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kardillamo
2016-04-22, 01:18 AM
Alright, so I've been writing my world for a while and I'm just reaching a point where I'm wanting to get players involved and start thinking with them in mind. So, I looked at the races of my world and saw that no current implementation really fit what I wanted from them, so I needed to write them up myself.

Having next to no experience, I turn to you for help. I've written up a players handbook of sorts using the homebrewery that takes markup language input, and I was hoping you could help a guy out. Fair warning, I fully expect things to be broken and imbalanced, and I desperately need a separate set of eyes to make things right.

Most recent version of my handbook can be found [here] (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6lpTIy4vJ-xMVBPRng5VDF3cU0) Now v0.991 as of 26/4/16 @00:11 (Pardon the large/odd spaces, I'm adding pictures soon. really.)

Thanks for taking a gander!

ChangeLog:
V0.991 26/4/16 @ 00:11
-fixed some atrocious formatting errors
-very small rebalance
-resolved to really start working on those photos.

V0.99 25/4/16 @01:42
-lotsa typos mended and fixed
-First Point Buy rebalance!
-did i mention typos? i did lots of those
-quick redo of wood elves, probs broke them again
-my god why am i awake.
-Shout Out to Rogem and Final Hyena, Y'all are the best.

v0.98 24/4/16 @17:30
-Anifeliad and Forged now have a point buy system
-Point buy page made, kudos to Final Hyena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?132615-Final-Hyena) for letting me use some of their ideas for point buy character builiding (found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485976-Racial-Traits-Point-Buy)). WARNING. MAY STILL BE WILDLY UNBALANCED.
- Elementally aligned races now can cast all spells, simply changing elemental damage and effect types to their respective affiliations.
- Page numbers added!
- Minor formatting changes
- More of my life wasted
- Orc subset: Koksa rebalanced.
- Oh my god why am I still writing this changelog.

Final Hyena
2016-04-22, 08:08 AM
This is hard to comment on as the races tend to reference things that are specific to your setting.

I might have missed it, but I can't find where the Elven part says you get to pick one of those sub types.

Forged get nothing.

kardillamo
2016-04-22, 01:26 PM
This is hard to comment on as the races tend to reference things that are specific to your setting.

I mean, yes and no, the fluff is very setting based, but the actual balance of mechanics is what I'm asking here, and that's far more cut and dry.


I might have missed it, but I can't find where the Elven part says you get to pick one of those sub types.

No, you're entirely right, I missed mentioning that players have to choose one of the subraces.


Forged get nothing.

I mean, not really, it's fairly similar to the Anifeliad, just with a couple more restrictions on top.

Did anything in particular seem broken mechanics-wise to you? Anything obviously abusable?

Final Hyena
2016-04-22, 04:51 PM
I mean, yes and no, the fluff is very setting based, but the actual balance of mechanics is what I'm asking here, and that's far more cut and dry.
My biggest concern is with elves;

Forest Tenders: The trees share deep knowledge with the Fathers, gifting them with +2 into wisdom.
Speakers of the Forest: The Fathers can speak with the earth and plants of the forest that they call home, making bargains with the nature of the woods in exchange for assistance.
Wooden Magic: The Fathers can only cast spells that use the power of the earth or the woods.
I understood 1 of those features the other 2 I can't be certain on. Being able to bargain with the forests. How useful is that? I dunno. Being limited to earth/wood spells. Ok.... I don't even know. Do you have a list for this? Do you use your own spells?


I mean, not really, it's fairly similar to the Anifeliad, just with a couple more restrictions on top.
Forged Traits;

Forged do not require food, water, or rest to survive, however once a day for 4 hours they must focus or gain a level of exhaustion.
That's not a lot of features.

As for the Anifeliad, perhaps you should go with a list of pick and choose your traits, where each one has a point cost.


Did anything in particular seem broken mechanics-wise to you? Anything obviously abusable?
I did note that none of the size sections mentioned the size category (medium/small). KoKa seem stronger than the rest, perhaps limit the damage resistance to just once at level 1.

kardillamo
2016-04-24, 01:20 PM
My biggest concern is with elves;

I understood 1 of those features the other 2 I can't be certain on. Being able to bargain with the forests. How useful is that? I dunno. Being limited to earth/wood spells. Ok.... I don't even know. Do you have a list for this? Do you use your own spells?

I hear you, I need to find a way to be more specific regarding those two traits. The speak with the nature one is hard, but the way I'm going to try and play it is that it's like adding a whole new set of NPCs that elves can talk to, get information from, and if they give something of equal value to the land or agree to do something, then the land will give back something of equal return.

Spell wise, I was figuring I could quickly refluff spells like sacred flame or ray of frost with another element, keeping it functionally the same, just limiting elemental range.



Forged Traits;
That's not a lot of features.

Your right, I'm treating them similar to the Anifeliad in that regard.



As for the Anifeliad, perhaps you should go with a list of pick and choose your traits, where each one has a point cost.

I like this alot, I want to implement this for both the Forged and the Anifeliad. Do you know of any pre-made lists that could work for that? If not I'll just have to try and put something together. Maybe choosing from feats? Hmm, I don't feel like that would give quite the range I was hoping for.



I did note that none of the size sections mentioned the size category (medium/small).

Ah, you are right, I have modified that in my current version, which is almost different enough now to post.



KoKa seem stronger than the rest, perhaps limit the damage resistance to just once at level 1.


I was thinking that because it resulted in a vulnerability as well that balanced it out a bit more. 1 seems a bit low, but I can see what you mean about 3 being a bit much. Do you think 2 would work?

Final Hyena
2016-04-24, 02:22 PM
I hear you, I need to find a way to be more specific regarding those two traits. The speak with the nature one is hard, but the way I'm going to try and play it is that it's like adding a whole new set of NPCs that elves can talk to, get information from, and if they give something of equal value to the land or agree to do something, then the land will give back something of equal return.
When it comes to NPCs it's always reasonable that some people are better suited to talking to certain NPCs, everyone likes/dislikes certain people. That feature opens up NPCs that most character can never interact with. That's ok, just make sure it's not a major feature of the campaign or other players will feel left out.


Spell wise, I was figuring I could quickly refluff spells like sacred flame or ray of frost with another element, keeping it functionally the same, just limiting elemental range.
That's in theory fine, although is quite a big task if you plan on going into higher levels. The biggest thing is to balance so that all element get good stuff.
Having another glance I just realised two things. Elves might make good casters, but cleric is the most likely class for a race that gets wisdom, but then then gets so much of their spell list removed.
The other thing is that Great wood elves get +4 wisdom, which is unusual.


Your right, I'm treating them similar to the Anifeliad in that regard.
I didn't see a section that said you get to make your traits for the forged.


I like this alot, I want to implement this for both the Forged and the Anifeliad. Do you know of any pre-made lists that could work for that? If not I'll just have to try and put something together. Maybe choosing from feats? Hmm, I don't feel like that would give quite the range I was hoping for.
Not sure how I feel about feats, it could work. I do have a list of racial traits. It's part of my backlog that I'm working through I just posted it now for you, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485976-Racial-Traits-Point-Buy)


I was thinking that because it resulted in a vulnerability as well that balanced it out a bit more. 1 seems a bit low, but I can see what you mean about 3 being a bit much. Do you think 2 would work?
Well I completely missed half of that trait. I was thinking just getting 1 resistance would be easier. I feel that it's currently slightly abusable. Generally you get immunity to piercing, slashing & bludgeoning and get weakness to acid, lightning & cold. But maybe that's ok if you're changing the spells around. Hard for me to say.

kardillamo
2016-04-24, 02:43 PM
When it comes to NPCs it's always reasonable that some people are better suited to talking to certain NPCs, everyone likes/dislikes certain people. That feature opens up NPCs that most character can never interact with. That's ok, just make sure it's not a major feature of the campaign or other players will feel left out.

For sure, that makes a lot of sense to me, thanks!



That's in theory fine, although is quite a big task if you plan on going into higher levels. The biggest thing is to balance so that all element get good stuff.
Having another glance I just realised two things. Elves might make good casters, but cleric is the most likely class for a race that gets wisdom, but then then gets so much of their spell list removed.
The other thing is that Great wood elves get +4 wisdom, which is unusual.

Ooh, yeah, that may be a bit much for the wood elves, I'll find something else to balance that out.

You definitely have a serious point. I think I'm going to retcon the previous elemental exclusionary statements except for polar elements (fire vs water) and instead say that the magic is built on a foundation of that element, so either the damage type changes, is somehow otherwise affected, or remains unchanged.




I didn't see a section that said you get to make your traits for the forged.

Not sure how I feel about feats, it could work. I do have a list of racial traits. It's part of my backlog that I'm working through I just posted it now for you, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?485976-Racial-Traits-Point-Buy)

You're right, I missed that too. Ooph, my bad, I feel like I've lost all credibility.

Thank you so much! I'll likely nick some of those and try and add some more.



Well I completely missed half of that trait. I was thinking just getting 1 resistance would be easier. I feel that it's currently slightly abusable. Generally you get immunity to piercing, slashing & bludgeoning and get weakness to acid, lightning & cold. But maybe that's ok if you're changing the spells around. Hard for me to say.

I'll phrase it so that you have to take a complimentary weakness. Resistance to bludgeoning being weak to piercing or slashing, that sort of thing, keep the internal balance more even.

Final Hyena
2016-04-24, 02:55 PM
You definitely have a serious point. I think I'm going to retcon the previous elemental exclusionary statements except for polar elements (fire vs water) and instead say that the magic is built on a foundation of that element, so either the damage type changes, is somehow otherwise affected, or remains unchanged.
Changing damage types makes things a lot easier for you in terms of balance and extra work. You'll have the odd affect that say burns unattended objects it now freezes them, but easily done on the spot.


You're right, I missed that too. Ooph, my bad, I feel like I've lost all credibility.
Credibility? I'm a Hyena! Lets also ignore that I only read half of that Orc feature.


Thank you so much! I'll likely nick some of those and try and add some more.
Please share your additions, I like my list, but it could use a bit more fleshing out.


I'll phrase it so that you have to take a complimentary weakness. Resistance to bludgeoning being weak to piercing or slashing, that sort of thing, keep the internal balance more even.
That could work, it creates more text. I suppose I'm mostly objecting to a racial trait that unlocks from leveling up (I know racial casting) I've just never been fond of the mechanic. However this is something specific for your setting so can work fine.

kardillamo
2016-04-24, 04:40 PM
WOOOOOO! Next version update has occurred! Thanks again to you Final Hyena, you've been an incredible help. Feel free to grab anything from my Point Buy Traits page for your character building post, It's there to be used!

Speaking of that page, any of those stand out as broke or improperly 'priced'? I bumped up the cost of cantrips and innate 1st level spells btw, I felt that having access to that kind of magic would be a bit... broke.

Rogem
2016-04-24, 06:13 PM
Here's my feedback on the baseline stuff.


The Anifeliad infobox title is broken.
Also, as an aesthetic thing, you might want to have the traits in the left column. On their balance more later.
Maybe the seafaring elves should have earth and sky as their "elements"?
2 Wisdom baseline and 2 from the choice of family is not strictly op, but is a bit flavorless when it's just a stat boost and nothing else.
Also, for the Twins of the Deep, I'd say have them have a baseline -1 penalty to Wisdom, and maybe +1 Intelligence? Seers are pretty hilariously broken. +2 Wis, +3 Int, -2 Cha... and 5ft truesight, really?
For Forged, maybe you should word the Arcane Construct feat like the core elves' Trance, to avoid confusion and Exhaustion removal spam.
More on them later.
Genasi. Specify spellcasting abilities. For all of the cantrips.
Humans. "All saving throws against undead" also includes life steal. Might not be a smart move since humans are generally the least attached to their lifeforce. Maybe give them an advantage to identify an undead creature instead, and/or tell whether it's lesser, equal or stronger in various categories, like HP and physical Abilities?
"constitution saving throws in the warmest climes" Typo, plus this would include all Con saving throws. In essence, you've just made humans super-weak to poison.
Orcs. +1 Con, really? Why not make it +1 Con, +1 Str, and then reduce the Koksa stat bonus to +2.
Int is knowledge, Wis is perceptive ability and Cha is your self-expression. Thus, Umot should probably be getting a +2 in Int.


On the Point-buy:


Language, Skill and Tool Proficiencies are fine as 1-points. Maybe fuse them into a single Trait, lets you pick one proficiency? Also, cap it to two or three different proficiencies, to avoid someone making a character proficient at *everything*
Hardened Skin costs too much, in my opinion - you should be allowed to get the 1d6 for 2 points total just fine. (You already give cantrips for 2 points!) I'd reconsider having the 1d8 option, there are not many cases where you'd choose it, if any.
Speak with Beasts is fine. Maybe add "Speak with Plants" to accompany it?
Brave is a-okay.
Savage Attacks... I'm a bit torn on whether it should be 1 or 2 points.



You should allow non-damage cantrips for one point, in my opinion. No one going to choose "light" for 2 points when they could have +1 in any stat... Also, I'd allow Constitution as spellcasting ability, especially seeing that this point-buy is intended for Forged and Anifeliad.
Breath Weapon is fine.
Ability Score Increase is tricky. I'd say that you should limit it to 3 or 4 takes, and max. +2 in a stat.
Natural Swimmer and Rock Climber are okay.
Naturally Stealthy; I was kind of expecting the Trait from core Wood Elves. When you're medium in size, there aren't going to be too many chances to take advantage of this. Either drop to 1 point or switch for the wood elf Trait.
Same goes for Nimble, sort of. Drop to 1 point, in my opinion.



Natural Immunity. I feel kind of like this isn't really worth 3 points... maybe toss in +1 Con to sweeten the deal?
Toughness. Should be okay here. Cheaper than 2 points of Con, more expensive than 1.
Magical Talent. I'd allow for Constitution to be used as spellcasting ability.
Natural Armor. Too expensive, simply put. If it gave +1 AC, then it'd be just fine, but there aren't people who'd be unarmored and who already don't get bonuses from being unarmored - which overrides this. Stacking feels a bit pointless here.
Sizable difference. Don't allow scaling to Large. Being Large increases your damage output pretty heavily in melee.




Omen; I feel like this should be two points. Especially when I look at Sharp Mind...
Relentless Endurance; Perfectly fine here.
Pure Talent; Definitely belongs here.
Sharp Mind. This is pretty damn badass. Essentially, it's advantage on saves for 3 different abilities... It's probably going to need a rework, because this is so broken that I can't really think of a situation where I *wouldn't* take it. Maybe make it an advantage against magical charm and sleep? If you do, you could drop it down to 3 points.
Wings are perfectly fine here.





Too Lucky is out of place here, drop down to 4 or 3 points. It doesn't make that much of a difference...
Eyes of the Blind... I'd probably drop the distance to 30 feet, and make it 2 or 3 points.


For the negatives... I'd say make Deficient able to be taken twice for 1 point, and disadvantage in one saving roll.

P.S. Might want to say somewhere that unless otherwise mentioned, you can only pick a trait once. (I was already scheming for an Assassination Rogue with 12x Savage attacks.)

Final Hyena
2016-04-24, 07:52 PM
Each ability gives you a +0.5 (as 2 is needed for a +1) on it's related attack, damage, save and skills (lets say 4 on average). so seven +0.5s or a +3.5, spread across a variety of rolls (of which you might not care for all of them).
A skill gives you +2 to +6 on a specific roll that you want.

Being able to get 12 skills is a bit crazy.

kardillamo
2016-04-25, 01:30 AM
I'm going to go through these point by point, but first, thank you so much for taking your time to go through this!


Here's my feedback on the baseline stuff.



The Anifeliad infobox title is broken.
Also, as an aesthetic thing, you might want to have the traits in the left column. On their balance more later.
Maybe the seafaring elves should have earth and sky as their "elements"?
I'll have to see what I can do, But I definitely want them to keep some element of that.
2 Wisdom baseline and 2 from the choice of family is not strictly op, but is a bit flavorless when it's just a stat boost and nothing else.
Also, for the Twins of the Deep, I'd say have them have a baseline -1 penalty to Wisdom, and maybe +1 Intelligence? Seers are pretty hilariously broken. +2 Wis, +3 Int, -2 Cha... and 5ft truesight, really?
For Forged, maybe you should word the Arcane Construct feat like the core elves' Trance, to avoid confusion and Exhaustion removal spam.
More on them later.
Genasi. Specify spellcasting abilities. For all of the cantrips.
Humans. "All saving throws against undead" also includes life steal. Might not be a smart move since humans are generally the least attached to their lifeforce. Maybe give them an advantage to identify an undead creature instead, and/or tell whether it's lesser, equal or stronger in various categories, like HP and physical Abilities?
"constitution saving throws in the warmest climes" Typo, plus this would include all Con saving throws. In essence, you've just made humans super-weak to poison.
Orcs. +1 Con, really? Why not make it +1 Con, +1 Str, and then reduce the Koksa stat bonus to +2.
Int is knowledge, Wis is perceptive ability and Cha is your self-expression. Thus, Umot should probably be getting a +2 in Int.





Thank you, so was the elves, and that's now fixed!
That got moved too!
I don't feel like that really fits the elves though, they're very much focused on the aspects of earth, and the sky feels polar opposite of that
Wow actually yeah, that is mad broke, specifically because I forgot to mention they lose truesight as well. And now that I'm thinking about it, I'm definitely going to need to balance them out, likely -1 to cha, +1 to int and wis.
I like that, I'm likely going to follow that advice.
aight
I think I'd rather not, bad as that might sound. All of those cantrips have very clear finite bounds and by doubling their strength, It's staying within those. Plus, by not specifying those bounds, it's very much focused on creativity by the players.
No, I was keeping that in mind when I wrote that. They're not less attached to their life force, it's more like a molotov cocktail of a life, and through necromancy they keep it from exploding wildly in the end, metaphorically of course. This may not have been the case with the earlier humans, but the more recent human culture is so inextricably twined with necromancy that it would make sense that they'd be able to resist that.
Not a typo, as they would be physically compromised by the heat. It's an inability of theirs to adapt, and thus it puts stress on their bodies, thus it would make sense that it would apply to poisons too.
There's a reason for that. The orcs do have a natural hardy streak, but they are not naturally strong, simply durable. Their culture is divided into mental and physical, and so all the stat bonuses come together in the end to reflect that. The specialization is more of a defining factor to their physiology than anything else, thus.
And several of our disagreements actually tie down into this bullet point. Wisdom and Charisma are so much more than that. Wisdom is will, common sense, instinct, Charisma is attractiveness, force of personality and social skills. This is what the Umot hammer into their kind.




On the Point-buy:



Language, Skill and Tool Proficiencies are fine as 1-points. Maybe fuse them into a single Trait, lets you pick one proficiency? Also, cap it to two or three different proficiencies, to avoid someone making a character proficient at *everything*
Hardened Skin costs too much, in my opinion - you should be allowed to get the 1d6 for 2 points total just fine. (You already give cantrips for 2 points!) I'd reconsider having the 1d8 option, there are not many cases where you'd choose it, if any.
Speak with Beasts is fine. Maybe add "Speak with Plants" to accompany it?
Brave is a-okay.
Savage Attacks... I'm a bit torn on whether it should be 1 or 2 points.






Ooooh, yes I like that, definitely doing that.
Hmm, I can see that. I just didn't want to see that being abused too much. Gonna bring this down to 1;1;3
Jammin, definitely doing that
WOOP
I'm leaning towards one because you can only buy it once, no stacking.






You should allow non-damage cantrips for one point, in my opinion. No one going to choose "light" for 2 points when they could have +1 in any stat... Also, I'd allow Constitution as spellcasting ability, especially seeing that this point-buy is intended for Forged and Anifeliad.
Breath Weapon is fine.
Ability Score Increase is tricky. I'd say that you should limit it to 3 or 4 takes, and max. +2 in a stat.
Natural Swimmer and Rock Climber are okay.
Naturally Stealthy; I was kind of expecting the Trait from core Wood Elves. When you're medium in size, there aren't going to be too many chances to take advantage of this. Either drop to 1 point or switch for the wood elf Trait.
Same goes for Nimble, sort of. Drop to 1 point, in my opinion.






Ah! Yes, that's the dichotomy I was failing to articulate in my head! Definitely going for that. still not sure about the constitution part, I'll have to think about it.
:D
I like it, It's definitely getting to a better sort of balance!
solid
wood elf trait is probs actually a good idea. Imma do both!
Agreed.






Natural Immunity. I feel kind of like this isn't really worth 3 points... maybe toss in +1 Con to sweeten the deal?
Toughness. Should be okay here. Cheaper than 2 points of Con, more expensive than 1.
Magical Talent. I'd allow for Constitution to be used as spellcasting ability.
Natural Armor. Too expensive, simply put. If it gave +1 AC, then it'd be just fine, but there aren't people who'd be unarmored and who already don't get bonuses from being unarmored - which overrides this. Stacking feels a bit pointless here.
Sizable difference. Don't allow scaling to Large. Being Large increases your damage output pretty heavily in melee.






I can see where you're coming from. I feel like adding the con bonus though makes it more a 4 pointer.
Got it
Still not sure if I like that, But definitely thinking about it.
I hear you, taking away the progression, but I'm thinking how it could be both used and abused, and so I'm making it +2 and max purchase of 2 times.
I want the large size, but I think I'm going to steal from the Goliaths and make them Pseudo-Large.






Omen; I feel like this should be two points. Especially when I look at Sharp Mind...
Relentless Endurance; Perfectly fine here.
Pure Talent; Definitely belongs here.
Sharp Mind. This is pretty damn badass. Essentially, it's advantage on saves for 3 different abilities... It's probably going to need a rework, because this is so broken that I can't really think of a situation where I *wouldn't* take it. Maybe make it an advantage against magical charm and sleep? If you do, you could drop it down to 3 points.
Wings are perfectly fine here.






Yeah, I know what you mean, I'm keeping sharp mind as is and making it the only five, Maybe bumping Omen a little.
Glad I got something right!
WOOOOO!
See above.
Awesome.







Too Lucky is out of place here, drop down to 4 or 3 points. It doesn't make that much of a difference...
Eyes of the Blind... I'd probably drop the distance to 30 feet, and make it 2 or 3 points.




Yeah, it's down in the 3's.
I feel like 30 is a bit short, so I'm going to keep it 40 and make it 4 points.




For the negatives... I'd say make Deficient able to be taken twice for 1 point, and disadvantage in one saving roll.

P.S. Might want to say somewhere that unless otherwise mentioned, you can only pick a trait once. (I was already scheming for an Assassination Rogue with 12x Savage attacks.)

I definitely hear you, Both of these changes have been added in.


Each ability gives you a +0.5 (as 2 is needed for a +1) on it's related attack, damage, save and skills (lets say 4 on average). so seven +0.5s or a +3.5, spread across a variety of rolls (of which you might not care for all of them).
A skill gives you +2 to +6 on a specific roll that you want.

Being able to get 12 skills is a bit crazy.
Oh me oh my. You are so right. This is broke and I believe I've corrected it.

Final Hyena
2016-04-25, 10:12 AM
Too lucky; you get (essentially) +5, two times, per day, on any roll!

This is very powerful I would generally expect no more than 5-10 rolls (from one PC) in a game day. This means you're getting at least a +1 on every roll on average, but it's better than that as you can pick when you use it, on that one roll that really matters. As it is now I would always pick it.

kardillamo
2016-04-26, 12:09 AM
Too lucky; you get (essentially) +5, two times, per day, on any roll!

This is very powerful I would generally expect no more than 5-10 rolls (from one PC) in a game day. This means you're getting at least a +1 on every roll on average, but it's better than that as you can pick when you use it, on that one roll that really matters. As it is now I would always pick it.

I hear ya, I've kept it at the same level, but made it once a day. Also just fixed some terrible formatting issues!

Rogem
2016-04-26, 09:19 AM
Glad that you found most of my suggestions worthwhile to consider.
Also, we seem to agree on what each of the abilities does, it's just that I put the explanations in snappy one-word format. I used self-expression for Charisma, since that's essentially what charismatic skills are, and self-expression also kind of includes magical abilities, such as those of the Sorcerer and the Bard.

I generally divide the three types of magic according to attributes like this:

Intelligence: The science of magic. Basically, you can conduct an experiment, mark down the results and refine from there.
Wisdom: The perception and alteration of natural flow of things. If I don't remember wrongly, the only two Wis-casters in the core rules are Cleric and Druid; Cleric perceives his surrounding divine energy, and uses that to cause an effect. Druid does the same with the natural energies.
Charisma: The art of magic. These guys are gifted with magic; they, in essence, leak magic through their actions, whether that is song, heroism or sorcerous means. They don't question their ability too deeply, they just try it out and see if they can do it.

Might be that I've understood the core material wrong, but that's how I do it.