Dual Rapier Rouge Assassin vs. Arcane Trickster

[NewDM]

I'm about to play a variant human with the two weapon fighting feat using 2 rapiers. I've boosted Dex to the max. I've also taken the stealth and thieves' tools for my expertise.

Is it better to go assassin or to go arcane trickster?

[Giant2005]

It depends on how liberal you are with Surprise.
If you can expect Surprise attacks regularly, then the Assassin is amazing, otherwise it brings virtually nothing to the table.
I prefer the AT just because it is far more reliable.

[Specter]

8 out of 10 times, the Arcane Trickster is better than the Assassin, but when that 20% arises, it's really delicious to deliver those jugular cuts. It's also a matter of using the social features of the Assassin: in most campaigns, there's just no room for them, and in that case you should just go AT.

But the real deal is flavor: an Assassin is (archetypically) a focused, cold-blooded sumbitch, while an arcane trickster is a happy-go-lucky magical schemer. Where does your character land, if on any?

[Finieous]

I hate to give a (c) answer, but you sound like a swashbuckler.

Also, awesome Michael Komarck art for inspiration.

http://www.komarckart.com/mtg_03.jpg

[NewDM]

8 out of 10 times, the Arcane Trickster is better than the Assassin, but when that 20% arises, it's really delicious to deliver those jugular cuts. It's also a matter of using the social features of the Assassin: in most campaigns, there's just no room for them, and in that case you should just go AT.

But the real deal is flavor: an Assassin is (archetypically) a focused, cold-blooded sumbitch, while an arcane trickster is a happy-go-lucky magical schemer. Where does your character land, if on any?

This forum is screwed up. Its against the rules to do multiposts, but I can't multiquote and It opens the same quote if I right click and hit open in new tab, even on different posts.

Well my character is actually a charismatic (12) bounty hunter that either kills or captures his prey. He used to be a burglar that worked for rich families and nobles but found bounty hunting more profitable.

[Specter]

Good. Some questions if you're going for Assassin:

- Do you leave a calling card or say specific words after killing someone?
- Is he connected to a similar order or does he oppose that?
- What is your moral compass? Do you kill those who deserve/crossed you, or any living being at any time?

If you're going for Arcane Trickster:

- How do you study magic (books, friends, talking to wizards, testing, etc.)?
- What spells are better suited for bounty hunting?

The rest is a background (Urban Bounty Hunter, from SCAG, or Criminal, or Charlatan).

[Nu]

This forum is screwed up. Its against the rules to do multiposts, but I can't multiquote and It opens the same quote if I right click and hit open in new tab, even on different posts.

Well my character is actually a charismatic (12) bounty hunter that either kills or captures his prey. He used to be a burglar that worked for rich families and nobles but found bounty hunting more profitable.

To multi-quote, click the "multi-quote this message" button to the right of the "reply with quote" button on each post you want to quote, then click "reply to thread" at the bottom.

[NewDM]

To multi-quote, click the "multi-quote this message" button to the right of the "reply with quote" button on each post you want to quote, then click "reply to thread" at the bottom.

I do that and it works a lot of the time, but sometimes I click multi-quote and it immediately tries to act like I hit "reply with quote" and it only shows the message I clicked on.


Good. Some questions if you're going for Assassin:

- Do you leave a calling card or say specific words after killing someone?

Nope. The best Rogues are just rumors whispered about in taverns. "Who the Grey Ghost? I heard he was a myth, but my friend said he saw a grey cloaked figure climbing upside down under the bridge with a sack of loot hanging from his back."

In this case:
http://i.imgur.com/EesZCrg.jpg
Except with dual shiny chrome stylish rapiers.



- Is he connected to a similar order or does he oppose that?

At the moment he's freelance and simply picks jobs that he wants. He had a few rich allies in the past that would give him burglary jobs (to steal important/incriminating documents or trinkets), but he's had to flee his home city because of a conflict between a rich family and a noble.


- What is your moral compass? Do you kill those who deserve/crossed you, or any living being at any time?

He actually chooses jobs that will give the most gold, but won't go after someone that doesn't 'deserve it', unless he gets paid a hefty sum.


If you're going for Arcane Trickster:

- How do you study magic (books, friends, talking to wizards, testing, etc.)?

I've got a few levels to figure that out.


- What spells are better suited for bounty hunting?

Well anything that will get him stealth and allow tracking. He's a former burglar that may use his old skills to pursue a bounty.


The rest is a background (Urban Bounty Hunter, from SCAG, or Criminal, or Charlatan).

Urban Bounty Hunter from SCAG, already chosen.

[ZenBear]

I second the vote for Swashbuckler. Stealth and tracking you get from Expertise, neither Assassin or AT benefit you much there. Also, AT generally needs a free hand for material and somatic components, so dual wielding is ill advised. Assassins can dual wield just fine, but Swashbucklers specialize in it. The question comes down to whether you want a kill unseen style vs a brazenly slaughter in a duel style.

[NewDM]

I second the vote for Swashbuckler. Stealth and tracking you get from Expertise, neither Assassin or AT benefit you much there. Also, AT generally needs a free hand for material and somatic components, so dual wielding is ill advised. Assassins can dual wield just fine, but Swashbucklers specialize in it. The question comes down to whether you want a kill unseen style vs a brazenly slaughter in a duel style.

Where is this swashbuckler?

[ZenBear]

Where is this swashbuckler?

Sword Coast Adventurers Guide

[Specter]

Where is this swashbuckler?

Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide. It's decent, really.

[Belac93]

Agreed on the Swashbuckler. If you're set on Assassin or Arcane Trickster, do the Assassin in a campaign where you think its features will come up a lot, and an Arcane Trickster in any other.

[NewDM]

Sword Coast Adventurers Guide

Eh, it doesn't really do a lot until high levels. The game I'm in has flanking for advantage. So gaining advantage is trivial. I'll probably just go arcane trickster and take warcaster as my feat. In any give round I'll:

Draw both weapons (Two Weapon Fighting feat) and attack
Put one weapon away (one item interaction per round) and cast a spell
If I have one weapon out, I'll draw the other as my item interaction and then attack with both.

I don't really see a problem with casting spells in combat.

[bid]

Another thumb up for swashbuckler. It works really well for melee rogue.

I feel assassin works better with bow and action surge. It only becomes great if you heavily RP the infiltration game. It's too much of a solo class for a party otherwise. I would pick a lazy mastermind over assassin (also from SCAG) if I went bow.

Your AT choice is good enough that you won't regret it.

[djreynolds]

Mirror image is a spell for the AT that will increase survival in melee. Cantrips are nice to have and scale. Shocking grasp in melee is nice to have for a rogue.

The rogue itself is awesome, IMO, but you want to land that sneak attack and you only need to hit once. I feel the AT is going to give you more. Invisibility is just awesome and coupled with expertise in stealth, you can walk right in.

But that said, an assassin with just 3 levels of wizard can snag invisibility as well. You may have increased success with assassinating.

[Nu]

Eh, it doesn't really do a lot until high levels. The game I'm in has flanking for advantage. So gaining advantage is trivial. I'll probably just go arcane trickster and take warcaster as my feat. In any give round I'll:

Draw both weapons (Two Weapon Fighting feat) and attack
Put one weapon away (one item interaction per round) and cast a spell
If I have one weapon out, I'll draw the other as my item interaction and then attack with both.

I don't really see a problem with casting spells in combat.

Actually, the high level swashbuckler features are pretty much junk (level 17 one is pretty solid, but it's level 17). You play the archetype for the level 3 features. Granted, the one that lets you Sneak Attack under "duel" circumstances is quite a bit weaker in a game with flanking, but that's not the only feature that gets severely devalued by allowing flanking. The free disengage-on-attack is nice, and combined with Dash from Cunning Action lets you do hit-and-run tactics quite well.

Though, I still wouldn't underestimate Rakish Audacity. The case of attacking an enemy with none of my allies near it came up quite a bit in the game I played my swashbuckler in, particularly since I would tend to roll very high on initiative with the Dex + Cha to initiative.

[DracoKnight]

particularly since I would tend to roll very high on initiative with the Dex + Cha to initiative.

The swashbuckler in the campaign I'm DMing loves this. They're Variant Human and took the Alert feat. They spent the next couple of ASIs maxing out DEX and CHA, so now they have a +15 to initiative. :smalltongue:

[busterswd]

The game I'm in has flanking for advantage. So gaining advantage is trivial.

No such rule in 5e. Unless your post meant you're houseruling this in, which trivializes a crap ton of other tactics.

[MeeposFire]

No such rule in 5e. Unless your post meant you're houseruling this in, which trivializes a crap ton of other tactics.

It is an optional rule found in the DMG. Around here most do not advocate using it though I am sure that is not universal.

[busterswd]

It is an optional rule found in the DMG. Around here most do not advocate using it though I am sure that is not universal.

Ah, gotcha. That seems like it would break 5e physical combat. It made perfect sense in 3.5 when it was an incremental bonus, but there are subclasses, spells, and statuses whose entire existence revolves around granting advantage. Plus, this would cancel out disadvantage pretty easily.

[NewDM]

Ah, gotcha. That seems like it would break 5e physical combat. It made perfect sense in 3.5 when it was an incremental bonus, but there are subclasses, spells, and statuses whose entire existence revolves around granting advantage. Plus, this would cancel out disadvantage pretty easily.

Yes, it gives advantage a lot and cancels disadvantage.

[SearchHunt]

I think you should go Rogue/Wizard if you want spells. If you want more survivability you should go Rogue/Ranger or Rogue/Fighter.

[NewDM]

I think you should go Rogue/Wizard if you want spells. If you want more survivability you should go Rogue/Ranger or Rogue/Fighter.

I was thinking about that going the multi-class route, but then I'd lose the Rogues auto-20 at high level.

Although I'm not even sure we'll play that long. It might not matter. If I do go this route I'll probably go Rogue Ranger for sneak attack + hunters mark.