intresting concequences of experience reward formula

[ayvango]

Experience reward is doubled for each +2 Encounter Level. So if 20th level party invites 1st level mule and equips it with some splash weapon, it would 345600 / 5 (party size) for normal difficulty encounter. That is sufficient for becoming 20th level character, but the mule could progress only single character level. Extra experience could be converted to gold at 1:5 ratio. It made encounters much more profitable than normal 80000 gold. And you lose only 1200 XP total (300 XP per party member).

[AvatarVecna]

Experience reward is doubled for each +2 Encounter Level. So if 20th level party invites 1st level mule and equips it with some splash weapon, it would 345600 / 5 (party size) for normal difficulty encounter. That is sufficient for becoming 20th level character, but the mule could progress only single character level. Extra experience could be converted to gold at 1:5 ratio. It made encounters much more profitable than normal 80000 gold. And you lose only 1200 XP total (300 XP per party member).

You're also going to run into another problem: namely, you can't gain XP from encounters where you have no business being in such a fight. A Ranger 20 plowing into a group of Hobgoblin Warrior 1s isn't going to get any XP for killing them, no matter how many there are...and even if there's enough of them to kill the Ranger, none of them will get XP for winning either. It's a very weird little quirk of the RAW XP rules.

[DarkSoul]

There is no way a 1st level character of any kind will have any effect whatsoever on level 20 encounters in a normal d20 game with regards to giving or receiving experience.

[ayvango]

Just give him proper weapon (splash is good - you could not miss with them) and guard him. After it deals any damage you could beat the monster without his further help.

[AvatarVecna]

Just give him proper weapon (splash is good - you could not miss with them) and guard him. After it deals any damage you could beat the monster without his further help.

It doesn't matter what the level 1 donkey does in the combat featuring lvl 20 characters; the threats they're facing aren't going to provide any experience, because it's too high a threat level for the donkey to get any XP.

[ayvango]

It doesn't matter what the level 1 donkey does in the combat featuring lvl 20 characters; the threats they're facing aren't going to provide any experience, because it's too high a threat level for the donkey to get any XP.
Is that official rule?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Just give him proper weapon (splash is good - you could not miss with them) and guard him. After it deals any damage you could beat the monster without his further help.

This is not a video-game. If it's 8 or more levels off of your level, you don't get -any- experience for havinig "participated" in the fight, per the table in the DMG. A DM -could- choose to award an ad-hoc XP award to the mule but I doubt most DM's would do that at all and I'm nearly certain that almost, if not outright, none of them would ad-hoc award the creature enough to advance it that far.

Also note that mules don't advance at all. The line in the mule statblock for advancement is null (-).

[Sliver]

Check the xp table on page 38. It doesn't cover xp for challenges more than 8 levels above your level, and references you to assigning ad hoc xp awards.

"[...] an encounter in which the PCs defeat something far above their own level (CRs higher than their level by eight or more) was probably the result of fantastic luck or a unique set of circumstances, and thus a full XP award may not be appropriate. You're going to have to make these decisions."

It falls into the DMs hands to determine what is appropriate.

Though I'm not sure why a mule would be getting experience anyway...

[ayvango]

Also note that mules don't advance at all. The line in the mule statblock for advancement is null (-).
I mean just create spare character. Or hire an NPC. Not the mule in the animal sense. Mule in the character sense.



If it's 8 or more levels off of your level, you don't get -any- experience for havinig "participated" in the fight, per the table in the DMG.

That is sad. But that would still work for 30th level characters and 11th level mule. Because wizards was too lazy to paint tables for all levers and give direct formula for levels not covered in the table.



This is not a video-game.

Why not to take the best from both worlds?

[AvatarVecna]

Is that official rule?

In fact, it is. The rules for gaining XP from combat are detailed on pages 36-40 of the DMG. Here's the official process for determining XP gained from combat:



Determine each character's level. Don't forget to account for ECL (see Monsters as Races, page 172) if any of the characters are of a powerful race.
For each monster defeated, determine that single monster's Challenge Rating.
Use table 2-6: Experience Point Awards (Single Monster) to cross-reference one character's level with the Challenge Rating for each defeated monster to find the base XP award.
Divide the base XP award by the number of characters in the party. This is the amount of XP that one character receives for helping defeat that monster.
Add up all the XP awards for all the monsters the character helped defeat.
Repeat the process for each character.

To summarize in Plain English, XP gained is officially determined by comparing a character's ECL to a monster's CR, using Table 2-6 on page 38 of the DMG. Looking at that chart, we see that characters with ECL 1-3 cease gaining XP from defeating monsters of CR 11 or higher, while characters of ECL 9+ receive no XP from defeating monsters with CR equal to or less than their ECL minus 8. This is because encounters you can curbstomp don't really teach you anything, and encounters where you get curbstomped don't teach you anything other than "don't pick fights with monsters that can curbstomp you".

[AvatarVecna]

That is sad. But that would still work for 30th level characters and 11th level mule. Because wizards was too lazy to paint tables for all levers and give direct formula for levels not covered in the table.

This still isn't true; the marks on the table introduce the rule that you can't gain XP from monsters whose CR is more than 8 away from your ECL in either direction; that they didn't fill the table out all the way to level infinite doesn't mean there's any level where those rules get broken. When two characters fight together and there's a difference of 17+ between their ECLs, they literally cannot both get XP from the encounter.

[ayvango]

This still isn't true; the marks on the table introduce the rule that you can't gain XP from monsters whose CR is more than 8 away from your ECL in either direction; that they didn't fill the table out all the way to level infinite doesn't mean there's any level where those rules get broken. When two characters fight together and there's a difference of 17+ between their ECLs, they literally cannot both get XP from the encounter.

That marks relies only to marked levels. That is not universal rule, it just some tiny addition put into "**" clause.

[gooddragon1]

You're also going to run into another problem: namely, you can't gain XP from encounters where you have no business being in such a fight. A Ranger 20 plowing into a group of Hobgoblin Warrior 1s isn't going to get any XP for killing them, no matter how many there are...and even if there's enough of them to kill the Ranger, none of them will get XP for winning either. It's a very weird little quirk of the RAW XP rules.

Not technically true:


**The table doesn't support awards for encounters that individually are eight or more Challenge Ratings over the character's levels. If the party is taking on challenges that far above their level something strange is going on and the DM needs to think carefully about awards rather than just taking them off a table. See Assigning Ad Hoc XP page 39

However, we can infer from the mathematical progression what the XP would be (the table may not support it, but it doesn't say 0 there). The part I'm not understanding is the GP from XP. There's no way that happens normally.

[AvatarVecna]

That marks relies only to marked levels. That is not universal rule, it just some tiny addition put into "**" clause.

Those marks are referencing a rule that's literally on the next page. And I quote:


Assigning Ad Hoc XP Awards

An encounter so easy that it uses up none or almost none of the PCs' resources shouldn't result in any XP aware at all, while a dangerous encounter that the the PCs overcome handily through luck or excellent strategy is worth full XP. However, an encounter in which the PCs defeat something far above their own level (CRs higher than their level by eight or more) was probably the result of fantastic luck or a unique set of circumstances, and thus a full XP reward may not be appropriate.

High-level PCs gaining XP for easy encounters isn't really defined (what kind of encounter counts as too weak for XP is handwaved with a vauge "uses up non or almost non of the PCs' resources"), but it's specifically called out for low-level characters fighting something out of their league: if the monster's CR is 8 or more higher than your ECL, the general XP guidelines are not appropriate. Should they get XP? Maybe, and I probably would give them some XP if I was the DM, but the point is that, as far as RAW is concerned, this is "DM Judgement Call" territory, so RAW no longer gets a say in things.

Like I said, I'd probably give them XP if I was the DM, but the point is that you can't claim that RAW is weird for giving XP to a Rogue 1 when it helps a Rogue 20 fight the Tarrasque, because RAW does not give XP to that Rogue 1; is says whatever XP they get is purely DM judgement.

[ayvango]

The part I'm not understanding is the GP from XP. There's no way that happens normally.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a.

You could use willing creature XP to create magic items and cast spells.

[gooddragon1]

Those marks are referencing a rule that's literally on the next page. And I quote:



High-level PCs gaining XP for easy encounters isn't really defined (what kind of encounter counts as too weak for XP is handwaved with a vauge "uses up non or almost non of the PCs' resources"), but it's specifically called out for low-level characters fighting something out of their league: if the monster's CR is 8 or more higher than your ECL, the general XP guidelines are not appropriate. Should they get XP? Maybe, and I probably would give them some XP if I was the DM, but the point is that, as far as RAW is concerned, this is "DM Judgement Call" territory, so RAW no longer gets a say in things.

Like I said, I'd probably give them XP if I was the DM, but the point is that you can't claim that RAW is weird for giving XP to a Rogue 1 when it helps a Rogue 20 fight the Tarrasque, because RAW does not give XP to that Rogue 1; is says whatever XP they get is purely DM judgement.

This is the most reasonable outcome. However, in the case of what I like to call "A semi-computer DM". In the absence of a given number the scdm will look at the table and say: "The numbers double for every 2 CR above the character level, therefore the amount of XP awarded == ((CR-ChrLvl)/2) * GivenXpForEqualCR". Computerish enough to blindly follow a formula, human enough to deduce a formula off the table's logical progression rather than returning null.

Perhaps I shall call the scdm... mandroid (but maybe not, to avoid copyright).

[AvatarVecna]

This is the most reasonable outcome. However, in the case of what I like to call "A semi-computer DM". In the absence of a given number the scdm will look at the table and say: "The numbers double for every 2 CR above the character level, therefore the amount of XP awarded == ((CR-ChrLvl)/2) * GivenXpForEqualCR". Computerish enough to blindly follow a formula, human enough to deduce a formula off the table's logical progression rather than returning null.

Perhaps I shall call the scdm... mandroid (but maybe not, to avoid copyright).

Certainly not an unreasonable conclusion. My point is about the "interesting consequences" the OP was commenting on are not the pure RAW they thought they were, but were at best a DM judgement call blindly following a formula...which isn't how a pure RAW or pure RAI game would go.

I probably wouldn't award so much XP for such an encounter (since it's unlikely the characters actually would've learned so much in the fight), but I'd probably give them a good bit; even a fraction of the XP a Tarrasque gives out is still a significant chunk of XP for low level characters.

[ayvango]

There are enough of computerish DM, they uses encounter calculators instead of papers and pencils.

I personally prefer to replace the formula. Exponential advancement is too fast, I use cubic instead. It nicely scales to large level gap.