Natural Weapons

[Laurefindel]

So lets say a character has claws for hands and that they are considered natural weapons. The description says these claws deal 1d6 piercing damage, and specifies that the character is proficient with them.

I want to get my facts straight.

natural weapon are "weapons" and therefore not unarmed strikes. A level 1 monk can make 1 weapon attack and one unarmed strike (perhaps using a claw) albeit at 1d4 bludgeoning damage. Since the claw is not a monk weapon, you can't make a claw/unarmed strike routine with Martial Arts feature.

When used to make an attack, the claws add STR modifier to damage. Some creature use DEX with natural weapons - would it be reasonable to consider them "finesse weapons"?

Nothing in the MM suggests that natural weapons are light; they are either combined for damage or require multiattack for multiple attacks. Could a character with claws make an off-hand claw attack as a bonus action? With Dual wielder?

Since natural weapons are weapons, a character with claws could use a claw attack for a Opportunity Attack or with with an ability allowing a weapon attack. How about a paladin's divine smite?

Could a character with claws select the dueling fighting style? Could it select two-weapon fighting?

Other than "don't open this can of worms", what else should I know or question about characters with natural weapons?

thanks in advance

[BiPolar]

As you said, there are a lot of variables here. Can we get more specific with what creature their race is so we can understand the type of Natural Weapon being described/used?

[Laurefindel]

As you said, there are a lot of variables here. Can we get more specific with what creature their race is so we can understand the type of Natural Weapon being described/used?

Custom girtablilu scorpion-women race, based on the giant scorpion in the MM. Has 2 arms, 2 claws plus 1 stinger, so the ability to wield weapons AND make natural weapon attacks.

[gfishfunk]

I would say, whoa whoa whoa - - -

Unarmed Strike takes into account natural weaponry. Take the Aaroakoa: they gain proficiency with unarmed strike and have a set 1d4 damage. If the race does not give you the innate ability, then anything past that is homebrew. Do whatever you want at that point.

I would suggest, however, that if you want to homebrew something like that, follow Aaroakoa and make it 1d4 slashing + strength as a racial feature balanced against other things. So, instead of giving a skill, you give unarmed strike proficiency.

I would not consider the character eligible for two weapon fighting or dueling fighting styles because the character does not have weapons. There is a trade-off for not being able to never drop, never be disarmed, and always have a weapon (two even) on hand.

Easy check to see if unarmed strike stacks with something: does the description say "when you attack with a weapon"? The paladin feature says 'with a melee weapon', so it does not stack.

On the other hand: your table, your rules.

[BiPolar]

Custom girtablilu scorpion-women race, based on the giant scorpion in the MM. Has 2 arms, 2 claws plus 1 stinger, so the ability to wield weapons AND make natural weapon attacks.

Blimey. Well, given it's custom you can kind of doing anything you want, but you are starting with an incredible powerful base. Are you giving it multiattack or just using standard attack options per classes? It sounds like it's the latter, so that minimizes some of the concern of an overpowered character that will have to be dealt with by DM in encounter creation.


natural weapon are "weapons" and therefore not unarmed strikes. A level 1 monk can make 1 weapon attack and one unarmed strike (perhaps using a claw) albeit at 1d4 bludgeoning damage. Since the claw is not a monk weapon, you can't make a claw/unarmed strike routine with Martial Arts feature.
That is correct, natural weapons are classed as weapons, so you would NOT be able to use your claw and/or sting as a Monk unarmed strike. It would be your head and/or normal hands


When used to make an attack, the claws add STR modifier to damage. Some creature use DEX with natural weapons - would it be reasonable to consider them "finesse weapons"?
Giant Scorpion uses Strength as their modifier here. If that is your base for this race, then I'd stick with that. There is no reason to think they'd be classed as finesse.



Nothing in the MM suggests that natural weapons are light; they are either combined for damage or require multiattack for multiple attacks. Could a character with claws make an off-hand claw attack as a bonus action? With Dual wielder?
Agreed, there is nothing to suggest they are light and must use a special multiattack to get more than one attack. This would only work if you had Dual Wielder.


Since natural weapons are weapons, a character with claws could use a claw attack for a Opportunity Attack or with with an ability allowing a weapon attack. How about a paladin's divine smite?
Yes, I would say you could use a claw attack for an OA or a Divine Smite.


Could a character with claws select the dueling fighting style? Could it select two-weapon fighting?
No, Dueling wouldn't work. Naturally you are wielding two natural weapons. Two-weapon would work, though.

[Laurefindel]

At the moment I'm interested in RaW, where RaW exists.

So far I'm working off the principle that natural weapons are weapons from page 10 in the MM. "These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike."

having natural weapons not be weapon would simplify things, but the above quote seems to say otherwise.

RE: BiPolar

the race does not grant multiattack (and the poison is scaled akin to the dragonborn breath weapon), but eventually characters gain 2 (or more) attacks.

The race is powerful compared to those of the Player's Handbook (which are not in this homebrewed world), but balanced against the other player character races.

[BiPolar]

At the moment I'm interested in RaW, where RaW exists.

So far I'm working off the principle that natural weapons are weapons from page 10 in the MM. "These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike."

having natural weapons not be weapon would simplify things, but the above quote seems to say otherwise.

Agreed, hence my response.

[gfishfunk]

At the moment I'm interested in RaW, where RaW exists.

So far I'm working off the principle that natural weapons are weapons from page 10 in the MM. "These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike."

having natural weapons not be weapon would simplify things, but the above quote seems to say otherwise.

The closest thing you are going to get to RAW is Aaroakoa as an example.

[BiPolar]

The closest thing you are going to get to RAW is Aaroakoa as an example.

That's a really good point, and one I should have considered. This is probably a much better way to create a RAW race. Which makes the Scorpion Claw an unarmed strike, viable for Monk, but not viable for Divine Smite. And getting 1d4 bludgeoning damage on a claw plus proficiency.

[Laurefindel]

hum

Aarakocra (from Elemental Evil Companion) lists talons specifically as unarmed strikes

Minotaur (from Waterborne adventures) lists horns specifically as melee weapon

looks like I can do whatever I want as long as I specify what it is.

[BiPolar]

hum

Aarakocra (from Elemental Evil Companion) lists talons specifically as unarmed strikes

Minotaur (from Waterborne adventures) lists horns specifically as melee weapon

looks like I can do whatever I want as long as I specify what it is.

Elemental evil is an official release. Waterborne adventurers is unearthed arcana and incomplete and possibly unbalanced, like all UA.

And you can always do anything you want. You're asking for as close to raw, and UA isn't raw.

[Laurefindel]

Yeah, I'm going with unarmed strike. So much less headaches (and its official to boot!)

thanks guys

[gfishfunk]

No prob! A couple other -quick- suggestions:

- Stat bumps: +1 Something / +1 Something else. You (As GM) should chose Str / Dex / or Con for the +1 and Wis / Int / Cha for the other +1. Nothing more due to other racial goodies.
- Sting: As a bonus action, may attack with the stinger. Make it a Dex save rather than an attack so that Smite and other things are not strung together off of it, or model it off of the dragonborn's breath weapon
- Disadvantage or Penalty for using weapons not designed for their claws.

[Laurefindel]

No prob! A couple other -quick- suggestions:

- Stat bumps: +1 Something / +1 Something else. You (As GM) should chose Str / Dex / or Con for the +1 and Wis / Int / Cha for the other +1. Nothing more due to other racial goodies.
- Sting: As a bonus action, may attack with the stinger. Make it a Dex save rather than an attack so that Smite and other things are not strung together off of it, or model it off of the dragonborn's breath weapon
- Disadvantage or Penalty for using weapons not designed for their claws.

I didn't say because it wasn't relevant to the original subject, but this is a homebrewed world where humans, elves and the other races of the Player's handbook aren't present. So while it is a strong race, it only needs to be balanced against the other custom races.

Divine Smite cannot work on the sting because unarmed strikes are not melee weapons, nor as off-hand attacks. Them being unarmed strikes solves 90% of my problems

[RickAllison]

Alter Self also gives natural weapons, an they are distinct from unarmed strikes. So the Aarakocra are not the only answer.

[Laurefindel]

Alter Self also gives natural weapons, an they are distinct from unarmed strikes. So the Aarakocra are not the only answer.

Actually, alter self does specify that natural weapons are unarmed strikes, which only reinforce the aarakocra way of doing it

(or maybe that's what you were telling me. In that case, sorry)

[RickAllison]

Actually, alter self does specify that natural weapons are unarmed strikes, which only reinforce the aarakocra way of doing it

(or maybe that's what you were telling me. In that case, sorry)

Yup! Which starts to bring up questions about those Monk/Druid multiclasses again...

[Cancer115]

Thank you for asking the question, cuz this has come up on my table too

[Coidzor]

When used to make an attack, the claws add STR modifier to damage. Some creature use DEX with natural weapons - would it be reasonable to consider them "finesse weapons"?

Nothing in the MM suggests that natural weapons are light; they are either combined for damage or require multiattack for multiple attacks. Could a character with claws make an off-hand claw attack as a bonus action? With Dual wielder?

Since natural weapons are weapons, a character with claws could use a claw attack for a Opportunity Attack or with with an ability allowing a weapon attack. How about a paladin's divine smite?

Could a character with claws select the dueling fighting style? Could it select two-weapon fighting?

I would say creatures that can use dex to hit and damage with a natural weapon have the finesse property on that natural weapon, yes.

If wielding only the claws or other TWFing friendly weapons, sure. Unless it's a big honking thing, though no examples spring to mind from d&d, all I can think of is William Birkin from Resident Evil 2. (Ed: Though now that you mention it, scorpion pincers would be a contender there, too)

Yes. Greenflame Blade should work with a claw attack, for instance.

Yes, provided they only uses one weapon that round. They can take either or even both, but cab only benefit from one in any given round.


Unarmed Strike takes into account natural weaponry. Take the Aaroakoa: they gain proficiency with unarmed strike and have a set 1d4 damage. If the race does not give you the innate ability, then anything past that is homebrew. Do whatever you want at that point.

I would suggest, however, that if you want to homebrew something like that, follow Aaroakoa and make it 1d4 slashing + strength as a racial feature balanced against other things. So, instead of giving a skill, you give unarmed strike proficiency.

Characters already all have proficiency with their unarmed strikes. Giving them a 1d4 unarmed strike fluffed as lesser natural weapons is giving them the equivalent of one of the minor benefits of Tavern Brawler.

[Markoff Chainey]

look at the UA: Eberron - Shifter races

Longtooth
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1.
Shifting Feature. While shifting, you can make a bite attack as an action. This is a melee weapon attack that uses Strength for its attack roll and damage bonus and deals 1d6 piercing damage. If this attack hits a target that is your size or smaller, the target is also grappled.

Razorclaw
Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity score increases by 1.
Shifting Feature. While shifting, you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action. You can use your Dexterity for its attack roll and damage bonus, and this attack deals slashing damage.

yours would be a mixture of them as the scorpion has 2 weapons like the razorclaw, but it is str-based.

I think the razorclaw rather odd, because RAW you can only use it as a BA and it is an "unarmed strike"!
So we changed it on our table - the Razorclaw can attack as an action or BA and deals d4 slashing.

Race: Shifter (Razorclaw)
Shifting Feature
Change text to: While shifting, you can make an unarmed strike as an attack and/or bonus action melee attack. You can use your dexterity for its attack roll and damage bonus, and this attack deals 1d4 slashing damage (or more, should your regular unarmed attack damage be higher).


If I were to create a scorpion-like class, I would skip another +1 ability increase and add a poison-effect on hit that scales with level, DC 12 (CON) + prof. modifdier, damage 2d6 (at 6th: 4d6, at 11th: 6d6, at 17th: 8d6), target is poisoned for d4 rounds and is usable once per long rest only.

[Giant2005]

Divine Smite cannot work on the sting because unarmed strikes are not melee weapons, nor as off-hand attacks. Them being unarmed strikes solves 90% of my problems

The errata messed up Unarmed Strikes incredibly well, but I think the current ruling is that although they are not weapons, they are still weapon attacks. If that is correct, then you can smite with your firsts all you like as they do not require weapons, but do require you to be making weapon attacks.

[Markoff Chainey]

The errata messed up Unarmed Strikes incredibly well..

Not just the errata.. if you look at my post - both shifter subraces make use of a natural weapon and once it is explicitly a melee weapon attack and once an unarmed attack.. that's just not thought through. (like some of the "sage" advise tweets)

[Giant2005]

Not just the errata.. if you look at my post - both shifter subraces make use of a natural weapon and once it is explicitly a melee weapon attack and once an unarmed attack.. that's just not thought through. (like some of the "sage" advise tweets)

It didn't really matter due to Unarmed Strikes being considered a weapon back then.