Building a (near) unkillable caster?

[StiXFletcher]

Hey all, I've been trying to come up with some ideas about how to make a character based around not dying ( I realise that sounds obvious as almost everyone would obviously want this). I specifically mean a caster of some sorts that makes great use of temporary hit points, regaining hit points and abilities such as the Undying Warlock's Defy Death.

Any suggestions would be ideal!

[Theodoxus]

For what you want, you're going in the right direction. I'm not 100% convinced that temp HPs are the way to go, but I get their appeal (the group I'm currently DMing, half the party uses them from various sources (though no Healer feat, surprisingly).

I think a stronger method to stay alive is to convince everyone else in your group to play barbarians. The baddies will be too concerned with the ravaging horde of berserk man-meat to worry about your spellcasting... Grab a couple levels of Warlock for the Temp HP boons and a level of cleric (probably Life, Tempest or War) for emergency heals for yourself, and just sit behind your meatpuppets and live to a ripe old age.

[StiXFletcher]

I have mainly looked at Warlock abilities atm. In terms of temp. hp at low levels Fiendish Vigour guarantees 8hp boost no spell slots required and at higher levels Armour of Agathys seems like it could be reasonable. As well Vampiric Touch seems like something ideal.

[kaoskonfety]

Strong option for First level: Any Heavy Armor cleric + Heavy Armor Master makes early game survival trivial. It gets less impressive over time but such is life.

Past that?
General race suggestions: Halfling to hide, Dwarf for bonus Con and HP or medium armor tricks, Arroka for flight, Half-Orc for "that didn't kill me" *FIREBALL* - all of these preclude heavy armor at level 1

Druid - even your early/low level animal forms are good: for hiding and escaping
Wizard Abjurer or Bladesinger - Cause Arcane Ward or AC boosting madness
Necromancer for minions and various lifesteal goodies
Sorceror - Dragon for the resistance to an element and the AC
Warlock - cause fiend pact HP, Armor or Agathas, blade superpowers and such forth, nom nom nom

[StiXFletcher]

How would you rank Tiefling for a Warlock. Obviously the +2 Cha is great. It seems that fire resistance (because fire ball), Hellish Rebuke (against melee) and Darkness (against ranged/magic/melee) are decent for keeping alive.

[RulesJD]

1. This is entirely dependent on what you mean by unkillable. If you mean "haha I have a spell for everything that negates your ability to hurt me" then make a full Abjuration/Divination Wizard and call it a day. Maybe a level or two at the high end for Heavy Armor or something.


2. If you mean Temp HP/heal generation, your search begins and ends with a Warlock/Necromancer.

Fiend Warlock = Temp HP + Fiendish Vigor spam (always have 8 temp HP min).

Necromancer = Actual healing HP per kill with automatic increased healing based on spell level.

From here, you just want to maximize ways to kill enemies on off-turns (Necromancer healing is once per turn, not once per round). Cloudkill is an obvious choice but runs into the poison resistance/immunity problem. Personally, and this sounds crazy to most, but I would suggest 5 levels of Cleric to pick up Spirit Guardians. You'll get Heavy Armor/Shields and full spell slot progression. Just use the upper spell slot to upcast Spirit Guardians (tons of off-turn kills so massive amounts of actual healing).

Alternatively, stick Warlock/Necromancer and use Vampiric Touch upcast from your highest slot. You get, per kill:
1. Warlock level + Cha Mod in Temp HP
2. 3x the spell slot level (minimum of 9hp) in actual healing
3. 1/2 the damage per hit from Vampiric Touch (average ~6hp at level 3)

Not OP, but a fun build. Obviously use Zombie/Skeletons for support and advantage to hit on the Vampiric Touch.

In theory, at max level (18 Wiz for perma Shield + 2 Warlock) with 20 Int/Cha:

1. 7 Temp hp/kill
2. 27 hp per kill with Vampiric Touch
3. 31.5 hp per hit with Vampiric Touch

So 58.5 healing per kill with 7 Temp HP.

[kaoskonfety]

How would you rank Tiefling for a Warlock. Obviously the +2 Cha is great. It seems that fire resistance (because fire ball), Hellish Rebuke (against melee) and Darkness (against ranged/magic/melee) are decent for keeping alive.

Darkness is the only thing I'd call a primary survival trick in the package? The fire resistance is nice but fairly conditional. Tiefling is a bit too "offencive tricks" heavy for what I'd call unkillable - including the +2 cha (and the Int). Any build I suggest will focus on AC, HP and saves over maxing your charisma or retaliation damage - I'd be suggesting non-variant human for the +1 Dex, Wis and Con first. but at this point we are talking halves of +1's.

For non-humans I'd be tucking into Half-Orc I think - hellish rebuke when I was supposed to go down is too funny.

[Hrugner]

I think a good start would be to grab 2 levels of shadow origin sorcerer and then go bard till 10th to grab the good paladin auras and pickup half proficiency in your con save to immortality and initiative. Then take 6 levels as an undying light warlock and call it good. Top it off with two more bard levels I guess.

I don't know if you'll be all that useful, but you won't die permanently very easily.

Either that or see if your DM thinks barbarian and rogue half damage abilities stack.

[Drackolus]

I'm playing a warforged crown paladin 6/abjuration wizard x. Took defensive style too. Mostly going to rely on feats over stats, but after heavy armor master and res:con I'll have 16s in everything that matters. So far so good.

[StiXFletcher]

I want to build a Warlock that has made a deal for an extended life. The Undying Patron seems underwhelming so I have been trying to multiclass something more interesting.

My current thought is Life Cleric (1)/Necromancy Wizard (2)/Fiend Warlock (5+).

Life Cleric is for Disciple of Life. Necromancy Wizard is for Grim Harvest. Fiend Warlock for Dark One's Blessing and Fiendish Vigour for an initial 8thp.

Attack wise I plan to use Eldrich Blast initially and then move to using Vampiric Touch when I need things seem weakened/ I need hp
For Vampiric Touch (3rd Level): 10.5 damage, 5hp healed, +5hp further from Disciple of Life, on top of that on a kill +9hp from Grim Harvest, +7thp from Dark One’s Blessing.

Obviously this is very MAD needing 13+ in WIS, INT, and CHA so any modification suggestions would be ideal.

[Drackolus]

I want to build a Warlock that has made a deal for an extended life. The Undying Patron seems underwhelming so I have been trying to multiclass something more interesting.

My current thought is Life Cleric (1)/Necromancy Wizard (2)/Fiend Warlock (5+).

Life Cleric is for Disciple of Life. Necromancy Wizard is for Grim Harvest. Fiend Warlock for Dark One's Blessing and Fiendish Vigour for an initial 8thp.

Attack wise I plan to use Eldrich Blast initially and then move to using Vampiric Touch when I need things seem weakened/ I need hp
For Vampiric Touch (3rd Level): 10.5 damage, 5hp healed, +5hp further from Disciple of Life, on top of that on a kill +9hp from Grim Harvest, +7thp from Dark One’s Blessing.

Obviously this is very MAD needing 13+ in WIS, INT, and CHA so any modification suggestions would be ideal.

This actually sounds super cool! Never thought of using disciple of life with vampiric touch. Sounds a but silly thematically, but hey. Just find an evil god of life. Errrr... Say you were some hedge-mage healer (refluffed life cleric) who got a bit obsessed with the whole death thing and then made a pact with some fiend. Clearly checklisty, but it's at least vaguely interesting.
Make it a hill dwarf and you don't need str or dex, and it gives you a nice health cushion. All you need is the 13 int and wis and then pump cha to the roof.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think a stronger method to stay alive is to convince everyone else in your group to play barbarians. The baddies will be too concerned with the ravaging horde of berserk man-meat to worry about your spellcasting... Grab a couple levels of Warlock for the Temp HP boons and a level of cleric (probably Life, Tempest or War) for emergency heals for yourself, and just sit behind your meatpuppets and live to a ripe old age.
Somebody played old D&D. :smallcool: If your Persuasion check works in real life, this could work well.

[Theodoxus]

I have mainly looked at Warlock abilities atm. In terms of temp. hp at low levels Fiendish Vigour guarantees 8hp boost no spell slots required and at higher levels Armour of Agathys seems like it could be reasonable. As well Vampiric Touch seems like something ideal.

I just want to caution you on Fiendish Vigor - it sounds amazing, but near fights have broken out at our table over kill stealing. The warlock prematurely counting on that temp HP gets robbed by the rogue who just wants the baddie dead... It's really bad when there are two Fiends vying for the same kill... I was overjoyed when one 'lock wanted to swap out for Paladin - reduced inter-party tension by 95%.

[StiXFletcher]

This actually sounds super cool! Never thought of using disciple of life with vampiric touch. Sounds a but silly thematically, but hey. Just find an evil god of life. Errrr... Say you were some hedge-mage healer (refluffed life cleric) who got a bit obsessed with the whole death thing and then made a pact with some fiend. Clearly checklisty, but it's at least vaguely interesting.
Make it a hill dwarf and you don't need str or dex, and it gives you a nice health cushion. All you need is the 13 int and wis and then pump cha to the roof.

The way I thought I'd justify it is as being a follower of a god of unnatural life (Sort of like Orcus or Vecna in terms of main gods, or Afflux or Evening Glory in terms of other minor deities). Since a lot of pantheons see Death as LN it shouldn't be too had to RP.

[Drackolus]

The way I thought I'd justify it is as being a follower of a god of unnatural life (Sort of like Orcus or Vecna in terms of main gods, or Afflux or Evening Glory in terms of other minor deities). Since a lot of pantheons see Death as LN it shouldn't be too had to RP.

That makes sense to me! Also, some dms (and myself) like the idea that clerics don't so much draw power from, but actually learn from their god, just like warlocks. In fact, if your dm is cool with it, you could reflavor the cleric level as part of the pact itself - or maybe as an ur-priest.

[kaoskonfety]

Life Cleric 1/Necromancer 2 / Fiendlock + looks quite sound for Temp HP + self healing while the life dip leaves you able to cover off at least some modest healing for the rest of the party if needed (though I for one would be leaning on being a bit leary of getting spells cast on my by the Diabolist necromancer with most characters)

The heavy armor from life cleric might need to get left behind as you are quite spread out, needing at a minimum, three 13's and you will want a decent CON.

If you are set on tiefling this might be a case to see if your GM will entertain an unarmored defence (instead of Cleric armor prof), not sure on the numbers though cause Wis feels like a score you'd be getting as close to 13 as possible, but if they allow Con+shield it might be possible to make it worth it in the early game at least.

Alternatively play a hill dwarf for the +2 con +1 wis, ignoring the speed penalty and an extra HP per level.

Anyway, looks like a blast to try regardless of the fine details. Kinda curious if it (Life Cleric 1/Necromancer 2 / Fiendlock +) runs well in play.

Chain, Blade, or Tome warlock?
I'd be thinking chain myself, to have a set of eyes to go everywhere I don't want to... but you've already got access to find familiar from wizard.
Tome is nice but you should already have all the cantrips you need but the 'all rituals' invocation is pretty good
Blade is really the only on the very clearly give you access to alternate tricks in the form of good melee options - but do you WANT another stat eating your attention on STR or DEX when you need that charisma increasingly badly?...

I'm settling on chain - possibly with voice of the chain master to avoid being in dangerous places and for fine detail scouting... Fiendish Vigor and Agonising or Repelling blast at level 2? repelling if your Cha is lower than you'd like, agony otherwise?

[X3r4ph]

Shadow sorcerer gives you a pseudo half-orc "I can't die" ability. Revenant is also good for not dying. Also, works great with necromancer style wise.

[StiXFletcher]

Life Cleric 1/Necromancer 2 / Fiendlock + looks quite sound for Temp HP + self healing while the life dip leaves you able to cover off at least some modest healing for the rest of the party if needed (though I for one would be leaning on being a bit leary of getting spells cast on my by the Diabolist necromancer with most characters)

The heavy armor from life cleric might need to get left behind as you are quite spread out, needing at a minimum, three 13's and you will want a decent CON.

If you are set on tiefling this might be a case to see if your GM will entertain an unarmored defence (instead of Cleric armor prof), not sure on the numbers though cause Wis feels like a score you'd be getting as close to 13 as possible, but if they allow Con+shield it might be possible to make it worth it in the early game at least.

Alternatively play a hill dwarf for the +2 con +1 wis, ignoring the speed penalty and an extra HP per level.

Anyway, looks like a blast to try regardless of the fine details. Kinda curious if it (Life Cleric 1/Necromancer 2 / Fiendlock +) runs well in play.

Chain, Blade, or Tome warlock?
I'd be thinking chain myself, to have a set of eyes to go everywhere I don't want to... but you've already got access to find familiar from wizard.
Tome is nice but you should already have all the cantrips you need but the 'all rituals' invocation is pretty good
Blade is really the only on the very clearly give you access to alternate tricks in the form of good melee options - but do you WANT another stat eating your attention on STR or DEX when you need that charisma increasingly badly?...

I'm settling on chain - possibly with voice of the chain master to avoid being in dangerous places and for fine detail scouting... Fiendish Vigor and Agonising or Repelling blast at level 2? repelling if your Cha is lower than you'd like, agony otherwise?

I completely agree I think Chain in order to give my touch spells some actual range. Hadn't given much thought to invocations beyond Fiendish Vigour. I think Repelling Blast sounds the most flavourful.

[StiXFletcher]

Shadow sorcerer gives you a pseudo half-orc "I can't die" ability. Revenant is also good for not dying. Also, works great with necromancer style wise.

Hadn't actually heard of the Shadow Sorcerer before. Just looked it over and it sounds very interesting. Thanks!

[StiXFletcher]

So here is where I stand. Basically I want to take up to a 3 level combo of Life Cleric 1/Necromancy Wizard 2/Shadow Sorcerer 2 and then the rest Fiend Warlock, more than 3 classes seems like it would be excessive. I feel like the Life Cleric 1 is a must as it returns hp without requiring the killing blow.

So Strength of the Grave vs. Grim Harvest.
Fiend Warlock and Grim Harvest work together to make killing enemies especially powerful. However, if you don't get the killing blow it's wasted (and also MAD).
Strength of the Grave (possibly comboed with Undying Warlock) would give DC5+damage taken Con Save (followed by any successful death save) would have the character return to consciousness. However, at higher levels DC5+damage could easily become redundant (and the Undying Warlock is meh vs. Fiend Warlock).

[Drackolus]

I would drop the sorcerer bit. No actual combos and a mostly wasted ability. Plus, you must then wait until level 10 to even get vampiric touch -it's a 3rd level spell, so you won't learn it until warlock 5.

Actually, you should probably hold off necro 2 until you get it, though clr1 gives you enough already. After all, wiz2 gives the build almost nothing until you get vampiric touch anyway.

[Gtdead]

Does it have to be 100% caster? Cause if you are allowed to use UA, Fighter 1/Shadow Sorc combo is potent.
Starting with Vhuman Fighter -> Con proficiency, Heavy armor, Defense Style, HAM
Then grabbing 1 lvl of Shadow Sorcerer -> Strength of the Grave, Darkness

Is already a pretty durable character. Con save proficiency that helps with strength of the grave, ham to reduce incoming damage.

From there on it can branch to to whatever he likes. Grabbing 2 lvls of fiendlock for agonizing blast/fiendish vigor and blessing is a good idea, and it naturally evolves into a sorlock. Or it could go for Fiend Bladelock.

This mc already has high AC, defensive advantage, shield, death protection, temp HP. It has some problems with Dex saves though. Both builds can generate resistance, bladelock through fiendish resilience, sorlock through protection from energy. A dip in wizard or druid could be possible for absorb elements, but it complicates the build too much imo.

Grabbing tough is going to help too.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey all, I've been trying to come up with some ideas about how to make a character based around not dying ( I realise that sounds obvious as almost everyone would obviously want this). I specifically mean a caster of some sorts that makes great use of temporary hit points, regaining hit points and abilities such as the Undying Warlock's Defy Death.

Any suggestions would be ideal!

I'd start with a Diviner for Portent. Pick up the Lucky feat.

If you get the following spells, you should become fairly indestructible:
Banishment (4th), Drawmij's Instant Summons (6th), Clone (8th), Demiplane (8th), Wish (9th)

Alot of this hinges on being able to use Wish to recreate the lower level spells on the cheap and without material components, but if you stash away the appropriate components in advance / are wealthy, you don't actually need Wish at all. Technically Demiplane is optional as well (in which case, so is Banishment), but Clone is desired.

Create a demiplane and get inside. Cast Wish to create a clone of yourself (avoiding the costly components). Leave the demiplane, or if taking the full hour to cast Clone normally, use Banishment to get yourself back to the material plane. At some point, put Drawmij's Instant Summons on your spellbook so that you don't have to make a new one.

When you die, your clone in the demiplane activates. You use Drawmij to get your spellbook back (ideally before your corpse is looted), then create another clone and banish yourself out of the demiplane again. Rinse and repeat. Worst case scenario is if somehow an enemy learns of the existence of and contents of the demiplane and thus is able to gain access to it.

Granted, this doesn't prevent you dying so much as create a safety net for the eventuality that you do die. It also is only possible with the most high level magic, and it can be foiled by an enemy with access to similar magic.

[RulesJD]

Glyphs of Warding + 9th level Dispel Magics = have fun entering a Wizards Demiplane sanctum.