleet

Crystal Blaster Range 18" S:4 AP- Assault 2

Thankfully the alternate Vespids wont be a huge problem models wise as they are, virtually, the same. The Drones will be weird though.

Voidhawk
2016-04-22, 01:29 AM
Been reading what you've been doing to Tyranids, and I have to say I like it so far. You've patched some of the basic holes like everything dying to bolters, and Instinctive/Synapse being a downside rather than an upside. But I want to point out the biggest hole they have:

Tyranids are bad at dealing with vehicles.

This is very well known of course, and has been a part of the codex at least as long as I've been playing it. But when you start to think about what it means, you'll realise that every time the 'dex has struggled, or been locked into a mono-build, this was the core reason.

Why are Hive Guard and Zoanthropes always fighting for Elite slots? They are the best/only ranged option for popping tanks.
Why are Crones infinitely preferable to Harpies in flying lists? Tentaclids kill vehicles.
Why are Flyrants preferable to either Crones or Harpies? Toughness, Pysker, and Electroshock grubs are a Tentaclid that always hits.

The Troops units in every other army all have a basic transport available (and in the case of the Gladius, for free). These increase manoeuvrability, survivability, and versatility by bringing different weapons and being able to hold a second objective. Since 'Nids don't get them, they must be able to compete with the ones that everyone else does, and in the Troops slot.

This means Nid troops need to gain in those areas. Maneuverability is helped by making Genestealers immune to bolters again, as Rending Infiltrate deals with alot of issues. Versatility and Manoeuvrability are harder. But dealing with the opponents vehicles without leaning too hard on other slots will probably require a buff to the guns Warriors get.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-22, 02:12 AM
I object to Radicals not suffering the consequences of dabbling in the forbidden arts. It is kind of supposed to be a thing that happens to them. A lot.

They certainly shouldn't be far gone enough to count as Daemons. Maybe a different benefit for them? Access to Spell Familiars maybe?

I disagree - I think it's slow, creeping corruption and mental decay, not "your head asplode". I guess there does need to be a middle ground, however - Radicals should be obviously more twisted and have access to darker tools, but probably shouldn't be more at home with Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps a +1 to the Perils table? So radicals are still running a risk but are less likely to suck themselves into the warp.

Re: The relic: my concern with a single item giving T4 AND Eternal Warrior AND being the only source of a 2+ save is that it would be expensive - too much so for an inquisitor in a small game.

What about:
Red Carapace......... 45pts
While no mortal can expect to match the tenacity or courage of the space marines, some inquisitors take years of gene therapy and chemical enhancement to approach their physical form.
The Red Carapace gives +1 Strength and Toughness. These are added to the model's profile at deployment, so are taken into account before multipliers (such as powerfists, or calculating the threshhold for Instant Death). The model also gains the Eternal Warrior special rule. However, the model takes -1 Initiative.

So that's a lot, but you can still pick up Artificier Armor without it.

Tome
2016-04-22, 03:28 AM
That's a very good point on the nids.

Okay, I've buffed venom cannons to be viable anti-vehivle and made them one per three for warriors. Hormagaunts and Genestealers both have options for getting up the field quickly.


I disagree - I think it's slow, creeping corruption and mental decay, not "your head asplode". I guess there does need to be a middle ground, however - Radicals should be obviously more twisted and have access to darker tools, but probably shouldn't be more at home with Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps a +1 to the Perils table? So radicals are still running a risk but are less likely to suck themselves into the warp.

Radical inquisitors should not be better able to summon daemons than chaos sorcerers.

And even for radicals, summoning daemons is not something they do lightly. I'd say the should get some other minor benefit not related to daemonology.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-22, 03:49 AM
Radical inquisitors should not be better able to summon daemons than chaos sorcerers.

I'd say that's on the heads of the Chaos Sorcerors, isn't it?:smalltongue:

I do accept your point otherwise. I'd like Radicals and Puritans to be broadly balanced: Perhaps the additional alliance options will help with that.

Drasius
2016-04-22, 01:06 PM
Please remove the Champions of Chaos rule. Forced challenges don't make any sense for anyone other than khorne. The boon table should be the incentive to challenge, it shouldn't be a mandatory thing.

In the Tzeentch Psychers bit, you've given them the allowance to generate from Div... but you already gave all psychers the ability to generate div in the first army wide rule of the document. Redundant.

CSM at 12 ppm are now the same costs as battle sisters. I'm not saying that it's not good or balanced, but it is jarring (until you re-write the sisters dex).

Possessed seem ... rather strong, but then, they've been unplayable for so long it's not funny, but requires play testing.

Note that you'll have to add the chaos razorback, since it doesn't exist. Probably want to delete the assault cannon option since we dump them on Cadia before we get to the eye.

Why are raptors the same cost as basic CSM? Gaining jump packs and fear for free seems odd. Suggestion: Let them take 2 options out of the melee or ranged wargear (can be mix/matched). Not overly strong, but I'd like guys with jump packs and fear to be able to do some actual fighting in CC.

Warp talons could use a price drop, even with assault grenades because as it stands, even after your changes, I'm still taking Raptors (actually, even more so because not only are raptors now 5 ppm cheaper, but they can take a power weapon or fist on someone other than the chap, which gives them enough punch to win combat, but not enough that they'll butcher everything in 1 round and then get shot up). If I really want AP3, I'm taking a heldrake.

Speaking of heldrakes, it needs a 40 point cost reduction with the baleflamer as a 40-50 point upgrade. At least this way we might see somebody take the hades version. Probably not, 4 str 8 ap4 shots at BS3 is pretty terrible, but at least this way it could serve as a bit of a heavier stormtalon sort of role.

The Defiler desperately needs a drastic points drop or a huge buff. 195 points for a 4 Hp dreadnaught with a battle cannon is a terrible deal. A Soul Grinder has +1 armour all round and the ability to take marks for 30 points less. The defiler goes after krak grenades and is hit on 3's. It has 2 attacks base. It can't fire any of its other guns if it fires the battle cannon. It can't fire that battle cannon if it fires the flamer, it costs points to replace the pointless guns with fists. The defiler should be somewhere around 125-140 odd points as is, even then it still wouldn't get a look in against obliterators. WS3, BS3, I3 with 2 attacks isn't the mark of a killing machine.

The forgefiend needs a points correction, maybe a 20-30 point drop. They're pretty rare as it is, and virtually nobody takes the plasma cannons since its only use is as a poor mans AA with the autocannons.

No-one is leaving a land raider on the shelf because it doesn't have a multi melta, it's still not going to be taken because it's a 230 point box with barely more survivability than a rhino because of destroyer, grav and haywire.

Night lords need something else for their chapter tactics. You've handed out fear and made raptors troops, but raptors already have fear, negating one of the benefits. Fear is less bad when even marines have to test (though at ld 9 or 10, it's not really relevant), but there's virtually anything worth making take a fear test is already fearless. They've still got no way to get into CC and you've removed some of the better units available to them (see Oblits, spawn, new possessed). The nightfight thing is nice and thematic, but it doesn't really benefit them to any great degree since they don't get stealth or shrouded on anything. Also, small typo of 44+ invulnerable save on Black Halo.

Typo of 1520 points for wyrdskull in world eaters. World eaters still can't get into combat. +1 WS doesn't matter when you're shot to hell and back before you get into CC. Still virtually no options for choppy berserkers to deal with anything with a 3+ or better save. Still 19ppm for basically a marine statline.

Death guard are technically getting an increase to imitative as written since reduce by negative 1 is the same as +1, though the intent is clear.

I think a typo on the Thousand Sons master sorceror, is that meant to be 5 points or 25?
Thousand Sons rhinos are now 60 points each because they must take psychic pilot. This is not ideal.
Their Sarge is now 47 point instead of 58, but has lost his force weapon, inferno bolts and fearless. You've actually increased his effective cost. This is ... not really an improvement, though perhaps the ability to not roll on the tz table is enough to balance it out. I doubt it though.
May I suggest that instead of Ld test to lose SnP, grant them relentless when there's a psycher in the unit?
They don't really get any better, and since they are terrible to start with, IMHO they need a rethink.
The fact that you commented that you'd rather remove them altogether rather than fix them isn't a good sign.

Overall, Iron warriors, word bearers and alpha legion make out like bandits, everyone else is a non starter.

Doombolt might be a touch strong for WC1, but a bit weak for WC2.
Boon of tzeentch is pretty terrible, since damaging your own guy isn't a winner. Sorcs only having 2 wounds and trying to cast a bunch means perilsing a bunch. Lowering the str to 3 at least means wounding on 5's, but you're spending warp charge to do it, so I'm not sure there's any real gain overall. A discipline is judged strongly on the primaris and this one just isn't good. Flavourful, but not good. Consider that a lot of the current Tz power table could be forgiven if doombolt was the primaris.
Breath is a nice change from the current incarnation which is terrible for WC2. I like it. Occassionally you'll pop a riptide or dreadknight, but they're both quite silly anyway. Rolling for 6's with only 1 hit is never going to be something to rely on.
Flicker is interesting, needs playtesting but WC means that unless you're utilising both benefits, it's not overly strong for WC2. I like it.
Mantle, no, this is the old puppetmaster and for WC2 it's too strong.
Rift is a GoI clone, fine.
Doombolt was already good, it doesn't need to be stronger with a new name.
Gateway is a difficult one to balance. A large blast autocannon is OK for WC2, but you're going to get the odd game where it's a volcano cannon. Probably fine most of the time though.

CSM still suffer from not being able to generate enough warp charge. I doubt that this will change with your re-write, but that's a common theme for everyone without a cast on 2's or 3's mechanic inbuilt into their psychers.

The warlord table also desperately needs fixing as they're all pretty terrible (unless you're facing SM, then the PE:(SM) one is OK. You're probably still rolling strategic or personal though.

Tome
2016-04-22, 04:18 PM
Please remove the Champions of Chaos rule. Forced challenges don't make any sense for anyone other than khorne. The boon table should be the incentive to challenge, it shouldn't be a mandatory thing.
An excellent point. Consider it done.


In the Tzeentch Psychers bit, you've given them the allowance to generate from Div... but you already gave all psychers the ability to generate div in the first army wide rule of the document. Redundant.
Thanks for pointing that out, it's now fixed.


CSM at 12 ppm are now the same costs as battle sisters. I'm not saying that it's not good or balanced, but it is jarring (until you re-write the sisters dex).

It basically comes down to the question of how much ATSKNF and Combat Squads are worth. I felt 2 points per model was a decent place to start, but I can see an argument for only 1 point.


Possessed seem ... rather strong, but then, they've been unplayable for so long it's not funny, but requires play testing.

Mmm, I took a little from the Gal Vorbak in 30k and then gave them a vastly improved mutations rule. Not quite sure how they stack up now. Maybe they need points tweaks. Maybe some of the mutation options need toning down. As you say, they need testing.


Note that you'll have to add the chaos razorback, since it doesn't exist. Probably want to delete the assault cannon option since we dump them on Cadia before we get to the eye.

Hmm... After some research, it appears that Razorbacks only came about long after the Heresy. So they'd be restricted to more recent renegades.

I'll take them off the list.


Why are raptors the same cost as basic CSM? Gaining jump packs and fear for free seems odd. Suggestion: Let them take 2 options out of the melee or ranged wargear (can be mix/matched). Not overly strong, but I'd like guys with jump packs and fear to be able to do some actual fighting in CC.
Because I was mimicking the space marine codex where Assault Marines are the exact same cost as tactical marines. I assumed that the cost in this case is not being Troops (AKA Objective Secured).

I figured that giving them a special melee weapon per every five models was a good equivalent to loyalist assault marines getting Eviscerators at the same ratio. Apparently, that makes Assault Marines actually usable?

Hmm... though Fear seems kind of odd for them to have, outside of being Night Lords. I guess I'll get rid of it on the generic Raptors.


Warp talons could use a price drop, even with assault grenades because as it stands, even after your changes, I'm still taking Raptors (actually, even more so because not only are raptors now 5 ppm cheaper, but they can take a power weapon or fist on someone other than the chap, which gives them enough punch to win combat, but not enough that they'll butcher everything in 1 round and then get shot up). If I really want AP3, I'm taking a heldrake.

Hmm, true. Not sure how many points to knock them down though. Maybe... 24 points per model?


Speaking of heldrakes, it needs a 40 point cost reduction with the baleflamer as a 40-50 point upgrade. At least this way we might see somebody take the hades version. Probably not, 4 str 8 ap4 shots at BS3 is pretty terrible, but at least this way it could serve as a bit of a heavier stormtalon sort of role.
A good point. I'll do that.


The Defiler desperately needs a drastic points drop or a huge buff. 195 points for a 4 Hp dreadnaught with a battle cannon is a terrible deal. A Soul Grinder has +1 armour all round and the ability to take marks for 30 points less. The defiler goes after krak grenades and is hit on 3's. It has 2 attacks base. It can't fire any of its other guns if it fires the battle cannon. It can't fire that battle cannon if it fires the flamer, it costs points to replace the pointless guns with fists. The defiler should be somewhere around 125-140 odd points as is, even then it still wouldn't get a look in against obliterators. WS3, BS3, I3 with 2 attacks isn't the mark of a killing machine.

Errrr... you are looking at the 6e CSM codex, right? The Defiler is 3 attacks base with two power fists default for 4 attacks. The Autocannon is a free swap to a power fist too. Only the flamer costs points to trade away.

That aside, you're right, it does need a points drop. Hmm... let's drop it down to 130 points and reduce the cost of trading the flamer for a Power Scourge to... 10 points, I'd say.


The forgefiend needs a points correction, maybe a 20-30 point drop. They're pretty rare as it is, and virtually nobody takes the plasma cannons since its only use is as a poor mans AA with the autocannons.

Yeah, 175 points is a bit much. Down to 150 I'd say.


No-one is leaving a land raider on the shelf because it doesn't have a multi melta, it's still not going to be taken because it's a 230 point box with barely more survivability than a rhino because of destroyer, grav and haywire.

Mmm, unfortunately it's on parity with its loyalist counterpart already, less 20 points for the lack of PotMS. Not quie sure where to take it.


Night lords need something else for their chapter tactics. You've handed out fear and made raptors troops, but raptors already have fear, negating one of the benefits. Fear is less bad when even marines have to test (though at ld 9 or 10, it's not really relevant), but there's virtually anything worth making take a fear test is already fearless. They've still got no way to get into CC and you've removed some of the better units available to them (see Oblits, spawn, new possessed). The nightfight thing is nice and thematic, but it doesn't really benefit them to any great degree since they don't get stealth or shrouded on anything. Also, small typo of 44+ invulnerable save on Black Halo.

Heh. Type corrected.

I've removed Fear from Raptors, so at least that's not redundant now. I've also buffed it a bit more - it now ignores Fearless too, and there's no Ld benefit either.

Actually, they do get Stealth. That's what Night Fighting gives in 7e, universal Stealth. Still no Shrouded though.


Typo of 1520 points for wyrdskull in world eaters. World eaters still can't get into combat. +1 WS doesn't matter when you're shot to hell and back before you get into CC. Still virtually no options for choppy berserkers to deal with anything with a 3+ or better save. Still 19ppm for basically a marine statline.

Wyrd skull points cost fixed. Thanks for catching that.

They're not 19ppm though, they're 15ppm. The WS5 and Furious Charge are their legion rule so they get it for free, MoK is 2 points, then chainaxes are 1 point. Another point if you want them to keep their boltguns, I suppose.

Hmm, still, they do need an option to deal with high saves... eh, I'll make Chainaxes Rending and a bit more expensive.

(I've just given up on distinguishing the cult units from their parent legions - what were Khornate Berzerkers are now just basic World Eaters CSM units.)


Death guard are technically getting an increase to imitative as written since reduce by negative 1 is the same as +1, though the intent is clear.

Ack, I'll reword that to clarify.


I think a typo on the Thousand Sons master sorceror, is that meant to be 5 points or 25?
Thousand Sons rhinos are now 60 points each because they must take psychic pilot. This is not ideal.
Their Sarge is now 47 point instead of 58, but has lost his force weapon, inferno bolts and fearless. You've actually increased his effective cost. This is ... not really an improvement, though perhaps the ability to not roll on the tz table is enough to balance it out. I doubt it though.
May I suggest that instead of Ld test to lose SnP, grant them relentless when there's a psycher in the unit?
They don't really get any better, and since they are terrible to start with, IMHO they need a rethink.
The fact that you commented that you'd rather remove them altogether rather than fix them isn't a good sign.

I was still toying with the Master Sorcerer thing. I think, considering it should be a bit cheaper than otherwise as part of the legion rules, that I'll put it at 15 points. Maybe 10?

Psychic Pilot and Aspiring Sorcerer upgrades knocked down to 20 points.

The sarge does not have to be a sorcerer now. He can be a regular rubric for +1 point instead. If you do take him ... 20 points for ML 1, 3 points for Inferno Bolts, 2 points for the MoT. If you really want the force weapon, take a power weapon for 15 and get the free swap. Sarges are also, in general, costed at 5 points less. Soooo... 52 points for what was a 58 point model.

Again, Rhinos do not have to upgrade to being psykers. They can also be Rubrics instead, if you aren't trying to get extra warp dice with 20 point psyker upgrades. They even get a 5++ out of it, though I suppose they lose the ability to Flat Out... I'll add some wording to let Sorcerers get rid of that.

The big problem, previously, was that Thousand Sons were expensive and came with an even more expensive, non-optional sorcerer. The basic rubric marines are now 18 points down from 23. The sorcerer is now optional, and still a bit cheaper even then.

Admittedly, they lost Fearless like every other Cult unit. I'm still trying to figure out a way to get that back without just spraying Fearless all over the entire codex.

Still... hmm, maybe drop the Inferno Bolts by a point?


Overall, Iron warriors, word bearers and alpha legion make out like bandits, everyone else is a non starter.

Emperor's Children, Black Legion and Renegades are still under revision.

Death Guard have what are basically 15 point Plague marines as their troops. Though... I suppose Iron Warriors are getting that for two points more if they go MoN and get other stuff on top of it. Hmm... maybe Iron Warrior Augmetics are a bit too cheap. I'll make the Augmetics a bit more expensive. Maybe I should give DG a minor morale buff? Then again, free FnP is pretty potent.

Thousand Sons can spam psykers and get enough warp dice to compete with the strongly psychic codices. They have to pay some extra points for it but mass psykers and AP3 basic guns are pretty good.

World Eaters, admittedly, need a little more of a buff.


Doombolt might be a touch strong for WC1, but a bit weak for WC2.
Boon of tzeentch is pretty terrible, since damaging your own guy isn't a winner. Sorcs only having 2 wounds and trying to cast a bunch means perilsing a bunch. Lowering the str to 3 at least means wounding on 5's, but you're spending warp charge to do it, so I'm not sure there's any real gain overall. A discipline is judged strongly on the primaris and this one just isn't good. Flavourful, but not good. Consider that a lot of the current Tz power table could be forgiven if doombolt was the primaris.
Breath is a nice change from the current incarnation which is terrible for WC2. I like it. Occassionally you'll pop a riptide or dreadknight, but they're both quite silly anyway. Rolling for 6's with only 1 hit is never going to be something to rely on.
Flicker is interesting, needs playtesting but WC means that unless you're utilising both benefits, it's not overly strong for WC2. I like it.
Mantle, no, this is the old puppetmaster and for WC2 it's too strong.
Rift is a GoI clone, fine.
Doombolt was already good, it doesn't need to be stronger with a new name.
Gateway is a difficult one to balance. A large blast autocannon is OK for WC2, but you're going to get the odd game where it's a volcano cannon. Probably fine most of the time though.

I'll knock a shot off of Doombolt.

The intent with Boon is that you only use it on models with lots of powers, like ML3 Sorcerers. It is already a S3 hit though, I will point out. It's intended to be laughed off by the Sorcerer. I could remove the hit though, and probably make it not be the Primaris... eh, no reason not to use Bolt of Change there.

Increase Mantle to WC3 or come up with a new power?

Bolt of Change has it's name because someone muddled up the names and effect of two traditional CSM powers in the current codex. Doombolt is supposed to be a more rapid fire power with no affinity to a particular god, Bolt of Change is the Tzeentch one that does the big death beam. :smallmad: But yes, I can see your point. I'll switch it's rules back.


CSM still suffer from not being able to generate enough warp charge. I doubt that this will change with your re-write, but that's a common theme for everyone without a cast on 2's or 3's mechanic inbuilt into their psychers.

Agreed, not much that can be done about it... aside from Thousand Sons, who can make the units you were going to take anyway into psykers. Or that's the intent anyway.


The warlord table also desperately needs fixing as they're all pretty terrible (unless you're facing SM, then the PE:(SM) one is OK. You're probably still rolling strategic or personal though.

I'll add it to the to do list.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-22, 04:32 PM
Assault Marines are the same cost as Tactical Marines because they don't come with the Jump Packs as base: you pay three points per model to upgrade them.

Tome
2016-04-22, 04:42 PM
Assault Marines are the same cost as Tactical Marines because they don't come with the Jump Packs as base: you pay three points per model to upgrade them.

Reading comprehension fail on my part. :smallsigh:

Let's fix that then.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-22, 04:48 PM
Hmm... After some research, it appears that Razorbacks only came about long after the Heresy. So they'd be restricted to more recent renegades.

I'll take them off the list.


Dont. A Razorback is nothing more than a Rhino with a gun Duct Taped onto it. It doesnt take a genius to make one.

Personally i say give the Defiler the old Lumbering Behemoth special rule from the Leman Russ (and the Leman Russ should get that back...) and give all Land Raiders (including Loyalist ones) Invincible Behemoth. Granted it doesnt stop Grav or Haywire but it does stop them from blowing up to a lucky Melta shot.

Tome
2016-04-22, 06:02 PM
Dont. A Razorback is nothing more than a Rhino with a gun Duct Taped onto it. It doesnt take a genius to make one.

Eh, sure. I wrote up a profile for it and added it back in.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-22, 06:19 PM
Eh, sure. I wrote up a profile for it and added it back in.

Interesting, this is my version:


Chaos Razorback 55pts
BS 4 11/11/10 3HP
Wargear
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
Searchlights
Smoke Launchers

Transport
Six models. It cannot carry models with the Bulky, Very Bulky or Extremely Bulky special rules.

Fire Points 0

Access Points: One in the Rear and one on each side.

Options:
May exchange the Twinlinked Heavy Bolter for one of the following:
Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer-Free
Hades Autocannon-15 pts
Twin Linked Lascanon-20 pts
Twin Linked Daemon Cannon-20 pts

Daemon Cannon- Range 36" S 6 AP 3 Heavy 3

Ah what the hell, ill chuck the rest of the Motorpool in here:


Chaos Land Speeder 70pts
BS4 AV10/10/10 2HPs Vehicle (Speeder)
Wargear:
Hades Autocannon,
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules
Daemonically Infused
Scout

Options
May take up to two additional Chaos Land Speeders 70pts
May exchange the Hades Autocannon for a Baleflamer* free
May purchase one of the following:
Heavy Flamer 5 pts
Reaper Autocannon 10pts
Lascannon 15
Missile Pods 25pts

Daemonically Infused- The unit ignores Crew Shaken and Crew Stunned results on a 2+ and has a 5+ invulnerable save.

Missile Pods- Missile Pods may fire in one of 2 formats
Frag Missiles 48" S 4 AP 6 Heavy 2, Blast
Krak Missile 48" S8 AP 3 Heavy 2

*A Baleflamer mounted onto a Chaos Landspeeder replaces its Torrent range with Template.


I hate the current Daemonic Possession rules as they make the thing worse at shooting, which i find confusing as 2 of the 4 Chaos Gods main minions are good at shooting (even if they dont have guns)


The first Skullhammer was commissioned by Abbadon for the 12th Black Crusade, sadly only a few were finished by the time Abbadon led his attack. The ones that where finished he brought with him, and they were devastating. Since there where so few of them, the Imperium thought they where simply unique Land Raiders and reacted accordingly. Now with the 13th Black Crusade just beginning Abbadon has had the Iron Warriors making even more of these impressive war machines, and they shall use the blood of the enemy to grease their tracks.

Skullhammer Battle Tank 250 pts
BS 4 14/14/14 HP 4
Wargear
Turret Mounted Battle Cannon
2 Sponson Mounted Reaper Autocannons
1 Hull Mounted Reaper Auto Cannon

Special Rules
Daemon Assisted
Altar of the Blood God
Lumbering Behemoth
Invincible Behemoth

Options
May Substitute any Reaper Autocannon for a Twin Linked Inferno Heavy Bolter- 5pts

Daemon Assisted: This unit has Power of the Machine Spirit USR.
Altar of the Blood God: All freindly units with the Mark of Khorne or Daemon of Khorne special rule within 12" of the Skullhammer gain Zealot
Lumbering Behemoth: Firing an Ordanace weapon does not force the units other weapons to fire Snap Shots

Inferno Heavy Bolter Range 36" S 5 AP 3 Heavy 3, Soul Blaze



This is a Blackhawk original and my first attempt at an actually unique Chaos Vehicle. I have no idea if its actually worth its points. Note that it hasnt gotten a price increase over a normal Land Raider because i feel that the Land Raider (and the Monolith) should both have Invincible Behemoth and that Leman Russ', Land Raiders and Monoliths should all have Lumbering Behemoth as they are very stable firing platforms.

If you're curious as to how to model it, take a Leman Russ turret and slap it on top of a Land Raider. Thats pretty much it.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-22, 06:20 PM
Honestly I believe that the reason Chaos don't have Razorbacks is as part of keeping them enjoyably distinct from ordinary marines. If one takes the "they could have made one" argument as read, you could give Chaos anything that marines have including Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannons, Drop Pods... and then the armies lose some important aspects of what make them different.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-22, 06:23 PM
Honestly I believe that the reason Chaos don't have Razorbacks is as part of keeping them enjoyably distinct from ordinary marines. If one takes the "they could have made one" argument as read, you could give Chaos anything that marines have including Land Speeders, Thunderfire Cannons, Drop Pods... and then the armies lose some important aspects of what make them different.

But it makes 0 sense if you are playing Renegades, as they should totally have those things. Im all for Chaosifying them though. I am now thinking of Chaos Marks for vehicles.....

Also, i dont think its the vehicles that make either of these armies distinct, considering pre 6th Chaos had like, 1 unique vehicle, the Defiler.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-22, 06:32 PM
Sure, it doesn't make sense in fluff. But this is a game, where one must occasionally make decisions because they make for a good game. Strong diversity across armies is one of those decisions. Chaos Marines being "Marines, plus some daemon-y" stuff is boring.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-22, 06:37 PM
Sure, it doesn't make sense in fluff. But this is a game, where one must occasionally make decisions because they make for a good game. Strong diversity across armies is one of those decisions. Chaos Marines being "Marines, plus some daemon-y" stuff is boring.

Except thats what they are. Thats all Chaos Marines have ever been. Marines + Daemon Stuff = Chaos Marines, and its not like they dont have their own unique stuff. Hell Loyalists ripped off the Obliterators and Mutilators with the Centurion suits, so why not rip off two vehicles that should have always been a thing?

Note that i am also all for giving CSM even more unique vehicles, as currently most of their Motorpool is just Loyalist stuff with a few Daemon Engines. Hell someone on another Forum (where i originally made those vehicles) recommended Cult Predators, which i am in the process of making.

Bluydee
2016-04-22, 10:03 PM
Would be good, but sadly there are no new rules for Doomrider, so I'd have to give this codex a 0 bikers/10.

For real though, most of the changes look pretty good. The one thing I'd suggest is keeping the Slaanesh psychic powers mostly the same. I'd say Ecstatic Seizures could keep its cost of 2 Warp Charges.

Voidhawk
2016-04-23, 05:15 AM
I think the difference here is between newly turned Chapters of "Renegade Marines" like Huron Blackheart, and full on "Chaos Legions" like the World Eaters. And really they need separate army lists, or even codexes (as loath as I am to encourage another marine dex). At the very least, you need to make a mission-statement of which one you are trying to write.

Renegades have access to most of the Loyalist inventory but only a few daemonic tricks, and has reduced leadership etc to represent infighting. Legions has big holes in the armoury (no Razorbacks etc) but vastly more daemonic corruption and nastiness (forgefiends, cult troops). Neither have access to the same tactics/formations as Loyalists, so the same gear may be used in radically different ways. Both should get Drop Pods, an omission that has never made any sense in fluff or outside of it (though maybe not the Drop Pod assault rule, so they're more unreliable).

Drasius
2016-04-23, 05:26 AM
Both should get Drop Pods, an omission that has never made any sense in fluff or outside of it (though maybe not the Drop Pod assault rule, so they're more unreliable).

Always annoyed me how you constantly hear about traitors and renegades podding in (doubly galling since it's apparently the main thing that crimson slaughter uses and is specifically stated to be a thing in the dark vengance books/audiodramas) and yet crack open a CSM dex and they don't get them.

Tome
2016-04-23, 06:02 AM
Always annoyed me how you constantly hear about traitors and renegades podding in (doubly galling since it's apparently the main thing that crimson slaughter uses and is specifically stated to be a thing in the dark vengance books/audiodramas) and yet crack open a CSM dex and they don't get them.

Hmm... switch the storm bolter for a combi-bolter and the deathwind launcher for a havoc launcher? Sounds about right.

I'll go through the loyalist armoury and see what else might need to be added. Anything crusades era is going to be ported over for everyone, including grav weapons, while post-heresy stuff will be added to the Renegades legion armoury.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-23, 10:09 AM
Well....i just got done reading (what was to me) a fairly amusing argument about the 3.5 CSM codex, and it made me realize that that book had a ton of cool stuff in it. It had some stupid stuff too, but a bunch of it was awesome.

Tome
2016-04-23, 10:40 AM
Well....i just got done reading (what was to me) a fairly amusing argument about the 3.5 CSM codex, and it made me realize that that book had a ton of cool stuff in it. It had some stupid stuff too, but a bunch of it was awesome.

Hmm... I should go back and look through it for ideas, I think.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-23, 10:42 AM
Hmm... I should go back and look through it for ideas, I think.

It cant hurt, and the vast majority of CSM players of that era look back at it fondly. That book could have been perfect if it had gone another round or two through the editor.

Tome
2016-04-23, 03:10 PM
Hmm, how do folks think Terminators, Bikers and Maulerfiends stack up currently?

I've also, I think, finished giving all of the legions their special rules. Still need to go over their armouries though.

Emperor's Children get to move 1d3 inches whenever they take wounds outside of assault. They also have mandatory challenges, but get re-rolls to hit, rending and count challenge wounds twice for combat resolution as compensation.

World Eaters have been given a once per game run-then-charge, but must always declare charge when possible for the rest for the game after using it. They still get Furious Charge and +1 WS.

Black Legion can re-roll 1s for reserves. They also get to re-roll 1s to hit when shooting within 12" or in assaults where they outnumber the enemy.

Renegades can invoke the blessing of each of the four gods once per game, re-rolling 1s on a particular type of roll appropriate to the god (and an improved benefit for models with the appropriate Mark). They also get PE (Armies of the Imperium) but give Imperials Hatred against them.

Tvtyrant
2016-04-23, 03:15 PM
Chaos Terminators are pretty bad, I think you should move their T up to 5 or in some way balance their issues because as is they are only good at one thing, which is triple combi weapon deepstriking, and not very good at that.

JNAProductions
2016-04-23, 03:29 PM
Chaos Terminators are pretty bad, I think you should move their T up to 5 or in some way balance their issues because as is they are only good at one thing, which is triple combi weapon deepstriking, and not very good at that.

Maybe give them access to a 3+ Invuln somehow?

Tome
2016-04-23, 03:43 PM
Maybe give them access to a 3+ Invuln somehow?

Hmm... maybe giving them access to a 4++, which can then stack with the MoT?

Yeah, letting Chaos Termies take Sigils of Corruption at a bit of a discount sounds like a decent idea. Maybe Chosen too, albeit at full price.

Tvtyrant
2016-04-23, 04:47 PM
Personally I like the idea of dropping their base point cost down to 22ish, around where bikes are. They are slower and have lower toughness than the bikes, but slightly better saves. Also I would let groups of three take a rhino, so they don't need a land raiser tax to accomplish things.

JNAProductions
2016-04-23, 05:40 PM
Personally I like the idea of dropping their base point cost down to 22ish, around where bikes are. They are slower and have lower toughness than the bikes, but slightly better saves. Also I would let groups of three take a rhino, so they don't need a land raiser tax to accomplish things.

Rhinos can't take Bulky models.

Jormengand
2016-04-23, 05:46 PM
Rhinos can't take Bulky models.

That can be changed, though.

JNAProductions
2016-04-23, 05:49 PM
That can be changed, though.

Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-23, 05:53 PM
You're right - those loyalists just can't catch a break.

Jormengand
2016-04-23, 05:53 PM
Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.

That can be changed too. :smalltongue:

Or maybe give them an upgrade to take terminators? "Improved storage" or something.

JNAProductions
2016-04-23, 05:54 PM
Extra-Dimensional Storage Space?

LeSwordfish
2016-04-23, 05:55 PM
That could be more chaosy - "ruined construction" - can take Bulky models, gets Open-topped. (So they get to charge out, too)

Tvtyrant
2016-04-23, 06:19 PM
Yeah, but that'd make Chaos Rhinos outright better than Loyalist Rhinos.

Balance isn't about making things identical, it is about making general equilibrium. Chaos does not have drop pods, for instance, so their other transports need to be better or they are in fact behind.

Drasius
2016-04-23, 06:30 PM
Hmm, how do folks think Terminators, Bikers and Maulerfiends stack up currently?

Terminators have their niche (112 points for 3 guys with combi melta). It's not strong and it's not common or even very good, but some lists can make use of them. They're 95 for 3 and 31 ppm for each one after that and come with a power weapon base. A power fist is 7 ppm. Loyalist tacticals are 35 and come with a powerfist base and all the other benefits of being a loyalist (ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics etc). CSM Termies need to go down to 28 ppm just to be equivalent to vanilla termies (or make the power fist upgrade cheaper, but we all know termies are pretty bad anyway). This would give them roughly double the durability of a tactical marine against small arms for roughly double the price. The free power weapon can be seen as the tradeoff for not getting Obsec or filling the mandatory force org slots.

Bikers are dependant on the HQ you take. MoN (T6) or MoS (FNP banner) are both an even trade for spawn, but MoT and MoK are both unusable and can't be troops like in the vanilla dex. Not sure what to do to fix them without making them a copy of vanilla marine bikers and the MoT and MoK still won't be taken in a CSM list (MoT gives a 6++ and MoK can be done better through the gorepack from KDK).

Maulerfiends are probably fine. Maybe a 5-10 point downwards adjustment, but they're basically a 12" move dread with the ability to ignore terrain and a 5++. WS3 and I3 hurts, but they're priced about right IMHO. They're a conerstone of the AV12 rush that was popular a few years back before crazy things like scatbikes became a thing.

Voidhawk
2016-04-24, 08:20 AM
I've also, I think, finished giving all of the legions their special rules. Still need to go over their armouries though.

Emperor's Children get to move 1d3 inches whenever they take wounds outside of assault. They also have mandatory challenges, but get re-rolls to hit, rending and count challenge wounds twice for combat resolution as compensation.

World Eaters have been given a once per game run-then-charge, but must always declare charge when possible for the rest for the game after using it. They still get Furious Charge and +1 WS.
I think you should stop creating special rules that come with downsides, because they're never a good idea. Either the downside is worse than the upside and it will never see play, or it's trivial and a waste of rules. The number of times GW has made balanced downsides I could count on one hand.

Mandatory challenges are both bad and unnecessary. If they're good in a duel, they'll be challenging all the time and it doesn't matter. If the player is in a situation they don't want to challenge, it means the duelling rules aren't good enough to let them function the way you want. Rather than buffs to damage you really want to cover the downsides to challenges: improve survivability while dueling (to cover loss of LoSir!), and penalise the enemy for not accepting (to make it actually come up). Or even make it so the enemy HAS to accept.

Giving World Eaters a waaaagh is pretty awesome, but making them lose control of their entire army afterwards is not worth anything.

Bluydee
2016-04-24, 09:37 AM
Actually, looking over it, how about you give all the Space Marines a ATSKNF equivalent or Fearless? The removal of Veterans of the Long War means there isn't an easy way to alleviate the problem unless you take Icons of Vengeance on all your units.

Tome
2016-04-24, 09:58 AM
Actually, looking over it, how about you give all the Space Marines a ATSKNF equivalent or Fearless? The removal of Veterans of the Long War means there isn't an easy way to alleviate the problem unless you take Icons of Vengeance on all your units.

I'd rather err on the side of not letting another army just universally negate such a huge chunk of mechanics by handing out Fearless.

Still... hmm, maybe some sort of buff. I suppose I could up Leadership, particularly on champions. A universal special rule boosting their ld tests for certain things is another option.

Yeah, that sounds decent. Up the cost of the marines by 1 point (13 points for basic CSM, thematic) and give them a special rule that lets them do the old 'roll three dice, discard the highest' thing for morale and Fear tests?

Blackhawk748
2016-04-24, 11:53 AM
You could just make them Stubborn.

Tome
2016-04-24, 12:04 PM
You could just make them Stubborn.

Stubborn doesn't actually do much. The only leadership tests you take penalties on normally are when you lose an assault. The big reason some morale based rule might be called for is morale tests from shooting, which Stubborn does nothing for.

But yeah, added the 'Sanity is for the Weak' rule and upped point costs by 1 to pay for it.

Zman
2016-04-24, 01:27 PM
GW drove me away from 40k, but prior to leaving I had accomplished much of a massive codex/game rebalancing. You are welcome to use my work as a starting point or for ideas, and if you use any of it I'd appreciate a shoutout. It is a touch out of date, but a large amount of the foundations are there or can be extrapolated. Links to all main codifies should be there.

Zagman's Masochistic Edeavor: A Balance Errata for 40k (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648525.page)

Blackhawk748
2016-04-24, 02:35 PM
GW drove me away from 40k, but prior to leaving I had accomplished much of a massive codex/game rebalancing. You are welcome to use my work as a starting point or for ideas, and if you use any of it I'd appreciate a shoutout. It is a touch out of date, but a large amount of the foundations are there or can be extrapolated. Links to all main codifies should be there.

Zagman's Masochistic Edeavor: A Balance Errata for 40k (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/648525.page)

Oh look, Zag-Hammer, also i didnt know you where on GitP.

The Patterner
2016-04-25, 03:19 PM
Hi, a Thousand sons player de-lurking here.

I like what you have done, but I have some ideas for my favorite legion :smallredface:


Thousand Sons

The Rubric of Ahriman: All models with the Legionnes of Chaos (Thousand Sons) special rule must take exactly one of the following upgrades:

•Aspiring Sorcerer: Any character that is not already a Psyker may take this upgrade. The model gains the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) special rule ...20 points per model
I'd say that all characters have to be psykers, fits with the whole "all is dust" fluff.


•Brotherhood of Sorcerers: Any unit of Chosen or Chaos Terminators may take this rule. The entire unit gains the Brotherhood of Sorcerers (Mastery Level 1) special rule …35 points per unit
Maby make it so that chosen and terminators have to take the brotherhood of psyker rule and make their powers pre-determined, like Grey knights?

•Master Sorcerer: Sorcerers must take this upgrade. Models with this special rule may generate one additional psychic power, beyond what their Mastery Level would normally provide ... 15 points per model


•Psychic Pilot: Any Vehicle may take this upgrade. The model gains the Psychic Pilot (Mastery Level 1) special rule ...20 points per model
Love both of these.

Rubric Marine: Any non-Psyker, non-Independant Character model may take this upgrade. The model gains the Slow and Purposeful special rule and a 5+ Invulnerable save. A Thousand Sons Psyker may, at the start of your turn, take a Leadership test to temporarily remove the Slow and Purposeful rule for one turn from any Rubric Marines in their unit or a Rubric Marine transport Vehicle that they are embarked upon ...1 point per model
This is the one I'd like to change the most. Maby something like this:
All havocs and Chaos space marine units must take this upgrade.
Gain aura of dark glory
Slow and purposefull
Fearless
-1 to WS, BS and I.[/

If a psyker with MoT is part of the unit, replace Slow and purposeful with relentles.

Maby that's to much? I like the basis for Thousand sons, so I'd like to keep some of that.
:biggrin:

Zman
2016-04-25, 03:36 PM
Oh look, Zag-Hammer, also i didnt know you where on GitP.

Haha, yep. Glad I'm remembered, though I hope it is fondly and not infamously! I kind of wished GW didn't rapidly increase the frequency the were outputing garbage so I could have kept up, but at the pace they were going I lost interest in anything 40k and got rid of everything but my gorgeous Farsight Army.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-25, 05:05 PM
Haha, yep. Glad I'm remembered, though I hope it is fondly and not infamously! I kind of wished GW didn't rapidly increase the frequency the were outputing garbage so I could have kept up, but at the pace they were going I lost interest in anything 40k and got rid of everything but my gorgeous Farsight Army.

Ya, there was a lot of......questionable things. Sad to hear about that though.

And yes it was fondly as i was doing a bunch of re writes of things on Dakka Dakka and someone pointed me at your version. Its not to my taste but it is well designed.

Zman
2016-04-25, 08:07 PM
Ya, there was a lot of......questionable things. Sad to hear about that though.

And yes it was fondly as i was doing a bunch of re writes of things on Dakka Dakka and someone pointed me at your version. Its not to my taste but it is well designed.

Thank you, I put quite a bit of effort into it and wanted to use a light hand i.e. point rebalancing for the vast majority of tweaks. I wish you the best of luck with your endeavors.

The Patterner
2016-04-25, 10:02 PM
Still... hmm, maybe some sort of buff. I suppose I could up Leadership, particularly on champions. A universal special rule boosting their ld tests for certain things is another option.

Yeah, that sounds decent. Up the cost of the marines by 1 point (13 points for basic CSM, thematic) and give them a special rule that lets them do the old 'roll three dice, discard the highest' thing for morale and Fear tests?

How about a rule that they ignore morale checks, pinning test etc. if within 12 from a independenr character? Sort of them being more afraid of their own then the enemy.

Call it "might makes right" or something.

Saambell
2016-04-26, 12:47 PM
Now that Buffing CSM is well underway, Lets Nerf Space Wolves (An Overpowered Tournament Winning Army) to the ground. Cause Wolves are dumb, and we should make the people who play them feel bad for using such Cheese.

Step 1: Remove ALL mentions of Thunderwolves. Marines who ride wolves? That's dumb. (This includes Logan's Sleigh, cause that thing is stupid)
Step 2: Increase ALL Model's Point Cost by 5. 10 points for Characters. 20 Points for Vehicles. This stacks. So Bjorn is now +35 points. A Unit of 5 is now +25 points.
Step 3: Reduce Stat boosts from Wargear, and Remove Frost Weapons. Call it Primitive Tools, cause these Savages should have bad Wargear. So a Power Sword now has -1 Str and AP4, a Power Axe is Str:User and AP3, and Power Armour is now a 4+ save. All melee weapons get Unwieldy because Wolves just flail their weapons in the direction of the enemy, cause they are wild animals.
Step 4: Rune Priests can only cast Daemonology(Malefic), cause they are Heretics. (Feel free to drop this and find some other way to get these guys to scream Heretic if Malific is too powerful)
Step 5: Drop Iron Priests. Wolves are too dumb to know how machines work.
Step 6: Reduce ALL model's Ballistic Skill. Wolves only know how to punch things in the face, they shouldn't be able to shoot well.
Step 7: Make a rule that you can only ever use formations/models from the base codex. Cause Wolves are too dumb to be organised, and Wolfen are shot on sight like the dirty mongrel mutants they are.
Step 8: Drop them from the list of Imperial Armies, cause they are basically Renegades.

Space Wolves are Dumb and Horrible, and this will hopefully make them Horrible. Feel free to find more ways to Nerf them if what I have here leaves them too powerful.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-26, 12:53 PM
Angry Space Wolves stuff

http://stabmag.com/assets/Uploads/2015/04/cant-tell-if-serious.png

Honestly i almost want to put all the Space Marines into a Mega Codex and just give all the Big Chapters their own section, as all of them have a tone of overlap. This also stops the kind of crap that the Blood Angels are dealing with.

JNAProductions
2016-04-26, 12:58 PM
Angry Wolf Shenanigans

You're not serious, right? Especially since Space Wolves aren't even near the top tier.

Tvtyrant
2016-04-26, 04:16 PM
Now that Buffing CSM is well underway, Lets Nerf Space Wolves (An Overpowered Tournament Winning Army) to the ground. Cause Wolves are dumb, and we should make the people who play them feel bad for using such Cheese.

Step 1: Remove ALL mentions of Thunderwolves. Marines who ride wolves? That's dumb. (This includes Logan's Sleigh, cause that thing is stupid)
Step 2: Increase ALL Model's Point Cost by 5. 10 points for Characters. 20 Points for Vehicles. This stacks. So Bjorn is now +35 points. A Unit of 5 is now +25 points.
Step 3: Reduce Stat boosts from Wargear, and Remove Frost Weapons. Call it Primitive Tools, cause these Savages should have bad Wargear. So a Power Sword now has -1 Str and AP4, a Power Axe is Str:User and AP3, and Power Armour is now a 4+ save. All melee weapons get Unwieldy because Wolves just flail their weapons in the direction of the enemy, cause they are wild animals.
Step 4: Rune Priests can only cast Daemonology(Malefic), cause they are Heretics. (Feel free to drop this and find some other way to get these guys to scream Heretic if Malific is too powerful)
Step 5: Drop Iron Priests. Wolves are too dumb to know how machines work.
Step 6: Reduce ALL model's Ballistic Skill. Wolves only know how to punch things in the face, they shouldn't be able to shoot well.
Step 7: Make a rule that you can only ever use formations/models from the base codex. Cause Wolves are too dumb to be organised, and Wolfen are shot on sight like the dirty mongrel mutants they are.
Step 8: Drop them from the list of Imperial Armies, cause they are basically Renegades.

Space Wolves are Dumb and Horrible, and this will hopefully make them Horrible. Feel free to find more ways to Nerf them if what I have here leaves them too powerful.

This is terrible. Not liking an aescetic is no reason to gut it and ruin in for the people who do like it. I don't like Space Marines very much, doesn't mean I want to make all of their bolters gets hot.

I failed me sense motive check. Sorry.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-26, 05:15 PM
I'm pretty sure its a joke guys.

Saambell
2016-04-26, 07:01 PM
It was a joke.

I noticed significant overlap of those who have complained about Space Wolves in the other threads, and those here. I was seeing if I could get anyone to agree that Space Wolves need to be nerfed.

My largest collection of Models is Imperial Guard, and they are in the lower end of the Tier Listing. My second is actually Space Wolves, so I was seeing if I could get 2 useless piles of plastic in my room. When I look at those tournament lists I see Cheesegear post, and I see SW in some of the higher ends, I just know someone out there is demanding them to be nerfed. Even when its only 1-3 models in the entire codex being used, and most of the 'dex is ignored as the Knock Off Marines that they are.

Wolf Lords: Captain with no access to Eternal Warrior, and no orbital bombardment.
Grey Hunters: Tactical Marines with no access to heavy weapons
Blood Claws: Ork Mob that maxes out at 15 models though with 3+ armour save, which is mostly worthless.
Wolf Scouts: Is an elite choice, and cant take Landspeeder Storms.
Vehicles are just a copy of the 6th Edition Marines codex.
Thunder Wolves: are busted, and probably need a boost in point slightly. But in the end, they are basically 2 Bike Veterans each, with poor shooting options.

The only thing making them really powerful is the Company of the Great Wolf formation that lets them skip Tax Units and jump right to Iron Priests with Thunderwolf mounts and Cyberwolves that let them join Death Stars made from Other Armies Units.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-26, 07:09 PM
My biggest complaint with Space Wolves was the Wulfen, and mostly because their Special Melee weapons are way to good for the price and are just better for no real reason. If they were priced accordingly i wouldnt be complaining.

JNAProductions
2016-04-26, 07:50 PM
So in working on my own Thousand Sons mini-Dex based on the Grey Knights. Will post my progress when I get home.

JNAProductions
2016-04-27, 12:43 PM
Summoner-This model cannot generate or cast powers from Sanctic Daemonology, but only perils on a double 6 when casting Malefic Daemonolgy.

Champion of Chaos-As per the CSM Codex, but you are not required to challenge.

Witchfire
24" Range, Sd6+2, AP-, Assault 1, Blast, Inferno

Inferno-For each model removed as a casualty as a result of this power, the remainder of the unit immediately takes a further d3 S3 AP- hits. If these extra hits cause a casualty, they cause a further one S2 AP- hit. The S2 hits do not generate any extra damage.

Blessing

Boon of Mutation targets a single friendly character within 2". First, the character immediately takes a S3 AP- hit. If they survive, they must roll on the Chaos Boon table, re-rolling Dark Apotheosis.

Beam

18" Range, S8, AP1, Assault 1, Detonate

Detonate-If Doombolt causes a vehicle to Explode, roll 2d6 for the explosion distance.

Witchfire

Template Range, S1, AP 2, Assault 2, Corrosion, Poisoned (4+)

Corrosion-Do not roll for armour penetration against vehicles touched by this template. Instead, they suffer a glancing hit on a 4+.

Beam

24" Range, Sd6+4, AP 2, Assault 1

Witchfire

18" Range, Sd6+4, AP 1, Assault 1, Large Blast

Blessing

This blessing targets the Pysker. All units with the Mark of Tzeentch within 12" of someone with this blessing increase their invulnerable save by 1, to a maximum of 2+.

Chainaxe-3 pts
Soulfire Claw-10 pts
Tzeentchian Power Weapon-10 pts
Soulhacker-15 pts

S User, AP3, Melee, Shred, Specialist Weapon, Force

As normal power weapons, but with Force.

S X2, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy, Force

Combi-Bolter-2 pts
Combi-Flamer, -Melta, or -Plasma-5 pts
Plasma Pistol-10 pts
Plasma Gun-15 pts
Flamer-5 pts
Soulbow-10 pts

24" Range, S4, AP5, Assault 3, Force

Combi-Flamer, -Melta, or -Plasma-5 pts
Tzeentchian Power Weapon-12 pts
Soulfire Claw-12 pts
Soulhacker-17 pts
Chainfist-22 pts
Soulbow-15 pts

Soulfire Claw-2 pts
Soulhacker-5 pts
Chainfist-10 pts

Melta Bombs-5 pts
Jump Pack-15 pts
Chaos Bike-20 pts
Sigil of Corruption-25 pts

Ichor Blood-2 pts
Gift of Mutation-8 pts
Aura of Dark Glory-15 pts
Combat Familiar-10 pts
Spell Familiar-25 pts
Disc of Tzeentch- 30 pts




WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Lord
6
5
4
4
3
5
3
10
3+


High Lord
6
5
4
4
3
5
3
10
3+



Wargear
Power Armour
Boltgun
Close Combat Weapon
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Bolt Pistol
Inferno Bolts

Special Rules
Fearless
Independent Character
Psyker (Masery Level 1-Lord) (Mastery Level 2-High Lord)
Champion of Chaos
Summoner
Hatred (Space Marines)
Mark of Tzeentch

Psyker
May generate powers from Tzeentch, Biomancy, Malefic Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy.

Options
May take items from the Melee, Ranged, Chaos Rewards, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chaos Artifacts tables.
May take Terminator Armour-30 pts
May upgrade to High Lord-30 pts




WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Sorcerer
5
4
4
4
2
4
2
10
3+



Wargear
Power Armour
Force Stave
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Boltgun
Bolt Pistol
Inferno Bolts

Special Rules
Fearless
Independent Character
Pysker (Mastery Level 2)
Champion of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch
Summoner
Hatred (Space Marines)

Psyker
May generate powers from Tzeentch, Biomancy, Malefic Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy.

Options
May upgrade to Mastery Level 3-25 pts
May take from the Melee, Ranged, Chaos Rewards, Special Issue Wargear, and Chaos Artifacts tables
May take Terminator Armour-30 pts




WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Warpsmith
4
4
4
4
1
4
1
9
2+



Wargear
Fleshmetal
Boltgun
Force Axe
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Mechatendrils

Special Rules
Fearless
Independent Character
Pysker (Mastery Level 1)
Champion of Chaos
Mark of Tzeentch
Hatred (Space Marines)
Summoner
Shatter Defenses
Master of Machines
Second In Command (DOes not take an HQ slot if taken with another HQ choice)

Psyker
May generate powers from Tzeentch, Biomancy, Malefic Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy.

Options
May take from the Ranged, Chaos Rewards (but cannot take a Disc of Tzeentch), and Chaos Artifacts tables
May replace Mechatendrils with dual Tzeentchian Flamers-20 pts

Template Range, S5, AP4, Assault 2, Force

Here's what I've got my Thousand Sons min-dex so far. Based off of Grey Knights, for heavy Psykery.

Tome
2016-04-27, 03:59 PM
Sorry for the absence, a bit busy with college work right now.


•Aspiring Sorcerer: Any character that is not already a Psyker may take this upgrade. The model gains the Psyker (Mastery Level 1) special rule ...20 points per model
I'd say that all characters have to be psykers, fits with the whole "all is dust" fluff.


•Brotherhood of Sorcerers: Any unit of Chosen or Chaos Terminators may take this rule. The entire unit gains the Brotherhood of Sorcerers (Mastery Level 1) special rule …35 points per unit
Maby make it so that chosen and terminators have to take the brotherhood of psyker rule and make their powers pre-determined, like Grey knights?Making it mandatory would, yes, be more fluffy. However one of the big problems with TSons is that the aspiring sorcerers are big, expensive upgrades that you might not want.

So I intentionally made it optional for unit champions/chosen/termies. That way you can just pay the 1 point per model to be a Rubric Marine if having a psyker in the unit wouldn't be useful. You can just assume that the unit in under the care of one of the other sorcerers.

Do note that ICs can't be Rubrics and thus have to upgrade to psykers, meaning that there will always be at least one sorcerer around. It's only non-IC characters that get a choice.
Rubric Marine: Any non-Psyker, non-Independant Character model may take this upgrade. The model gains the Slow and Purposeful special rule and a 5+ Invulnerable save. A Thousand Sons Psyker may, at the start of your turn, take a Leadership test to temporarily remove the Slow and Purposeful rule for one turn from any Rubric Marines in their unit or a Rubric Marine transport Vehicle that they are embarked upon ...1 point per model
This is the one I'd like to change the most. Maby something like this:
All havocs and Chaos space marine units must take this upgrade.
Gain aura of dark glory
Slow and purposefull
Fearless
-1 to WS, BS and I.[/

If a psyker with MoT is part of the unit, replace Slow and purposeful with relentles.

Maby that's to much? I like the basis for Thousand sons, so I'd like to keep some of that.
:biggrin:
You'll note that they're already getting SnP and the 5++ that the Aura gives from what I gave them. While I could nerf their stats to make it a free upgrade... that hasn't ever been part of their profile. 3rd, 4th and 6th edition codices all have TSons with full marine statlines.

The only other difference is Fearless, and that's intentional. I'm trying to avoid just handing out Fearless as an army-wide thing, particularly on ObSec units. It's both a very powerful rule and makes so many otherwise interesting builds and rules absolutely pointless. There is a formation I'm thinking of including that would give it back to them in exchange for the loss of ObSec.


Summoner-This model cannot generate or cast powers from Sanctic Daemonology, but only perils on a double 6 when casting Malefic Daemonolgy.
No. Bad homebrewer. *smacks on nose with newspaper*

The Thousand Sons are sorcerers, not specialist diabolists. Chaos Sorcerer does not automatically equal master daemonologist, and even master daemonologists are still taking incredible risks each time they summon up a daemon. Proliferating summoning powers is also bad for balance, and the fluff doesn't call for TSons to have specialised expertise in it. Maybe some ability to resist perils in general would help if you want them to be able to play with it a little more?

The specialist daemonologists would be the Word Bearers, and even they don't get to skip out on the risks. :smalltongue:

If you want to give the TSons a bias towards a particular discipline, the fluff options are either give them a minor perk for Tzeentch Powers or let each unit have an affinity towards one of the five cults (aka the five core book disciplines) they had pre-heresy.


Primaris-Tzeentch's Firestorm-Warp Charge 1
Witchfire
24" Range, Sd6+2, AP-, Assault 1, Blast, Inferno

Inferno-For each model removed as a casualty as a result of this power, the remainder of the unit immediately takes a further d3 S3 AP- hits. If these extra hits cause a casualty, they cause a further one S2 AP- hit. The S2 hits do not generate any extra damage.
A single small blast with no AP nor the ability to reliably harm AV? One one will want this. Worse it's the Primaris, which can somewhat make or break a discipline.

Beyond that, Witchfires are just bad due to all the additional chances to fail that they have. It's fluffy for Tzeentch to have a few, but only a few.


Boon of Mutation-Warp Charge 1
Blessing

Boon of Mutation targets a single friendly character within 2". First, the character immediately takes a S3 AP- hit. If they survive, they must roll on the Chaos Boon table, re-rolling Dark Apotheosis.
Eh, decent enough.


Doombolt-Warp Charge 1
Beam

18" Range, S8, AP1, Assault 1, Detonate

Detonate-If Doombolt causes a vehicle to Explode, roll 2d6 for the explosion distance.[/SPOILER]
There's a reason I switched the name of this power back to Bolt of Change. Doombolt has, in all sources other than the 6e codex, been described as more of a multi-shot power than a single anti-tank calibre blast.

[QUOTE=JNAProductions;20716468]Breath of Chaos-Warp Charge 2
Witchfire

Template Range, S1, AP 2, Assault 2, Corrosion, Poisoned (4+)

Corrosion-Do not roll for armour penetration against vehicles touched by this template. Instead, they suffer a glancing hit on a 4+.
Witchfires suuuuuuuuuuck. Especially when they're WC2. An AP2 flamer is not worth the cost, there's a reason I rewrote this power.


Bolt of Change-Warp Charge 2
Beam

24" Range, Sd6+4, AP 2, Assault 1
Multiply redundant power with the previous Doombolt Bolt of Change. It is, however, notably worse due to being way too costly in Warp Charges and having a variable strength that adds yet another point of failure to it. Normal witchfires are already chancy as all get out due to requiring five different rolls, any one of which can negate the power if failed. It does not need a sixth.

Besides, you already have a Bolt of Change. You don't need two.


Infernal Gateway-Warp Charge 2
Witchfire

18" Range, Sd6+4, AP 1, Assault 1, Large Blast
Yeah, basically what I did. Do note however that WC 2 is one warp charge too many. Remember I mentioned witchfires have a lot against them? A witchfire should not take more than 1 warp charge unless it has something really special, like Strength D.


Tzeentch's Strength-Warp Charge 1
Blessing

This blessing targets the Pysker. All units with the Mark of Tzeentch within 12" of someone with this blessing increase their invulnerable save by 1, to a maximum of 2+.

No. Just no. The existing powers are bad enough. Do not, under any circumstance, introduce yet another way to get a stupid 2++ into the game. They are anti-fun.

If you really must introduce a way to buff invulnerable saves, it should include the line "no combination of rules, wargear, psychic powers or other effects that includes this one can ever improve an Invulnerable save to better than 3+". Because otherwise you're shooting at a stupid unkillable deathstar and that's no fun for anyone, particularly once someone lays hands on a reroll saves effect.





WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Lord
6
5
4
4
3
5
3
10
3+


High Lord
6
5
4
4
3
5
3
10
3+



Wargear
Power Armour
Boltgun
Close Combat Weapon
Frag Grenades
Krak Grenades
Bolt Pistol
Inferno Bolts

Special Rules
Fearless
Independent Character
Psyker (Masery Level 1-Lord) (Mastery Level 2-High Lord)
Champion of Chaos
Summoner
Hatred (Space Marines)
Mark of Tzeentch

Psyker
May generate powers from Tzeentch, Biomancy, Malefic Daemonology, Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis, and Telepathy.

Options
May take items from the Melee, Ranged, Chaos Rewards, Special Issue Wargear, and/or Chaos Artifacts tables.
May take Terminator Armour-30 pts
May upgrade to High Lord-30 pts

There's no such thing as a 'High Lord'. No self respecting Chaos Lord would go by the same title as those useless tossers, the High Lords of Terra. :smalltongue: And the only difference appears to be a Mastery Level? Just buying an extra mastery level is an upgrade you can have on it's own, no need for a new profile.

Especially in the case of Thousand Sons, who shouldn't even have Chaos Lords - their leaders are Sorcerers. The less capable psychics who might none the less be potent warriors? They got turned into Rubrics.

If you wanted to represent that you could make some sort of 'Rubric Champion', a Rubric Marine who was formerly an exceptional warrior. Make them a non-compulsory HQ choice (so you have to take another HQ) that can't be your warlord to represent that Rubrics have no initiative of their own.

Also! It should not be Hatred (Space Marines). The Thousand Sons hate Space Wolves in particular (something about burning down their house?). If you want to express the more generalised hatred all CSM have, Hatred (Imperium of Man) works far better and has the nice side benefit of countering the most powerful special rule in the game. :smalltongue:


Template Range, S5, AP4, Assault 2, Force

Erk! 2 shot, instant death heavy flamer? That's absurd, especially for 20 points. Seriously, do not just stick Force on every weapon to represent it being psyker-y. (I see that three shot Force boltgun. :smalltongue:)

The effect for Tzeentch-y warpflame is to make the weapon AP3. (I favour adding AP3 over AP2 where possible for other reasons too, as it gives Terminators a leg up over the standard marines - the dearth of AP3 and plenitude of AP2 is a bit of lazy design that makes 2+ saves less of an upgrade over 3+.)

JNAProductions
2016-04-27, 04:23 PM
Glad I didn't get too much further in before posting. I'll get rid of the Summoner special rule on all models.

For psychic powers, I mostly just used existing powers (obviously). Armed with the knowledge that they suck, I'll do my best to make new ones. (As a side note, how good is Flickering Fire as a Primaris?)

Good idea for making a Rubric Champion-I'm just working off the Grey Knights and CSM Codex. I'll model the Rubric Champion off of the Brotherhood Champion. And good call on the Space Wolves Hatred-I was just giving them the Veterans of the Long War benefit.

And got it on the AP 3 Tzeetch Fireyness. I'll get rid of force on everything and just make the melee weapons mostly normal. (Though as a note-the Soulbow is based off the Psilencer, with half the shots but a (crappy) AP value.)

Tome
2016-04-27, 04:36 PM
For psychic powers, I mostly just used existing powers (obviously). Armed with the knowledge that they suck, I'll do my best to make new ones. (As a side note, how good is Flickering Fire as a Primaris?)

And got it on the AP 3 Tzeetch Fireyness. I'll get rid of force on everything and just make the melee weapons mostly normal. (Though as a note-the Soulbow is based off the Psilencer, with half the shots but a (crappy) AP value.)

Flickering Fire is decent. It's a pretty bad AP, but it has plenty of shots to make up for it.

Really though, I'd recommend just shifting Bolt of Change into the primaris slot. It's one of the most recognisable Tzeentch powers in 40k and it lets the Thousand Sons have a reliable anti-vehicle option.

Psilencers make a bit of sense for GKs. Daemons, the things they specialise in fighting, are almost universally multi-wound models with no armour save. A low AP gun with Instant Death is a pretty sensible heavy weapon for them. Thousand Sons would probably want something more... them. An AP3 flamer (should be expensive, ignores cover combined with AP3 or lower is very effective), for handling loyalists and better expressing Tzeentch's thinly disguised pyromania, perhaps?

JNAProductions
2016-04-27, 04:49 PM
Flickering Fire is decent. It's a pretty bad AP, but it has plenty of shots to make up for it.

Really though, I'd recommend just shifting Bolt of Change into the primaris slot. It's one of the most recognisable Tzeentch powers in 40k and it lets the Thousand Sons have a reliable anti-vehicle option.

Psilencers make a bit of sense for GKs. Daemons, the things they specialise in fighting, are almost universally multi-wound models with no armour save. A low AP gun with Instant Death is a pretty sensible heavy weapon for them. Thousand Sons would probably want something more... them. An AP3 flamer (should be expensive, ignores cover combined with AP3 or lower is very effective), for handling loyalists and better expressing Tzeentch's thinly disguised pyromania, perhaps?

Will do. I've got several hours with nothing to do tonight, so I'll get more work done.

Tome
2016-04-27, 05:16 PM
One thing the TSons probably do want in their armoury is a force khopesh. Not sure on its exact stats, but it's probably a force sword with an added special rule.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-27, 05:42 PM
Okay, so, I wrote up some Acolyte profiles.

All acolytes have the standard "human" profile (3's across the board) but with LD8. As basic, they have access to Carapace Armor. The general idea is that they can either be parcelled out across the entire army to hand out general buffs - or joined together with the Inquisitor to form a single super-unit. A standard Inquisitorial Detachment would likely consist of a single Inquisitor and 0-10 Acolytes.

Thy Master's Hand
Inquisitorial Acolytes benefit from a unique special rule each. This rule has two levels: One applies when joined to any unit, while one only applies only to inquisitors joined by the Acolyte. Some of these rules refer specifically to an "acolyte cell" - this is a unit comprising entirely of choices from Codex: Inquisition, including at least one Inquisitor, and allied independent characters.

So you can't give super-units the super-powers just by including an acolyte and a cheap inquisitor.

Kill Points
Inquisitorial acolytes do not count as individual units for the purposes of kill points. A kill point is not awarded for killing a single Acolyte - nor is killing one sufficient to count as "wiping out a unit" for the purposes of a Maelstrom objective. For the perspective of objectives, all acolytes from a single detachment are part of a single unit.

Crusader 25pts
Wargear: Power Weapon, Storm Shield
Sworn Protectors: Any Look Out, Sir! roll made to assign a wound to a Crusader automatically passes, and Crusaders automatically pass Heroic Intervention rolls. When in base contact with an Inquisitor, the Inquisitor gains a 3++ invulnerable save.

Crusaders are super-bodyguards, but need to be kept in base contact to be useful.

Mystic
Empyrean Sense: At the end of the enemy movement phase after an enemy unit has entered from Reserve within 24" of the Mystic, roll a D6. If that roll is a 5+, the Mystic and their unit immediately gains the Interceptor special rule and may utilise it as normal. The mystic's unit must roll again next turn in order to use this ability again. If the Mystic is in an Acolyte Cell, treat them as automatically passing this roll.

Interceptor is too powerful an ability to hand out to just anybody at will, so it can be a bit difficult to get (perhaps a leadership test instead?).

Chirugeon
Healing Vials: The Chirugeon's unit gets the Feel No Pain special rule. If this unit is an Acolyte Cell, they get the Feel No Pain (4+) special rule instead.

Warrior Acolyte
Profile: WS 4, BS 4, Init 4, A 2
Wargear: The warrior acolyte may take options from the Warrior Wargear list. Combi- and special weapons, carapace and power armor, plus power weapons and powerfists.
Damnit, not like that!: The warrior acolyte may opt not to shoot or strike blows in close combat in any phase. If they do this, one other model in their unit gains +1 Ballistic Skill or Weapon Skill for the duration of the phase. If this model is an Inquisitor, they get +2 Ballistic Skill or Weapon Skill instead. Multiple Warriors may not provide this bonus to the same squad in the same phase.

Warriors make others in their squad better, which makes sense to me. They're especially good for Challenges. They can be fairly cheap at base since their bonus doesn't stack, making them the bread and butter of a squad. The last caveat is to avoid stuffing squads of, say, devastators with warriors and handing out +1 BS all round.

Scoundrel
Profile: May replace close-combat weapon with an additional pistol.
Know This Place Like The Back Of My Hand: The Scoundrel's unit has the Acute Senses special rule. If this unit is an Acolyte Cell, they gain the Infiltrate special rule.

Not entirely happy with this one, but really want a "Scoundrel" acolyte.

TODO
Psyker
Death Cultist
Tech-Priest
Untouchable
Joakero(?)
Banisher (Puritan Only)
Daemonhost (Radical Only)
Something Puritan and Witch Hunters (Sororitas? Mystic? Penitent?)
Unsanctioned Psyker (Radical Only) (Psyker that has more powerful powers but more perils.)
Something Puritan and Ordo Xenos (...?)
Something Radical and Ordo Xenos (Joakero? I also like the idea of a Xenotech Smuggler, though that could be combined with the Scoundrel)

This gives a total of about 13-15 acolytes: This sounds like a lot. Could maybe use some trimming.

Tome
2016-04-27, 06:34 PM
You could raid DH1 for a few ideas if you wanted.

I remember the... Pyroclast, I think it was, was always one of my favourite alternate careers. I suppose on the tabletop it would be an acolyte with an Incinerator and... preferred enemy (daemons)? Adamantium Will?

Tvtyrant
2016-04-27, 07:04 PM
If this gets big enough I would like Genestealer Cults to be a faction the way Dread Mobs are. The current rules are amazing, but you are limited to a single formation of them and you can't take actual groups of genestealers.

Blackhawk748
2016-04-27, 07:18 PM
If this gets big enough I would like Genestealer Cults to be a faction the way Dread Mobs are. The current rules are amazing, but you are limited to a single formation of them and you can't take actual groups of genestealers.

Its really easy to fix, you just drop all that fixed numbers crap and turn them into normal units. Though the Princelings should probably be capped at like 10 or something.

Tvtyrant
2016-04-27, 11:15 PM
Its really easy to fix, you just drop all that fixed numbers crap and turn them into normal units. Though the Princelings should probably be capped at like 10 or something.

I might need to get my group to let me do this anyway, after Orks they have the coolest models IMO.

JNAProductions
2016-04-27, 11:27 PM
My progress on a Thousand Sons Mini-Dex. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GqkXAxM4FPZw4j8iiGBar8W8cywgNICTVwEgo0Itwu8/edit?usp=sharing)

Tvtyrant
2016-04-28, 01:34 AM
My progress on a Thousand Sons Mini-Dex. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GqkXAxM4FPZw4j8iiGBar8W8cywgNICTVwEgo0Itwu8/edit?usp=sharing)

I left some comments. I like how it is shaping up, looks good.

Jormengand
2016-04-28, 09:33 AM
One thing the TSons probably do want in their armoury is a force khopesh. Not sure on its exact stats, but it's probably a force sword with an added special rule.

Maybe some variant on Killing Blow from WHFB?

Tome
2016-04-28, 12:08 PM
Maybe some variant on Killing Blow from WHFB?

That would be kind of redundant on a force weapon... then again, might be a nice minor perk for those times when you can't get force off.

Jormengand
2016-04-28, 12:10 PM
That would be kind of redundant on a force weapon... then again, might be a nice minor perk for those times when you can't get force off.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Because of the way powers now work, you usually want to spend dice on things that aren't force. Therefore, the killing blow weapon.

Or maybe something like AP2 on a 6-to-wound so you can decapitate the odd terminator.

LeSwordfish
2016-04-28, 12:13 PM
What if a Khopesh could be used as a Force Axe or Sword, chosen before the model attacks each turn?

JNAProductions
2016-04-28, 03:43 PM
Looking over the comments you left, TVT.

Followed your suggestion on Bolt of Change.

Did not on A Changing World-flyers don't really do terrain, so it wouldn't do anything.

Thanks for finding the typo.

Combi-Bolters for TSons, not Storm Bolters. Storm Bolters were a new invention.

Modified Weak Sorcerery to be a 5+ rather than a 6+, but they're a really cheap warp charge. Have to come with some drawback.

Just flat out removed S&P on the Possessed. They're more than dust-they've got daemons in them.

Edit: Thanks for the comments!

Blackhawk748
2016-05-02, 04:55 PM
Heres my current changes to the Ork dex, im sure a bunch of wording needs to get changed or clarified.


'Ere We Go: Add this line. "A unit gains +1 Initiative in addition to the +1 Strength from Furious Charge "

Mob Rule: Change Mob Rule to "The units Leadership is equal to the number of Wounds in the unit or their original Leadership value, whichever is higher (max 10). If this number is more than 10 they gain Zealot)


Change the Power Klaw price to 15 points

Add this Weapon to the Melee Weapons List- Shokk Hammer-15 points, Str +2 AP Special, Two Handed, Melee, Shokk

Shokk: this weapon is AP 4 or it reduces the opponents Armor Save to 4+.
Example: When attacking a Black Templar Crusader Squad, your Shokk Hammer Nob scores 3 wounds. The first is against a Neophyte, whose Carapace armor is ignored, and so he is removed as a casualty. The other two are against an Initiate in Power Armor, so his Armor Save is reduced to a 4+ and he saves as per normal.

Git Finda- change Git Finda to "Grants the Model Ignores Cover"

Change the Kustom Force Field's range to 12" and when embarked upon a vehicle it is reduced to 6" from the vehicle's sides.

Cybork Body: change it to " grants a 5+ invuln save"

Add this Item to Orky Know Wots
Rokkit Pack-3 points

Bosspole- Change it to "Upon failing a Leadership check you may make the unit take one wound and count as having passed. No saves are allowed against this wound and the Wound may not be taken by the wielder of the Bosspole"



Change the Painboy to Painboss.
The Painboss may take 'eavy armor for 4 points
The Painboss may take Mega Nob Armor for 40 points
The Painboss may replace his 'urtly Syringe with a Sergikal Saw for 5 points
The Painboss may take items from Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts and Squigs, Orky Know Whats, and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork

Sergikal Saw S: User AP 3 Melee

Add Painboy cost 30 points
WS 4 BS 2 S 3 T 4 W 1 I 2 A 2 Ld 7 Sv 6+
Wargear
Doks Tools
'Urty Syringe

Special Rules
'Ere We Go
Furious Charge
Mob Rule

Doks: For each HQ choice in a detachment (not including other Doks) you may select a single Dok. These selections do not use up Force Organization slots. Before the Battle immediately after determining Warlord traits, any Dok not already a part of a unit must, if possible, be assigned to a unit with the Infantry or Artilery type. A Dok cannot leave his unit and is treated as part of it for the duration of the battle for rules purposes.

Weirdboy change name to Warphead and increase his cost to 60 points
Change his Psyker Mastery level to 2
Add Biomancy, Pyromancy and Telekinesis to the list of school that a Warphead may generate his powers from.
Add the Rule: "I Feel da Waaagh overtakin me!!"
I Feel da Waaagh overtakin me!!: The Weirdboy gains a 4+ Invuln save when he is within 12" of 10 or more models with the 'Ere We Go special rule.
Add: The Warphead may take items from Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Runts and Squigs, Orky Know Whats, and/or Gifts of Gork and Mork

Add Weirdboy cost 45 points
WS 4 BS 2 S 3 T 4 W 1 I 2 A 2 Ld 7 Sv 6+
Wargear
Weirdboy Staff

Special Rules
'Ere We Go
Furious Charge
Mob Rule
Psyker Mastery Level 1
Waaaagh! Energy
I feel da Waaaagh Overtakin Me!!

Psyker: A Weirdboy generates powers from Biomancy, Daemonology, Pyromancy, Powers of the Waaagh, and Telekinesis.

Mad Boyz: For each HQ choice in a detachment (not including other Weirdboyz) you may select a single Weirdboy. These selections do not use up Force Organization slots. Before the Battle immediately after determining Warlord traits, any Weirdboy not already a part of a unit must, if possible, be assigned to a unit with the Infantry or Artilery type. A Weirdboy cannot leave his unit and is treated as part of it for the duration of the battle for rules purposes.

Add this Wargear Option to the Big Mek
May Substitute his Slugga for a Telly Porta Pack for 30 points

A Big Mek with Mega Nob Armor may take one of the following, Add Tellyporta Pak 30 points

Tellyporta Pak- Grants the model and any attached unit the Deep Strike Rule.

Mek
Add
"May replace his Slugga with a Kustom Force Field for 50 points
May replace his Slugga with a Burna for 5 points"


Ork Boyz: replace the cost of Shootas with "free" and Increase the Boss Nobs Ld to 8. Do this for all further Boss Nob entries.


Stormboyz: add this option "May take 'eavy Armor for 4 points per model"

Trukk: Change the Ramshackle rule to 5+


Burna Boyz: add 'eavy armor to their Wargear

Tabkbustas add may take 'eavy Armor for 4 pts/model

Nobz: reduce the cost of Nobz to 15 points per model, and increase their Ld to 8.


Deff Dredd: add the Rule Ramshackle Beast and Mad Git
Add May take up to 2 additional Deff Dredds for 80 points per model
Add Mega Rockets-15/ppm
Change the Attacks characteristic to 5

Killa Kans: add the Rule Ramshackle Beast
remove Cowardly Grots
Change the Attacks characteristic to 3
Add Mega Rockets-15/ppm

Ramshackle Beast: this unit has a 5+ Invuln save
Mad Git: Deff Dredds ignore Crew Shaken or Stun results on a roll of 4+

Mega Rockets:The unit gains the Jump unit type as described in Warhammer 40k: The Rules. A unit made up of exclusively of units equipped with Mega Rockets can choose to use them to run 2d6" in the shooting phase instead of the normal 1d6", even if the unit used them in the Movement Phase. If it does so, every model in the unit must make a Dangerous Terrain test. Furthermore, if a unit equipped with Mega Rockets uses its Mega Rockets to charge causes d3 Hammer of Wrath hits instead of 1. If the unit already caused D3 Hammer of Wrath hits, such as a Deff Dredd in the Dread Mob Formation, it causes D3+2 Hammer of Wrath hits instead.

Gorkanaught
Add the Assault Vehicle type
Change the Attacks characteristic to 6
Add the rule Invincible Behemoth

Morkanaught
Add the Assault Vehicle type
Change the Attacks characteristic to 6
Add the rule Invincible Behemoth

Flash Gitz: add 'eavy Armor to their Wargear

Battlewagons: Add" Battlewagons that do not have the 'ard Case upgrade may transport Deff Dredds, using 10 transport spaces each, or Killa Kans, using 6 transport spaces each"

Heres the MFD that goes with this:


Da Big Waaaagh!!

Restrictions
This Detachment must include at least 1 Core choice. For each Core choice you must include between 1 and 10 Auxiliary choices, in any combination, and up to one Command choice. Only the Formations listed here may be included in this Detachment.

Note: No Formation in this detachment has Da Boss is Watchin or Da Biggest and Da Best. Also you can use Relics from both Waaagh! Ghazghkull and Codex Orks in any combination, as well as having more than one Relic per model.

Special: When building an army using this detachment choose either the Eternal Waaagh! or Da Right Boyz Fer Da Job. This will be your Command Benefit, if you choose Eternal Waaagh! your Warlord must have the Waaagh! special rule, and if you chose Da Right Boyz Fer Da Job your Warlord must be a Big Mek, Painboss or a Warphead.

Command Benefits
Da Boss:If this Detachment is chosen as your primary Detachment, your Warlord may re-roll his Warlord trait.

Eternal Waaagh!: If this Detachment contains your Warlord and he has the Waaagh! special rule he can call a Waaagh! each and every turn, including the first.

Im Da Boss Now!: If your Warlord with the Waaagh special rule dies, nominate one Character in your army. They become Da Boss and gain the Waaagh special rule and can declare a Waaagh each and every turn. If Da Boss dies you do not gain another.

Da Right Boyz Fer Da Job: If your Warlord does not have the Waaagh! Special Rule he may select 0-3 of the appropriate Oddboy. Warpheads bring Weirdboyz, Big Meks get Meks, and Painbosses get Painboyz. These choices do not take up Auxiliary choices.

Krump'em Lads!: All units in this detachment gain the Hammer of Wrath special rule and resolve Hammer of Wrath attacks at +1 Strength. Furthermore, if a unit already had the Hammer of Wrath rule they cause D3 Hammer of Wrath hits instead of 1.

Command:
Council of the Waaagh!
Mogrok's Bossboyz
Da Leftenants

Da Leftenants
0-2 Big Meks
0-2 Painbosses
0-2 Warpheads
For every Big Mek, Painboss, or Warphead chosen you may purchase a single Mek, Painboy, or Weirdboy respectively.

Core
Green Tide

Da Warband
1 Warboss
3-8 Boyz Mobz
0-4 Gretchin
1-3 Nobz or Meganobz (in any combination)
0-2 Deff Dredds
0-2 Gorkanaughts or Morkanaughts (in any combination)

Howling Horde:Units in this formation gain the Hammer of Wrath Special Rule. If they already have it they resolve Hammer of Wrath hits at +1 Strength. (This stacks with the Krump'em Ladz though units from this Formation will not cause D3 Hammer of Wrath hits)

Warbiker Mob
1 Warboss on a Bike
0-1 Big Mek on Bike
0-1 Painboss on Bike
2-6 Warbikers
1-3 Nob Bikers

Run'em Down: Units from this Formation's Hammer of Wrath hits have Shred.
Dakka Dakka Dakka!!!: When Turbo Boosting the unit may fire at BS 2 instead of 1.

Auxiliary
Dakkajet Skwadron
Ghazghkull's Bullyboyz
Da Vulcha Skwad
Badrukk's Flash Gitz
Blitz Brigade
Red Skull Kommandos
Gorkanaught Krushin Krew
Air Armada
Blitza Bomba Skwadron
Burna Bomba Skwadron

Mekboyz Big Stuff
Add Looted Wagon to the options

Runtz
1-4 Gretchin
0-3 Killa Kans
Restrictions: Must have one Gretchin unit per Killa Kan unit

Grot Effigy: Gretchin within 6" of a Killa Kan unit from this Formation gain Fearless
Get it Back Up!: When a Killa Kan is Wrecked and there is a unit of Gretchin within 6" of the model at the beginning of the controlling player's turn, roll a D6 adding +1 per 10 Gretchin beyond the first within 6". On a 6+ the Killa Kan is restored to full Hull Points and may act normally. Note: A Killa Kan that suffers an Explodes result cannot benefit from Get It Back Up! as there isn't enough parts left to get it back in the fight.

Dredd Mob
1 Big Mek
1-2 Gorkanaughts or Morkanaughts (in any Combination)
1-4 Deff Dredds
2-4 Killa Kans

Wall of Steel Errata: Add "If this unit would already cause D3 Hammer of Wrath hits, they instead cause D3+2 Hammer of Wrath hits"

Speshulists
1-3 units of Stormboyz, Lootas, Tankbustas, Kommandos, Burna Boyz, or Flash Gitz. (Note you must choose only one unit type when choosing this Formation)

Speed Freaks:
1-4 Warbikes or Deffkoptas (in any combination)
0-3 Warbuggies
0-3 Boyz Mobz which must take a dedicated transport and must have one Warbiker mob per Boyz Mob

Hitem in Da Side!!: Warbuggies and Deffkoptas in this Formation gain the Acute Senses Special rule. Warbikers gain the Scout special Rule
Follow Dem!: If the Boyz Mob from this formation is placed in Reserve do not make Reserve rolls for it. Instead it choose a Mob of Warbikers for each Trukk. When the Warbikers come in from Reserves so do the Trukks and they must deploy within 6" of the Warbikers.

Warphead Coven
3 Warpheads*
Restrictions: Warpheads in a Warphead Coven lose their Independent Character rule and are fielded as a single unit.
*May substitute a Warphead for Old Zogwart

I can See Da Future!: Warpheads in the Warphead Coven add Divination to the list of Disciplines they may generate powers from.
Double Double, Toil And Trouble: The Warphead Coven generates on additional Power from the Divination discipline, this power is shared amongst all Warpheads in the Formation. Note: This extra Power does not prevent the individual Warpheads from gaining Psychic Focus.
Enemies Burn and Their Blood Bubble!: Warpheads from the Warphead Coven harness Warp Charges on a 3+ when they are manifesting powers from the Powers of the Waaagh Discipline.



Ill be happy to explain my thinking if you're curious. Also heres some straight up homebrew for the Orks:



Weapons

Melee Weapons
Shokk Hammer-15 points, Str +2 AP Special, Two Handed, Melee, Shokk

Shokk: this weapon is AP 4 or it reduces the opponents Armor Save to 4+.
Example: When attacking a Black Templar Crusader Squad, your Shokk Hammer Nob scores 3 wounds. The first is against a Neophyte, whose Carapace armor is ignored, and so he is removed as a casualty. The other two are against an Initiate in Power Armor, so his Armor Save is reduced to a 4+ and he saves as per normal.

Ranged Weapons

Pulsa Weapons

Pulsa Blasta 24" S 8 AP 2, Assault 1, Lance
Pulsa Kannon 36" S 8 AP 2, Heavy 1, Lance

Tankbustas may swap their Rokkit Launchas for Pulsa Blastas for 10 ppm

Mek Guns may upgrade their Kannons to Pulsa Kannons for 23 ppm


Painboss
May Substitute his 'Urty Syringe for a Sergikal Saw for 5 points

Sergikal Saw: S: User AP 3 Melee

Big Mek
May Substitute his Slugga for a Telly Porta Pack for 30 points

A Big Mek with Mega Nob Armor may take one of the following, Add Tellyporta Pak 30 points

Tellyporta Pak- Grants the model and any attached unit the Deep Strike Rule.

Flash Gitz
Mega Flash Armor: Model gains a 2+ Armor save a 5+ Invulnerable save and the Slow and Purposeful and Bulky special rules for 20/ppm

Deff Dredds and Killa Kans
Mega Rocket: 15/ppm

Mega Rockets:The unit gains the Jump unit type as described in Warhammer 40k: The Rules. A unit made up of exclusively of units equipped with Mega Rockets can choose to use them to run 2d6" in the shooting phase instead of the normal 1d6", even if the unit used them in the Movement Phase. If it does so, every model in the unit must make a Dangerous Terrain test. Furthermore, if a unit equipped with Mega Rockets uses its Mega Rockets to charge causes d3 Hammer of Wrath hits instead of 1. If the unit already caused D3 Hammer of Wrath hits, such as a Deff Dredd in the Dread Mob Formation, it causes D3+2 Hammer of Wrath hits instead.



Grimmor Skragga 225 pts
WS 5 BS 2 S 6 T 5 W 4 I 5 A 5 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Wargear:
Shoota/Rokkit Kombi Weapon
‘eavy armor
Grot Wingman
Stikkbombz
Gulsnik Blade

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Mob Rule
'Ere We Go
Waaaagh!
Grot Waaaaagh!
Da Cybork
Footsloggin’


Da Cybork: Grimmor has had a fair amount of his body replaced with metal, as he has a tendency to be where Artillery is landing, this grants him a 4+ Invulnerable save and It Will Not Die

Grot Waaaaagh!: All Grots in an army with Grimmor gain Zealot when they have more than 15 models in a unit and replace their Grot Blasta’s with Autoguns with the following profile:
Autogun range:12” Strength:3 AP:- Assault 2

Grot Wingman: Grimmor’s Grot Wingman Mag grants him an extra attack (the extra attack is already included in his profile) and makes all of Grimmors shooting attacks Twin-Linked

Gulsnik Blade: Gulsnik Blade: Gullsnik Blade Strength: +1 AP:4 Red Weapon, Dead Killy.
Red Weapon:This weapon gives its wielder +1 Initiative.
Dead Killy: This weapon reduces an armor value that is better than 4+ to 4+. Note that is does not then allow Grimmor to ignore it
Note that the stat bonuses are already included in Grimmor's profile

Footsloggin: Grimmor detests riding in a vehicle, says its Un-Orky. Grimmor cannot ride in a transport unless a mission specifies otherwise.



Goron the Iron Ork 190 pts
WS 5 BS 2 S 5 T 5 W 4 I 4 A 4 Ld 9 Sv +3

Wargear
Hell-Beast
Shoota
Wrath of Mork
Iron Hide

Special Rules
Furious Charge
Mob Rule
Waaaagh!
'Ere We Go
Scout
Move Through Cover
Da Black Rider
Lord of the Wastes

Hell-Beast: The Hell-Beast changes Gorons type to Cavalry and adds +1 Wound (this is already in his profile)

Wrath of Mork: Wrath of Mork is a Power Sword.

Iron Hide: Goron is more metal than Ork, his Save is Invulnerable

Da Black Rider: Wild Riders are treated as a troops choice.

Lord of the Wastes: Goron and his unit may assault the same turn they come in from Outflank.



Captain Snazzdak 150 pts

WS 5 BS 3 S 4 T 5 W 3 I 4 A 3 Ld 9 Sv 2+

Wargear
Da Blitzbanga
MegaFlash Armor
Stikkbombz
Da True Gitfinda

Special Rules
Independent Character
Furious Charge
'Ere We Go
Me Rum!!!


Da Blitzbanga is a Snazzgun with the following profile: Range 24" Str 6 AP 1d6-1 Assault 3

MegaFlash Armor: MegaFlash armor is a lot like MegaNob armor, except it doesnt have a Power Klaw built into it. A unit in MegaFlash armor gains a 2+ Armor save, a 5+ Invuln Save, and the Bulky and Slow and Purposeful rules.

Me Rum!!!: Snazzdak is convinced someone stole his Rum. At the beginning of the game, select one of you opponents units, Snazzdak and his unit gain Preferred Enemy when attacking that unit, also if they destroy that unit Snazzdak's controlling player gets 1 VP.


Bad Dok Gorkul 180 pts (Unique)
WS 5 BS 2 S 4 T 4 W 3 I 3 A 4 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Wargear
Dok’s Tools
Urty Syringe
Two Skorchas (counts as Twinlinked)
‘ard boy armor

Special Rules
Independent Character
Furious Charge
Mob Rule
Ere We go
Waaaagh!
Fightin Juice
Da Big Bad Dok
Get back in Dere!!

Da Big Bad Dok: Any unit in an army with Gorkul may purchase cybork body at +5 points/model.

Fightin Juice: All units in the army with Furious Charge gain +1 Initiative on the turn they charge,

Get back in Dere!!: Instead of firing his weapon in the shooting phase Gorkul may choose to have his unit test Toughness, if they succeed the unit gains back D3 wounds which will add that many wounds to the unit which will return that many models, to bring back a new model all wounds must be restored on the previous one, so no bringing back 3 nobs with a single wound each. If the test is failed however, the unit suffers D3 wounds with no saves allowed and the Feel No Pain generated by Gorkull may not be used until that players next turn. This ability does not work on Independent Characters.

Big Mek Ironteef 170pts (Unique)
WS 4 BS 2 S 4 T 5 W 3 I 3 A 3 Ld 9 Sv 4+

Wargear
Mek’s Tools
Burna Squig
Zzzappa Stick
‘eavy armor
Cybork body

Special Rules
Independant Character
Furious Charge
Waaagh!
Mob Rule
Bomma Grots

Burna Squig: The Burna Squig functions as a Burna


Zzzappa Stick: The Zzzappa Stick functions as a Kustom Force Field. Big Mek Ironteef may forfeit the cover save generated by the Zzzappa Stick to instead make a shooting attack with it with a range of 24”, the Force Field reactivates at the beginning of the players next turn. When Ironteef makes an attack with the Zzzappa the player rolls 2d6 and consults the chart.

Double 1’s The shot fails and the Zzzappa Stick doesn’t function next turn.

3-6 Str D3+1 Ap- Assault 1

7-9 Str 2D3 Ap D3+3 Assault 2

10-11 Str 2D6 Ap D3+2 Assault 1 Small Blast

Double 6’s Str 2D6 Ap D6 Assault 3 Small Blast

If a result higher than 10 is rolled on the Strength another shot is fired

Bomma Grots: Grots replace It's a Grots Life with Mob Rule, and Grot Attack Mobs may buy stikkbombz for +3 points per model, also for each 10 grots over 10, they may have another grot throw a grenade in the shooting phase, if double ones are rolled on the scatter, the template is placed over the grot that threw it and the attack is resolved normally. EX a squad of 20 grots may have two grots throw a grenade in the shooting phase, but if the squad drops below 20 they may only throw one



Wildriders are to the Snakebites what Warbikers are to everyone else, they are scouts and vanguard units. Mounted atop the most hostile creatures the Snakebites can wranlge, known universally as Hell-Beasts Wildriders charge in to the enemy lines firing their Shootas and holding on for dear life. Often times the rider is shot off the beast, this doesnt stop the foul tempered creature from ripping apart whoever it was charging.

Wildriders (Cavalry) 75 points

5 Wildriders

Wildriders WS 4 BS 2 S3 T4 W2 I2 A2 L7 Sv 4+
Wildrider Boss Nob WS 4 BS 2 S4 T4 W3 I3 A3 L7 Sv 4+

Special Rules
Furious Charge
'ere We Go
Mob Rule
Scout
Move Through Cover

Wargear
'eavy Armor
Slugga
Choppa
Stikkbombs
Hell-Beast (+1 Wound)

Options:
May include up to 10 additional Wildriders at 15 points/model
All models in the Unit may have Thuddbombs for +1 point/model
All models in the Unit may exchange their Sluggas and Choppas for a Shoota for free
One Wildrider may be upgraded to a Boss Nob for 10 points
The Boss Nob may take items from the Melee Weapons list
The Boss Nob may take a Bosspole for 5 points.

Thuddbombs: See Krak Grenades in the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook.


Nob Wildriders (cavalry) 75 points

3 Nob Wildriders

Wildrider Nob WS 4 BS 2 S4 T4 W3 I3 A3 L7 Sv 4+

Special Rules
Furious Charge
'ere We Go
Mob Rule
Move Through Cover

Wargear
'eavy Armor
Slugga
Choppa
Stikkbombs
Hell-Beast (+1 Wound)

Options:
May include up to 7 additional Nob Wildriders at 25 points/model
All models in the Unit may take 'unting Lances for 15 points per model
All models in the Unit may exchange their Sluggas and Choppas for a Shoota for free
One model may be upgraded to a Wildrider Painboy for an extra 15 points

'unting Lance S User AP 4 Melee, Smash'em
Smash'em: Units equipped with weapons with this special rule cause D3 Hammer of Wrath attacks at S 5 AP -


Grotissar (replaces Runtherds)

WS 2 BS 3 S 2 T 3 W 1 I 2 A 2 LD 7 Sv -
Wargear:
Slugg-chucka
Fancy Hat

Rules:
I'm Scarier Den Dem!!

Slug-Chucka Ranged 18" S 3 AP- Assault 2
Fancy Hat: This item does nothing, other than making the Grotissar stick out.

I'm Scarier Den Dem!!: When a Gretchin squad containing a Grotissar fails a Morale check, the unit takes a wound with no saves of any kind allowed. They are then treated as having past the test.

Heavy Support

Squiggoth (Monstrous Creature)-100 points
WS 3 BS 2 S 6 T 6 W 4 I 1 A 3 Ld 7 Sv 5+

1 Squiggoth

Special Rules
Pack Beast
Feel No Pain (5+)

Wargear
Howdah Mounted Kannon

Options
May include up to 2 more Squiggoths for 100 points each
May swap the Kannon for a Lobba-Free
May Swap the Kannon for a Zzzap gun- 5 points

Pack Beast: A Squiggoth is Fearless as long as a unit with the Orks Faction is within 3"

Transport Capacity: A Squiggoth can transport up to 10 models. It is treated as an Open Topped vehicle for transport purposes.


Big Squiggoth (Monstrous Creature) 175
WS 3 BS 2 S 8 T 7 W 6 I 1 A 3 Ld 7 Sv 4+

1 Big Squiggoth

Special Rules
Pack Beast
Feel No Pain 5+
Mad Beast

Wargear
Howdah Mounted Kannon
2 Twin Linked Big Shootas
Tusks

Pack Beast: A Big Squiggoth is Fearless as long as a unit with the Orks Faction is within 3"
Mad Beast: A Big Squiggoth generates D3 Hammer of Wrath hits. Furthermore upon losing its first wound it gains Rampage
Tusks: A unit equipped with Tusks gains +2 attacks when charging instead of 1

Options:
May swap the Kannon for a Lobba-Free
May Swap the Kannon for a Zzzap gun- 5 points
May Swap either of the Twin Linked Big Shootas for Twin Linked Rokkit Launchas-Free
Snakebite Combat Drugs 15 points

Transport Capacity: A Big Squiggoth can transport up to 20 models. It is treated as an Open Topped vehicle for transport purposes.

Lords of War

Gargantuan Squiggoth (Gargantuan Creature)-400 points
WS 3 BS 2 S 10 T 8 W 8 I 1 A 5 Ld 7 Sv 4+

Special Rules
Fearless
War Beast
Walking Effigy

Wargear
2 Howdah Mounted Kill-Kannons
4 Pintle Mounted Twin-Linked Shootas (must be fired by transported models)
Huge Tusks

War Beast: A Gargantuan Squiggoth causes D3+2 Hammer of Wrath hits. Furthermore upon losing its first wound it gains Rampage
Walking Effigy: Units with the Ork Faction within 6" of a Gargantuan Squiggoth are Fearless
Huge Tusks: A unit equipped with Tusks gains +2 attacks when charging instead of 1 and their Hammer of Wrath attacks gain Shred.

Options
May swap out either of the Kill-Kannons for Supa Gattlers- 15 points
May Swap out either of the Kill-Kannons for Deff Cannons- 30 Points
May Swap out any of the Pintle Mounted Twin-Linked Big Shootas for Pintle Mounted Twin Linked Rokkit Launchas-free
May Take Grot Gunners for 20 points
May take Snakebite Combat Drugs for 15 points

Transport Capacity: A Gargantuan Squiggoth can transport up to 30 models. It is treated as an Open Topped vehicle for transport purposes.

Grot Gunners: Increase the units BS to 3, furthermore the unit may fire its Pintle Mounted Weapons without passengers.
Snakebite Combat Drugs: A unit with this upgrade must roll on the following chart after deployment but before the first turn begins.

D6 Result
1 A Potent mixture of Stimulants ravages the Squiggoth, but only serves to enrage it. The Squiggoth begins the game having already lost a wound. This result can only be applied once per Squiggoth
2 The Squiggoth gains Fleet
3 The Squiggoth may re roll its dice to determine is random number of attacks from Rampage and for its Hammer of Wrath.
4 Gains Preferred Enemy (Infantry)
5 The Squiggoth increases its FnP roll to a 4+
6 Roll Twice on the chart applying both results and rerolling duplicate results and further results of 6

Voidhawk
2016-05-03, 01:10 AM
I know very little about Orks, but that seems quite interesting. However: as written the rules for Doks (1 per non-Dok HQ choice) and Mad-Boyz (1 per non-Mad-Boy HQ choice) overlap. You can bring infinite Doks and Mad-Boyz, each one justifying another.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-03, 05:49 AM
I know very little about Orks, but that seems quite interesting. However: as written the rules for Doks (1 per non-Dok HQ choice) and Mad-Boyz (1 per non-Mad-Boy HQ choice) overlap. You can bring infinite Doks and Mad-Boyz, each one justifying another.

Well i copied it from the Meks rule so those would have to be reworded.

LeSwordfish
2016-05-04, 12:31 PM
Inquisition seems difficult, and I'm bored. Let's do a Codex: Arbites.

Design Principles:

Arbites are buff/debuff units. Individually expensive, and not especially killy: they're best used in concert with something else. They don't have access to most tools for killing vehicles, so the idea is you take 500 points of arbites or so and use them well to complement another list.
Arbites are pretty tough.
Arbite special abilities are debuffs, not special killpower.


So firstly, some troop units.



WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


4
4
3
3
1
3
1
8
4+



Unit Composition: 5 Arbites for 50 points

Wargear:
Carapace Armor
Shotgun
Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules:
Suppression Doctrines

Options:
May include up to ten additional Arbites: +10 points each.
One arbite may take a Medi-Kit: +15 points.
May take a rhino as a dedicated transport.
For every five models in the unit, one model may replace their shotgun with:
Water Cannon ........ 10pts
Webber ................. 5pts
Phosphor Carbine .... 5pts

Water Cannon: Str 1 Ap -, Assault 1, Template, Strikedown, Water Wall
Webber: Str 1 AP -, Assault 2, "12, Snare
Phosphor Carbine: Str 4 AP 3, Rapid Fire, 24", Phosphor





WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


4
4
3
3
1
3
1
8
4+



Unit Composition: 5 Arbites for 50 points

Wargear:
Carapace Armor
Shock Maul
Lockshield

Special Rules:
Repression Doctrines

Options:
May include up to ten additional Arbites: +10 points each.
One arbite may take a Medi-Kit: +15 points.
May take a rhino as a dedicated transport.

Lockshield: A lockshield provides a 5+ invulnerable save. This save is improved by one for each friendly model with a lockshield in base contact with the bearer, to a maximum of 3+. A model with a Lockshield may never gain the second attack for carrying two close combat weapons.
Shock Maul: A Shock Maul is a close combat weapon with the Shock special rule.



Special Rules:
Water Wall: When firing Overwatch with a weapon with this special rule, the target unit is treated as charging through difficult terrain.
Snare: Any model hit by a weapon with this special rule must immediately take a strength test. If failed, the model is reduced to initiative 1 and may not make any voluntary movements or shooting attacks. This effect lasts until the model is killed, or when they succeed on a strength test to break free, which they may attempt at the start of each movement phase.
Shock: A model hit with a weapon with the shock special rule must make a Toughness test immediately upon being hit. If failed, this model is reduced to WS1, BS1, and Initiative 1 until the end of its next Combat phase.
Phosphor: A unit hit by a weapon with this special rule takes -1 to all cover saves until the end of the shooting phase.

Suppression Doctrines
Supression Doctrines are used by the arbites to enhance their ranged abilities. At the start of the shooting phase, each unit with this special rule may attempt to use one of these doctrines. Make a leadership test: If failed, the unit acts as normal. If passed, they may choose one of the following special rules to gain until the start of their next turn.

Suppressing Fire: The unit's shooting attacks gain the Pinning special rule. If they already have the Pinning special rule, the enemy must re-roll all successful Pinning tests.
Prepare For Assault: The unit fires Overwatch at full Ballistic Skill.
Hold Firm: The unit gains +1 to it's Cover saves.
Drive them Out: The unit's weapons gain the Ignores Cover special rule.


Repression Doctrines
Repression Doctrines are used by the arbites to enhance their close combat abilities. At the start of the assault phase, each unit with this special rule may attempt to use one of these doctrines. Make a leadership test: If failed, the unit acts as normal. If passed, they may choose one of the following special rules to gain until the start of their next turn.

Breach and Clear: The unit ignores all penalties for assaulting through cover.
Baton Drum: The unit gains the Fear and Counter-attack special rules.
No Retreat: The unit automatically passes any Morale checks caused in close combat.
Push Them Back: If the unit wins the close combat, count it as having scored +d3 additional wounds.



These two squads are the mainstay of an Arbites force, with special rules giving them a diverse selection of abilities. None are too powerful I think - Ignores Cover isn't great on an AP- attack. Auto-passes morale checks is designed to make them a decent tarpit. The defensive abilities are a little stronger, since the opponent can react to them.

They can reduce cover, Strikedown, and trap opponents, as well as giving the ability to pin. One thing I want particular advice on is the Webber, and the Snare special rule... it seems too powerful but I can't work out what else to do with it.

Up next: Arbites special units: Snipers and Cyber-Mastiffs.

Jormengand
2016-05-04, 12:39 PM
I find it odd that the police have better WS/BS/Ld/Sv than the army, personally.

JNAProductions
2016-05-04, 12:41 PM
The police are trained and hand-picked for this stuff.

The army is drafted willy-nilly.

Makes sense to me.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-04, 02:43 PM
They look good, but i personally think they are overcosted by 2 points each. I mean my Skitarii Vanguard are 2 points cheaper than the Tactical Response unit and they have FnP (6+) and Relentless while the Arbites get +1 WS on them. Other than that they look solid.

Tome
2016-05-04, 04:26 PM
The police are trained and hand-picked for this stuff.

The army is drafted willy-nilly.

Makes sense to me.

Cadians. Fire Warriors. Trained from birth. Both still BS3.

Even regular guardsmen get a pretty exhaustive boot camp.

BS4, as common as it may be, is not for just merely being 'good' or well trained.

LeSwordfish
2016-05-04, 05:03 PM
Remember that the arbites aren't the local cops - that's the magistratum. Most planets will have one Arbitrator, or maybe one per major city. They're the big deals, the Judge Dredds, the guys who come in to kick ass when the local police are stumped. Only a few places - hive cities - have entire precincts.

"Arbites" is sometimes used as a generic term, but if so it's used inaccurately.

(Source: The early Ciaphas Cain books, what I remember from Dark Heresy.)



They look good, but i personally think they are overcosted by 2 points each. I mean my Skitarii Vanguard are 2 points cheaper than the Tactical Response unit and they have FnP (6+) and Relentless while the Arbites get +1 WS on them. Other than that they look solid.

Hmmm... Suppression Doctrines are pretty neat... I'm not sure if it's two points worth of neat. Maybe drop them to ten points each? Maybe a point loss for the Repression Unit too? Or is a near-permanent 3++ and concussive on everything too good?

I'd love to have some way to get them FnP. Perhaps have that as a doctrine? Or give them a "medpack" option.

What do people think of the special weapons and special rules? My plan is that everything in the army will have either Suppression or Repression Doctrines, so it's important that they're right.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-04, 06:41 PM
Hmmm... Suppression Doctrines are pretty neat... I'm not sure if it's two points worth of neat. Maybe drop them to ten points each? Maybe a point loss for the Repression Unit too? Or is a near-permanent 3++ and concussive on everything too good?

I'd love to have some way to get them FnP. Perhaps have that as a doctrine? Or give them a "medpack" option.

Dont forget that Skitarii have their Doctrina Imperitives, which are much the same as the Suppression Doctrines. So i think 9 points is fine, especially since they are just armed with Shotguns.

Id say 10 points for the Repression unit. Yes they can have a 3++ but they also will be super clumped together and suddenly Plasma Cannons look really nice..... On top of this they have no ranged weapons.

Tvtyrant
2016-05-04, 09:09 PM
I'm working on a fan Grot codex (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JTCDo9RXWJ1GXs61EMH8e54v5aKJd0Q2QboV9Wl9ARs/edit?usp=sharing)right now, wanted to run some of the stuff by everyone for balance reasons.

I am slowly upgrading everything to actual troop datasheets, a lot is just in the form of general descriptions at this point.

General concept is that the grots are looting Orks as best they can, but are not big enough to use their weapons normally. All of their stuff is dirt cheap, and is a mix of infantry, tanks and biplanes.

Jormengand
2016-05-05, 09:53 AM
Part of me also wants to write up Spyrers just because I love them, but because AFAIK they only exist on one world (Lexicanum says "Necromunda (and possibly other planets)"), it could be difficult to justify them. Redemptionist Crusade is another one I kinda like the idea of making bigger.

EDIT: I went ahead and made them (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jk3RWIxWRy08icxw3oUP8eIJVf21hNamWGHXlM3camw/edit?usp=sharing). No idea how to price them. The problem is, scary as Spyrers are, they have the problem that they work individually, but apart from Matriarchs, Patriarchs and super-beefed-up Orrus Spyrers, they can't actually fight squads alone.

Tvtyrant
2016-05-05, 02:03 PM
Part of me also wants to write up Spyrers just because I love them, but because AFAIK they only exist on one world (Lexicanum says "Necromunda (and possibly other planets)"), it could be difficult to justify them. Redemptionist Crusade is another one I kinda like the idea of making bigger.

EDIT: I went ahead and made them (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jk3RWIxWRy08icxw3oUP8eIJVf21hNamWGHXlM3camw/edit?usp=sharing). No idea how to price them. The problem is, scary as Spyrers are, they have the problem that they work individually, but apart from Matriarchs, Patriarchs and super-beefed-up Orrus Spyrers, they can't actually fight squads alone.

They seem cool, and are much better than SMs in fluff. My suggestion is you copy the assassin model of having each one be a detachment but around 25 to 40 pts each, they are meant as allies but spamming 60 might work as a movie marines list.

As they are lone operatives you might give them all full BS on overwatch, scout and infiltrate so they can act like Judge Dred clones.

On Grots: I patterned them off of GorkaMorkas fluff, I can rename things if needed though.

Jormengand
2016-05-05, 02:27 PM
The thing is, Spyrers aren't anyone's allies. They're probably DA with the Imperium (EDIT: AoC with Tau) and CtA with anyone else. Having a detachment of one individual Spyrer (who is probably only worth about 20 points, except the Matriarch/Patriarch who are about 100) seems odd; having them be anyone's allies seems weirder still. I was partly tempted to give everyone the maximum statline straight up, or at least a second wound (Maybe give the HQs a 4th, even).

I'm gonna try to assign points values to them, too, but they're working values.

EDIT: Actually they're probably allied with the Tau, who seem to have made all their hunting rig. Which I guess is neat.

Tvtyrant
2016-05-05, 03:28 PM
The thing is, Spyrers aren't anyone's allies. They're probably DA with the Imperium and CtA with anyone else. Having a detachment of one individual Spyrer (who is probably only worth about 20 points, except the Matriarch/Patriarch who are about 100) seems odd; having them be anyone's allies seems weirder still. I was partly tempted to give everyone the maximum statline straight up, or at least a second wound (Maybe give the HQs a 4th, even).

I'm gonna try to assign points values to them, too, but they're working values.

Okay, what about make them have a different feel/rules than other armies? Give them kill team rules in a none kill team game: every one of them acts like their own unit, has precision on all of their weapons and you get a VP everytime one kills a charcter.

So they are fragile, few in models and expensive but they give you a ton of extra victory points to make up for it.

LeSwordfish
2016-05-07, 04:52 PM
Changes made to the last post: Reduced both squads to 10 points per model. Gave both squads the option for a medikit for 15 points. Gave both squads the option for a rhino.

Arbites Ranged Supression Force
(Same profile as before)

3 Suppression Arbites - 45

May take up to 3 extra - 15pts each.

Wargear
Sniper Rifles with Ricochet rounds
Carapace Armor

All models in squad may take Camo-Cloaks - 2pts per model.
Any model may take Dazzle Rounds. - 1pt per model.
Any model may take Penetrator Rounds - 2pts per model.

Ricochet Rounds: A squad hit by a weapon using Ricochet Rounds tests pinning as if it had taken a wound from this weapon whether or not they take a wound. A weapon may only fire one kind of round each time it fires.
Dazzle Rounds: This weapon has the Blind special rule. A weapon may only fire one kind of round each time it fires.
Penetrator Rounds: The weapon gets +1 to wound and AP3. A weapon may only fire one kind of round each time it fires.

Special Rules
Suppression Protocols
Infiltrate

Cyber-Mastiffs and Handler



WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Handler
4
4
3
3
2
3
2
8
4+


Mastiff
4
4
4
4
2
4
1
7
4+



50

Unit Type: Infantry (Handler), Beast (Mastiffs)
Unit Composition: 1 Handler, 3 Mastiffs

May contain up to 7 additional Mastiffs: 10pts per model
May take a rhino as a dedicated transport.

Wargear: Handler
Shotgun
Shock Maul
Laspistol
Carapace Armor

The Handler may take wargear from the Arbites Wargear list (TBD).

Wargear: Mastiffs
Cyber-form
Mastiff Jaws

Cyber-Form: The mastiffs gain a 4+ armor save. Their Hammer Of Wrath attacks have the Concussive special rule.
Mastiff Jaws: Str User, AP 4, Range Melee, Shred

Special Rules:
Repression Protocols
Hunt them down!
Feel No Pain (Mastiffs Only)

Hunt Them Down: When making Charge rolls for the unit, the controlling player may choose to treat the Handler and any independent characters as Beasts for the charge roll. This means the whole unit may re-roll charge distances and use the Move Through Cover special rule (though they may not make Hammer Of Wrath attacks). If this option is taken, the handler and any ICs may not attack in the first round of close combat - they're too busy catching up to their attack dogs! In addition, the unit may re-roll Sweeping Advance rolls.

Nothing too strange or controversial here, I think: Repression squads are great at pinning enemies from a distance, and can be upgraded to be half-decent snipers - remember all sniper rifles have the Precision Shot special rule. Mastiffs are a close-combat squad - again, not an incredibly killy one in and of themselves, but good for taking down weakened enemies or forcing slow units to run. No idea what's right with the point values, though.

Next time: HQ choice, plus Warlord Traits and the Wargear list.

JNAProductions
2016-05-07, 04:57 PM
17 PPM for 3+ AP 3 Sniper Rifles... That's pretty dang good.

Jormengand
2016-05-07, 05:00 PM
After some testing (in which my Spyrers got absolutely slaughtered by Marines) I've just gone and given everyone +1 to all stats for funsies.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-07, 08:09 PM
17 PPM for 3+ AP 3 Sniper Rifles... That's pretty dang good.

That they are, but nothing completely nuts, they are still Heavy 1. Nice and competent.

JNAProductions
2016-05-07, 08:11 PM
That they are, but nothing completely nuts, they are still Heavy 1. Nice and competent.

That's 6 PPM over BA Scouts, and you get +1 WS/BS, +1 Wound rolls, and AP 3 as opposed to AP 6. (You do have -1 S/T, though.)

I'd make them cost 3 or 4 PPM for Penetrating Ammo.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-08, 12:00 AM
That's 6 PPM over BA Scouts, and you get +1 WS/BS, +1 Wound rolls, and AP 3 as opposed to AP 6. (You do have -1 S/T, though.)

I'd make them cost 3 or 4 PPM for Penetrating Ammo.

Dont compare them to BA Scouts, those should be WS and BS 4 and we all know it. So being 6 PPM over a normal scout seems ok as they will be absolutely butchered by Template weapons.

LeSwordfish
2016-05-08, 09:50 AM
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the penetrator rounds. I don't want this squad to be very killy, and they'd murder Monstrous Creatures. Instead, giving them Phosphor rounds, perhaps?

How are the Mastiffs? I'm a little worried about the Hunt Them Down rule: the idea was that it allow the unit to move at Mastiff speed without losing the handler, but I feel like there's some exploit or other I haven't thought of.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-08, 10:03 AM
The more I think about it, the more I dislike the penetrator rounds. I don't want this squad to be very killy, and they'd murder Monstrous Creatures. Instead, giving them Phosphor rounds, perhaps?

How are the Mastiffs? I'm a little worried about the Hunt Them Down rule: the idea was that it allow the unit to move at Mastiff speed without losing the handler, but I feel like there's some exploit or other I haven't thought of.

Phosphor rounds are good.

I dont see one. I mean re-rolling Sweeping Advances is great, but that squad can only take on certain types of targets, so its not like it'll be butchers TEQs or anything.

Grim Portent
2016-05-16, 02:39 PM
I was mucking about with some parts and thought I'd write up some simple stats for a Renegades and Heretics equivalent to Krieg Death Riders.


Renegade Rider Platoon (Fast Attack)

Renegade rough riders, the corrupted remnant of once loyal regiments or ragged levies of primitive warriors dragged from worlds in the Eye of Terror, serve as far ranging marauders during chaos excursions. Some wield crude hatchets and ride into battle in tattered rags, others wield finely honed cavalry sabers and are clad in carapace armour plates. Regardless of their appearance these bloodthirsty murderers are often chem addled and psychopathic, their bodies hooked up to crude auto-injectors and chem-synthesizers. Inured to pain, prone to violent rages and driven to destroy the enemies of chaos, these warriors charge recklessly through volleys of gunfire towards their foes, a lance of unreasoning hate thrust into the heart of the foe.

2-5 Renegade Rider units

Renegade Rider units - 75 points




WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld
Sv


Rider Champion
3
2
3
3
2
3
3
*
-


Renegade Rider
3
2
3
3
2
3
2
*
-



Unit Composition

1 Champion
4 Renegade Riders

Unit Type

Champion: Cavalry (Character)
Renegade Rider: Cavalry

Wargear

Autopistol or Laspistol
Close combat weapon
Frag grenades

Special Rules

Uncertain Worth


Options

May take up to 15 additional Renegade Riders......... 10 points each

The Champion may take any of the following:

Melta Bombs …..... 5 points
Chaos Covenant ... 10 points

The Champion may replace their autopistol or laspistol and/or their close combat weapon with one of the following:

Power weapon ….. 10 points
Bolt pistol …........ 1 point
Plasma pistol ….... 15 points

The unit may purchase any of the following:

Flak armour …............................... 10 points
Carapace armour ......................... 25 points
Rage …....................................... 20 points
Feel No Pain (6+) .. ......................15 points
Militia Training (+1WS/+1BS) …..... 10 points

For every 5 models in the unit one model may purchase one of the following:

Power weapon …........ 15 points

And an option for Arch-Demagogues to make Renegade Riders troops.

Cavalry Commander: 25 points

An Arch-Demagogue with this devotion changes their type to Cavalry (Character). They gain +1 Wound and attack. Their command squad is replaced with a Renegade Rider unit. This unit may take the Banner of Hate, the Banner of the Apostate and the Command Vox Net for the same points cost as listed for Command Squads and with the same restrictions. The Arch-Demagogue may take any options they were permitted in their normal Command Squad. This unit also has access to all Renegade Rider options.

Renegade Riders taken in an army with a Demagogue possessing this devotion may be taken as Troops instead of Fast Attack units.

The basic idea here is that where loyalist Rough Riders wield explosive tipped lances and serve as something of an elite shock trooper, the Renegade Rider is mostly just a fast moving rabble, cultists with a mount between their legs, though they can become more akin to mounted Stormtroopers, elite combatants charging into battle like a hammer to the foe.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-16, 08:28 PM
The armor upgrades feel expensive, other than that they look solid.

Grim Portent
2016-05-17, 02:47 AM
The armor upgrades feel expensive, other than that they look solid.

I based those on the costs for Renegade Infantry Squads and Renegade Veterans to take Flak and Carapace armour. Like all the armour upgrades in R&Hs it applies to the whole unit, so a full squad is paying 1.25 points per model for carapace, but trades that off by being a giant blob of cavalry.

Edit: I did bump the cost of carapace up to 25 for the riders compared to 20 for veterans though, so maybe I should drop it to 20.

Blackhawk748
2016-05-17, 06:11 PM
Ah its the entire unit, my bad, for some reason i read that as "per model" that seems much better.

Ya id drop it to 20 points, they dont get the fancy weapons the Vets get, they just get to move faster.

JNAProductions
2016-05-28, 07:01 PM
Making my own CSM rewrite, based largely on the Space Marines codex. Link here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RTHd_F8jKo1qUhJ_Wg8MmbOzW6Dw0aJ5_R8UiOuFQKE/edit?usp=sharing).