Playing a game soon, and i need some help deciding what to play.

[Kafka]

My friends are starting to stumble back into wanting to play DnD, over the other table top games we've been playing, and with so many choices I find it hard to make up my mind. We are playing 3.5, and the world is taken from a previous game we played, where my old character destroyed most of the prime material to save the rest of the universe. Any-who..

These are the classes I'm interested in, so links to builds using them would be lovely. We have a set list of things we can use, so if need be, I can post what prestige classes I am allowed to take as well.
Incarnate
Totemist
Swordsage
Warblade
Dragon Fire Adept
Dragon Shaman
and Gun Mage

The other person playing is going to play a Troll Kin tinkerer, a front line fighter who, supposedly, will augment his own body.

So yeah, builds, ideas, anything, would be absolutely lovely.

[Kafka]

Please tell me if any other information is needed. I don't think we have any really feat restrictions, other than those inferred by the specific races I can choose from.

[Eisfalken]

I would say, you're going about it all wrong. 3.5 is so flexible that it's actually better to come up with the concept of what you want to play, then find a class that best fits it.

For example, Swordsage and Dragonfire Adept are TOTALLY different in what they do. One is a melee-focused character, the other uses breath weapons and invocations to win. Okay... which is it you want to do?

[Kafka]

I kind've wished to work as a counter balance to his Trollkin. To be honest, I've not gotten to play a long lasting DnD game since the time I destroyed the prime material, and even then I wasn't really happy with my character. I never know what to play.

Since he is playing a front-line fighter, tank, I want to play something that glides with that sort of character, but can still stand on their own. I just don't know how to get to the root of my desire.

[Kafka]

Originally I wanted to play a warblade, or a swordsage, but I hate playing something to similar in role to someone else.

[tadkins]

Gun Mage



I had no idea this was a class! Can you tell me where it's from?

[Kafka]

If you put Gun Mage PDF into a search engine, you'll find its main subject matter. It's a supplement class for the Iron Kingdoms setting.

[BilltheCynic]

There's a bit more information that would be nice for us to know:


What level will you be starting at?
What is the magic level of the setting?
Which books are allowed?
What setting-specific material is allowed?
What are the other party members?
What Tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) (level of optimization) are you shooting for?
How much bookkeeping are you willing to do?


I agree with Eisfalken, come up with a concept or goal first, then try to find a way to build it.

As for the options that you listed, I've never heard of a gun mage in 3.5, but I can link you to some handbooks for the others:


Incarnate (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0)
Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287304-danzibr-s-Totemist-Handbook)
Swordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH)
Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction)
Dragon Fire Adept (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15686.0)
Dragon Shaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214007-3-5-Dragon-Shaman-Handbook)


Though, if you really don't know what to play, I would suggest playing a Changeling (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Changeling) Factotem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272130-Getting-the-Facts-Straight-A-Factotum-Handbook-(WIP-PEACH))/Chameleon (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=135.0). "I couldn't decide what to be, so I decided on everything."

[Kafka]

1. Has not been established, I assume 1 - 3, most likely 1 if anything.
2. Magic is everywhere, divine magic is a tad different, as the connection between the celestial realm, and this worlds universe has been shattered. There is still divine magic though.
3. No clear way I can answer this one. So far, only races, and classes are restricted. So the books the classes I've listed, are clear for the most part.
4. This is a setting of his own creation, borrowing from other settings.
5. As of now, the other party member is going to be playing a Trollkin Tinkerer, focusing on front line fighting, and self augmentation via his machines.
6. Four to three.
7. We are playing through Roll20, so I'll be able to keep track of everything electronically, so I can try anything. Me remembering all of my options is the only problem.

My goal is to have fun more than anything, I'm just terrible at crafting builds. Worse due to not knowing all of my limitations.

[BilltheCynic]

My goal is to have fun more than anything, I'm just terrible at crafting builds. Worse due to not knowing all of my limitations.

Again, you should come up with a general concept, and then ask for help making a build that fits that concept. If you're having a hard time deciding on a concept, look through some of the handbooks I linked and see if anything there makes you say, "Hey, that looks fun!" Alternatively, you can think back on recent media that you've seen and look for cool characters from them that you might want adapted to DnD.

If you still can't decide on a concept, seriously go either straight factotem or factotem/chameleon. The former is the ultimate "jack of all trades" class and very SAD, so it can easily be adapted to different concepts and it will always have a use in the party thanks to trapfinding and being the skillmonkey king. the latter can change its class features from day to day, so if you don't like one style of play you can just shift to another the next day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

From what you've said, I'd suggest going with the incarnate and just going straight incarnate 20.

It gives you a fair variety of options without getting overwhelming and you only have to remember what you've given yourself for the day during any individual encounter.

If you're looking at the classic archetypes (warrior, expert, mage, priest) then incarnate falls primarily into the expert archetype. He has a unique method of empowering himself to use a wide variety of skills and a number of options for attacking foes that are slightly more situational than the warrior's "I hit it with my stick (sharp or otherwise) until it stops trying to eat me," unless of course you setup as a warrior incarnate.

As for build advice, the handbook linked by blithesynic isn't bad.

[Kafka]

Incarnate, I will give that a closer look.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Incarnate, I will give that a closer look.

The important thing to remember is that you shouldn't let that decidedly lack-luster chassis fool you. He's more than capable of getting all his numbers where they need to go.

[MisterKaws]

A quick thing to note is that LN and NG Incarnates can get a weirdly huge amount of immunities, so your guy could swap to a tank just by sleeping for a bit.

[tadkins]

If you put Gun Mage PDF into a search engine, you'll find its main subject matter. It's a supplement class for the Iron Kingdoms setting.

Thanks for sharing that info. Looks like a really interesting class. I'd play one. xD

[Fizban]

If you have a specific allowed prestige class list (or anything, it sounds like your list could refer to a number of fields) we should probably see it, otherwise we're gonna be throwing prestige classes and other stuff left and right without any warning. Like I'm doing right now:

I'll throw in on Chameleon as a possibility as well, but not Factotum-> Chameleon: Factotum wants to stay in class and doesn't support Chameleon well at all, Chameleon wants to enter on-time and full speed ahead while Factotum wants to wait until 8th, and so on. Incarnate or Incarnate/Totemist-> Chameleon is plenty fine though (and most likely Rogue 1 to meet the skills).

Chameleon takes quite a while to get going so you want to make sure your entry build is solid and can stand on it's own, with just a little support from low-level spells. You can enter with basically Anything 4+Rogue 1 depending on if you want more skills, combat, or other stuff. If you're not actually sure about it though, I'd recommend against.

Incarnate 3/Totemist 2 with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat has room for a lot of numbers and soulmelds, and you could use Open X Chakra via Chameleon's floating feat to pick up whatever bind you need on a given day. Sadly it's nigh impossible to get all the skills for Chameleon jammed in there (I'm sure someone can do it with enough feats/flaws/variants but eh). It should be a great base to take into Crusader as well (and you can just take the Open X Chakra feat for whatever bind you want the most later), though amusingly that does basically give you the "same character concept" as you're a melee specialist who enhances their combat via body-bound magical constructs, heh. That's why the Chameleon might be nice: you can play "sage" by pulling out cleric spells or pillaging/purchasing spellbooks and using the plentiful sources of knowledge bonuses to know things, and if you cram in some actual caster levels (even with Duskblade: channel your Chameleon spells!) you can float item creation feats and play artificer.

For a skilly/sneak attacky incarnum related build (no multiclass needed for incarnum races), consider the Umbral Disciple prestige class: at 3rd (ECL 8th) they get a combination of hide in plain sight and constant miss chance (not darkness, not illusion, you need to ignore visual concealment itself to beat this). Reduced sneak attack progression (3/10 instead of 5/10) but you can bail at 3rd if you just want the main ability. Basically I just think it's the best hide in plain sight option ever.

Back to the entry builds/prestige classes that stand on their own theme: how about Divine Crusader? Enter with any +7 BAB and some change, pick a domain and cast it based on charisma. Or Hellreaver: it won't win any optimization awards (especially not sitting next to Hellfire Warlock), but if those numbers look big enough to matter in your games then I think it's a perfectly solid class that brings the "healing while hitting" much more easily than Crusader- you enter with any +5 BAB with Power Attack and some change.

Personally, I would recommend against Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman. The Adept doesn't have enough interesting invocations for my taste and it's endgame breath effects have too many penalties, while the Shaman is just plain underpowered against it's most obvious peers.

Oh, and if you're not already using at least fractional BAB, get that in before you do pretty much anything. Truncated BAB (normal) punishes every single prestige class that's not full BAB, and wrecks multiclass skill or generalist builds because every class will start with +0 and tank your BAB.

[Kafka]

Here are all the prestige classes we are allowed to use.

Alienist, Complete Arcane

Animal Lord, Complete Adventure

Argent Savant, Complete Arcane

Beastmaster, Complete Adventure

Bloodclaw Master, Book of the Nine Swords

Bloodhound, Complete Adventure

Bloodstorm Blade, Book of the Nine Swords

Daggerspell Mage, Complete Adventure

Daggerspell Shaper, Complete Adventure

Deepstone Sentinel, Book of the Nine Swords(change dwarf requirement to home realm earth)

Dread Pirate, Complete Adventure(all bonuses apply to type of vessel had when 1st level taken, airship, sailing, sand ship, etc. and can only apply when commanding such vessels)

Dungeon Delver, Complete Adventure

Enlightened Fist, Complete Arcane

Exemplar, Complete Adventure

Geometer, Complete Arcane

Ghost-Faced Killer, Complete Adventure

Highland Stalker, Complete Adventure

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Complete Arcane

Jade Phoenix Mage, Book of the Nine Swords

Master of Many Forms, Complete Adventure

Master of Nine, Book of the Nine Swords

Master Transmogrifist, Complete Arcane

Mindbender, Complete Arcane(Arcane caster level 5th or Manifestor level 5th with Charm Psionic)

Ruby Knight Vindicator, Book of the Nine Swords(change Wee Jas to Duchess Hilda)(Diamond Knight Vindicator change Wee Jas to Duchess Anat)(Emerald Knight Vindicator change Wee Jas to Duke Elias)

Shadowmind, Complete Adventure

Spymaster, Complete Adventure

Street Fighter, Complete Adventure

Tempest, Complete Adventure

Thief-acrobat, Complete Adventure

Wayfarer Guide, Complete Arcane

Wild Mage, Complete Arcane

[Ortesk]

Ruby Knight, Jade Pheonix, and IotSV is all wins in my book. You mentioned warblade on your list. Warblade/Wizard/Jade pheonix is a ton of fun, with great fluf

Cleric/Crusader/Ruby knight is one of the most lethal combos in dnd

[Kafka]

Ruby Knight, Jade Pheonix, and IotSV is all wins in my book. You mentioned warblade on your list. Warblade/Wizard/Jade pheonix is a ton of fun, with great fluf

Cleric/Crusader/Ruby knight is one of the most lethal combos in dnd
How do either of those build out, is there a page for them?

[Ortesk]

How do either of those build out, is there a page for them?

http://dndtools.pw/classes/jade-phoenix-mage/ is the JPM, Basically just go Warblade 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Wizard 4.

End up as a CL 17 (9th level spells, yay) with a BAB of 15, and an really sweet gish abilities. The last 4 levels could be abjurant champion if you bribe the dm.

The RKV has a mess of handbooks. It is one of the cheesiest classes around, and with ur-priest (if you can get it) gets 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers, and has a bab of I think 18

[Kafka]

I'll see if I can get that out of him, he is pretty protective of this world he has built though.

[MisterKaws]

NOPE is the JPM, Basically just go Warblade 1/Wizard 5/JPM 10/Wizard 4.

End up as a CL 17 (9th level spells, yay) with a BAB of 15, and an really sweet gish abilities. The last 4 levels could be abjurant champion if you bribe the dm.

The RKV has a mess of handbooks. It is one of the cheesiest classes around, and with ur-priest (if you can get it) gets 9th level spells, 9th level maneuvers, and has a bab of I think 18

Don't link to that stuff.

Also, you'd be better off with a Wu-Jen JPM, although it gets cheesy real fast, and thinking a bit deeper about it, you'd be kind of like a copy of the Monkey King.

[Kafka]

So, the more I look at this jade phoenix I like it, any advice on feats?

[Kafka]

Thank you all for the information thus far, by the way, I had no idea which direction to go till I Got all this help.

[Ortesk]

So, the more I look at this jade phoenix I like it, any advice on feats?

For spells, get them buffs. Greater magic weapon, enlarge person, stoneskin, ect (i dislike polymorphing because it makes me feel silly being a hydra when I am a heavily trained warrior)

Pick up utility spells if you like, or if you have no other caster. Just make sure the group knows you won't blast and slash (the reason that is important is, blasting blows and it is less cheese to focus on making the warblade the active class and not the wizard)

I like the general feats for a warblade, use power attack, and shock trooper. Those are good, solid feats and who needs ac when you have displacement/invisibility/whatever boost you want. Use level 6 to pick up Martial Maneuver: something from the devoted spirit line, and level 12 to pick up Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades.

You can become real big, real fast. You can become real strong, and real good at hurting and not being hurt. Thicket of blades will open up new uses for that build

[Kafka]

What do you think of going spiked chain? OR maybe a glaive? Can you trip after a bullrush done through charging minotaur?

[Ortesk]

What do you think of going spiked chain? OR maybe a glaive? Can you trip after a bullrush done through charging minotaur?

Spiked chain is always popular, but requires a more focused build than I think it is worth. Spiked chain+stand still is perfectly good though (I know tripping rocks, but you are going to stretch a bit thin) and bullrush is only really useful with dungeon crasher. But I believe you can if you have any actions left.

[Kafka]

I was thinking about that fact too, I don't want to deal with trying to force that build together with this. I'm prolly going to be strangled for feats as is.