OOTS #1034 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[littlebum2002]

Elan is useful!

But more importantly, she has a point. How are they supposed to run and/or escape?

Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.

[ChillerInstinct]

Don't feel bad, Lien. If Elan was here you never would have heard the end of you mentioning all your surviving family all at once. :P

[CoffeeIncluded]

Anyone else really curious about the rider?

[SZbNAhL]

So O-Chul doesn't have a mount, then. Is that even possible for a paladin? Unless he's below level five or something, which I can't help but find a little unlikely.

[JohanOfKitten]

Don't feel bad, Lien. If Elan was here you never would have heard the end of you mentioning all your surviving family all at once. :P

so true !

At least O'Chul didn't say he was too old for that crap !

[Christopher K.]

Hmm, a lot of nods to the community, between this, the attempts to name Durkon*, and explaining why Banjo couldn't vote in the Godsmoot. I'm not sure how keen I am on these nods so often. :P

[PoeticDwarf]

{Scrubbed}

[Kantaki]

Weird, those Paladins keep saying things that sound perfectly reasonable to me. Especially O-Chul.

Retreating because nothing is at stake is certainly a novel concept. A shame it's not really a option right now.

[AdmiralCheez]

"In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting."
Sounds like 90% of the RPG sessions I've ever played in!

[Psyren]

Too bad they're not in Pathfinder :smallamused: Lien could smite through that thing and it would pack way more punch.


So O-Chul doesn't have a mount, then. Is that even possible for a paladin? Unless he's below level five or something, which I can't help but find a little unlikely.

He's a multiclass fighter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) He likely has very few actual paladin levels.

[The Giant]

Hmm, a lot of nods to the community, between this, the attempts to name Durkon*, and explaining why Banjo couldn't vote in the Godsmoot. I'm not sure how keen I am on these nods so often. :P

What "nod to the community" is in this strip? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

"If I had, we would already be riding it." :smallbiggrin: Great nod to the forum I'd say.

[Dandria]

He's a multiclass fighter. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) He likely has very few actual paladin levels.


I had completely forgot about that!

[thorr-kan]

Man, I wanna spinoff comic series with just these two!

[Rogan]

So O-Chul doesn't have a mount, then. Is that even possible for a paladin? Unless he's below level five or something, which I can't help but find a little unlikely.


We know he was a fighter for a long time. So it IS possible he does not have 5 Lvl of Paladin yet.
But someone else can surely tell you more.


Also, I realy like the fact that O-Chul votes for a retreat. Sure, they could fight and might be able to win, but why should they? As he pointed out, there is nobody else to protect. And they dont even know for sure if this rider is evil. He might as well be rather aggressive at protecting his teritory VS those 'intruders'

Edit: Ninjas... Ninjas everywhere. Oh well, I should have known better...

[ericgrau]

What "nod to the community" is in this strip? :smallconfused:

Oh, I thought you were poking fun at OChul mount speculation.

Then again the forum talks about every little detail that happens in the strip, so it's inevitable that the strip and the discussions will overlap.

[Hamste]

Elan is useful!

But more importantly, she has a point. How are they supposed to run and/or escape?

Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.

That basically sums up running in general if you don't have a teleporting mage on your side. Running is so rarely the best option in d&d.

[ChillerInstinct]

Hmm. Now that we have a perspective of the Rider and the Paladins in the same panel without the zoom favouring the other... Rider looks roughly the same size as O-Chul, MAYBE one size class bigger.

Also, that is DEFINITELY gray hair, and some sort of greenish/brown skin. Goblinoid of some description?

[Kish]

Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.
Wanna bet?

[hamishspence]

What "nod to the community" is in this strip? :smallconfused:

My first reaction to the Lien's comment about O' Chul's mount was that it was a nod to all the speculation about it that's been going on for years- especially lately.


But it also makes sense in-story and could just be coincidence, it is true.

[JohanOfKitten]

I love how Lien looks like she's sliding on ice to take cover at the last moment in the second panel !

It's really cinematic :smallcool:

[FlawedParadigm]

That sounds like a future .pdf; O-Chul gets a mount.

[Ave]

Keep shooting... but more importantly, roll natural 20s :D

[Bobbybobby99]

Hah, nice banter, and realism.

[MReav]

So O-Chul doesn't have a mount, then. Is that even possible for a paladin? Unless he's below level five or something, which I can't help but find a little unlikely.

He's a Fighter/Paladin multiclass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). He's probably got less than 5 paladin levels, but he's got a fair number of fighter levels.

And even if he does have more paladin levels, his mount would simply not be a"super-fast celestial pegasus".

[ChillerInstinct]

Keep shooting... but more importantly, roll natural 20s :D

Where's Eugene and his foreshadowing when you need him...

[Leirus]

So... the raider is female, something we would not have been able to gauge with the old art. A female globinoid? Or are the feet camouflage?

[Adun]

Wanna bet?

Well he says that he doesn't have a fast or flying mount.

My bet stay on a polar bear (ops the bear is fast...)

[Kish]

Couldn't you have posted that just after littlebum took me up on the bet?

:smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

Looks like the rider is a woman.

[JohanOfKitten]

Well he says that he doesn't have a fast or flying mount.

My bet stay on a polar bear (ops the bear is fast...)

If Resurrection was as easy on people as it is on this forum's speculations, the afterlife wouldn't be very crowded:smallbiggrin:

[The Giant]

Oh, I thought you were poking fun at OChul mount speculation.

Then again the forum talks about every little detail that happens in the strip, so it's inevitable that the strip and the discussions will overlap.

I didn't know there was any such speculation. I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

It's just a logical point that needed to be made in the scene, given that all other paladins so far have had mounts.

[Quild]

Hmm, a lot of nods to the community, between this, the attempts to name Durkon*, and explaining why Banjo couldn't vote in the Godsmoot. I'm not sure how keen I am on these nods so often. :P

Because the communauty overanalyzes everything, a lot of things may looks like not to the communauty without being intended as such :smallsigh:

[GM_3826]

I would guess that O-Chul has at least 3 or 4 paladin levels, but it makes sense that he could have less than 5.

[KillingAScarab]

If only Redcloak were there to watch as paladins get a choice between something other than, "Fight or Fight Some More (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html)."

Ah, who am I kidding, Redcloak would be buffing the yrthak and rider, if not killing Lien and O-Chul himself.

[8BitNinja]

So they did have ranged weapons

But where did crossbow come from?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRWbIoIR04c

Anyway, nice comic again. I always love it when new comics are posted.

Wait, Mr. Burlew reads the first few posts? I had the first post once on an OotS thread, so that means...

Senpai noticed me! :smallbiggrin:

Jokes aside, I liked the comic, it was really good

[SmaugTheYounger]

What a strange situation. The goblinoid? rider has no weapons and relys only on the yrthaks attack capability. This looks more like a strength probing than an outright attack to destroy an enemy.

Could he belong to some sort of reconnaisance system of the gates defences?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting.

Best Advice Ever!:smallbiggrin:

[LordRahl6]

O-Chul gets some nice one liners.

"If I had one (Pegasus) it would already be out." and "You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan you should be shooting.":smallcool:

Also like how they reason they should try to extricate themselves since there s no reason to fight.:smallamused:

[Quild]

What a strange situation. The goblinoid? rider has no weapons and relys only on the yrthaks attack capability. This looks more like a strength probing than an outright attack to destroy an enemy.

Could he belong to some sort of reconnaisance system of the gates defences?
Maybe it's a brown one with nice shoes, but I don't think the rider is a goblinoid at all.


I always figured that attacking an enemy for high damage while suffering very low damage was a good strategy to destroy such enemy. I seem to have still a lot to learn:smallconfused:

[8BitNinja]

O-Chul gets some nice one liners.

"If I had one (Pegasus) it would already be out." and "You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan you should be shooting.":smallcool:

Also like how they reason they should try to extricate themselves since there s no reason to fight.:smallamused:

So I checked, and there is a 2% chance of getting a Pegasus as a mount. My question is why would Lien expect him to have something that rare that you can only roll for once?

[Anarion]

O-chul showing great strategy, but minimal tactical insight there. As a former fighter though, he really ought to have a ragged weapon. Tut tut.

[hamishspence]

So I checked, and there is a 2% chance of getting a Pegasus as a mount. My question is why would Lien expect him to have something that rare that you can only roll for once?

I'm pretty sure that in 3.5 you don't roll for mounts - you can choose them, with your DMs agreement. BoED had the list of common non-warhorse Paladin Mounts as I recall.

[Tarqiup Inua]

Mount are very important class feature to paladins - intelligence is a dump stat for many, so smart companion can come handy.


I'm pretty sure that in 3.5 you don't roll for mounts - you can choose them, with your DMs agreement. BoED had the list of common non-warhorse Paladin Mounts as I recall.

Perhaps there was a table for rolling mounts of NPC paladins, somewhere? That could explain the confusion.

[Lhynard]

Could he belong to some sort of reconnaisance system of the gates defences?

she, not he

[PallentisLunam]

Awesome comic. Love the strategy talk and the reframing of the order's favorite tactic. Embrace that oldest and noblest of Paladin traditions.

One question though, what's with the black damage marks on O'Chul and Lien?

[KillingAScarab]

So I checked, and there is a 2% chance of getting a Pegasus as a mount. My question is why would Lien expect him to have something that rare that you can only roll for once?


I'm pretty sure that in 3.5 you don't roll for mounts - you can choose them, with your DMs agreement. BoED had the list of common non-warhorse Paladin Mounts as I recall.However, if you did, then the chance to get a very fast flying mount would need to be one-in-a-million (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) to apply to this situation.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[LunarDrop]

Darn, I was really hoping for a white lion.
But in lieu of a plan line makes up for it.

[Peelee]

Old, female goblinoid.

I'ma sit here and wait for all the Redcloak's niece speculation to come in.

[Gift Jeraff]

Awesome comic. Love the strategy talk and the reframing of the order's favorite tactic. Embrace that oldest and noblest of Paladin traditions.

One question though, what's with the black damage marks on O'Chul and Lien?

They are wounds but not flesh wounds.

[Carl]

Old, female goblinoid.

I'ma sit here and wait for all the Redcloak's niece speculation to come in.

I've been expecting this ever since we first got the rider on page.

That or siri speculation :p.

[GM_3826]

If the rider is a goblinoid, then why does she have a human skin color?

[Peelee]

If the rider is a goblinoid, then why does she have a human skin color?

Because I'm colorblind, and was basing it on the footgear.

[PallentisLunam]

They are wounds but not flesh wounds.

Huh, I guess I never noticed black wounds on living characters before.

[SmaugTheYounger]

she, not he

Did'nt outright notice the female body form.



Maybe it's a brown one with nice shoes, but I don't think the rider is a goblinoid at all.

I always figured that attacking an enemy for high damage while suffering very low damage was a good strategy to destroy such enemy. I seem to have still a lot to learn:smallconfused:

In the thread for #1032 there were speculations about the riders race, but I have no real opinion on this.

I would not rule out a stratetegy for pure destruction, too; but if this were her primary goal, she ought to have some sort of ranged weapon for backup, in case the enemy turned out to be stronger than anticipated.

Since yrthaks do not speak, her function seems be on the intel gathering side - unless she is a sorcerer/wizard.

[Sniffnoy]

Usage nitpick: "In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting." should probably be something like "Absent a plan, you should keep shooting." "In lieu of a plan" suggests that they have a plan and are ignoring it in favor of shooting, or that they are ignoring trying to come with a plan in favor of shooting, rather than what I assume was the intended message of, seeing as we don't have a plan, you should keep shooting.

[NeoNinevite]

This was a good comic overall, especially the "In lieu of a plan, keep shooting" line.

[WindStruck]

Interesting! Maybe it could be Siri if she cast enlarge person on herself or something! I guess the monster isn't undead either.

I do agree those paladins could be doing more, though! They have lay on hands and spells. O'chul should be buffing and healing! Hm. But he doesn't have any decent charisma either, does he? Maybe O'chul should be the one shooting...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I like O'Chul's strategy. It's a pity that it didn't work out.

[Lkctgo]

Hm, even if they dont have paladin mounts, why not purchase a mount before travelling through the mountains (even detouring to find a stable would be more practical than walking). Given the terrain type and their armour, won't they be travelling at a snail pace without mounts.

[Crusher]

Hm, even if they dont have paladin mounts, why not purchase a mount before travelling through the mountains (even detouring to find a stable would be more practical than walking). Given the terrain type and their armour, won't they be travelling at a snail pace without mounts.

Well, they road a shark all the way up there and they're close to the North Pole, so its by no means certain they've actually been through a town recently. What exactly they've been eating all this time is an open question, but DMs aren't usually super concerned with that kind of point anyway.

[Gift Jeraff]

If the rider is a goblinoid, then why does she have a human skin color?

She might be a bugbear.

[137beth]

Also it's possible (hob)goblins don't all have the same skin tone, and the hobgoblins Redcloak's army had were just unusually racially homogeneous.

[IDrankWHAT]

Lien mentioned Elan and his dramatics, I was actually half way expecting a lone panel of Elan doing his patented DUN-DUN-DUUUUUUN! :smallbiggrin:

[Demonsul]

I mean, it's cold out. She could just be wearing gloves.

[ChillerInstinct]

If the rider is a goblinoid, then why does she have a human skin color?

It might be the lighting, but I'd argue that the rider's hands (as seen in panel 5) are a very pale green. Could just as easily be a very light brown as well, distorted from the snow effects, but at the moment I'm leaning towards the former.

Hmm... looking closer at the bottom of the helmet, there seems to be something that could possibly be a necklace. Quite possibly bone. Wonder if we're looking at a Druid or Shaman?

EDIT:
I mean, it's cold out. She could just be wearing gloves.

Also a good point.

[Christopher K.]

What "nod to the community" is in this strip? :smallconfused:
Well, I assumed the discussion of O-Chul's mount was specifically in response to the speculation here on the forums. I suppose I just read too much into it, though!

[warmachine]

This is why any 3e/Pathfinder elite military unit worth its dry rations issues longbows as secondary weapons, if not primary. Something flying is bound to come along, which will stick around harassing if there isn't retaliation from the ground. Any decent martial class is proficient in all martial weapons and bows don't require a Move action to load. This is why all adventuring elves, including academics like me, have the sense to carry longbows.

[SaintRidley]

Hmm...

Redcloak's niece? Large size, but possibly using Enlarge Person from the Strength Domain as a cleric of Thrym.

[ChillerInstinct]

This is why any 3e/Pathfinder elite military unit worth its dry rations issues longbows as secondary weapons, if not primary. Something flying is bound to come along, which will stick around harassing if there isn't retaliation from the ground. Any decent martial class is proficient in all martial weapons and bows don't require a Move action to load. This is why all adventuring elves, including academics like me, have the sense to carry longbows.

Or magic. Lots and lots of magic. Tragically most of the spells Paladins get aren't very useful for shooting flying creatures out of the air, though. >_>

[Raazan]

I like the comment about running away. Yet another example of paladins being played as something other than lawful stupid. They have no real reason to stay and fight, the only one this beast is endangering is them, and they can't really attack the thing in any effective manner. Why sit around and wait to be hit by this lunatic?

[Agi Hammerthief]

keeping shooting is not 'a plan' then?

[GM_3826]

It might be the lighting, but I'd argue that the rider's hands (as seen in panel 5) are a very pale green. Could just as easily be a very light brown as well, distorted from the snow effects, but at the moment I'm leaning towards the former.

Hmm... looking closer at the bottom of the helmet, there seems to be something that could possibly be a necklace. Quite possibly bone. Wonder if we're looking at a Druid or Shaman?

EDIT:

Also a good point.

One of us has to be colorblind, because I could swear they're the exact same color as O-Chul and Lien's in the panel right next to it.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

O-Chul was a fighter for years before he was a paladin. Charisma is his dump stat, which is why we never see him turn undead, or do any healing or divine spells. Of course he doesn't have a mount.

[ChillerInstinct]

One of us has to be colorblind, because I could swear they're the exact same color as O-Chul and Lien's in the panel right next to it.

I can definitely say that, at least in my eyes, Lien and O-Chul have significantly lighter skin in Panel 4 compared to the Rider's hands in Panel 5. Could just be my eyes, I dunno.

[Kish]

keeping shooting is not 'a plan' then?
Considering she already said it won't work, no.

[warmachine]

Or magic [for dealing with flying creatures]. Lots and lots of magic. Tragically most of the spells Paladins get aren't very useful for shooting flying creatures out of the air, though. >_>
Indeed, a good choice in most situations, which is why arcane talented elves study magic. Now, I know humans don't quite have the talent for arcane magic as elves but the Sapphire Guard is shockingly bad at team diversity, especially considering they're an elite division. As you say, Paladin spells aren't very useful for shooting flying creatures. Good at melee and healing but not scouting or searching either. So their commander sends two with these same weaknesses. Into a wilderness. You can see a better team build, I can see a better team build. Why the Sapphire Guard doesn't have Rangers or Scouts is a mystery to us both.

[GM_3826]

I can definitely say that, at least in my eyes, Lien and O-Chul have significantly lighter skin in Panel 4 compared to the Rider's hands in Panel 5. Could just be my eyes, I dunno.

Eh, the masked yrthak rider has a slightly darker skin tone. Still nothing to suggest that it's not a human skin tone, or even that it's not the lighting. Redcloak's niece seems right out.

[ChillerInstinct]

Eh, the masked yrthak rider has a slightly darker skin tone. Still nothing to suggest that it's not a human skin tone, or even that it's not the lighting. Redcloak's niece seems right out.

I concur on the niece, and it's entirely possible that the Rider is a dark-skinned humanoid who is pale from the cold. However, I personally see it as more of a pale green, almost even dark gray tone (I guess we've never considered the possibility of some sort of fleshy undead), more consistent with goblinoids or even certain types of monstrous humanoids.

Hopefully Lien will knock off the helmet with one of her shots in the next couple of pages for a dramatic reveal, and we'll know for sure, I guess.

[8BitNinja]

I'm pretty sure that in 3.5 you don't roll for mounts - you can choose them, with your DMs agreement. BoED had the list of common non-warhorse Paladin Mounts as I recall.

So I was using the AD&D rules thinking that they were the same as the 3.5e rules the whole time?

Crap

[Emperordaniel]

As someone once said, "keep firing, keep firing!"

[Wardog]

When you have to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

- Tuko, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[deimos3428]

Hopefully Lien will knock off the helmet with one of her shots in the next couple of pages for a dramatic reveal, and we'll know for sure, I guess.
If that happens, I hope she will be wearing headgear with NOPE! on it. Because that never gets old.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html

[Doug Lampert]

What "nod to the community" is in this strip? :smallconfused:

Rich, don't you know that ANYTIME you answer an obvious question that most readers will have about the action you are obviously responding to that question in the forums, not anticipating the question because it's obvious. And CERTAINLY you'd never be capable of deliberately setting things up so people would wonder about something prior to resolving it.

In answer to your question, you'd never have thought that O'Chul might have a useful mount if people hadn't been speculating about this in the forum. There is simply no way you would have anticipated people wondering about a Paladin maybe having a mount or thought about mentioning a mount when Our Heroes, who are both Paladins, are in a situation where they really need additional mobility.

Since you somehow managed to indicate that Lien's mount is a shark (despite apparently not being aware of the possibility of useful and unusual mounts), for Lien to mention the possibility that O'Chul might also have a useful and unusual mount must be in response to the forum. It couldn't be that you thought readers seeing Lien, and thus reminded that you do allow unusual and useful mounts, might wonder if possibly O'Chul had such a mount without being prompted by the forum.


I didn't know there was any such speculation. I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

It's just a logical point that needed to be made in the scene, given that all other paladins so far have had mounts.

So Rich won't see this, but maybe other people will. Seriously, Rich mentioning something obvious is not a nod to the forums. No matter how many people on the forums have speculated on the obvious thing, it was still obvious, and Rich still needed to cover it for the book to work, and all of that was true prior to the comic even going up and we are here because Rich doesn't make really blatant storytelling mistakes all that often.

Hence having set us up to wonder about O'Chul's mount, he answers the question.

When you think Rich must be responding to the forum, ask if the reference would be needed or useful to a reader who'd never seen the forum. If the answer is yes, then assume it's not an answer to the forum.

Seriously, when Rich wants to respond to the forum he does so in the forum (see above). This is getting as annoying as the previous claims that everything was a nod to TVTropes.

[Bulldog Psion]

Size, tan hands, goblinoid footgear, and seeming facial fur all say "bugbear" to me.

Realistically, they're pretty much dead. They're like Crassus' men at Carrhae -- out in the open, up against a more mobile enemy equipped with superior ranged weapons.

Good thing this is D&D. :smallbiggrin:

[SmaugTheYounger]

Size, tan hands, goblinoid footgear, and seeming facial fur all say "bugbear" to me.

Realistically, they're pretty much dead. They're like Crassus' men at Carrhae -- out in the open, up against a more mobile enemy equipped with superior ranged weapons.

Good thing this is D&D. :smallbiggrin:

Also, icon of indestructiblety, who literally got fed to the sharks on a dayly basis. Screaming really loud on such a guy just doesn't cut it.

[Runeclaw]

but the Sapphire Guard is shockingly bad at team diversity, especially considering they're an elite division. As you say, Paladin spells aren't very useful for shooting flying creatures. Good at melee and healing but not scouting or searching either. So their commander sends two with these same weaknesses. Into a wilderness. You can see a better team build, I can see a better team build. Why the Sapphire Guard doesn't have Rangers or Scouts is a mystery to us both.

Actually, prior to its decimation, the Sapphire Guard contained quite a few multi-class Paladins including several with arcane magic. But now, the only Paladins it has left are Hinjo, O'Chul, and Lien, who appear to be straight Paladins except for O'Chul, who is a Fighter/Paladin.

But yes, any martial character should be carrying an effective ranged weapon - and not just an unenchanted crossbow, either.

[Killer Angel]

Hmm...

Redcloak's niece? Large size, but possibly using Enlarge Person from the Strength Domain as a cleric of Thrym.

At least, this one is an interesting theory. I like it. :smallsmile:


keeping shooting is not 'a plan' then?

"Shoot stronger" is better :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

The little known corollary to Chandler's Law (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChandlersLaw) in action. :smallcool:

[rman]

"Shoot stronger" is better :smalltongue:

Bless, Bless Weapon, Magic Weapon, Bulls Strength, Prayer, Divine Favour.

Now shoot stronger!

[2.5 cats]

Get to work, O-Chul!

Time to turn that spear into a makeshift harpoon.

[Aquatosic]

Can someone explain how to get one of those sig quotes working. Because "you're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, keep shooting" is my new favorite quote

[Edhelras]

I would just like to point out the vague resemblance between the yrthak rider and the Princess Mononoke in the Studio Ghibli film.

[Gift Jeraff]

Can someone explain how to get one of those sig quotes working. Because "you're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, keep shooting" is my new favorite quote

If I understand what you mean, just copypaste


You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting.

or

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/O-Chul_zpstghfz6jv.png You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting.

into your signature.

[Kish]

If I understand what you mean, just copypaste



or

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/O-Chul_zpstghfz6jv.png You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting.

into your signature.
Or if you want the source, putting:


https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/O-Chul_zpstghfz6jv.pngYou're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html) in your signature should do it.

[Shining Wrath]

"In lieu of a plan, you should keep shooting". Good advice for someone whose mastery of narrative tropes has failed them for the moment.

Since Lien has a ring of water breathing, could they chop a hole in the ice and pass the ring back and forth? I'm confident O-Chul can hold his breath for 10 minutes at a shot, Lien probably at least 5, they can outwait it or let it land and approach the hole.

[SmaugTheYounger]

I would just like to point out the vague resemblance between the yrthak rider and the Princess Mononoke in the Studio Ghibli film.

Wow, you're right. This scene just got a notch weirder. Now I'm really not sure, wether Lien should keep on shooting at her. It could turn out not to be that reasonable after all.

[gooddragon1]

Popped over to the class level and geekery thread for a moment:
Lien's at least level 13. If that's all paladin she's got +13 to hit (assuming no dex penalty). That means she hits on a 5 or better against AC 18. aka 80% chance to hit. If it's a masterwork crossbow it could be 85% chance. Problem is that it's got a pretty good chunk of HP. Also, this could have a higher AC. Although I'm surprised "turns like a frigate" is average maneuverability. I would think that would be clumsy maneuverability. Maybe it's the weather and/or not a standard Yrthak. Or maybe it's some other factor.

[holywhippet]

This is why any 3e/Pathfinder elite military unit worth its dry rations issues longbows as secondary weapons, if not primary. Something flying is bound to come along, which will stick around harassing if there isn't retaliation from the ground. Any decent martial class is proficient in all martial weapons and bows don't require a Move action to load. This is why all adventuring elves, including academics like me, have the sense to carry longbows.

I don't understand why anyone character would use a crossbow except when they don't have proficiency for bows. Once you get multiple attacks per round which can be used with long or short bows then crossbows, other than the repeating type, are pretty much a waste of time since they can only fire at best once per round. I suppose the Sapphire guard aren't used to dealing with aerial attackers that they can't deal with using melee attacks. Especially likely since only one of them seems to even have a ranged weapon.

[Shining Wrath]

Hmm, a lot of nods to the community, between this, the attempts to name Durkon*, and explaining why Banjo couldn't vote in the Godsmoot. I'm not sure how keen I am on these nods so often. :P

The forums discuss every possible aspect of the strips; the Giant can hardly continue any ongoing narrative sequence without bumping into something we've speculated upon.


I didn't know there was any such speculation. I don't read the forum anymore, beyond the threads about products and the first few posts of a new comic thread (so I can make sure other people are actually seeing the posted comic).

It's just a logical point that needed to be made in the scene, given that all other paladins so far have had mounts.

You really should read the forums, we're witty and erudite and we give you all sort of tips on plot development ... uh, maybe it's better if you don't.


I can definitely say that, at least in my eyes, Lien and O-Chul have significantly lighter skin in Panel 4 compared to the Rider's hands in Panel 5. Could just be my eyes, I dunno.

The rider's hands are almost identical in tone (to my eyes) to the rider's belt, so I vote for "gloves" until proven otherwise.


Popped over to the class level and geekery thread for a moment:
Lien's at least level 13. If that's all paladin she's got +13 to hit (assuming no dex penalty). That means she hits on a 5 or better against AC 18. aka 80% chance to hit. If it's a masterwork crossbow it could be 85% chance. Problem is that it's got a pretty good chunk of HP. Also, this could have a higher AC. Although I'm surprised "turns like a frigate" is average maneuverability. I would think that would be clumsy maneuverability. Maybe it's the weather and/or not a standard Yrthak. Or maybe it's some other factor.

It's doing 6d6 per attack and taking 1d8. I'd say the odds are in its favor unless Lien can shoot 6 times per attack pass.

[zimmerwald1915]

You really should read the forums, we're witty and erudite and we give you all sort of tips on plot development ... uh, maybe it's better if you don't.
I can't think of one fandom that positively contributed to the object of its adoration. Frankly, I'm surprised the forum is allowed to continue existing.


The rider's hands are almost identical in tone (to my eyes) to the rider's belt, so I vote for "gloves" until proven otherwise.
In fact, while the rider's belt is R160, G116, B90, the rider's hands are R193, G168, B112. In layman's terms, they're substantially lighter and yellower.

We also know what gloves look like in the new art, because Belkar was wearing a pair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html). The gloves' cuffs flare out to fit over the ends of his sleeves, which we know from earlier strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) are baggy like the rider's rather than form-fitting like, say, Roy's or Lien's.

To me, that evidence, circumstantial though it all is, suggests skin, not gloves.

[littlebum2002]

It's doing 6d6 per attack and taking 1d8. I'd say the odds are in its favor unless Lien can shoot 6 times per attack pass.

This isn't logically correct. What would you rather, to have 10HP and receiving 1d8 per round, or have 100 HP and receiving 6d6 per round? The amount of damage matters just as much as their HP, and 2 Paladins are going to have significantly more HP than a Yrthak(102 average), plus they can heal.

[kivzirrum]

O'Chul's deadpan never fails to be hilarious. I'm glad he's finally back.

[holywhippet]

It's doing 6d6 per attack and taking 1d8. I'd say the odds are in its favor unless Lien can shoot 6 times per attack pass.

That does assume it is an unenchanted weapon firing normal bolts. Which I'll admit seems likely given they don't seem overly prepared in terms of ranged weapons.

[SunnyFox]

keeping shooting is not 'a plan' then?

Given the context of the discussion, O-Chul probably means 'a plan for our escape'.

[IamWeasel]

I concur on the niece, and it's entirely possible that the Rider is a dark-skinned humanoid who is pale from the cold. However, I personally see it as more of a pale green, almost even dark gray tone (I guess we've never considered the possibility of some sort of fleshy undead), more consistent with goblinoids or even certain types of monstrous humanoids.

Hopefully Lien will knock off the helmet with one of her shots in the next couple of pages for a dramatic reveal, and we'll know for sure, I guess.

I am ruling undead out due to the ythrak being living. It wouldn't exactly be happy about having some undead on it's back and it's got no eyes so vampiric domination seems to be out too.

[Darth Paul]

So they did have ranged weapons

But where did crossbow come from?

Lien obviously had it in either Hammerspace (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace), or, a very remote possibility (see the illustration accompanying this link), in her Victoria's Secret Compartment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VictoriasSecretCompartment).

Given the armor and heavy winter clothing, I'm going with possibility #1.



Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.

I think all it did was eliminate one creature from the list of candidates... the speculation will only end when we either see it or he states, "I don't actually have one yet."

[Ruck]

I would guess that O-Chul has at least 3 or 4 paladin levels, but it makes sense that he could have less than 5.
3 or 4 would certainly qualify as less than 5.


Hmm...

Redcloak's niece? Large size, but possibly using Enlarge Person from the Strength Domain as a cleric of Thrym.
I can't even tell who's kidding anymore and who isn't.

[Darth Paul]

3 or 4 would certainly qualify as less than 5.

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!

[Necris Omega]

A sound plan right up until it hit the "execution" portion of the requirements. Ah well.

Even with a mount, though, I don't think it would be enough. Even escaping something with flight maneuverability "derpy" would be a challenge on foot in this circumstance.



... Maybe he has burrowing mount! Go go gadget Celestial Dire Mole!

[Ruck]

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!

Whew, thanks for the clarification. I was an English major specializing in creative writing, so I can give you a story that makes 3 and 4 feel smaller than 5.

[commander panda]

soooo is there water under that ice? cause because they both have endure elements on, and i'm pretty sure i know someone with a shark.

[Peelee]

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!

I'm gonna require a more in-depth proof.

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

Wonderful Absolutely hilarious. Thanks!
:smallsmile:

[8BitNinja]

Bless, Bless Weapon, Magic Weapon, Bulls Strength, Prayer, Divine Favour.

Now shoot stronger!

Good combo, but wouldn't you use Cat's Grace instead of Bull's Strength?

[BriarHobbit]

The water breathing/celestial shark/we're immune to ordinary cold combo is pretty funny. If there is non-frozen water underneath them, it might work. Otherwise, they are going to get shredded, and that would be a shame.

[zimmerwald1915]

Good combo, but wouldn't you use Cat's Grace instead of Bull's Strength?
The point, I gather, was largely to improve damage rather than to-hit.

Unfortunately, bull's strength is completely useless to that end, because crossbows don't apply the user's Strength modifier to damage.

[Mad Humanist]

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!


I'm gonna require a more in-depth proof.

That is an entirely reasonable request if you are starting from Peano's axioms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms).

[Themrys]

I would just like to point out the vague resemblance between the yrthak rider and the Princess Mononoke in the Studio Ghibli film.

Good point. Especially good point since people on this thread seem insistent to assume the rider is male - the garment they are wearing is covering the hips, so we have no way to know for sure, not even with the very easy determinable sexual dimorphism of oots stick figures.

[PoeticDwarf]

So I checked, and there is a 2% chance of getting a Pegasus as a mount. My question is why would Lien expect him to have something that rare that you can only roll for once?

She isn't metagaming?

[Keltest]

Good point. Especially good point since people on this thread seem insistent to assume the rider is male - the garment they are wearing is covering the hips, so we have no way to know for sure, not even with the very easy determinable sexual dimorphism of oots stick figures.

Its very difficult to see if you aren't looking for it, but you can actually see part of a female figure underneath the cloak in the latest panel.

[GM_3826]

Its very difficult to see if you aren't looking for it, but you can actually see part of a female figure underneath the cloak in the latest panel.

Yep, the rider has boobs. It's confirmed.

[Rootbeer Guy]

Is it possible the direction that they could be heading is down?

[TurboGhast]

Is it possible the direction that they could be heading is down?

How would they be able to do that? What paladin mounts let you go underground?

[Rootbeer Guy]

How would they be able to do that? What paladin mounts let you go underground?
Who said anything about ground? I know they're standing on ice but I don't know what's under that ice.

[Jay R]

Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.

Not a chance. Maybe when he calls for it, the mount will be the MitD.


What a strange situation. The goblinoid? rider has no weapons ...

As established earlier with Lien's crossbow (among many examples), weapons are often not drawn until they are drawn.


3 or 4 would certainly qualify as less than 5.

Yes, but "at least 3 or 4" does not automatically mean less than 5, which was his point.

[martianmister]

Yep, the rider has boobs. It's confirmed.

Or he's a transgender man.

[GM_3826]

Or he's a transgender man.

True. In the space of this comic, though, that would be highly confusing. (Unless that's what Varsuuvius is. Than it'd make sense.)

[8BitNinja]

The point, I gather, was largely to improve damage rather than to-hit.

Unfortunately, bull's strength is completely useless to that end, because crossbows don't apply the user's Strength modifier to damage.

If there is anything I know about my own class, is that paladin's get their charisma modifier added on to every stat, so why not cast Eagle's Splendor?

[Kish]

If there is anything I know about my own class, is that paladin's get their charisma modifier added on to every stat, so why not cast Eagle's Splendor?
...there is nothing 8BitNinja knows about his own class. He said it himself, folks!

[KorvinStarmast]

The water breathing/celestial shark/we're immune to ordinary cold combo is pretty funny. If there is non-frozen water underneath them, it might work. Otherwise, they are going to get shredded, and that would be a shame. Not to mention that sound energy propogates faster and stronger in the denser medium: water. If they go under water and yrthak sticks head into water and sonic lances, might the damage be amplified? (Sure am glad Rich never reads the forum ... )

[Keltest]

Not to mention that sound energy propogates faster and stronger in the denser medium: water. If they go under water and yrthak sticks head into water and sonic lances, might the damage be amplified? (Sure am glad Rich never reads the forum ... )

Were I to DM it, I would increase the save DC and/or add bonuses to hit (not sure how the thing's attack actually works, mechanics wise) if it were to attack something in the water.

[Jay R]

Not to mention that sound energy propogates faster and stronger in the denser medium: water. If they go under water and yrthak sticks head into water and sonic lances, might the damage be amplified? (Sure am glad Rich never reads the forum ... )

Rich is a story-teller, not a DM. It will do exactly as much damage as is necessary for the story.

[Darth Paul]

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!


I'm gonna require a more in-depth proof.

If 3=3, and 1=1, and 4=4, and 3+1=4, then 3=/=4 and 3 < 4. If 4=4, and 1=1, and 5=5, and 4+1=5, then 4=/=5 and 4 < 5.

If 3 < 4 and 4 < 5, then 3 < 4 < 5.

I hope this meets the standards of a rigorous proof, but college was 30 years ago and Trig 102 is a little blurry...

[Jay R]

If 3=3, and 1=1, and 4=4, and 3+1=4, then 3=/=4 and 3 < 4. If 4=4, and 1=1, and 5=5, and 4+1=5, then 4=/=5 and 4 < 5.

If 3 < 4 and 4 < 5, then 3 < 4 < 5.

I hope this meets the standards of a rigorous proof, but college was 30 years ago and Trig 102 is a little blurry...

But the original quantity was not 3. Nor was it 4. It was "at least 3 or 4".

A quantity that is at least 3 or 4 is not necessarily less than 5.

Proof by example. 6 is at least 3 or 4. 6 is not less than 5.

[Darth Paul]

3 or 4 would certainly qualify as less than 5.

But this ^ was the statement I was verifying, Jay. Not the "at least 3 or 4" statement. 1,000,000 also counts as at least 3 or 4, so I'll grant you that one.

[Werbaer]

If 3=3, and 1=1, and 4=4, and 3+1=4, then 3=/=4 and 3 < 4.
Only if 1 > 0.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also, that ends the speculation on O-Chul's mount.
I keep finding it harder and harder to believe the Giant doesn't read the forum posts to see what points he needs to cover, no matter what he says.
Maybe he's established a subconscious link to how the community thinks or something.


So O-Chul doesn't have a mount, then. Is that even possible for a paladin? Unless he's below level five or something, which I can't help but find a little unlikely.
Xykon doesn't have a familiar. Just having access to a class feature doesn't mean you need to use it.


Maybe it's a brown one with nice shoes, but I don't think the rider is a goblinoid at all.
Wouldn't those be the goblin equivalent of those weird shoes with individual toes?


This is why any 3e/Pathfinder elite military unit worth its dry rations issues longbows as secondary weapons, if not primary. Something flying is bound to come along, which will stick around harassing if there isn't retaliation from the ground. Any decent martial class is proficient in all martial weapons and bows don't require a Move action to load.
Also, longbows are devastating in large numbers, particularly with good terrain or tactics, and cost little more than a few hours of training every day of a man's life. A half-dozen knights would probably be able to defeat a half-dozen longbowmen, but they would lose to the number of longbowmen you could hire for the cost of the knights' destriers, armor, weapons, and so on.
Of course, this breaks down a little if longbows cost five times as many gold pieces as longswords and don't get strength bonuses...


Considering she already said it won't work, no.
That just makes it a bad plan.


Indeed, a good choice in most situations, which is why arcane talented elves study magic. Now, I know humans don't quite have the talent for arcane magic as elves but the Sapphire Guard is shockingly bad at team diversity, especially considering they're an elite division. As you say, Paladin spells aren't very useful for shooting flying creatures. Good at melee and healing but not scouting or searching either. So their commander sends two with these same weaknesses. Into a wilderness. You can see a better team build, I can see a better team build. Why the Sapphire Guard doesn't have Rangers or Scouts is a mystery to us both.
They're paladins, not tacticians.


-snip-
You see it as super-duper-obvious. That makes one of us.


I would just like to point out the vague resemblance between the yrthak rider and the Princess Mononoke in the Studio Ghibli film.
It's stronger evidence than that for being Redcloak's niece.


I can't think of one fandom that positively contributed to the object of its adoration.
You need to find some smaller fandoms.


We also know what gloves look like in the new art, because Belkar was wearing a pair (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1030.html). The gloves' cuffs flare out to fit over the ends of his sleeves, which we know from earlier strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) are baggy like the rider's rather than form-fitting like, say, Roy's or Lien's.
Because all gloves are shaped exactly the same.
(I'm doubtful that they're bare skin because it seems to be really freakin' cold out.)


Only if 1 > 0.
I'm pretty sure that 1*x=x, x+0=x, and 1>0 are three equations that are absolutely vital to making math work.

[Hamste]

We need the proof that 1+1=2.

[Darth Paul]

We need the proof that 1+1=2.

Sorry, I don't have that proof. That's generally called a statement or a fact. :smallyuk:

X+1=(X+1).

[8BitNinja]

Sorry, I don't have that proof. That's generally called a statement or a fact. :smallyuk:

X+1=(X+1).

You don't need to cite evidence for things you can plainly see

The sky is blue. How do I know? I looked up

[JessmanCA]

Sorry, I don't have that proof. That's generally called a statement or a fact. :smallyuk:

X+1=(X+1).

Depends on which set of numbers you're in. Not in some sets in modular arithmetic. Also not in binary.

Ex:

In integers modulo 2, 1+1=0

In binary, 1+1=10

[8BitNinja]

Depends on which set of numbers you're in. Not in some sets in modular arithmetic. Also not in binary.

Ex:

In integers modulo 2, 1+1=0

In binary, 1+1=10

1+1=11
2+2=fish
3+3=8
7+7=triangle

[jere7my]

Sorry, I don't have that proof. That's generally called a statement or a fact. :smallyuk:

X+1=(X+1).

It took Russell and Whitehead over 360 pages to prove 1+1=2 without loops or contradictions. In a system in which paradoxes are possible, that is no small feat.

http://www.storyofmathematics.com/20th_russell.html

[Quibblicious]

I was a math minor and I can verify this with the following proof:

3 < 4 < 5

Actual math!!

Technically, that's an axiom.

But who am I to nitpick...

Q

[Quibblicious]

True. In the space of this comic, though, that would be highly confusing. (Unless that's what Varsuuvius is. Than it'd make sense.)

Roy's been there and done that...

Q

[Quibblicious]

But the original quantity was not 3. Nor was it 4. It was "at least 3 or 4".

A quantity that is at least 3 or 4 is not necessarily less than 5.

Proof by example. 6 is at least 3 or 4. 6 is not less than 5.

D&D3.5 showed us that we are not limited to whole numbers.

Arise, ye of several classes, and claim your half levels!

Q, N.76 level Bard.

[Darth Paul]

It took Russell and Whitehead over 360 pages to prove 1+1=2 without loops or contradictions. In a system in which paradoxes are possible, that is no small feat.

http://www.storyofmathematics.com/20th_russell.html

And since Russell & Whitehead proved it, I consider it's sufficiently proven. Thanks, guys!

@8BitNinja- Where I am right now, the sky is very very dark grey, tending towards purplish-black in some areas, with tiny points of light in it, some of them moving, some white, others multicolored. There are lighter grey areas which may be clouds. Also, there is a large, glowing object visible, which might be the Earth's Moon, but might be an artificial object placed there to deceive me. I have no way to positively prove either contention.

"Sky is blue, grass is green" is more subjective than 1+1=2.

[Quibblicious]

You don't need to cite evidence for things you can plainly see

The sky is blue. How do I know? I looked up

Don't knock skepticism. Unless you're skeptical of skepticism.

Q

[8BitNinja]

D&D3.5 showed us that we are not limited to whole numbers.

Arise, ye of several classes, and claim your half levels!

Q, N.76 level Bard.

Good thing I'm pure pally

[GM_3826]

Roy's been there and done that...

Q

Roy's been there and done that while wearing a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. So technically he WAS a girl.

Basically, every girl in this comic (besides maybe a few elves) has an hourglass figure for a reason.

[GalenDev]

Am I the only one who really enjoys every little bit of screentime Lien gets? O-chul's badass incarnate, sure, but Lien just has this... vibe about her that I really enjoy seeing. She's an unusually chill Paladin with a really unique specialty and set of weapons. She's also rather tactical.

Call me crazy, but when Belkar gets shuffled out of the Order (by pre-ordained death), I'd love it if Lien were his replacement. I feel like she's quirky enough to fit in.

[Liquor Box]

Hm, even if they dont have paladin mounts, why not purchase a mount before travelling through the mountains (even detouring to find a stable would be more practical than walking). Given the terrain type and their armour, won't they be travelling at a snail pace without mounts.

Aren't they approaching a pole? If so dogs and sled would be more suitable than horses.

[Shining Wrath]

You don't need to cite evidence for things you can plainly see

The sky is blue. How do I know? I looked up

Unless you're a member of a culture that doesn't have a word for blue, and therefore have trouble perceiving it.

The Guardian, but I've seen it elsewherel (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2976405/Could-ancestors-blue-Ancient-civilisations-didn-t-perceive-colour-didn-t-word-say-scientists.html)

[Themrys]

Or he's a transgender man.

That's got to be the most creative excuse for defaulting to male that I have ever seen.

The chance that a person of unknown sex is female is roughly 50%. The chance that a person of unknown sex belongs to the female sex but identifies with the male gender role (and does not just reject the female gender role) is ... I don't know, 1% or what.


@Shining Wrath: The sky still looks blue to those people. They cannot name the colour, and may not pay much attention to how it differs from a blueish green, or what, but they still perceive it the same. (unless science has now found that there are actually not only people who are red-green blind, but that there is also a thing like blue-blindness)

[martianmister]

That's got to be the most creative excuse for defaulting to male that I have ever seen.
:smallannoyed:
Panel 21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)

[Liquor Box]

That's got to be the most creative excuse for defaulting to male that I have ever seen.

The chance that a person of unknown sex is female is roughly 50%. The chance that a person of unknown sex belongs to the female sex but identifies with the male gender role (and does not just reject the female gender role) is ... I don't know, 1% or what.



Those percentages assume we know nothing about the person though. Roughly 50% of the total population is female. But (in the real world) only a relatively small percentage of soldiers are female, but a relatively large percentage of pre-school teachers are. So if we have some clues about the characteristics of the rider it is not unreasonable to default to a gender.

[Dilvish]

I don't understand why anyone character would use a crossbow except when they don't have proficiency for bows. Once you get multiple attacks per round which can be used with long or short bows then crossbows, other than the repeating type, are pretty much a waste of time since they can only fire at best once per round. I suppose the Sapphire guard aren't used to dealing with aerial attackers that they can't deal with using melee attacks. Especially likely since only one of them seems to even have a ranged weapon.

Lien may have a crossbow because she is an aquatic paladin. While the 3.5 DMG has all types of bows working equally well underwater, I remember from somewhere that crossbows were the better ranged weapon underwater (another game system?). Maybe I'm just thinking of spear guns.

I assumed Lien had a spear gun or a harpoon before the paladins mentioned crossbow bolts.

[GM_3826]

Those percentages assume we know nothing about the person though. Roughly 50% of the total population is female. But (in the real world) only a relatively small percentage of soldiers are female, but a relatively large percentage of pre-school teachers are. So if we have some clues about the characteristics of the rider it is not unreasonable to default to a gender.

That brings us back to our original point, though, namely the fact that at this point the only real clue we have is the fact that said character has a feminine figure. In real life, soldiers are most commonly male, but there's only one female in OOTS that has taken up a non-combat role. In other words, it is much more reasonable in this situation to default to female.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We need the proof that 1+1=2.
By the definition of 2, 1+1=2. QED


Call me crazy, but when Belkar gets shuffled out of the Order (by pre-ordained death), I'd love it if Lien were his replacement. I feel like she's quirky enough to fit in.
She doesn't cause as many dramatic problems, though. Lien's no Miko.


...there's only one female in OOTS that has taken up a non-combat role.
Bandana and a good portion of her crew, Celia, the Empress of Blood, Julia Greenhilt, Sara Greenhilt, possibly Inkyrius and/or Aardinarius depending on their genders and if they use their respective arts for combat...and that's just off the top of my head.
OotS has a lot of characcters, male and female. Watch those generalizations.

(And no, I'm not picking nits. You claimed that the cast of OotS is so heavily armed that only one woman wasn't a warrior of some kind.)

[Liquor Box]

That brings us back to our original point, though, namely the fact that at this point the only real clue we have is the fact that said character has a feminine figure. In real life, soldiers are most commonly male, but there's only one female in OOTS that has taken up a non-combat role. In other words, it is much more reasonable in this situation to default to female.

I agree. I was using soldiers as a (real life) example, nothing more. I understand that it is widely accepted that the rider is female based on the drawing, although personally I cannot see anything about her that shows that. I do think what is drawn on the end of her legs looks more like footwear than fee though.

[8BitNinja]

That's got to be the most creative excuse for defaulting to male that I have ever seen.

In the English language, if a gender of a noun is unknown, you default to male. This is generally used when talking about a group of people, or an occupation.

For example:

The janitor cleans the floors.

He cleans the floors

[JoeyTheNeko]

once again. o-chul shows he has the heart and soul of a true paladin.

[KorvinStarmast]

Rich is a story-teller, not a DM. It will do exactly as much damage as is necessary for the story. A) I am aware of how Rich does this comic and B) newsflash, a lot of the best DMs are also very good story tellers.

Since the normal speculation was running amok (boobs, for example) I thought I'd toss in a bit of it.
What's the problem you have with that?
GalenDev
Am I the only one who really enjoys every little bit of screentime Lien gets? O-chul's badass incarnate, sure, but Lien just has this... vibe about her that I really enjoy seeing. She's an unusually chill Paladin with a really unique specialty and set of weapons. She's also rather tactical.

Call me crazy, but when Belkar gets shuffled out of the Order (by pre-ordained death), I'd love it if Lien were his replacement. I feel like she's quirky enough to fit in. That would be cool, and I get the same "rule of cool" vibe from Lien. Her coolness owes a debt, I think, to how uncool Miko was.

[8BitNinja]

Rich is a story-teller, not a DM. It will do exactly as much damage as is necessary for the story.

Why not both?

[Quibblicious]

Roy's been there and done that while wearing a Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity. So technically he WAS a girl.

Basically, every girl in this comic (besides maybe a few elves) has an hourglass figure for a reason.

I'm just saying that in a fantasy world, transgender is not surgical -- it's genetic. You can't get more transgender than that.

Q

[KillingAScarab]

In the English language, if a gender of a noun is unknown, you default to male. This is generally used when talking about a group of people, or an occupation.

For example:

The janitor cleans the floors.

He cleans the floorsNot a rule I'm familiar with, nor is it one I am going to follow. For now, I'm comfortable to refer to the character as the yrthak rider or with gender neutral pronouns. The latter only requires it or they. The former is sufficiently precise until additional yrthak riders appear, even if it doesn't fit into a Beatles song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paperback_Writer) as well as I would like.

[jere7my]

I agree. I was using soldiers as a (real life) example, nothing more. I understand that it is widely accepted that the rider is female based on the drawing, although personally I cannot see anything about her that shows that.

Panel 5, there is a bump occluding her upper right arm that is either a boob or an unfortunately placed goiter.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1034.html

[GM_3826]

Bandana and a good portion of her crew, Celia, the Empress of Blood, Julia Greenhilt, Sara Greenhilt, possibly Inkyrius and/or Aardinarius depending on their genders and if they use their respective arts for combat...and that's just off the top of my head.
OotS has a lot of characcters, male and female. Watch those generalizations.

(And no, I'm not picking nits. You claimed that the cast of OotS is so heavily armed that only one woman wasn't a warrior of some kind.)

It was mostly for the sake of a point. It's true that not every woman in OOTS is effective in combat, but that was besides the point I was making; that soldier is a job that is much more common for women in OOTS than elsewhere,

Since you kind of roped me into this argument, I am going to rebut, though:

Bandana and a good portion of her crew are pirates. It comes with the job.

The Empress of Blood is a dragon. (An obese dragon who likely is much weaker than most dragons, but still.)

Julia Greenhilt is a wizard-in-training, so while they're not effective in combat yet they might be one day.

Sara Greenhilt is dead and has been for a long time.

And, as you pointed out, we cannot be sure that Inkyrius and Aardinarius are even female.

[warmachine]

They're paladins, not tacticians [which is why they're bad at team diversity and dealing with flying creatures].

I think that should be standard wisdom about why paladins make stupid mistakes, especially those in elite military divisions: they're paladins.

[Liquor Box]

It was mostly for the sake of a point. It's true that not every woman in OOTS is effective in combat, but that was besides the point I was making; that soldier is a job that is much more common for women in OOTS than elsewhere,

Since you kind of roped me into this argument, I am going to rebut, though:

Bandana and a good portion of her crew are pirates. It comes with the job.

The Empress of Blood is a dragon. (An obese dragon who likely is much weaker than most dragons, but still.)

Julia Greenhilt is a wizard-in-training, so while they're not effective in combat yet they might be one day.

Sara Greenhilt is dead and has been for a long time.

And, as you pointed out, we cannot be sure that Inkyrius and Aardinarius are even female.

There are lots. Not just Celia, but all the other Dryads from that dungeon. The well dressed ladies in the following strip:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html

Of course most more prominent named charactors would generally have class levels in a comic like OOTS. And any character with class levels will be able to fight.

To have a look at more soldier like mooks, you can look at the CPPD or the Azure City army (or indeed the goblin army):
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0339.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html

Anyway, that's all an aside. As alreayd noted, I just raised soldiers as a real world example where one gender outrepresents the other - I didn't mean to apply it to the rider because she is probably not actually a soldier anyway.

[Shining Wrath]

That's got to be the most creative excuse for defaulting to male that I have ever seen.

The chance that a person of unknown sex is female is roughly 50%. The chance that a person of unknown sex belongs to the female sex but identifies with the male gender role (and does not just reject the female gender role) is ... I don't know, 1% or what.


@Shining Wrath: The sky still looks blue to those people. They cannot name the colour, and may not pay much attention to how it differs from a blueish green, or what, but they still perceive it the same. (unless science has now found that there are actually not only people who are red-green blind, but that there is also a thing like blue-blindness)

It must be my aging eyes, but I can't see any boobs on that rider, transgender or otherwise.

If you read the article, you find that the people without a word for blue have great difficulty in distinguishing a blue square among a set of green ones, but can readily distinguish shades of green. A person in a culture without a word for blue thinks of the sky probably as green. This entire line of inquiry was kicked off by Homer's use of the phrase "wine dark sea (http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/20/science/homer-s-sea-wine-dark.html)" - ever see a wine the color of the Aegean? And not "this one wine", but generic wine.

[KorvinStarmast]

It must be my aging eyes, but I can't see any boobs on that rider, transgender or otherwise.

If you read the article, you find that the people without a word for blue have great difficulty in distinguishing a blue square among a set of green ones, but can readily distinguish shades of green. A person in a culture without a word for blue thinks of the sky probably as green. This entire line of inquiry was kicked off by Homer's use of the phrase "wine dark sea (http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/20/science/homer-s-sea-wine-dark.html)" - ever see a wine the color of the Aegean? And not "this one wine", but generic wine.


... high dust content in the atmosphere gives a dark red sunset, and its reflection in a dark sea can give a ''color and texture very close to that of mavrodaphne.'' He recalled seeing this phenomenon off Maine recently when the sky carried dust from the far away eruption of Mount St. Helens. And dusty skies, he added, indicate slow- moving winds and, therefore, stable weather conditions. I've seen the sea turn that color near sunset in the Mediterranean. It's not that common, but it's neat when you see it. So's the green flash.

[Bobblit]

You're not shooting. In lieu of a plan, you should keep shouting.

I find this sentence extremely hilarious, and I'm not sure why. :smallconfused: :smallbiggrin:

[8BitNinja]

Not a rule I'm familiar with, nor is it one I am going to follow. For now, I'm comfortable to refer to the character as the yrthak rider or with gender neutral pronouns. The latter only requires it or they. The former is sufficiently precise until additional yrthak riders appear, even if it doesn't fit into a Beatles song (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paperback_Writer) as well as I would like.

It implies an inanimate object

They implies a plural

[jere7my]

It implies an inanimate object

They implies a plural

Singular they has been in use since the 14th century. Its acceptability depends entirely on your audience and which style guide you use.

[8BitNinja]

Singular they has been in use since the 14th century. Its acceptability depends entirely on your audience and which style guide you use.
So this:
"In order to exit the parking garage, the driver must have the ticket that he received upon entry. He must then insert the card into the slot, whereupon the amount due will be displayed."

Works just as well as this?:
"In order to exit the parking garage, the driver must have the ticket that they received upon entry. They must then insert the card into the slot, whereupon the amount due will be displayed."

This seems wrong, since the oldest and most used form of they is "used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified." (Mirriam-Webster)

Also, on a side note, I never knew I would get int a grammar argument on a forum thread about a D&D webcomic

[Keltest]

So this:
"In order to exit the parking garage, the driver must have the ticket that he received upon entry. He must then insert the card into the slot, whereupon the amount due will be displayed."

Works just as well as this?:
"In order to exit the parking garage, the driver must have the ticket that they received upon entry. They must then insert the card into the slot, whereupon the amount due will be displayed."

This seems wrong, since the oldest and most used form of they is "used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified." (Mirriam-Webster)

Also, on a side note, I never knew I would get int a grammar argument on a forum thread about a D&D webcomic

yes, it does work just as well.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, on a side note, I never knew I would get int a grammar argument on a forum thread about a D&D webcomic
Visited many D&D webcomic boards lately? About half our threads end up in semantic arguments. The rest wander off on random, unpredictable tangents.

[Quibblicious]

yes, it does work just as well.

Depends upon the definition of "well" :smallsmile:

I'm a little old school; add in a minor in English and I get pedantic over specifics of grammar at times.

Q

[8BitNinja]

Depends upon the definition of "well" :smallsmile:

The hole full of water well

[aurilee]

*goes to thread to discuss how cool O-Chul and Lien are*

*finds a debate about grammar and boobs*

For the record, I can see the bulge that people identify as a boob. It looks very similar to how Lien is drawn in her armour, so I'm inclined to agree that the rider is female.

IMO pronouns are incredibly ill-defined in the English language and can basically be used however you want, so long as you don't knowingly offend the person you're referring to.

*breathes*

Now can we talk about how cool it is that Lien has a crossbow and how awesome O-Chul's punchline is?

Also I'm sad that O-Chul doesn't have a mount...maybe he'll gain a few levels in this adventure and we can see him get one. :smallsmile:

[rodneyAnonymous]

I would just like to point out the vague resemblance between the yrthak rider and the Princess Mononoke in the Studio Ghibli film.

I thought of Hiccup's mom in How to Train Your Dragon 2.

[Shining Wrath]

I believe the singular "they" has recently been approved for use by some style guides, IIRC.

[KorvinStarmast]

finds a debate about grammar and boobs That's a step up from a lot of internet discussion, the inclusion of grammar being the upgrade.
Also I'm sad that O-Chul doesn't have a mount
Question: how can O-Choul figure out a way to make the yrthak his mount?

That would be so cool, for O-Choul!

[ChillerInstinct]

Not going to lie, I only JUST saw the supposed mammary gland in question. But now that I do, yeah, it looks fairly similar to how Lien's are shown.

Hmm... possibly female, possibly green-skinned humanoid/goblin with the ability to tame a creature, and willing to attack Lawful Good paladins on sight... wonder if we're looking at a Green Hag who used Mimicry to convince the yrthak to let her ride it (or, failing that, has Druid/Shaman class levels)? They also have Blind Fight, which might explain the odd choice of headgear (I mean, how do you see out of that thing?).

Then again, from what I gather, this is the last place I'd expect to see one, since their preferred domain is temperate and marshy, a pretty far cry from being near the North Pole.

Of course I'm really just skimming D&D wikis and trying to find anything that could possibly match, so I'm probably WAAAAAY off the mark.

[8BitNinja]

*goes to thread to discuss how cool O-Chul and Lien are*

*finds a debate about grammar and boobs*

Yeaaaaah, sorry bout that

[Rogan]

[...] and willing to attack Lawful Good paladins on sight... [...]

To be fair, we do not know if the rider is aware they are LG Paladins. He could attack them asuming they would be CE Barbarians. Or something like that.
Perhaps he trys to defend his homeland vs any intruder.
Or he was tricked, thinking they would be Evil and dangerous.
Or he confuses them with their evil twins. Oh right... Sorry, wrong Char... :elan:

Whatever... I hope we will find out WHY the rider attacks. In my oppinion, its at least as interesting as his identity.

(Everyone thinking the rider is female, pls change to the approtiate pronouns mentaly)

[Gnoman]

If you read the article, you find that the people without a word for blue have great difficulty in distinguishing a blue square among a set of green ones, but can readily distinguish shades of green. A person in a culture without a word for blue thinks of the sky probably as green. This entire line of inquiry was kicked off by Homer's use of the phrase "wine dark sea (http://www.nytimes.com/1983/12/20/science/homer-s-sea-wine-dark.html)" - ever see a wine the color of the Aegean? And not "this one wine", but generic wine.

I've done a little bit of research on this. The cited Himba color study does not seem to appear in any published work outside of the BBC documentary that serves as a source for the article you linked, and other studies with the same culture using colored tiles have failed to show any trace of the claimed effect.

[Shining Wrath]

I've done a little bit of research on this. The cited Himba color study does not seem to appear in any published work outside of the BBC documentary that serves as a source for the article you linked, and other studies with the same culture using colored tiles have failed to show any trace of the claimed effect.

Interesting. The BBC normally is a little more careful of their reputation.

[8BitNinja]

Or he confuses them with their evil twins. Oh right... Sorry, wrong Char... :elan:

:thog: dun dun DUN!

[Quibblicious]

yes, it does work just as well.


:thog: dun dun DUN!

Well played, Paladin. Well played.

Q

[8BitNinja]

Well played, Paladin. Well played.

Q

Thank you bard, and sorry for taking your job right there

[Quibblicious]

Thank you bard, and sorry for taking your job right there

No worries. The best melodies are carried by more than one voice.

Q

[Mr.Bigglesworth]

By no means am I a 3.5 expert, but I checked the SRD and it says you get Smite and a mount at 5th level , and we've seen O'Chul smite before (strip 655, I can't post links) .

[Mr.Bigglesworth]

By no means am I a 3.5 expert, but I checked the SRD and it says you get Smite and a mount at 5th level , and we've seen O'Chul smite before (strip 655, I can't post links) .

I should read closer , that's smite 2/day. I told u I wasn't an expert

[8BitNinja]

No worries. The best melodies are carried by more than one voice.

Q

Normally, we organize a choir, but we usually get a cleric to help out with that

[Peelee]

Xykon doesn't have a familiar. Just having access to a class feature doesn't mean you need to use it.

Attention to detail is what truly separates the great from the gold. Dragon, that is.

A sorcerer's Familiar class feature states that one can obtain a familiar, meaning, in game terms, that it is optional (let's ignore that Xykon could be using an ACF, such as Metamagic Specialist, and focus on the idea of a pure, core-only class).

The paladin, however, gains a special mount. This is not optional; it just happens. Prior to O-Chul stating otherwise, the argument could be made that he has a mount, but simply does not wish to use it; however, his statement that he had no access to this class feature necessitates fewer than five levels of paladin.

My fine goldie, your point was well-made, but incorrect.

[Quibblicious]

Thank you bard, and sorry for taking your job right there


Normally, we organize a choir, but we usually get a cleric to help out with that

And that's where things start to go off. Clerics are well and good, but they are lacking in the music department.

Q

[goodpeople25]

Attention to detail is what truly separates the great from the gold. Dragon, that is.

A sorcerer's Familiar class feature states that one can obtain a familiar, meaning, in game terms, that it is optional (let's ignore that Xykon could be using an ACF, such as Metamagic Specialist, and focus on the idea of a pure, core-only class).

The paladin, however, gains a special mount. This is not optional; it just happens. Prior to O-Chul stating otherwise, the argument could be made that he has a mount, but simply does not wish to use it; however, his statement that he had no access to this class feature necessitates fewer than five levels of paladin.

My fine goldie, your point was well-made, but incorrect.
Huh? I've heard this mentioned before, but i still can't see it. All i got from it is that if he had a celestial pegasus or anything that would automatically solve their problems he would have already called it. Looking back, i get how it does imply he dosen't have a mount all, and it's definitely a better case than him just not using one like before, but i don't see how it is confirmation. I guess it just didn't stick out to me.

[Baphomet]

This is the rider's hand color, picked out in photoshop:
████████
████████
████████
Our perception of a color is easily altered by its surrounding colors. When isolated, this color looks well within the normal range for human skin colors in this comic. Or, y'know, elven, dwarven, gnomish, etc.

[Red XIV]

Regarding paladin mounts, are they required to take a mount at level 5? I mean, rangers get an animal companion at level 4, but Belkar was much higher than that when he finally got one. So O-Chul's lack of a mount doesn't necessarily prove he's got less than 5 paladin levels. He might have simply opted not to use that class feature for whatever reason.

[Centaur]

All i got from it is that if he had a celestial pegasus or anything that would automatically solve their problems he would have already called it.

No.

Lien says she does not suppose that the following three-way conjunction is true: (A) O-Chul went and got a mount (B) without telling Lien; and further (C) that mount is (C1) a super-fast celestial pegasus, (C2) something or (C1 & C2) both.

O-Chul answers that the following implication is true: *if* he had, *then* they would already have been riding it.

Now we can infer several things from that conversation.

* We observe that the consequent of O-Chul’s implication is false: we have never seen them riding O-Chul’s mount, and the use of perfect continuous subjunctive “would have been riding” implies a certain prolongedness that it wouldn’t all happen off-panel.

* An implication is only true if its antecedent is false *or* its consequent is true. Therefore, the antecedent is false (he hasn’t).

* In the context of Lien’s not-supposition, there would now be three possibilities: (¬A) he has not gone and gotten a mount; (A & ¬B) he has gone and gotten a mount but informed Lien about that; (A & B & ¬(C1 ∨ C2)) he has gone and gotten a mount, has not informed Lien, and that mount is neither a super-fast celestial pegasus nor something.

* The third possibility is eliminated because of grammatical form. To emphasize that the nature of his mount was different, O-Chul would have said “If it were”.

* If O-Chul has gotten a mount and told Lien and she has forgotten, he would probably call the mount as soon as he was reminded of it.

Therefore, O-Chul has not gotten a mount yet.

[davidbofinger]

Attention to detail [...]

Prior to O-Chul stating otherwise, the argument could be made that he has a mount, but simply does not wish to use it; however, his statement that he had no access to this class feature necessitates fewer than five levels of paladin.

Technically, and in a spirit of attention to detail, O-Chul didn't say he didn't have a mount, he just said he didn't have "a superfast celestial pegasus or something". It's fairly clear by implication that he doesn't have anything useful in their current environment. I guess probably he doesn't have anything. But unless the Giant spoke and I missed it there's still a chance in principle that he has, say, a giant tropical ape that can carry him while brachiating. (Though that doesn't sound a good fit for his personality.)

He's supposed to have picked up a couple of levels while a prisoner of Xykon, is that right? If he isn't Level 5 paladin now that suggests either his paladin level before that was no higher than 2 or he didn't take those levels in paladin. Maybe he was thinking, "The sapphire guard is destroyed, The oath I swore to defend the gate no longer applies, I guess my paladin days are over, time to transition back to being a fighter." People talk about O-Chul as the ultimate paladin but perhaps it makes more sense to say he's the ultimate survivor who happens to have spent some time as a paladin.

[Keltest]

Technically, and in a spirit of attention to detail, O-Chul didn't say he didn't have a mount, he just said he didn't have "a superfast celestial pegasus or something". It's fairly clear by implication that he doesn't have anything useful in their current environment. I guess probably he doesn't have anything. But unless the Giant spoke and I missed it there's still a chance in principle that he has, say, a giant tropical ape that can carry him while brachiating. (Though that doesn't sound a good fit for his personality.)

He's supposed to have picked up a couple of levels while a prisoner of Xykon, is that right? If he isn't Level 5 paladin now that suggests either his paladin level before that was no higher than 2 or he didn't take those levels in paladin. Maybe he was thinking, "The sapphire guard is destroyed, The oath I swore to defend the gate no longer applies, I guess my paladin days are over, time to transition back to being a fighter." People talk about O-Chul as the ultimate paladin but perhaps it makes more sense to say he's the ultimate survivor who happens to have spent some time as a paladin.

Lien, however, seems to be under the impression that O-chul doesn't have a paladin mount at all, or at least did not prior to the attack on Azure City.

[Peelee]

Regarding paladin mounts, are they required to take a mount at level 5? I mean, rangers get an animal companion at level 4, but Belkar was much higher than that when he finally got one. So O-Chul's lack of a mount doesn't necessarily prove he's got less than 5 paladin levels. He might have simply opted not to use that class feature for whatever reason.

This is the best argument against me, honestly, and i really have no rebuttal.

[Skull the Troll]

Or he's a transgender man.

If its a transgender anything the proper pronoun is whatever they want it to be.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is the best argument against me, honestly, and i really have no rebuttal. It's interesting how the special steed has evolved over time. It appears that there is a choice involved in every edition.

Original paladin(Greyhawk): The paladin may at any time he chooses obtain a horse ... may never obtain a second within ten years of the first, so if one is killed it is not automatically replaced. The paladin's horse is a Heavy, with Armor Class 5, Moves 18", has 5+1 Hit Dice, and high intelligence.
1e: At 4th level - or at any time thereafter ... may call for his warhorse ... (5d8 plus 5 hit points), AC 5, and the speed of a medium warhorse (18") ... only one such animal is available every ten years
2e: ... may call for his war horse upon reaching 4th level, or anytime thereafter ... steed need not be a horse ... a very special animal, bonded by fate to the warrior. The paladin does not really "call" the animal, nor does the horse instantly appear in front of him. Rather, the character must find his war horse in some memorable way, most frequently by a specific quest
3.5: ... summons at 5th level something like a heavy war horse, YMMV, once per day, it can be something like a large shark, or other suitable animal...
4e: no idea
5e: Uses 2d level spell "Find steed" to summon a spirit in the form of a mount


What if that yrthak is the special 'paladin steed' of a goliath paladin of some sort who is defending X due to an oath, shrine, whatever? :smalleek:

What if, in a nod to 2e, that yrthak is fated to become O-Chul's paladin mount! :smalleek:

[aurilee]

This is the rider's hand color, picked out in photoshop:
████████
████████
████████
Our perception of a color is easily altered by its surrounding colors. When isolated, this color looks well within the normal range for human skin colors in this comic. Or, y'know, elven, dwarven, gnomish, etc.

The boots are very much goblinoid though, which is why hobgoblin or bugbear is a likely choice for race. Probably bugbear since that's not really yellow enough for hobgoblin.

[F.Harr]

So we've gone from "we should escape" effortlessly to "we should keep shooting until we figure that escape thing out".

HA! I love it!

[8BitNinja]

Original paladin(Greyhawk): The paladin may at any time he chooses obtain a horse ... may never obtain a second within ten years of the first, so if one is killed it is not automatically replaced. The paladin's horse is a Heavy, with Armor Class 5, Moves 18", has 5+1 Hit Dice, and high intelligence.
1e: At 4th level - or at any time thereafter ... may call for his warhorse ... (5d8 plus 5 hit points), AC 5, and the speed of a medium warhorse (18") ... only one such animal is available every ten years
2e: ... may call for his war horse upon reaching 4th level, or anytime thereafter ... steed need not be a horse ... a very special animal, bonded by fate to the warrior. The paladin does not really "call" the animal, nor does the horse instantly appear in front of him. Rather, the character must find his war horse in some memorable way, most frequently by a specific quest
3.5: ... summons at 5th level something like a heavy war horse, YMMV, once per day, it can be something like a large shark, or other suitable animal...
4e: no idea
5e: Uses 2d level spell "Find steed" to summon a spirit in the form of a mount


What if that yrthak is the special 'paladin steed' of a goliath paladin of some sort who is defending X due to an oath, shrine, whatever? :smalleek:

What if, in a nod to 2e, that yrthak is fated to become O-Chul's paladin mount! :smalleek:

How do you get a mount in World of Warcraft?

That's your answer

[GM_3826]

If its a transgender anything the proper pronoun is whatever they want it to be.

Psst. They were arguing that a character with a feminine figure was male. They could choose to be neither male or female, or both, but that was irrelevant to this conversation.

[8BitNinja]

Psst. They were arguing that a character with a feminine figure was male. They could choose to be neither male or female, or both, but that was irrelevant to this conversation.

Going back to arguing over semantics?

[GM_3826]

Going back to arguing over semantics?

They started it, really. Plus, I didn't realize the conversation had ended. If it did, excuse me.

[8BitNinja]

They started it, really. Plus, I didn't realize the conversation had ended. If it did, excuse me.

Okay, I'm sorry

I was the one who started the semantics arguing on this thread

By the way everyone, it's he, not they :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

By the way everyone, it's he, not they :smalltongue:

That's exactly what they want you to think.

[KorvinStarmast]

How do you get a mount in World of Warcraft?
Couldn't tell you, as I threw up my hands in disgust at that game for two reasons. (I got it when it first came out, day 1 casualty of overcrowded servers).
The thrown weapons were not intuitive and the lag, lag, lag crap on two different servers got me so pissed.
The FPS view occasionally triggers headaches in me related to something we used to call "simulator sickness" so I stopped and never looked back. Didn't miss it. My son played it for a few years until my wife decided that 15 bucks a month was stupid during one of her crusades against computer and video games.

[8BitNinja]

Couldn't tell you, as I threw up my hands in disgust at that game for two reasons. (I got it when it first came out, day 1 casualty of overcrowded servers).
The thrown weapons were not intuitive and the lag, lag, lag crap on two different servers got me so pissed.
The FPS view occasionally triggers headaches in me related to something we used to call "simulator sickness" so I stopped and never looked back. Didn't miss it. My son played it for a few years until my wife decided that 15 bucks a month was stupid during one of her crusades against computer and video games.

Not saying that your wife is right about attacking video games, but $15 a month is a lot

[Bulldog Psion]

The boots are very much goblinoid though, which is why hobgoblin or bugbear is a likely choice for race. Probably bugbear since that's not really yellow enough for hobgoblin.

Agreed, the boots are 100% goblinoid. I'd suggest there's a chance someone is wearing them as a disguise, but I doubt a human foot could even squeeze into them, without a polymorph. And who the heck would be wearing fake footgear anyway? :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

And who the heck would be wearing fake footgear anyway? :smallbiggrin:

So we can rule out a cleric of Saint Hubbins, then?

[8BitNinja]

So we can rule out a cleric of Saint Hubbins, then?

There is a cleric of everything, so maybe he is here, but just on the inside.

The cleric of Saint Hubbins is on the inside, and really small

[GreatWyrmGold]

It was mostly for the sake of a point. It's true that not every woman in OOTS is effective in combat, but that was besides the point I was making; that soldier is a job that is much more common for women in OOTS than elsewhere,
Since you kind of roped me into this argument, I am going to rebut, though:
Bandana and a good portion of her crew are pirates. It comes with the job.
The Empress of Blood is a dragon. (An obese dragon who likely is much weaker than most dragons, but still.)
Julia Greenhilt is a wizard-in-training, so while they're not effective in combat yet they might be one day.
Sara Greenhilt is dead and has been for a long time.
And, as you pointed out, we cannot be sure that Inkyrius and Aardinarius are even female.
Not everyone on a pirate ship fights. A good portion of the crew seems to be engineering-focused...which makes sense, for a complex machine that needs to fly thousands of miles, serviced only by the crew, in between jaunts to rest stops where the locals can actually fix it.
The Empress of Blood is too lazy to be likely to fight. Strictly speaking, she could, and she'd be better than the average 1st-level commoner at it...but the same is true of Lord Shojo, the senile venerable 14th-level aristocrat.
Not all wizards are combat-focused, any more than all drivers know how to operate tanks.
So what if Sara is dead? She's still a named character.


Hmm... possibly female, possibly green-skinned humanoid/goblin with the ability to tame a creature, and willing to attack Lawful Good paladins on sight... wonder if we're looking at a Green Hag who used Mimicry to convince the yrthak to let her ride it (or, failing that, has Druid/Shaman class levels)? They also have Blind Fight, which might explain the odd choice of headgear (I mean, how do you see out of that thing?).
Given the relative sizes of the (Huge) yrthak and the rider, I'm inclined to think the latter is Large. That would make an annis more likely. Bonus, they're native to cold marshes.


Attention to detail is what truly separates the great from the gold. Dragon, that is.
A sorcerer's Familiar class feature states that one can obtain a familiar, meaning, in game terms, that it is optional (let's ignore that Xykon could be using an ACF, such as Metamagic Specialist, and focus on the idea of a pure, core-only class).
The paladin, however, gains a special mount. This is not optional; it just happens. Prior to O-Chul stating otherwise, the argument could be made that he has a mount, but simply does not wish to use it; however, his statement that he had no access to this class feature necessitates fewer than five levels of paladin.
My fine goldie, your point was well-made, but incorrect.
I will grant that, by RAW, a sorcerer/wizard may choose to not have a familiar (and, for that matter, a druid/ranger may choose not to have an animal companion), while a paladin automatically gets a mount. However, I would call this a bit silly to actually have it play out that way in practice (either at the table or in a story). You shouldn't choose a horse to ride randomly even if they aren't sapient; with said sapience, the special mount is more like a friend or co-worker than a mere steed. RAW says you automatically get a celestial mount the instant you get your 10,000th experience point (assuming single-class paladin), but it seems reasonable to suggest one would need to take some time to select a proper mount.


This is the rider's hand color, picked out in photoshop:
████████
████████
████████
Our perception of a color is easily altered by its surrounding colors. When isolated, this color looks well within the normal range for human skin colors in this comic. Or, y'know, elven, dwarven, gnomish, etc.
Two other points.
1. Lighting also affects the color.
2. More relevant to my suspicions, I'd imagine that anyone without magical protection from cold would be wearing gloves, and that few with such protection would be bundled up so much.

[Peelee]

I will grant that, by RAW, a sorcerer/wizard may choose to not have a familiar (and, for that matter, a druid/ranger may choose not to have an animal companion), while a paladin automatically gets a mount. However, I would call this a bit silly to actually have it play out that way in practice (either at the table or in a story). You shouldn't choose a horse to ride randomly even if they aren't sapient; with said sapience, the special mount is more like a friend or co-worker than a mere steed. RAW says you automatically get a celestial mount the instant you get your 10,000th experience point (assuming single-class paladin), but it seems reasonable to suggest one would need to take some time to select a proper mount.

I take your point. I would argue that unless O-Chul gained his fifth level within the events of the comic, he would have had ample time to determine an appropriate mount (and, frankly, it would be silly to deny such a feature that offers only positive effects, with no potential downsides, even from a non-metagaming, purely character-based reasoning), if my argument had not already been fatally wounded by the whole "Belkar's animal companion" bit earlier.

[8BitNinja]

About the whole "all but _ amount of female characters have combat roles"

Everyone in D&D, including children, own a weapon and know how to fight. How else are there adventurers?

[Peelee]

Everyone in D&D, including children, own a weapon and know how to fight.

Note to self: 8BitNinja has not read Start of Darkness.

[KorvinStarmast]

@GreatWyrmGold: nice call on the Annis. I'll bet the over.

[Kish]

"How else are there adventurers" is just weird. It's like saying, "Everyone in the real world, including children, owns a plane and knows how to fly. How else are there pilots?"

[aurilee]

"How else are there adventurers" is just weird. It's like saying, "Everyone in the real world, including children, owns a plane and knows how to fly. How else are there pilots?"

I will second the "what a weird thing to say" comment.

Certainly all adventurers would know some sort of combat skills (even if they aren't very good). But what about all the people adventurers help? By necessity they can't know how to fight, at least not very well, otherwise they would never hire adventurers to clear the rats from their basement, venture into the forest to find their lost child, etc.

Unless somehow your comment was meant to mean "all PCs in D&D know how to fight", which makes a bit more sense.

[ChillerInstinct]

Given the relative sizes of the (Huge) yrthak and the rider, I'm inclined to think the latter is Large. That would make an annis more likely. Bonus, they're native to cold marshes.



Ooh, nice catch. They *also* have Blind Fight which addresses the same thought on the helmet that I had in regards to the possibility of it being a Green Hag as well.

There IS, however, one possible problem with this theory-- Annis have claws on their hands, and even if they're wearing gloves I can't help but feel that we'd be able to see the claws in Panel 5. Though on the OTHER hand (ba dum psh) they do have Disguise Self, and supposedly like to use that ability to hide their true form even while in combat, so it's entirely possible it's an annis that took a more humanoid form before attacking, just in case.

But yeah, Annis DOES look more likely than Green Hag right now, I have to admit.

[littlebum2002]

Though on the OTHER hand (ba dum psh) they do have Disguise Self, and supposedly like to use that ability to hide their true form even while in combat, so it's entirely possible it's an annis that took a more humanoid form before attacking, just in case.

If you're bringing Disguise Self into this, why still go with an annis? It could be ANY Large creature Disguising itself. Heck, it could be any creature at all using Polymorph.

[ChillerInstinct]

If you're bringing Disguise Self into this, why still go with an annis? It could be ANY Large creature Disguising itself. Heck, it could be any creature at all using Polymorph.

Also true. I hesitated bringing it up because, well, that's a huge can of worms, but figured, eh, full disclosure and all that.

[8BitNinja]

Note to self: 8BitNinja has not read Start of Darkness.

I have not, should I?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I have not, should I?

Honestly, yes. Not only is it an amazing and tragic story that is very much worth the purchase, but it also really helps when participating in a surprisingly large amount of discussions on these boards. And it's also got some pretty good background stuff.

[davidbofinger]

Unless you've got severe budget constraints it's worth buying all three prequel books. (You might get bonus material in the digital versions, can't remember.) But if you can only afford one then Start of Darkness is by far the most important.

[hamishspence]

Unless you've got severe budget constraints it's worth buying all three prequel books.

Three? Origin of PCs, Start of Darkness - as far as I know, that's it.

[littlebum2002]

I have not, should I?

Yes! Buy it in pdf (https://gumroad.com/l/ootssod), literally, right now. In my opinion it's the best piece of oots literature there is. You learn a whole lot about Redcloaks motivation and why he's at odds with Xykon at times.

Seriously, it's $12. All you need to do is eat PB&J sandwiches for like 2 lunches to pay for it.

[8BitNinja]

Yes! Buy it in pdf (https://gumroad.com/l/ootssod), literally, right now. In my opinion it's the best piece of oots literature there is. You learn a whole lot about Redcloaks motivation and why he's at odds with Xykon at times.

Seriously, it's $12. All you need to do is eat PB&J sandwiches for like 2 lunches to pay for it.

I'll check it out when I can

[Rogar Demonblud]

Three? Origin of PCs, Start of Darkness - as far as I know, that's it.

Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales. Not actually a prequel book, but still has some good bits (Greenhilt, Prince of Denmark being my favorite).

[Peelee]

Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales. Not actually a prequel book

Yeah, but the original commenter called all three books as prequels, and was corrected that there were only two prequels. Your post merely re-affirms what you're quoting.

[foobar1969]

Given the relative sizes of the (Huge) yrthak and the rider, I'm inclined to think the latter is Large. That would make an annis more likely. Bonus, they're native to cold marshes.

Yes, it's at least 8' tall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). Size comparison from the 2nd panel:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2zhmypx.jpg

[GrayGriffin]

Yes, it's at least 8' tall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). Size comparison from the 2nd panel:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2zhmypx.jpg

Man, this makes them look like they're sitting on an invisible wall side by side. For some reason it makes me imagine them eating lunch together as well.

[littlebum2002]

It's pretty funny that we're using Size to figure out the race of a character when there's a Medium size slyph in this strip

[Peelee]

It's pretty funny that we're using Size to figure out the race of a character when there's a Medium size slyph in this strip

Also Medium size goblins. Like, tons of them. A virtual army, one might say!

[goodpeople25]

Also Medium size goblins. Like, tons of them. A virtual army, one might say!
Sorry for picking nits but the main comic has tons of medium sized Goblins? Not sure I would call the goblins in the beginning a virtual army. I think there are more in the prequels (wouldn't really know for sure) and yeah i know hobgoblins are Goblinoids too but they are already Medium so the distinction seems moot.
But still nitpicking.

[Peelee]

Sorry for picking nits but the main comic has tons of medium sized Goblins? Not sure I would call the goblins in the beginning a virtual army. I think there are more in the prequels (wouldn't really know for sure) and yeah i know hobgoblins are Goblinoids too but they are already Medium so the distinction seems moot.
But still nitpicking.

Eh, point taken.

[8BitNinja]

It's pretty funny that we're using Size to figure out the race of a character when there's a Medium size slyph in this strip

Just find a fully shown stick figure, look up height in the D&D monster manual, and use pixel measurements, Game Theory style

[davidbofinger]

Yes, it's at least 8' tall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat). Size comparison from the 2nd panel:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2zhmypx.jpg

I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion in absolute confidence, since there aren't a lot of perspective cues to tell us the paladins and the yrthak are the same distance from the viewer. The best hint we have is that the yrthak is ensonifying the paladins while showing a profile but that's not really conclusive.

Another method is to use Panels 4 and 5 because they have an object in common which can be measured in each case. Unfortunately the object being measured is the fletching on a crossbow quarrel so the height estimation is very dodgy.

I tried measuring the neck-hip-knee-ankle and crown-neck-hip-knee-ankle distances of each, testing the technique on Roy and Belkar to check it gave a sensible answer. A compromise between the two methods gave something consistent with my vague memory of 2'11" for Belkar and an arbitrary guess of 6'2" for Roy.)

On this basis the yrthak pilot could be anywhere from 1.4 to 1.7 times the height of Lien. So he could be less than 8' but I'm guessing more.

But seriously, I'm measuring the fletching on a crossbow quarrel...

[martianmister]

Man, this makes them look like they're sitting on an invisible wall side by side. For some reason it makes me imagine them eating lunch together as well.

It's a date! :smallredface: