Large+ size for melee-type characters: yay or nay?

[ShurikVch]

Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur templates are considered "too strong for their LA"
Half-Ogre race was updated to LA +2
Apparently, Large size is the best thing which could happen to melee-type before the Tome of Battle
OK, OK, I know: Large+ size is not just bonus to Str/Con/natural AC, but also to various combat maneuvers, and longer reach without reach weapon

But...

Say: "I wanna make mounted lancer!"
What's they would say?
"Horses are too large!"
"Wouldn't fit in a dungeon!"
"Wanna make good mounted lancer - take a gnome and mount on riding dog!"

While both points of view are seem OK, they clearly couldn't belong to the same world: Large-sized Warhorse(/Nightmare/Unicorn) is too big for a dungeon, but Large-sized Human Half-Minotaur fit in just fine?

What's up?

[Necrov]

Let's assume some a bit of logic here. The answer I'd go with is probably how much easier it is to maneuver and stoop, and squeeze through doorways, as a biped than a quadruped. There are also a lot of circumstances where having hooves, would be cumbersome, stairs for instance whilst doable are less than ideal, wolves and dogs definitely get an easier deal with obstacles.

Also of note. If you're playing a large sized creature you would need to ride a huge sized animal, which is... impractical at best in a dungeon, with corridors and doorways.

If I've misunderstood and you're aiming to play a medium creature riding a large sized, then consider this. You will be a medium sized creature -on top- of a large sized creature in a dungeon. So, not only will the mount be cumbersomely long or wide, it will now be awkwardly tall with it's rider on it's back.

[OldTrees1]

Mountain Rage, the solution for fitting in a dungeon and being large enough to have a ZoC when out in the open.

[Azoth]

Really even unmounted you seldom want to be larger than Large at all times. This is why most builds that get to Huge or larger have it as temporary effects or invest resources in being able to shrink down to a more manageable size.

It can also depend on what type of melee character you are. "Zone Controllers" are going to try and push their reach as far as they comfortably can to control as many enemies as possible. "Chargers" run into an issue of needing at least 10ft of room that isn't in their reach to be able to do their thing. So while 20-30ft of reach is an amazing thing for a tripper; it can be a hassle for chargers to find room to actually charge at that point or larger reaches, because it means they need to be 30-40ft away from their target in order to charge them.

As for mounts is is a bit of a combination of their dimensions and the irritation of trying to get them around environmental hazards. The party beatstick can easily lift and carry a riding dog up a ladder, but a warhorse is another story. Even once you reach a level where magic can solve the issue; that is another spell slot the party caster has to use in order for you to get your mount past the ladder. That is a cost another player has to pay for you to bring your pet in the dungeon.

[ShurikVch]

It can also depend on what type of melee character you are. "Zone Controllers" are going to try and push their reach as far as they comfortably can to control as many enemies as possible. "Chargers" run into an issue of needing at least 10ft of room that isn't in their reach to be able to do their thing. So while 20-30ft of reach is an amazing thing for a tripper; it can be a hassle for chargers to find room to actually charge at that point or larger reaches, because it means they need to be 30-40ft away from their target in order to charge them.Is there any other decent melee niches?
As for mounts is is a bit of a combination of their dimensions and the irritation of trying to get them around environmental hazards. The party beatstick can easily lift and carry a riding dog up a ladder, but a warhorse is another story. Even once you reach a level where magic can solve the issue; that is another spell slot the party caster has to use in order for you to get your mount past the ladder. That is a cost another player has to pay for you to bring your pet in the dungeon.Shrink Collar - 10k and the pet is Small, and weight only 60 lbs.

Mountain Rage, the solution for fitting in a dungeon and being large enough to have a ZoC when out in the open.But Mountain Rage combined with persisted Rage will make you Large for the whole 24h...

[OldTrees1]

Is there any other decent melee niches?
Depends on power level and environment. Both the rock(high defenses or high counterattack ratio + Evasive Reflexes) and the mobile(only in reach on their turn) can be viable. However both of those prefer medium size over large size. However they do less or struggle more in general than the ZoC and Charger respectively.



But Mountain Rage combined with persisted Rage will make you Large for the whole 24h...
I do not know how one could persist Mountain Rage, however I was talking about the 10+Con Mod rounds 3/day(Mountain Rage + Extra Rage feat + Extended Rage from the Otyugh Hole). So most of the time you would not be Large size but could become Large size for 3 encounters per day.

[ericgrau]

Yes, mounts are underrated and people like to join the bandwagon and find as many ways as possible to poke holes in them, even if they're being unreasonable.

Yes, sometimes dungeons are too tight to fit large creatures, but this is uncommon. You can squeeze in a 5' space. It's the rare 2.5' spaces that are buggers. For a large race you could get magic items to temporarily shrink yourself for the brief tight space, though not being humanoid makes it harder.

Also consider that mounts don't have as many benefits for being large, to overcome the drawbacks. Something to consider on a focused mount build, but not if your existing medium sized character wants a minor mount. A large race OTOH has BIG benefits. Half-Minotaur in particular has not only its size, but also its stats. Worth finding a workaround for tight spaces.

I think nearly every medium sized mid level character should spring for a size large cheap mount for the effective +1 to hit and +4 to AC all for a little gold and a few skill points. And if it gets killed or won't get into a tiny area, oh well you're out a little gold and it took 1 or more hits away from you. Actually I think smart foes would/should leave mounts alone and again tight spaces are rare.

That's it in a nutshell. Mounts have less benefits to overcome the drawbacks compared to a large race. You don't want to invest too heavily into them carelessly, whereas with a large race you might want to put in the extra effort to overcome any troubles with the build. As with most questions this has a quantitative rather than a qualitative answer, and you can't assume it's all or nothing.

[zergling.exe]

If you are worried about tight spaces, Tunnel Fighting and Tunnel Riding remove most of the penalties for squeezing, with only the double movement cost remaining.

[Coidzor]

Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur templates are considered "too strong for their LA"
Half-Ogre race was updated to LA +2
Apparently, Large size is the best thing which could happen to melee-type before the Tome of Battle
OK, OK, I know: Large+ size is not just bonus to Str/Con/natural AC, but also to various combat maneuvers, and longer reach without reach weapon

But...

Say: "I wanna make mounted lancer!"
What's they would say?
"Horses are too large!"
"Wouldn't fit in a dungeon!"
"Wanna make good mounted lancer - take a gnome and mount on riding dog!"

While both points of view are seem OK, they clearly couldn't belong to the same world: Large-sized Warhorse(/Nightmare/Unicorn) is too big for a dungeon, but Large-sized Human Half-Minotaur fit in just fine?

What's up?

Different people talking.

Bias against mounted builds and quadrupedal forms.

[Troacctid]

The problem with riding a mount indoors is that there's always that nagging voice in your head that says "There's a time and place for everything! But not now."

[TroubleBrewing]

The problem with riding a mount indoors is that there's always that nagging voice in your head that says "There's a time and place for everything! But not now."

I mean, if that's the specific issue, Paladin mounts are pretty much ideal for you. :smallbiggrin:

[ShurikVch]

Yes, mounts are underrated and people like to join the bandwagon and find as many ways as possible to poke holes in them, even if they're being unreasonable.
...
Mounts have less benefits to overcome the drawbacks compared to a large race.Then what's about all those "Ubermount" builds? Are all they strictly TO?

I do not know how one could persist Mountain RageFirestorm Berserker PrC able to extend Rage duration by burning Con... which can be recovered via Naberius. It's not a "real persistence", but lasts as long as you want; required Dragon #314

The problem with riding a mount indoorsI, personally, wouldn't call Undermountain or Underdark "indoors"...
There's a time and place for everything!it's called college! http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smiley_faces/chef-sp-smiley-face.gif?1302011331

[Coidzor]

Anything past a supermount is probably TO, yeah.

[Blackhawk748]

Then what's about all those "Ubermount" builds? Are all they strictly TO?

The Ubermount isn't a mounted combat build, its about making the most nasty creature you can and just having your character cling to its back while it kills everything for you.

In the vein of mounted characters i prefer to take Wild Cohort and get a Dire Wolf. Its still Large but it has far fewer of the issues of a horse.

[ShurikVch]

In the vein of mounted characters i prefer to take Wild Cohort and get a Dire Wolf.What's your opinion of Silverwood Outrider (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a)?

[Necroticplague]

Firestorm Berserker PrC able to extend Rage duration by burning Con... which can be recovered via Naberius. It's not a "real persistence", but lasts as long as you want; required Dragon #314

Sadly, Goliath's using the relevant ACF don't qualify. They have Mountain Rage, not Rage (and the ability explicitely says it replaces rage, not improves it).

[Blackhawk748]

What's your opinion of Silverwood Outrider (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a)?

Its not the worst. I mean the bonuses make sense, even if they arent particularly amazing. Brute Mount is pretty nice though. At the end of the day its a Full BaB Class with 4+ Int mod Skills and a not terrible skill list with thematic abilities, i see it working ok on a Mounted Fighter.


Sadly, Goliath's using the relevant ACF don't qualify. They have Mountain Rage, not Rage (and the ability explicitely says it replaces rage, not improves it).

Though a nice DM will probably approve it.

[ShurikVch]

Sadly, Goliath's using the relevant ACF don't qualify. They have Mountain Rage, not Rage (and the ability explicitely says it replaces rage, not improves it).Does it mean you can stop Mountain Rage without actually stopping Rage?
How about stacking Mountain Rage and Halfling Rage to count as Huge?

[OldTrees1]

Does it mean you can stop Mountain Rage without actually stopping Rage?
How about stacking Mountain Rage and Halfling Rage to count as Huge?

What is Halfling Rage? If Halfling Rage is "you count as 1 size larger than you are" or "you increase in size by 1 cateogry" then yes. But if it is "you count as medium/large" or "you increase to medium/large" then no.

[killem2]

In the very beginning when everybody is level 1 it can look like they have a really clear power creep over the rest of the group but the moment you start throwing tight spaces easy spells blind fighting Darkness or really any type of combat oriented Debuff you will see you then it really doesn't go that far