A few combat questions

[thecrimsondawn]

So I was reading over some path of war, and one of their feats has me looking at things I never knew I could do to begin with. It has brought a few questions up to me with a build I have in mind, and I thought I would toss them here since it may be a bit exploitative, or perhaps just not doable by raw.

First, related to a full attack while TWF. When you do a normal full attack, you can use a combat maneuver in place of an attack, but can you use an off hand attack as one?

Second, a rogue talent I saw allows me a free dirty trick when I sneak attack. Assuming I have a way to get pounce (full attack on a charge) and I have the scout archetype (sneak attack on a charge) would A) every attack count as a sneak attack? and B) If my first attack is only counted as a sneak attack, and I get my free dirty trick to make them blind (and thus, able to be sneak attacked) would further attacks from my charging full attack count as sneak attacks, or does the blindness kick in after my action is finished?

Third, related to attacks of opportunity. What combat maneuvers am I able to do on an AoO? It seems that you can opt to do a couple, but no called actions (such as Vital strike and the like)


Ultimately, from my understanding so far, I can use a pounce based move from Primal Fury to charge, get sneak attack, free dirty trick to blind, get all other attacks as sneak attacks, and I can use one of my attacks for a trip (with greater trip and Vicious Stomp) to get two AoO's both with sneak attack.)
Is this a legal combo, or am I overlooking something?

[Gallowglass]

First, related to a full attack while TWF. When you do a normal full attack, you can use a combat maneuver in place of an attack, but can you use an off hand attack as one?

any Combat Maneuver defined as replacing an attack you can use by replacing your off hand attack during a Two-Weapon-Fighting Full-Attack-Action. Those are disarm, sunder and trip.


Second, a rogue talent I saw allows me a free dirty trick when I sneak attack. Assuming I have a way to get pounce (full attack on a charge) and I have the scout archetype (sneak attack on a charge) would A) every attack count as a sneak attack? and B) If my first attack is only counted as a sneak attack, and I get my free dirty trick to make them blind (and thus, able to be sneak attacked) would further attacks from my charging full attack count as sneak attacks, or does the blindness kick in after my action is finished?

let's break it down:
Scout: "At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability."
Pounce: "When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
Dirty Strike: "A rogue with this talent can perform a dirty trick combat maneuver as a free action when he deals sneak attack damage to an enemy. This maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity."


so, the RAW answer would SEEM to be that yes, you get sneak attack on all the attacks that hit during your charge and, yes, you could make a free dirty trick with EACH hit. So three hits, you could hit him with three effects (blindness, deafness, sickened)

IF your DM -does- dispute this by saying "no, only your first attack is going to get sneak attack dmg" you would also be RAW legal to say "okay, my free dirty trick on that first attack blinded him, so now my subsequent attacks should also get sneak attack damage", but that that point your DM is already saying "I think this is too powerful, I'm going to rule it away" and so another backdoor way is probably not going to impress him.

I have played games with the very reasonable house-rule that, with a few exceptions, you can't use the SAME free action more than once in a round, so it may be reasonable to say you only get one free-action dirty trick despite attacking multiple times with sneak attack damage. That might be a way to mitigate this plan if your DM balks at it without losing the full coolness of it.


Third, related to attacks of opportunity. What combat maneuvers am I able to do on an AoO? It seems that you can opt to do a couple, but no called actions (such as Vital strike and the like)

"An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack" <-- from the pfsrd. So you can use any Combat Maneuver defined as replacing an attack. Those are disarm, sunder and trip.


Ultimately, from my understanding so far, I can use a pounce based move from Primal Fury to charge, get sneak attack, free dirty trick to blind, get all other attacks as sneak attacks, and I can use one of my attacks for a trip (with greater trip and Vicious Stomp) to get two AoO's both with sneak attack.)
Is this a legal combo, or am I overlooking something?

Greater Trip: "...Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
Vicious Stomp: "Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike."
Combat Reflexes: "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity "

I would argue that your trip of the opponent and the opponent falling prone are part of the same "opportunity". Its the same discrete movement after all. Your fist hitting his face, his butt hitting the floor. So, no, I think the opportunity clause prevents you from taking both of the AoO. That being said, an argument COULD be made that they are provoking two opportunities because you have devoted 6 feats to making it be two provokes, one from the "action" of being tripped and one from the "action" of falling prone. I just wouldn't find that to be a persuasive argument. Both "actions" are making the same discrete movement.

Despite that, I think you've got a solidly creative and fun combat trick. I'd love to see your character build and how soon you can get to it with the feats you need.

[Psyren]

OP, when you say "combat maneuver" are you referring to the base PF system ones like trip and grapple, or are you referring to the Path of War special moves?



IF your DM -does- dispute this by saying "no, only your first attack is going to get sneak attack dmg" you would also be RAW legal to say "okay, my free dirty trick on that first attack blinded him, so now my subsequent attacks should also get sneak attack damage", but that that point your DM is already saying "I think this is too powerful, I'm going to rule it away" and so another backdoor way is probably not going to impress him.

I wouldn't call it a "backdoor." You're giving up your highest iterative after all, that's no small potatoes as tradeoffs go. Compare this for instance to the Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter) all the way back in the APG, which gives you pounce in exchange for your highest iterative for no feat investment at all.

[thecrimsondawn]

Thank you for the quick reply and detailed break down :)

I am going to use a new Path of War Expanded Rogue Archetype since we are currently plays testing the new content, but that aside, the main center point of this build is getting greater trip. The mid BAB that a rogue gets needs to be supplemented with extra bonuses to make them viable, but there are more then enough ways to get those bonuses. An item I eyed making an NPC for our DM " Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver " gives another +2 bonus, and weapon finesse will allow you to use your dex mod for select CMBs so long as they make sense to not use STR for. We have ruled as far as martial arts goes that trip attacks and reposition's can both be acts of dexterity, but grapple and sunder are not.
The feat Greater (insert combat move here) all require BAB6, so that is lv9 for the trip abuse. Vicious Stomp however is much more easy to get, but still needs Imp unarmed strike (something I need anyway for the personality I have in mind). While I have not started to put this concept on paper yet, I think I will only be using TWF and ignoring the rest of the chain due to may be feat starved.
I will be sure to toss my Mythweaver link down when I am finished tho :)

Thanks again.

[Gallowglass]

I wouldn't call it a "backdoor." You're giving up your highest iterative after all, that's no small potatoes as tradeoffs go.

He is? The way I'm reading it is his first attack would hit at full BAB -2 for TWF, hit and do damage w sneak attack and, as a free action, get a dirty trick attempt.

He would then make a dirty trick CMB attack (full BAB) and, if successful, apply blinded or somethign else.

His second attack (the offhand weapon attack), also at full BAB -2, but now with a relative bonus because the bad guy is blinded and his AC has tanked, hits and does damage w sneak attack.

His third attack (the first iterative) at BAB -5 -2, but still with the blinded bonus, hits and does damage w sneak attack.

This trick isn't giving up that first iterative because the dirty trick is a free action spawned off that first iterative.

[thecrimsondawn]

No, PoW would allow me in almost every case to make any CMB with no AoO. However the core archetypes promote charge attacks, and Primal Fury has one early strike that I simply cant pass up. This is all core questions here.


OP, when you say "combat maneuver" are you referring to the base PF system ones like trip and grapple, or are you referring to the Path of War special moves?



I wouldn't call it a "backdoor." You're giving up your highest iterative after all, that's no small potatoes as tradeoffs go. Compare this for instance to the Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter) all the way back in the APG, which gives you pounce in exchange for your highest iterative for no feat investment at all.

This is true, however when you make an AoO, you are attacking at your highest bonus anyway, so by giving up one attack, if you make that trip, you get two AND debuff him at the same time. Or as stated above, in a best case scenario, that is full attack with every attack getting a dirty trick and every attack getting sneak attack, followed by (or tossing in second) a trip attack that nets 2 more attacks thanks to feats.
Also....pounce op :P

[thecrimsondawn]

He is? The way I'm reading it is his first attack would hit at full BAB -2 for TWF, hit and do damage w sneak attack and, as a free action, get a dirty trick attempt.

He would then make a dirty trick CMB attack (full BAB) and, if successful, apply blinded or somethign else.

His second attack (the offhand weapon attack), also at full BAB -2, but now with a relative bonus because the bad guy is blinded and his AC has tanked, hits and does damage w sneak attack.

His third attack (the first iterative) at BAB -5 -2, but still with the blinded bonus, hits and does damage w sneak attack.

This trick isn't giving up that first iterative because the dirty trick is a free action spawned off that first iterative.


The giving up I think he is talking about is the trip attempt I will be making somewhere in the combo that nets me 2 more attacks with sneak attack damage on each.

Further more, removing the blindness effect AND standing up are both move actions, so this puts the target in quite the situation if the dice land correctly :3

[Gallowglass]

Thank you for the quick reply and detailed break down :)

I am going to use a new Path of War Expanded Rogue Archetype since we are currently plays testing the new content ... An item I eyed making an NPC for our DM " Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver " gives another +2 bonus, and weapon finesse will allow you to use your dex mod for select CMBs so long as they make sense to not use STR for. We have ruled as far as martial arts goes that trip attacks and reposition's can both be acts of dexterity, but grapple and sunder are not.

Nice. I have an Inquisitor using the PoW Archetype right now. Its pretty awesome. Trade out the junky and under-powered Judgement class ability for a bunch of Maneuvers.

There is already a feat called Agile Manuevers to replace STR with DEX on combat manuevers. It works for all Manuevers. Just FYI, in case you didn't know and didn't want to homebrew.

[Gallowglass]

I wouldn't call it a "backdoor." You're giving up your highest iterative after all, that's no small potatoes as tradeoffs go. Compare this for instance to the Mobile Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/mobile-fighter) all the way back in the APG, which gives you pounce in exchange for your highest iterative for no feat investment at all.

Ah, I see. Well, I wouldn't call it backdoor either. I'm actually supportive of it working as is, giving him a Dirty Trick for each separate attack that does Sneak Attack. I'm just anticipating what the DM might balk at.

[thecrimsondawn]

Ah, I see. Well, I wouldn't call it backdoor either. I'm actually supportive of it working as is, giving him a Dirty Trick for each separate attack that does Sneak Attack. I'm just anticipating what the DM might balk at.

Well...compared to my over 100 damage every other turn build, Im sure this will be a welcome change of pace for him from me, haha :D

Stacking silver vulnerability and Black Seraph Style's chain REALLY adds up the damage. Even without Black Seraph, you just use something with a whole lot of damage that hits a few times on someone vulnerable to silver, and your average of 40 damage or so at low levels turns into 80-110 range