Do any of you play elves? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

magicalmagicman

2016-04-23, 01:15 AM

torrasque666

2016-04-23, 01:15 AM

AvatarVecna

2016-04-23, 01:20 AM

So Play a variant elf? Plenty with no con loss. Grey elf, Fire elf, ect. Base elfs, kinda garbage. But they get better

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0 all LA 0 races. Whole slew of elves

Grey Elf at least also has the Con penalty; the Str -2/Int +2 are in addition to the normal stat changes, not replacing them. The Con penalty is only gone if it specifically says it replaces the normal stat changes.

That said, having played a fair number of Venerable Grey Elves Wizard, both IRL and here in the forum, I can't say I suffered overly much for the Con penalty; there's ways around the normal issues, and having high level spells helps (doing it from 1st lvl can be risky, though).

Vizzerdrix

2016-04-23, 01:21 AM

Eeeeew. No.

Ortesk

2016-04-23, 01:22 AM

Don't all variant elves have -2 Con as well?

edit: Just checked, all the good ones have -2 Con.

Depends the build. Grey elves are amazing wizards. Snow elves rock as archers. Wood elves make my favorite beserkers. 1 Hp/level doesn't matter with a FB that much

ayvango

2016-04-23, 01:25 AM

I want to due to their longevity, but the -2 CON just seems insanely detrimental. I'm dying too much as it is with 14con.

Snow elves from the frostburn takes -2 Cha instead of -2 Con.

You can also play necropolitan elf, it requires no constitution.

Troacctid

2016-04-23, 01:25 AM

Dragonborn Gray Elf is one of my go-to races for Int-based casters. Bonus to a primary casting stat, penalty to the dumpest of dump stats, and flight as an extraordinary ability.

Ortesk

2016-04-23, 01:26 AM

Grey Elf at least also has the Con penalty; the Str -2/Int +2 are in addition to the normal stat changes, not replacing them. The Con penalty is only gone if it specifically says it replaces the normal stat changes.

That said, having played a fair number of Venerable Grey Elves Wizard, both IRL and here in the forum, I can't say I suffered overly much for the Con penalty; there's ways around the normal issues, and having high level spells helps (doing it from 1st lvl can be risky, though).

Good catch on that one, always thought that they were - str, + int. didn't realize it was -Str, -Con, +int, +dex.

Still loses con, but easier to look at than a lesser tiefling.

ayvango

2016-04-23, 01:27 AM

Fly is pretty cheap with graft (10 000 gold). I think that mind aspect is more useful.

AvatarVecna

2016-04-23, 01:27 AM

Good catch on that one, always thought that they were - str, + int. didn't realize it was -Str, -Con, +int, +dex.

Still loses con, but easier to look at than a lesser tiefling.

I've only caught it because I use the race so much; a core LA +0 race with an Int bonus is golden in my book, especially since it upgrades my first caster build (elven mystic theurge).

eggynack

2016-04-23, 01:28 AM

The loss of constitution sucks, but elven generalist substitution levels are sweet enough to justify it. You combine that with domain wizard and you're acting like a better version of a specialist, before even accounting for the fact that you're not specializing. Then you add in the fact that you get an intelligence bonus (if you pick the right sub-race), and you're swimming in spells. Definitely worth the cost.

Marlowe

2016-04-23, 01:45 AM

Good catch on that one, always thought that they were - str, + int. didn't realize it was -Str, -Con, +int, +dex.

Still loses con, but easier to look at than a lesser tiefling.

http://i.imgur.com/kM8voYy.jpg

HunterOfJello

2016-04-23, 01:52 AM

I play elves. The con decrease isn't as bad if you make sure you don't get hit.

The Gray Elf bonus to Int is very nice (+1 to DC on all spells!).

I got used to them while playing Neverwinter Nights where they get a very awesome racial skill of being able to use Search while moving at full speed (instead of half).

Kelb_Panthera

2016-04-23, 02:07 AM

I tend toward changelings as my default but I'll use an elf now and again if they have something I want. The racial proficiencies can be nice for a gish, for instance, and it's required for some classes (barring a certain changeling, racial feat). I'll even consider it for character development reasons if I want to shoot for a particular narrative and the DM is ammenable to working with me.

I don't share the distaste of some for this or any of a number of other things. Not the best =/= "teh suxorz," no matter how quickly hyperbole becomes "common wisdom" on the internet.

Ortesk

2016-04-23, 02:10 AM

http://i.imgur.com/kM8voYy.jpg

Until the tiefling opens her mouth, with her average of 8 charisma and says "I cast magic missile at the darkness"

Charisma does not equal looks, as hot a demon lady is...no overcoming the whole eating kittens in public thing.

Marlowe

2016-04-23, 02:22 AM

Until the tiefling opens her mouth, with her average of 8 charisma and says "I cast magic missile at the darkness"

Charisma does not equal looks, as hot a demon lady is...no overcoming the whole eating kittens in public thing.http://i.imgur.com/4wqutZ5.jpg

Ortesk

2016-04-23, 02:25 AM

http://i.imgur.com/4wqutZ5.jpg

I read that in a snarky british voice. Also, bring the other one back. She didn't hurt my feelings as bad. The second one totally dumped Cha

Marlowe

2016-04-23, 02:41 AM

I read that in a snarky british voice.

Seriously. And?:smallconfused:

tropical_punch

2016-04-23, 05:17 AM

I'd like to point out that Necropolitan and Faerie Mysteries Initiate are both lovely ways to ignore the HP downsides of a low CON score (and they get even more fun when you combine them).

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 05:48 AM

I agree that the standard 'high' elf is pretty bad, but elves have some pretty neat variants. Fire Elf and Gray Elf are wonderful for casters (elven generalist), especially with Dragonborn tacked on, arctic or painted elves make decent archers and meleeers, and even half-elves have a handful of options that make them worth using (half-elf bard substitution levels, for one).

nedz

2016-04-23, 06:15 AM

A lot of players have a fixation with playing characters with Con 14+, for survivability, but I don't find this to be all that important - you just have to choose a different tactical style. If you don't get hit: HP are irrelevant.

Elves have some nice PrCs and make good characters of various types - just not front line fighters.

Soranar

2016-04-23, 06:29 AM

Sometimes a PrC will force you to play an elf

Also the proficiencies are not bad for certain builds

other than that it's not a very optimal race unless you plan around it (necropolitan, dragonborn, etc)

darksolitaire

2016-04-23, 06:31 AM

As a result of some phantasmal killer shenanigans and reincarnation my human master spellthief ended up as an elf. I managed to roll a subrace that increases dex and doesn't decrease con so I ended up with a net gain.

Bayar

2016-04-23, 06:57 AM

I want to due to their longevity, but the -2 CON just seems insanely detrimental. I'm dying too much as it is with 14con.

If all you are looking for in a race is longevity, then you could play something that is virtually immortal instead. Elans and Warforged come to mind.

As for elves, it's always nice to play the pointy eared guy in the party.

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 07:42 AM

If all you are looking for in a race is longevity, then you could play something that is virtually immortal instead. Elans and Warforged come to mind.

Also, Killoren and possibly jermlaines.

INoKnowNames

2016-04-23, 08:40 AM

Also, Killoren and possibly jermlaines.

Where is it stated that Fey don't age?

....those are fey, right? I think Killoren have their own aging, mind.... Been meaning to ask this for a while; now's just the time.

KillingAScarab

2016-04-23, 09:36 AM

Where is it stated that Fey don't age?

....those are fey, right? I think Killoren have their own aging, mind.... Been meaning to ask this for a while; now's just the time.The text at the top of the racial traits section on page 103 of Races of the Wild says they mature in about 10 years, live long lives and their appearance doesn't change much in their first century. Page 104 in "Power Groups" says that ther are elder killoren which have "walked among the humanoid races for a hundred years or more." The vital statistics on page 106 says they age normally through the old age category, but can live indefinitely without any further changes to their physical or mental attributes. In order to be comparable to an elf's starting age, you have to start at old age adjustments, but you don't have a maximum life span.

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 09:37 AM

Where is it stated that Fey don't age?

....those are fey, right? I think Killoren have their own aging, mind.... Been meaning to ask this for a while; now's just the time.

Killoren explicitly don't age. Jermlaines may not, depending on how the DM rules it: this online article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030411a) is quite clear in that fey immortality (of lack thereof) is determined by the DM.

Psyren

2016-04-23, 09:44 AM

In addition to the fully immortal races, there are also other races that simply live for a long time. Dwarves, Gnomes, and Planetouched (Aasimar, Tieflings, Sylphs, Oreads, Undines, Ifrits) can all live for hundreds of years. Drow and Dhampir can too but they have the same Con issue.

Coidzor

2016-04-23, 11:21 AM

Can't say I as approves of knife ears, no.

If you want to be long-lived, have you considered embracing Lord Io in your next life? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-%28WIP%29)

Draconium

2016-04-23, 11:31 AM

Personally, while I understand that some of the subraces have nice stats and that their abilities can really be a boon, I've never really liked playing elves. Not for any particular reason, either. It just never appealed to me.

If you want to be long-lived, have you considered embracing Lord Io in your next life? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-%28WIP%29)

This is a good point - True Dragons may not be the easiest things to play, but barring misfortune (and adventurers), they can easily live 2,000-3,000 years or more. Granted, they aren't immortal, but they're some of the longest-lived mortal races as a result. They can easily outlive those pointed-eared apes.

mabriss lethe

2016-04-23, 12:15 PM

I don't play them often, though Deepwyrm Half-drow is sometimes winds up in my bag of useful tricks.

Afgncaap5

2016-04-23, 12:27 PM

I like playing elves, though I've been enjoying trying my hand at hobbit life a bit more lately. My most recent elves were an out-of-the-book standard PH elf who was a Necromancer/Knight Phantom who acted as the party's front-line fighter (and only mounted fighter) who never really suffered due to the Con penalty or the d4 hit die.

I also once had a character concept where I got DM permission to "be an elf" but use mostly human stats by virtue of living in and growing up in a mostly human society (so, basically have all the human mechanical things going on but be susceptible ranger attacks, slaying arrows, and other magic that generally affected humans.) The "immune to sleep effects" issue didn't really occur to either of us, but it also didn't come up in that campaign, fortunately.

As far as immortality is concerned... I've always wanted to play a character with the Wedded To History feat.

Psyren

2016-04-23, 12:37 PM

This is a good point - True Dragons may not be the easiest things to play, but barring misfortune (and adventurers), they can easily live 2,000-3,000 years or more. Granted, they aren't immortal, but they're some of the longest-lived mortal races as a result. They can easily outlive those pointed-eared apes.

True Dragons are big targets though. I'd wager that actually comparatively few of them even make it to old age/twilight.

Coidzor

2016-04-23, 12:49 PM

True Dragons are big targets though. I'd wager that actually comparatively few of them even make it to old age/twilight.

Even more reason to go with the superior Steel, because they don't play the standard big target hoard game.

Psyren

2016-04-23, 01:09 PM

Even more reason to go with the superior Steel, because they don't play the standard big target hoard game.

I'm not sure those are even True Dragons (I don't see them on the RotD list) but regardless - even without hoards, they're still major targets. Draconomicon for instance contains a number of items you can make out of their body parts.

Telok

2016-04-23, 01:13 PM

Every so often I'll pull out an elf cleric with the War and Elf domains as a combo healer/archer. A +1 Collision Compound Longbow, divine True Strike, and Manyshot (basic, not greater), plus some of the basic CoDzilla stuff is pretty good. DMM Reach Spell is helpful and Revenence/Revivify is a nice combo.

It's decent ranged damage output (generally 1d8 + ~10 per arrow at entry level PO) with full cleric options available if you need to save the party's bacon.

Coidzor

2016-04-23, 01:19 PM

I'm not sure those are even True Dragons (I don't see them on the RotD list) but regardless - even without hoards, they're still major targets. Draconomicon for instance contains a number of items you can make out of their body parts.

They're. Dragons. They advance to great wyrms. They live a **** long time. So they're not in a book that may have predated their update to 3.5 or they were overlooked by the notoriously poor editors WOTC used.

They're extra casty and extra shapeshifty from a young age and it's nonsensical to insinuate they can't be adventurers because they'd get harvested for their organs during char gen or that they'd be any more or less likely to be gruesomely murdered in the epilogue of a given campaign.

Psyren

2016-04-23, 01:31 PM

They're. Dragons. They advance to great wyrms. They live a **** long time. So they're not in a book that may have predated their update to 3.5 or they were overlooked by the notoriously poor editors WOTC used.

Don't shoot the messenger :smalltongue: I'm not the one who wrote that rule.

They're extra casty and extra shapeshifty from a young age and it's nonsensical to insinuate they can't be adventurers because they'd get harvested for their organs during char gen or that they'd be any more or less likely to be gruesomely murdered in the epilogue of a given campaign.

I never said they can't be adventurers. I'm saying that if random citizen X was offered the chance to live as a true dragon (any true dragon), that there are plausible in-universe reasons to have misgivings or decline. They're merely possibilities, not certainties, but they do exist nonetheless.

Kyberwulf

2016-04-23, 01:34 PM

I am surprised no one has mentioned Drow. I usually play them. Not to be a knock off of any particular character. Just to be different. Drow or Grey Elves are my favorite.

Waazraath

2016-04-23, 01:40 PM

I want to due to their longevity, but the -2 CON just seems insanely detrimental. I'm dying too much as it is with 14con. Once, I think, in the entire time I played 3.x (from the beginning up til now); but it was really at the beginning, when I didn't optimize much, and on a character I rolled something like 18 17 16 16 14 12 as stats...

eggynack

2016-04-23, 01:46 PM

I am surprised no one has mentioned Drow. I usually play them. Not to be a knock off of any particular character. Just to be different. Drow or Grey Elves are my favorite.
Well, the thread seemed optimization oriented, and drow are quite bad. +2 LA is a massive downside, and on a base that's only marginally better than a lesser aasimar (or other lesser planetouched, if you want different ability score buffs).

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 02:04 PM

Well, the thread seemed optimization oriented, and drow are quite bad. +2 LA is a massive downside, and on a base that's only marginally better than a lesser aasimar (or other lesser planetouched, if you want different ability score buffs).

To be completely fair: drow do have more support than the non-core races combined, or at least not that much less.

Troacctid

2016-04-23, 02:04 PM

Well, the thread seemed optimization oriented, and drow are quite bad. +2 LA is a massive downside, and on a base that's only marginally better than a lesser aasimar (or other lesser planetouched, if you want different ability score buffs).
To be fair, if you're using lesser planetouched, you're probably also using lesser drow, which compare just fine against high elves.

Savage Progression drow are also legitimately the #1 best elf subrace if you don't bother with the racial levels.

LudicSavant

2016-04-23, 02:08 PM

Sadly the elf is one of the weaker races in the PHB, and this serves as something of a deterrent just as it does for half-orcs and half-elves.

eggynack

2016-04-23, 02:25 PM

To be completely fair: drow do have more support than the non-core races combined, or at least not that much less.
Not exactly sure what support means in this context. Does it translate into being worth +2 LA? Cause I'm doubtful.

To be fair, if you're using lesser planetouched, you're probably also using lesser drow, which compare just fine against high elves.
True. Still lesser aasimar are really just a race that's close enough in terms of abilities to make the comparison efficient. They're not a significantly overpowered race, so you can just use the transitive property of power to make the comparison more fitting. Like, it's non-trivial to compare human to drow, but we can say that I'd want to take human over lesser aasimar in some arbitrary set of situations, and wouldn't mind the swap in some arbitrary other set, so because drow has abilities on par with lesser aasimar, we can call those abilities on par with human, and then note the +2 LA. Human won't always be lesser aasimar comparable in power, but we can select some not issue laden race that is comparable in the majority of cases.

LudicSavant

2016-04-23, 02:52 PM

To be fair, if you're using lesser planetouched, you're probably also using lesser drow, which compare just fine against high elves.

One should not overlook that high elves lack Light Blindness, which is both considerably more severe and more costly to negate than Light Sensitivity.

Being blinded and then dazzled in sunlight or similarly bright lights, with no save, is a deadly disadvantage. It can be negated by a few means, but those means are themselves disadvantages for a drow. For example, if you take the "Daylight Adaptation" feat, the race description might as well have read "lose a feat." Basically the inverse of the Human's crowning feature.

KillianHawkeye

2016-04-23, 03:12 PM

One should not overlook that high elves lack Light Blindness, which is both considerably more severe and more costly to negate than Light Sensitivity.

Being blinded and then dazzled in sunlight or similarly bright lights, with no save, is a deadly disadvantage. It can be negated by a few means, but those means are themselves disadvantages for a drow. For example, if you take the "Daylight Adaptation" feat, the race description might as well have read "lose a feat." Basically the inverse of the Human's crowning feature.

OR you could just buy nonmagical sunglasses for 10 gp........ from Sandstorm, I think?

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 03:15 PM

LudicSavant

2016-04-23, 03:26 PM

OR you could just buy nonmagical sunglasses for 10 gp........ from Sandstorm, I think?

Races of the Dragon. In addition to negating light blindness, they give a bonus on saving throws against gaze attacks and impose penalties on spot and search. Not entirely sure, but having low-light vision/darkvision might negate these penalties.

You are both sorely mistaken. Those negate light sensitivity, and do nothing at all for light blindness.

Sundark goggles negate the dazzled condition experienced by a creature with light sensitivity while in bright illumination.

zergling.exe

2016-04-23, 03:38 PM

You are both mistaken. Those negate light sensitivity, and do nothing at all for light blindness, which is an entirely separate effect.

Sun Lenses in Sandstorm prevent you from being dazzled from bright light. So while those wouldn't protect you from being blinded on round 1, they would prevent being dazzled on subsequent rounds.

LudicSavant

2016-04-23, 03:51 PM

Sun Lenses in Sandstorm prevent you from being dazzled from bright light. So while those wouldn't protect you from being blinded on round 1, they would prevent being dazzled on subsequent rounds.

If you actually want to negate light blindness so that you aren't getting blinded with no save by all kinds of things, you could use a Raptor's Mask (3500gp, MiC). But that still costs 3500gp (so no good during early levels) and takes up a high-value item slot (losing access to powerful options like Third Eye Clarity for 3000gp, MiC).

Inevitability

2016-04-23, 03:56 PM

eggynack

2016-04-23, 04:02 PM

If you actually want to negate light blindness so that you aren't getting blinded with no save by all kinds of things, you could use a Raptor's Mask (3500gp, MiC). But that still costs 3500gp (so no good during early levels) and takes up a high-value item slot.
But those kindsa things are all relatively weak otherwise, and see little play. And it looks like being outside, or having such an effect otherwise, is a weirdly good defense, given that you need some abrupt exposure, and being in bright light constantly is a good defense against new exposure. Now, you may claim that casting daylight is a huge cost, especially given the fact that any target is going to have a really good defense, but if that's the case, why are your opponents casting it? Either it's an actually good and worthwhile spell to be tossing about, or it isn't. And honestly, if my opponent wants to spend a 3rd level spell and likely a round to give one member of my party a single round of blindness, I'm more than fine with that. Seems like a really good exchange, especially because you can always use that round for a buff or something. Also, the whole item slot thing is overrated, given that you can combine items in slots if you want.

Edit:
Note that technically, you should be able to create an item with the same properties that doesn't take up a slot. The prize would double, but it'd be worth it.
The combining slots method is inevitably cheaper, as it only costs 1.5x the lower cost ability. So, you're paying a premium of 1,750 GP maximum.

Eldariel

2016-04-23, 04:06 PM

Mechanically Elves have a couple of things going on for them:
1) Some great unique options (Elf Generalist Wizard, Elf Ranger Substitutions, Olin Gisir, Eternal Blade, Elf domain, etc.)
2) Some niche options (Arcane Archer, Champion of Corellon)
3) Their inherent weapon proficiencies are decent on low levels, particularly in builds like Cleric Archer
4) Access to a variety of useful stat combinations on a useful chassis - while the Con-penalty is fairly problematic, it can be born with or circumvented (Necropolitan, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Unholy Toughness, damage immunity, etc.) and without shapeshifting, Dex can be equally important
5) Incredible lifespan which can be relevant for some builds/scenarios; their various random bonuses add up to some benefit too, particularly the perception modifiers
6) On the less standard play level, the largest number of Martial Weapon Proficiencies gained through standard races making them the race with access to the largest number of feats if using Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle or similar

Fluff-wise, yeah, I love creating Elven characters. I feel the various Elven races are very interesting to explore in terms of what it truly means to live for 600 years and what a society with such a ridiculously low birthrate truly looks like. If I make a new character where the mechanics permit it, the chances of it being Elven are around 50%.