Just for giggles: lets take this Sage Answer completely serious

[Jowgen]

Let's all pretend that the following "official answer" that is presented in dragon mag 359 by Andy Collins is totally 100% solid RAW.


What special qualities are retained after death?
It's simplest to rule that a dead creature retains any special qualities that don't require activation, particularly those related to resistance or immunities or effects. A creature immune to Conjuration (Healing) spells in life, for example, is still immune to those when it is dead(so it can't benefit from raise dead). A creature with resistance to fire should be difficult to immolate, and a creature with DR 10/bludgeoning should be difficult to chop up with axes.

I see so many things broken about this, I don't know where to start. What horrors comes to mind for you when reading this? :smalltongue:

[Malimar]

First thing that comes to mind: a warforged with Improved Fortification can only be resurrected by reincarnate. Assuming a dead creature retains their feats, anyway.

For that matter, a warforged without Improved Fortification only has a 50% chance of being brought back by raise dead and the like.

[torrasque666]

First thing that comes to mind: a warforged with Improved Fortification can only be resurrected by reincarnate. Assuming a dead creature retains their feats, anyway.

For that matter, a warforged without Improved Fortification only has a 50% chance of being brought back by raise dead and the like.
Or a 5th level Warforged Juggernaut. Feats may be dubious, but it calls out class features.

[Telonius]

Elemental Endurance (Ex)
Jann can survive on the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire, or Water for up to 48 hours. Failure to return to the Material Plane before that time expires causes a janni to take 1 point of damage per additional hour spent on the elemental plane, until it dies or returns to the Material Plane.

So no worries for your dead Janni, just plane shift the body to one of the elemental planes, and they can survive! :smallbiggrin:

For a Medusa, hand-wave the "activation" part, and you could actually use the severed head like Perseus did in the myth.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Destroyed golems remain immune to magic, and colossi still project their antimagic field. That probably means you can cut a colossus into little bits, and use them to cover large areas in AMF. You can even use the shrapnel as sling ammunition, or something.

[Jowgen]

Per the SRD, special qualities are just special abilities that aren't special attacks; and can be either Ex, Su or Sp like all special abilities. As Ex (and in rare case Su), Feats qualify.

I thought of another piece of abuse when remembering a recend thread. Any creature with the touch of Golden Ice feat can be continuously chopped up to create endless ammount of dead parts that constantly give off said ravage.

[Coidzor]

Use severed limbs from fire resistant or immune creatures to sift through lava.

[Malimar]

Destroyed golems remain immune to magic, and colossi still project their antimagic field. That probably means you can cut a colossus into little bits, and use them to cover large areas in AMF. You can even use the shrapnel as sling ammunition, or something.

I dunno about this; by RAW, I think colossi project only one antimagic field of a specific size, no matter how many bits they're in.

[MisterKaws]

Get a string of flesh from every desirable creature and then use Craft(Basketweaving) to create a basket with a handle inside, then use it as the most broken shield ever.

[Telonius]

Destrachan Hide would probably be used in soundproofing rooms.

[Necroticplague]

The corpse of a fire elemental is still dangerous to beat on, as its Burn still works.

[ShurikVch]

a creature with DR 10/bludgeoning should be difficult to chop up with axes.Damn, those axes are so blunt! :smallbiggrin:

[zergling.exe]

Damn, those axes are so blunt! :smallbiggrin:

You seem to have failed your Knowledge check: DR/bludgeoning is overcome by bludgeoning weapons, like how DR/silver is overcome by silver weapons.

[FocusWolf413]

I thought of another piece of abuse when remembering a recend thread. Any creature with the touch of Golden Ice feat can be continuously chopped up to create endless ammount of dead parts that constantly give off said ravage.

I might be wrong here, but isn't desecrating the body of an Exalted person, like, super evil? I think cramming the body of a warrior-saint through a woodchipper kinda puts you on a fast track to being damned. It's definitely going to draw the ire of someone or something more powerful than you. Whether that leads to curses or bad luck or herpes, it's not going to be good.

[Gallowglass]

I might be wrong here, but isn't desecrating the body of an Exalted person, like, super evil? I think cramming the body of a warrior-saint through a woodchipper kinda puts you on a fast track to being damned. It's definitely going to draw the ire of someone or something more powerful than you. Whether that leads to curses or bad luck or herpes, it's not going to be good.

He just tripped and fell into the woodchipper. Honest.

[Coidzor]

I might be wrong here, but isn't desecrating the body of an Exalted person, like, super evil? I think cramming the body of a warrior-saint through a woodchipper kinda puts you on a fast track to being damned. It's definitely going to draw the ire of someone or something more powerful than you. Whether that leads to curses or bad luck or herpes, it's not going to be good.

Nah, gotta get those finger bones of St. Monkmus for reliquary holy symbols and the like from somewhere, after all.

[ShurikVch]

You seem to have failed your Knowledge check: DR/bludgeoning is overcome by bludgeoning weapons, like how DR/silver is overcome by silver weapons.No, actually I failed my check of Read (English)
(But still, I personally think it's much easier to dismember with bladed tool then with blunt one, DR or not)

[Gildedragon]

Nah, gotta get those finger bones of St. Monkmus for reliquary holy symbols and the like from somewhere, after all.
Also couldn't one just use the hair they shed?
St Fuzzymittens the Tibbit did cover his abbey in fur

[ExLibrisMortis]

I dunno about this; by RAW, I think colossi project only one antimagic field of a specific size, no matter how many bits they're in.
It generates a single antimagic field, which happens to include everything within 100' of the colossus. If you chop the colossus into pieces, you get a single antimagic field, that just happens to include everything within 100' of a piece of colossus.

If you cut a single iron colossus into one-pound chunks, you (effectively) get 350.000* antimagic fields with 100' range (the chunks are rustproof and (ex) immune to magic, as well). Considering that it's permanent, (ex), and only costs 1.000.000 gp (and 50.000 xp), that's pretty damn cheap.


*The body is constructed from 150.000 pounds of iron, but the whole thing weighs 350.000 pounds. I'm guessing all those magic inks and pigments add up.

[Urpriest]

Corpses have hit points, since they're objects. That means that as soon as a creature dies its Fast Healing reactivates, since it's active as long as it has at least one hit point.

This also means that when you destroy a Vampire's corpse in combat it turns into mist just as the Vampire would.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Corpses have hit points, since they're objects. That means that as soon as a creature dies its Fast Healing reactivates, since it's active as long as it has at least one hit point.
Although it would function to heal the object, not the creature. So while your corpse is in top-notch condition, nothing is dispelling the 'dead' status. Useful.

[Ger. Bessa]

Too bad you can't have corpses of undead since they're destroyed and not killed. The undead kiddo that reduces metamagic for necromancy would be even more interesting if you could just keep a piece of dead meat in your component pouch.

Could a Spellthief carry a collection of bones from slain monsters to steal their SLAs ? That would be classier than a lot of classic caster builds. Is that the skull of a mirror mephit ?

[Necroticplague]

Too bad you can't have corpses of undead since they're destroyed and not killed. The undead kiddo that reduces metamagic for necromancy would be even more interesting if you could just keep a piece of dead meat in your component pouch.

And where does it say "destroyed" means it doesn't leave a corpse?

Side note: the 'undead kiddo' is called a Slaymate.

For more possibilities.....Drowned have a really nasty aura. If you don't have to breath (and thus can't drown), carrying a piece of one with you to make everyone nearby drown is a pretty brutal tactic.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The corpse of a fire elemental is still dangerous to beat on, as its Burn still works.
Unfortunately, elementals don't leave corpses behind. Which makes the existence of the necromentals curious.

[A_S]

Make sure to bury your defeated colour out of space (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/colour-out-of-space) at least 300 feet deep, lest its corpse attract a bunch of bored, sad people who never leave.

[Inevitability]

Make sure to bury your defeated colour out of space (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/colour-out-of-space) at least 300 feet deep, lest its corpse attract a bunch of bored, sad people who never leave.

Burying? What are you, an Entomber? Fire is the answer to all corpse-related problems!

And before someone posts about some obscure fire-resistant undead, Searing spell.

[Telok]

I might be wrong here, but isn't desecrating the body of an Exalted person, like, super evil? I think cramming the body of a warrior-saint through a woodchipper kinda puts you on a fast track to being damned.

Dude, that's like, how they get sainted. Skinned alive, eyes pulled out, killed with wool combs (http://valkyriesupply.com/combs.html)... People get sainted for being super nice or dying in an extra gory manner. The wood chipper thing just puts them into the 'hardcore saint' category, it's like a martyr bonus or something.

[zergling.exe]

Dude, that's like, how they get sainted. Skinned alive, eyes pulled out, killed with wool combs (http://valkyriesupply.com/combs.html)... People get sainted for being super nice or dying in an extra gory manner. The wood chipper thing just puts them into the 'hardcore saint' category, it's like a martyr bonus or something.

But the person that does the desecrating is normally regarded as an incredibly terrible person, no?

[Inevitability]

But the person that does the desecrating is normally regarded as an incredibly terrible person, no?

Well, depends. The guy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Longinus) who stabbed Jesus after he died became a catholic saint, so...

[Sword-Geass]

Dude, that's like, how they get sainted. Skinned alive, eyes pulled out, killed with wool combs (http://valkyriesupply.com/combs.html)... People get sainted for being super nice or dying in an extra gory manner. The wood chipper thing just puts them into the 'hardcore saint' category, it's like a martyr bonus or something.

I never knew that an LA+2 template could be so painful to acquire... :smalleek:


Although when you consider that it's an exalted character you realize that it's probably grow used to it :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Make sure to bury your defeated colour out of space (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/colour-out-of-space) at least 300 feet deep, lest its corpse attract a bunch of bored, sad people who never leave.

I'm just imagining the effect of that sort of thing on the Blood War. Pockets of demons and devils, and a few other fiends that wandered over, just sitting around all sad.

Hmm, or trolling Sigil or the Harmonium with some.

[Telok]

But the person that does the desecrating is normally regarded as an incredibly terrible person, no?

But you're helping them! You're making them a better saint, or at least a more famous one.

[Gildedragon]

But you're helping them! You're making them a better saint, or at least a more famous one.

Increasing their fame isn't necessarily good. Buuuuut you know what is: spreading the saint's benefic influence and giving villages tools to defend themselves against evil (their thighbone, for example, functions as a holy disruption mace)

[Necroticplague]

But the person that does the desecrating is normally regarded as an incredibly terrible person, no?

I don't think there was any negative morality ascribed to the knight who killed Saint Guineford (except, perhaps, that he was a bit hasty).

[StreamOfTheSky]

While it's a very general statement and those will always be open for abuse with literal "RAW" silliness...

What's so wrong about what he said? Why should a Warforged that's 50% resilient to healing spells be easier to use healing spells on just because it's dead? Why does a creature's hide that's so thick and tough that it has DR 10 suddenly become as easy to cut through as butter when it's dead? Why should I be able to cremate the corpse of a fire elemental?

[MisterKaws]

While it's a very general statement and those will always be open for abuse with literal "RAW" silliness...

What's so wrong about what he said? Why should a Warforged that's 50% resilient to healing spells be easier to use healing spells on just because it's dead? Why does a creature's hide that's so thick and tough that it has DR 10 suddenly become as easy to cut through as butter when it's dead? Why should I be able to cremate the corpse of a fire elemental?

First: Elementals leave no corpses.

Second: The problem is the abuse it opens. Even if you kill the Tarrasque via Wish or Miracle, you can still open a barbeque shop and become rich.

[Coidzor]

Up until people start mutating into tarrasquekin, anyway.

[ATHATH]

While it's a very general statement and those will always be open for abuse with literal "RAW" silliness...

What's so wrong about what he said? Why should a Warforged that's 50% resilient to healing spells be easier to use healing spells on just because it's dead? Why does a creature's hide that's so thick and tough that it has DR 10 suddenly become as easy to cut through as butter when it's dead? Why should I be able to cremate the corpse of a fire elemental?
Yeah; I might want to house-rule (with exceptions (which can be created on the spot by the DM) to prevent broken or really weird stuff from happening) this rule into my future games.

[ATHATH]

Up until people start mutating into tarrasquekin, anyway.
Actually, that brings up a good point-

Won't the Tarrasque pieces regenerate back into a full Tarrasque while they're in the consumers' stomachs?

Won't this rule cause some weirdness with Undead (why did this corpse have the ability to paralyze people while inanimate but not while it's a Zombie?)?

[Khedrac]

Regenerating creatures are not a problem once dead:

Regeneration
Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.
Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.
Creatures with regeneration can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts. Severed parts die if they are not reattached.
Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.
An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.
A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.
Once the creature is dead it ceases to have a constitution score so the regeneration ceases. Specific trumps general so the general that dead creatures keep abilities is trumped by regeneration not working without a Con score.
If you are worried about all the little bits regenerating back into multiple Tarrasques then still no - "Severed parts die if they are not reattached".

Now Hydraburger still works - never let it get conscious.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm, or trolling Sigil or the Harmonium with some.Note that trolling Sigil is a particularly bad idea if you ever plan to visit. The Lady is a plot device...

[ExLibrisMortis]

While it's a very general statement and those will always be open for abuse with literal "RAW" silliness...

What's so wrong about what he said? Why should a Warforged that's 50% resilient to healing spells be easier to use healing spells on just because it's dead? Why does a creature's hide that's so thick and tough that it has DR 10 suddenly become as easy to cut through as butter when it's dead? Why should I be able to cremate the corpse of a fire elemental?
The general principle is not wrong, in the case of DR/adamantine or fire immunity; it's just that (as usual) the official ruling doesn't take into account the huge variety of abilities that are covered by this answer, and breaks things left and right. A very basic example is provided by auras: any kind of aura, as well as an angel's magic circle against evil and so on. As per the FAQ guidelines, carrying a single angel feather will now protect you completely from aligned summons and so on.

A more sensible answer would be to allow only natural special qualities to remain (nothing (Ex), (Sp) or (Su)), but even that will break some things.

Incidentally, could you use this ruling to get an object to qualify for a prestige class? Possibly by using true dragon cheese, a piece of old or older dragon meat might qualify for epic feats and PrCs requiring the dragonblood subtype.

[Sword-Geass]

While it's a very general statement and those will always be open for abuse with literal "RAW" silliness...

What's so wrong about what he said? Why should a Warforged that's 50% resilient to healing spells be easier to use healing spells on just because it's dead? Why does a creature's hide that's so thick and tough that it has DR 10 suddenly become as easy to cut through as butter when it's dead? Why should I be able to cremate the corpse of a fire elemental?

Other example, aside of those that were given, would be the corpse of a dead dragon still retainig it's frightful prescence. Or any part of it... See that dragon skull used as decoration? Well roll me a will save. Or even seeing a scale. It's a bit absurd to be frightened because of a scale, isn't it?

[Jack_Simth]

Other example, aside of those that were given, would be the corpse of a dead dragon still retainig it's frightful prescence. Or any part of it... See that dragon skull used as decoration? Well roll me a will save. Or even seeing a scale. It's a bit absurd to be frightened because of a scale, isn't it?
Per the True Dragon Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm):
"The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead"
If it's dead, it's not generally going to be doing those things (it might if it's undead, don't get me wrong, but that's not quite what we're looking at here).

[MisterKaws]

Per the True Dragon Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm):
"The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead"
If it's dead, it's not generally going to be doing those things (it might if it's undead, don't get me wrong, but that's not quite what we're looking at here).

Then just find a Pyroclastic Dragon with a Burning Presence and use one of its scales as a heater.

[Sword-Geass]

Per the True Dragon Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm):
"The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead"

Emphasis mine.

Is "flies overhead" described anywhere? If not, we could say that by throwing some bone of scale above the head of someone it should work :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

Increasing their fame isn't necessarily good. Buuuuut you know what is: spreading the saint's benefic influence and giving villages tools to defend themselves against evil (their thighbone, for example, functions as a holy disruption mace)

Huh. I wonder if a Monk Saint could use that as an unarmed strike...? :smallbiggrin:

[StreamOfTheSky]

First: Elementals leave no corpses.

Even if you kill it on its own home plane? Obviously a summon wouldn't, but I thought as living creatures, they still would in some situations.


Per the True Dragon Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm):
"The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead"
If it's dead, it's not generally going to be doing those things (it might if it's undead, don't get me wrong, but that's not quite what we're looking at here).

Aside from this, Frightful Presence would almost certainly fall under "Special Attacks" and not "Special Qualities." Admittedly they make it pretty tough to make sense of the True Dragon entries by not including many lines common to any other creature entry on their tables...

[Inevitability]

Emphasis mine.

Is "flies overhead" described anywhere? If not, we could say that by throwing some bone of scale above the head of someone it should work :smallbiggrin:

Animate Objects + Fly?

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm not sure how people have arrived at "any part of a corpse is identical to the corpse" for the purpose of this rule?

[MisterKaws]

Even if you kill it on its own home plane? Obviously a summon wouldn't, but I thought as living creatures, they still would in some situations.

They just turn into the normal, not so "lively" version of their element, and that's also why you need higher forms of resurrection to bring an Elemental back to life.

[Malimar]

I'm not sure how people have arrived at "any part of a corpse is identical to the corpse" for the purpose of this rule?

I could see the biggest part of the corpse counts as the corpse, but generally not, like, a single feather or whatnot that people are nominating.

[Jowgen]

I'm not sure how people have arrived at "any part of a corpse is identical to the corpse" for the purpose of this rule?

Judging by how Dragoncraft items work, elemental immunities and such almost certainly are meant to carry over from the creature to its corpe-bits anyway.

I find the notion of Auras carrying over suspect though (even taking the Sage at his word), since Dragoncraft items don't come with that sorta aura, and Saint-piece relics don't give off a Protective Aura.

Now, while regeneration is shut down by the sudden lack of Con score, but Fast Healing even works on undead and there are self-healing objects, so I see no reason it shouldn't work on corpses and their body parts. Now what good is a corpse that heals damage to itself? Top of my head: self-repairing bone weapons. There might be more.

One special quality that seems interesting but I can't think of a use for is the Electricity Healing of a Mechanantrix (FF). I mean, in modern technology, electric cables that fix themselves as long as there is a charge going through would be amazing, I can't see the D&D abuse potential (no pun intended).

[Inevitability]

One special quality that seems interesting but I can't think of a use for is the Electricity Healing of a Mechanantrix (FF). I mean, in modern technology, electric cables that fix themselves as long as there is a charge going through would be amazing, I can't see the D&D abuse potential (no pun intended).

How about carefully shaping a Mechanatrix' corpse into a certain form, damaging it until there's only a small piece left, then electrifying that piece to make it return to its original form? Shape-memory materials are already being used for many things in real life: you can do the same with a bunch of corpses and a cantrip.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I could see the biggest part of the corpse counts as the corpse, but generally not, like, a single feather or whatnot that people are nominating.
I think the idea is something along the lines of: 1) the corpse has these abilities, as possessed by the creature this is the corpse of, and 2) someone can be deadified by splitting them into two equal halves, then 3) both halves are equally the corpse, equally having the abilities, as understood in 1, and finally 4) this also works for n equal bits.

[Knaight]

I think the idea is something along the lines of: 1) the corpse has these abilities, as possessed by the creature this is the corpse of, and 2) someone can be deadified by splitting them into two equal halves, then 3) both halves are equally the corpse, equally having the abilities, as understood in 1, and finally 4) this also works for n equal bits.

So it's a ridiculous thought experiment which requires the ability to cut the corpse perfectly in half, so that neither is at all bigger than the other? Even if we assume that D&D does have some sort of minimum mass quanta, there's no reason to think it's big enough that getting exactly equal halves is at all possible. On top of that, the assumption that the biggest part counts as the corpse isn't all that well supported as a general rule.

[Mr Adventurer]

Judging by how Dragoncraft items work, elemental immunities and such almost certainly are meant to carry over from the creature to its corpe-bits anyway.

I don't think I'd accept that as a blanket statement, since you need a special feat to make Dragoncraft items IIRC, so it could be that the special qualities of those items are as much a product of that feat as the materials used.

I mean, I wouldn't accept it as a blanket statement ANYWAY, because it's silly (hence this thread at all), but you know...

[ExLibrisMortis]

So it's a ridiculous thought experiment which requires the ability to cut the corpse perfectly in half, so that neither is at all bigger than the other? Even if we assume that D&D does have some sort of minimum mass quanta, there's no reason to think it's big enough that getting exactly equal halves is at all possible. On top of that, the assumption that the biggest part counts as the corpse isn't all that well supported as a general rule.
It's all a 'ridiculous' thought experiment. That is the point of the thread.

As for the impossibility to actually cut a corpse in half, I would suggest a look at this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox) first (it's not entirely relevant, but it sets the backdrop, and it's pretty cool). I am not talking about the ability of some wizard to cut you in perfectly equal pieces (although, at the very least, wish can presumably do exactly that, or else turn you into something that can be so divided). I am talking about the mathematical possibility to divide things into two bits (where 'things' is left unmathematically vague, for now). Since this is, as you say, a thought experiment, it's fair game to take this as far as we can, which includes a certain world where the mathematical possibility equals the physical possibility (again, due to the existence of wish and even Alter Reality, this may not be too unreasonable).