Seven to one odds and win?

[Oddgamer]

So... I've got an RP that I'm running for the first time in 5e, and I'm trying to work out a rather strange scenario. I've got seven player characters who are going to be taking on an NPC. I'm hoping to basically make the NPC as a normal character. The kicker is that this NPC should actually win the fight against all seven lower level PCs, and the PCs are already fourth level (might be fifth by the time they reach said NPC). Keep in mind that the NPC should be entirely solo and simply that much nastier, better, stronger than the PCs that he'll wipe the floor with them. Any ideas on what that NPC should be (classes/levels) to make success a likelihood?

Edit: I realize I could just throw in a level 20, but I'm trying to find the minimum level that could manage this (or, at least, something that leaves plenty of room for advancement beyond, in fact beyond the mentor himself) as defeating this mentor should not be the end of the campaign but merely the intro into something so much worse.

(FWIW: The idea is that the NPC will become their mentor of sorts, a patron, and possibly down the road they'll try taking him out again. ... What? It's a campaign of evil characters!)

[hymer]

So... I've got an RP that I'm running for the first time in 5e, and I'm trying to work out a rather strange scenario. I've got seven player characters who are going to be taking on an NPC. I'm hoping to basically make the NPC as a normal character. The kicker is that this NPC should actually win the fight against all seven lower level PCs, and the PCs are already fourth level (might be fifth by the time they reach said NPC). Keep in mind that the NPC should be entirely solo and simply that much nastier, better, stronger than the PCs that he'll wipe the floor with them. Any ideas on what that NPC should be (classes/levels) to make success a likelihood?

(FWIW: The idea is that the NPC will become their mentor of sorts, a patron, and possibly down the road they'll try taking him out again. ... What? It's a campaign of evil characters!)

How high a level would be acceptable? Because I can't see any level 20 character not wiping the floor with seven level 4s if played with the appropriate tactics.

[Oddgamer]

How high a level would be acceptable? Because I can't see any level 20 character not wiping the floor with seven level 4s if played with the appropriate tactics.

I'm trying to get as low as possible while still managing to win. The reason is that I don't want the party taking out their mentor to be the end of things, it's... just the start to the next phase. The typical 'taking out the bad guy just makes things worse' scenario. As such they're going to need room for advancement beyond that point, perhaps quite a bit of it.

[hymer]

In that case, some... flexibility? ... may be called for. First, you can make sure the scene can be 'discarded'. It was not, as it turns out, the encounter you're now aiming at, it was some powerful assassin, whom the PCs managed to best. Reward them appropriately for their skill/luck. You shouldn't get it wrong very many times.

Second, if you play with hidden dice rolls, you could simply tot up the damage the PCs deal as they deal it. At the end of the fight, you will know how much HP the NPC must have at the least. Then build the character from that.

[wunderkid]

What are their perceptions like?

Rogue two for cunning action.

Cloak of elven kind.

20 in dex.

By level 10 will be netting you

+13 to hide before rolling. And reducing their passive perceptions by 5 / giving them disadvantage on active checks they make. Unless they are built to spot you then you 'should' beat them with every stealth check you make.

Make sure the place they fight you is good for this, lots of cover, heavy mist, dense Forrest etc.

To play it fairly you can have a map for the group and a map behind your screen, once you hide then move you can keep track of where you are in case the group starts throwing random fireballs to try and hit you.

For me personally I'd go rogue 2/bard X.
And use spells like suggestion, phantasmal force, dissonant whispers illusion spells. Make him almost like a wise prankster. Pitting them against each other and jumping at shadows until they are too exhausted to fight.

(i may be biased because this is basically the character I'm playing right now, the demon clown, but it's a whole load of fun and could make an amusing mentor)

[wunderkid]

Assuming a wis class is in the group with an 18 and proficiency.

Their passive perception should be sitting at 10+4+(2/3). 16/17. Then minus 5 for disadvantage. So 11/12 passive. Or disadvantage and +6/7 to the roll.

This also gives the group a way to kill the mentor later, by getting their hands on any item that gives advantage perception they counter the disadvantage.

[Firechanter]

First off, 5E with its Bounded Accuracy scales mostly by Hit Points, then by Action Economy.
A party of 7 level 4s has 7 attacks per round and, very roughly, 250HP between them.
You should certainly take care to do this while they are still level 4, because at level 5 everybody's power virtually doubles.
This would be much easier if you had a normal-sized party of 3-5.

For some reason I'm thinking Monk. They may not be very attractive as PC class, but I find them very appropriate for the "wise mentor" trope, especially an ass-kicking kung fu mentor who first shows his future students his place. Lastly, defeating them with bare hands allows you to plausibly knock them out with nonlethal damage.

So, what level would be the absolute minmum to knock them all out? I'm thinking probably at least 10, but better 12 or even 14 (the latter will make him practically immune to any magic they can throw at him).

Do you also want to use standard PC Point Buy, or would it be acceptable to just give him 14s to 18s across the board?

Alternatively, if you want to make short work of them, just use a Cleric with upcast Spirit Guardians. Probably Cleric 9 would already suffice; 5d8 Radiant every round is not something a level 4 can endure for long. Cast the spell, followed by Sanctuary. Done.
Of course, a Lore Bard 10 could pull the same trick. Your choice which of these would be a better mentor for your party.

[wunderkid]

First off, 5E with its Bounded Accuracy scales mostly by Hit Points, then by Action Economy.
A party of 7 level 4s has 7 attacks per round and, very roughly, 250HP between them.
You should certainly take care to do this while they are still level 4, because at level 5 everybody's power virtually doubles.
This would be much easier if you had a normal-sized party of 3-5.

For some reason I'm thinking Monk. They may not be very attractive as PC class, but I find them very appropriate for the "wise mentor" trope, especially an ass-kicking kung fu mentor who first shows his future students his place. Lastly, defeating them with bare hands allows you to plausibly knock them out with nonlethal damage.

So, what level would be the absolute minmum to knock them all out? I'm thinking probably at least 10, but better 12 or even 14 (the latter will make him practically immune to any magic they can throw at him).

Do you also want to use standard PC Point Buy, or would it be acceptable to just give him 14s to 18s across the board?

Alternatively, if you want to make short work of them, just use a Cleric with upcast Spirit Guardians. Probably Cleric 9 would already suffice; 5d8 Radiant every round is not something a level 4 can endure for long. Cast the spell, followed by Sanctuary. Done.
Of course, a Lore Bard 10 could pull the same trick. Your choice which of these would be a better mentor for your party.

Yeah I agree with this, making a character who will stand and fight will either trivialise the encounter as it will need a lot of hp/aoe damage. Or run the risk of being steamrolled.

The monk is a good take on the mentor position from a fluff perspective, although even at level 10 his ac is only going to be around the 18/20 mark though and that's with 18 in both dex and wis, they should all have about +6 to hit. Unless he has massively upscaled health they should make short work of him within a couple of rounds just purely on the amount of actions they will be taking vs his one action+bonus action.

Stealth to me seems the only way to handle what you're after, combined with things like suggestion you can effectively turn their own number of actions against themselves. If the suggestion is 'knock your team mates out' then you shouldn't risk any PKs.

Also you did say it was an evil group right? So a monk may not fit the evil mentor vibe as well as a roguey manipulatey mastermind (who can also be used as a plot device I.e. suggesting something to a king or noble to send a carriage with magical item to a safer location, then getting the group to ambush it en route)

[Lolzyking]

11 battlemaster fighter 3 swashbuckler rogue.

Disarm them with disarming strike. use a net to restrain them. Give him defensive duelist, defensive fighting style.

He should hands down dominate their martials.

if you have more casters than martials I reccomend a level 11 long death monk

[NewDM]

Rogue 2 / Wizard 7
Wizard's greater invisibility spell makes hiding possible anywhere. The NPC would run up and sneak attack using Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade then use their special bonus action to disengage. Throw in the mobility feat and they don't even have to use their special bonus action. They can simply walk away and use the bonus action to hide. You can also give the rogue complete concealment or total obscurement, whatever its called and allow them to re-hide after every attack like the above poster mentioned.

You'll have to watch out for readied attacks though, technically they won't know what space the character is in if they fail their perception checks and could hit an empty square. Throwing out a fireball or two to soften the party up first on their turns and then re-hiding with the special bonus action would probably do it.

The only way you can build a character that can take out a party is with spells.

[Giant2005]

What about Sorcerer 4/Bard 10? Take Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys as your Magical Secrets. Get Fire Shield up ASAP, and then cast a high level Quickened Armor of Agathys 2 out of 3 rounds (you will need to use your bonus action on the 3rd round to replenish your Sorcery Points).
The party will defeat themselves - just make sure you do it before they get to level 5 and can cast Dispel Magic.

[NewDM]

What about Sorcerer 4/Bard 10? Take Fire Shield and Armor of Agathys as your Magical Secrets. Get Fire Shield up ASAP, and then cast a high level Quickened Armor of Agathys 2 out of 3 rounds (you will need to use your bonus action on the 3rd round to replenish your Sorcery Points).
The party will defeat themselves - just make sure you do it before they get to level 5 and can cast Dispel Magic.

Fire shield is horrible damage. It averages to 9 damage per hit. The NPC will be long dead by the time the melee attackers go down. Armor of Agathys is 5 damage out of a 1st level slot and 25 damage out of a 5th level slot. Both require melee attacks to trigger. So what happens after the first few hits and the party just swaps to ranged attacks?

[Giant2005]

Fire shield is horrible damage. It averages to 9 damage per hit. The NPC will be long dead by the time the melee attackers go down. Armor of Agathys is 5 damage out of a 1st level slot and 25 damage out of a 5th level slot. Both require melee attacks to trigger. So what happens after the first few hits and the party just swaps to ranged attacks?

Take Wind Wall as a magical secret too I guess.

[NewDM]

Take Wind Wall as a magical secret too I guess.

Wind wall only blocks arrows. It does nothing to cantrips. The rest of the party can simply wait the thing out, until its spells are gone.

[Giant2005]

Wind wall only blocks arrows. It does nothing to cantrips. The rest of the party can simply wait the thing out, until its spells are gone.

That's not really an issue. A couple of people with crappy sub-5 Cantrips aren't going to last very long against a level 14 Caster's cantrip return-fire.
Once the casters have been dropped, the others can wait around all they like - it would be a little anti-climactic to just have them gunned down without bothering to retaliate, but the goal will still have been achieved.

[wunderkid]

The rest of the team will manoeuvre, and not to mention the cantrips will still pop the armour of aga making it very easy for the melles to run in and finish him off.

You either need some AC cheese so they are only hitting you on a 19/20. Or hiding.

Someone else mentioned rogue/wizard. That works too, I just personally prefer the bard for more expertise and mind game spelled with greater invisibility too and both classes are great with dex+cha. But most full casters/rogue 2 should achieve what you're trying to do. Magic is the way to go imo though, you may have to get creative if you don't want to just fireball them into submission.

I guess it depends do you want a brawn of a mentor or a brain?

[Foxhound438]

long death monk would work if you have him level 11ish and fight the party while they're level 4.

otherwise any caster can get wall spells to section off the party and deal with them one or two at a time; bladelock for that reason might be the way to go, using fiend patron for wall of fire, as well as being able to target the 4 dumbest looking members with a single 5th level hold person. Darkness shenanigans might be hard for your party to deal with as well.

If you go with the warlock idea, I recommend having the guy at L13 for forcecage.

[Foxhound438]

Fire shield is horrible damage. It averages to 9 damage per hit. The NPC will be long dead by the time the melee attackers go down.

against PC's with like 40 hp? Don't get me wrong, 4 turns is still a long time to survive against 7 enemies, but you're a 10th level bard. you have spells like polymorph and animate objects and you can certainly have wall of force to break the fight into a 2 or 3 v. 1. Hell, one wall of fire could OHKO the entire party if they're bunched together.

[AvatarVecna]

You'll want a ranged expert who can snipe them from far away, both to prevent them from using their action economy to its full advantage as well as to keep them from just kiting some kind of tank build. My recommendation would be Rogue (Assassin) of at least 7 levels; equip them with an Oathbow, a Quiver Of Ehlonna, a Stone Of Good Luck, and a Cloak Of Elvenkind, and they'll be virtually undetectable...and quite deadly to boot.

Let's say it's a Wood Elf Assassin 13, with stats of 12/18/14/8/16/8 and the feats Sharpshooter and Skulker. Give them the aforementioned items and expertise in the right skills, and you're looking at a character with advantage on Stealth, Stealth +15, and a minimum of 25 on their total...while they're giving everybody else disadvantage on the roll to locate them. The only way to really hurt them is to throw around AoEs and hope they're in there...except most AoEs offer Dex saves, and their Dex save is +10...and they have Evasion.

EDIT: That isn't even getting into their near-constant advantage, their auto-crits when they surprise somebody, and their +10d6 bonus damage from the bow and SA.

[Giant2005]

If you want to keep it simple and the party composition is favorable for the tactic, a level 9+ Druid or Death Cleric could render the challenge pretty simple with the Antilife Shell spell. I'd recommend a Death Cleric (unless you hate the idea of a Death Cleric as your mentor) due to being able to supplement their damage with Spiritual Weapon. Then again, a level 10 Bard could do the same thing thanks to his magical secrets.

There is something else to consider though, anything (like the idea I just proposed) that relies on ranged or magic damage, might accidentally kill your players. You need someone inflicting melee damage or using debilitating, non-damaging effects in order to subdue them safely. Although the Death Cleric is obviously good to have around if things do go horribly wrong - not only could he resurrect someone if things went particularly awry, but he could Spare the Dying two people at once to better ensure things don't go that far.

If you want the safety of melee damage, then going with a stealthy route is the safest bet, if not a little too cheap. I get the impression you want this encounter to be much grander than that, so I think Paladin levels are a must. If you can't keep the NPC safe with stealth, then he simply needs to break their action economy by downing as many key targets as fast as possible. The burst damage of a Paladin will do that.
Do you guys use point buy or roll? If point buy is your way, then Paladin 6, Fighter 2, + a few Bard levels might come close to doing the trick - especially if he is a Half-Orc. Use your highest level spell slot on Hold Person to target as many people as you can, and smite them all with your highest remaining spell slots for critical damage. It should down enough of them to get the odds more favorable for the single npc. If you roll for stats (and then can fudge them a little for the sake of the NPC), then you can overcome the MADness to add a couple of Monk levels to the mix for two rounds of Flurry of Blows (and 4 extremely valuable early Smites).

If you want the fight to be as close to a traditional beat down as possible, then combining Resistance with Heavy Armor Mastery would be extremely effective against the low damage of a bunch of level 4s, although that is virtually impossible to combine without using Stoneskin or Investiture of Stone. However, if there is an extremely common damage type among your players (slashing seems fairly common), you could choose to just resist against that one type fairly easily. A Fighter 1/Fiend (Blade) Warlock 12 would do pretty well. It would have Heavy Armor Master, Resistance to their most common damage form, and really respectable melee damage (especially if he has Polearm Master). Just make sure you don't give any hints about him resisting only one damage type, or your players will simply adjust and destroy him. You might want to take Magic Initiate (or a level of Bard/2 levels of Paladin) in order to pick up Heroism - it would help such a build a lot and is subtle enough to not ruin the look of an old fashioned beat-down.

[Kid Jake]

I think I'd go Barbarian(Berserker)7/Fighter(Battlemaster)3 and Nova right off the bat. Using Action Surge, Frenzy and Sweeping Attack you should be able to lay out a LOT of hurt in the opening round to several different PCs, potentially dropping one or two before they get a chance to dogpile you.

[NewDM]

against PC's with like 40 hp? Don't get me wrong, 4 turns is still a long time to survive against 7 enemies, but you're a 10th level bard. you have spells like polymorph and animate objects and you can certainly have wall of force to break the fight into a 2 or 3 v. 1. Hell, one wall of fire could OHKO the entire party if they're bunched together.

Yeah, after a round or two of getting damage every time they melee attack, the party will probably back off 5 feet and start doing ranged attacks. Wind Wall doesn't actually block characters so they would just walk through it and continue the ranged attacks on the enemy. Polymorph is concentration and unless you are giving the BBEG the War Caster feat or some seriously high Constitution they will fail their concentration check in 1-2 rounds. Not to mention you can't have wall spells up while polymorphed because they are both concentration.

Best bet is to remain hidden and not be seen. If you can't see the BBEG you can't effectively attack it.

[wunderkid]

Yeah to me hide is the way to go.

A lot of nova suggestions, which seems fine on a character, but a little anticlimactic on a bbeg.

'you walk into the room'
'action surge, quickened, dodecaEblast!'
The group dies. /knocked out thanks to GM powers.
Fight over, did you have fun?

The trickster allows for a more drawn out fight, illusions, role play thrown in as the sneaky git throws his voice and taunts the group. Sets him up as more of a character rather than 'i can kill you good, work for me now'

[mephnick]

I'm not sure there's a way this becomes a satisfying scene, NPC build and action economy aside.

It's the kind of thing that works well in movies but not at the table. I'd be prepared to chuck it if it doesn't feel like it's going to work well.

[Marcelinari]

I second the Death Cleric suggestion. Especially if you're willing to give him a couple of magic items. At his base, an 8th level Death Cleric can do 2d6 (greatsword) + 1d8 (necrotic damage) + 5 (strength) + 21 (channel divinity), for an average of 37.5 damage, with any necrotic damage unresistible. He can only do this twice, but PCs with any sense of self-preservation will back off after the first massive strike. And that's just basic melee damage.

If you give him a greatsword of wounding(?) it adds 1d4 necrotic damage and makes magical healing have a chance to fail, making the PCs waste their action economy and reinforcing their reluctance to enter melee. Give him adamantine half-plate for a half-decent AC and immunity to lucky crits. He's a psychological terror.

That's not even counting the spells, either. As other people have mentioned, spirit guardians is a strong AOE effect, and vampiric touch is a way to heal himself while also continuing the damage output. There's all the usual cleric tricks to run through, and if the players hesitate from the massive damage output, you'll have the time to use them.

Again... At 8th level.

[Slipperychicken]

In 5e, solo bosses get legendary actions and legendary resistance. Two or three times per round they can do something outside their turn, and three times in a day they can "nope" out of a failed save. That's how they can be balanced against the large number of actions the PCs get.

[wunderkid]

I second the Death Cleric suggestion. Especially if you're willing to give him a couple of magic items. At his base, an 8th level Death Cleric can do 2d6 (greatsword) + 1d8 (necrotic damage) + 5 (strength) + 21 (channel divinity), for an average of 37.5 damage, with any necrotic damage unresistible. He can only do this twice, but PCs with any sense of self-preservation will back off after the first massive strike. And that's just basic melee damage.

If you give him a greatsword of wounding(?) it adds 1d4 necrotic damage and makes magical healing have a chance to fail, making the PCs waste their action economy and reinforcing their reluctance to enter melee. Give him adamantine half-plate for a half-decent AC and immunity to lucky crits. He's a psychological terror.

That's not even counting the spells, either. As other people have mentioned, spirit guardians is a strong AOE effect, and vampiric touch is a way to heal himself while also continuing the damage output. There's all the usual cleric tricks to run through, and if the players hesitate from the massive damage output, you'll have the time to use them.

Again... At 8th level.

Right crunching some basic numbers and looking at the death cleric.

Lvl8 cleric.
Hp: 66
Ac:18
To hit: +8 with your 20 str

Average level 4 fighter:
Hp: 42
Ac: 19-21
To hit: +6

So when the fight kicks off you can expect half of them to act before you.

So let's say 3 do, lets say their average damage is d10+4. 9/10.

Means out of those three attacks you're looking at averaging about 12 damage total.

Then the cleric gets his attack. Has a 35-45% chance to hit. And on average won't kill the fighter even if he does.

The remaining 4 then act for an average of 16 damage total.

So almost half of the clerics hp in a single turn, without using a single resource. And the cleric only has about a 50% chance of even even hitting. If the group then use their action surges. That average damage becomes 56. if they all had something like polearm master or used any other CDs like battle master manoeuvres then that could very well be a turn 1 kill.

Of course they won't all be fighters, I was just using them as a baseline. Can look at a group of wizards, with magic missle
4d4+4 damage each. 14 on average per casting. So even just 6 of them (because you kill one before he can cast) that's 84 guaranteed damage. Dead cleric turn one.

There's a good chance the group could come out of this encounter completely unscathed and drop the cleric round 1.

Oh I just noticed you gave him half plate. That's likely only ac 15/16. So even more chance of beating him turn 1.

I can't speak for all players but just because a baddie lands a big hit on a single person that almost never leads to 'backing off'. The fact that 50% of the time the cleric will do absolutely nothing at all makes it a pretty laughable bbeg.

[Marcelinari]

That's fair. There's a fine line between 'powerful enough to beat 7 PCs and leave them alive' and 'powerful enough to instantly destroy 7 PCs with no chance of retaliation'. I erred on the side of caution.

There are ways to get around them problem, though. Maximize (or double maximize) his health. Give him undead minions instead of some spell slots (it's like precasting animate dead, I guess, no chance you'll use all of them in a fight). Give him a few more levels of death cleric, why not? 8th level was the level when he starts to pump out that much damage, it's not a hard limit.

In my experience, which admittedly is relatively limited when it comes to 5e (and I'm by no means a very tactical player), when the fighter goes from 42 health to 2 health in a single blow, and the cleric shows no signs of fatigue (because as the GM, you don't actually have to describe that they're doing any damage until he drops), I would back off and try and determine if the fight is winnable at all.

[MaxWilson]

So... I've got an RP that I'm running for the first time in 5e, and I'm trying to work out a rather strange scenario. I've got seven player characters who are going to be taking on an NPC. I'm hoping to basically make the NPC as a normal character. The kicker is that this NPC should actually win the fight against all seven lower level PCs, and the PCs are already fourth level (might be fifth by the time they reach said NPC). Keep in mind that the NPC should be entirely solo and simply that much nastier, better, stronger than the PCs that he'll wipe the floor with them. Any ideas on what that NPC should be (classes/levels) to make success a likelihood?

In a similar scenario (lone PC vs. 7 hobgoblins) I've seen Shadow monks do really well. They're mobile enough and sneaky enough that they clean up in archery duels (they negate the first hit, and it's hard to hit twice at disadvantage).

If you want to be really nasty, make it a Wood Elf Shadow Monk 7/Rogue 2 fighting in natural terrain. Between Cunning Action (Hide) + PWT + Stealth Expertise + Mask of the Wild, monk mobility, Evasion, and sneak attack damage with his 2/round longbow, the monk will clean their clocks... but it will take him long enough to do so that they'll have plenty of time to surrender. Win/win from a DM perspective.


Rogue 2 / Wizard 7
Wizard's greater invisibility spell makes hiding possible anywhere. The NPC would run up and sneak attack using Green-Flame Blade or Booming Blade then use their special bonus action to disengage. Throw in the mobility feat and they don't even have to use their special bonus action. They can simply walk away and use the bonus action to hide. You can also give the rogue complete concealment or total obscurement, whatever its called and allow them to re-hide after every attack like the above poster mentioned.

You don't need to disengage if you're already invisible. Opportunity attacks can only be made against targets that you can see.

[smcmike]

Use the environment. The BBEG needs a way to split up the PCs and neutralize them a couple at a time. This could start simply enough with him getting a couple of them alone before they know he's against them. Also - high places from which PCs can fall, narrow walkways on which only one can face him at a time, lots of cover, and an escape route or twin case things get too hot.

[HoarsHalberd]

Werebear, bear totem, half-orc barbarian, with a houserule at extra attack and multiattack stack. Level 12. 20 Strength, 20 Con, 16 dex. 3 attacks, immunity to non-silvered, non-magical weapon attacks, resistance to all other damage except psychic. 12+11d12+60hp. 21 AC if he uses a shield. Should rip through them like a hot knife through butter.

[wunderkid]

Werebear, bear totem, half-orc barbarian, with a houserule at extra attack and multiattack stack. Level 12. 20 Strength, 20 Con, 16 dex. 3 attacks, immunity to non-silvered, non-magical weapon attacks, resistance to all other damage except psychic. 12+11d12+60hp. 21 AC if he uses a shield. Should rip through them like a hot knife through butter.

He did say as a normal character. This is so full of cheesy houserule I'm not sure if I should slap it on some bread and call it a werebear pizza.

[Giant2005]

This is so full of cheesy houserule I'm not sure if I should slap it on some bread and call it a werebear pizza.

You sure shouldn't do that. Everyone knows that cheese on bread is a simple sandwich, or maybe a grilled cheese. Pizzas don't use bread.

[wunderkid]

Pizza is a kind of bread. And cheese is a kind of meat. A tasty yellow treat.

[HoarsHalberd]

He did say as a normal character. This is so full of cheesy houserule I'm not sure if I should slap it on some bread and call it a werebear pizza.

Fine, take out the multi-attack stacking and it's a normal char built from the MM and PHB.

EDIT: Although if you want a normal char, long death monk who spams dodge using Ki to whittle everyone down.

[JellyPooga]

It kinda depends on the circumstances. If this NPC has the initiative, a single Fireball could be enough to scare the group into submission. 8d6 damage is nothing to sniff at when you're level 4. Anyone with d6 or d8 HD is only looking at what? Somewhere in the region of 25-35hp, assuming that everyone has a decent Con score? Unless someone has really sprung for a HP build and gone with something like a Hill Dwarf Barbarian with maxed Con for 50+ hit points at level 4, that 8d6 (range: 8-48, average: 28) is scary. Even if they make the Dex Save for half, 14hp out of 30 is still pretty scary when you consider it only took the guy one action to practically halve the entire parties HP.

A level 5 Sorcerer with Quicken Metamagic can open with a Quickened Fireball and follow it up with a Twinned Firebolt for a further 2d10 damage against any two PC's that didn't take much of a hit from the Fireball (or who had a significantly higher HP). That's a significant amount of hurt, both AoE and targeted, for a single round.

[MaxWilson]

You sure shouldn't do that. Everyone knows that cheese on bread is a simple sandwich, or maybe a grilled cheese. Pizzas don't use bread.

Pizzas don't use bread.

I use bread.

-Chuck Norris

[/meta]

[NewDM]

It kinda depends on the circumstances. If this NPC has the initiative, a single Fireball could be enough to scare the group into submission. 8d6 damage is nothing to sniff at when you're level 4. Anyone with d6 or d8 HD is only looking at what? Somewhere in the region of 25-35hp, assuming that everyone has a decent Con score? Unless someone has really sprung for a HP build and gone with something like a Hill Dwarf Barbarian with maxed Con for 50+ hit points at level 4, that 8d6 (range: 8-48, average: 28) is scary. Even if they make the Dex Save for half, 14hp out of 30 is still pretty scary when you consider it only took the guy one action to practically halve the entire parties HP.

A level 5 Sorcerer with Quicken Metamagic can open with a Quickened Fireball and follow it up with a Twinned Firebolt for a further 2d10 damage against any two PC's that didn't take much of a hit from the Fireball (or who had a significantly higher HP). That's a significant amount of hurt, both AoE and targeted, for a single round.

Its even scarier when the guy shoots a fireball from the shadows dashes into another shadow and hides using their bonus action. You could actually do this with an arcane trickster of level 13. eh... better off taking 6 levels of Wizard and at least 2 levels of Rogue, then you can fireball a few times, invisible a few times, maybe throw out a flaming sphere that you can direct to force the players to move around and take fire damage. Run up sneak attack someone and then run back into the shadows.

[uraniumrooster]

Is there any particular RP-flavor you're going for? Is the NPC a notorious assassin, a powerful mage, an honorable knight? There are a ton of different builds and tactics you could use, so I'd start with the concept you want, then optimize it from there.

Some ideas that come to mind:

I would focus on a strong defensive character for the scenario you described, rather than a glass-cannon nova-round build. I think the battle would be more enjoyable for you and your players if it lasts more than a round or two. It gives more opportunity to actually roleplay the combat, and as a player I'd be more impressed by an NPC who can hold off 7 attackers at once for several rounds, as opposed to one that just takes us all down with one big spell or surprise-round action-surge critfest. The players will feel like they have more agency if they actually get some time to try and do something (even if most of their actions fail to do anything at all).

Definitely get the Lucky feat. In a 7v1 fight, all the players need are a few lucky crits to quickly turn the combat against you no matter your build. Lucky gives you a few get out of jail free cards.

Paladin 6/Sorcerer X can be a defensive powerhouse. Max out your NPC's Charisma for an extra +5 to all saves. I'd go with a Wild Magic Sorcerer for Tides of Chaos, and since you're the DM you can just Wild Surge once a round to keep it recharged. Or, if it's a home game and you're open to Unearthed Arcana classes, a Favored Soul (War Domain) could be a good option too. I prefer starting out as a Sorcerer for proficiency with Con saves then going with a dex-based medium armor build, but starting as a Paladin for the heavy armor proficiency and running with a str-based build can work too. Either way, pick up Shield as one of your Sorcerer spells and you can get your AC up to 25 or 26 as needed for 4 rounds, more if you recharge the spent 1st level slots with Sorcery points. Depending on the magic level in your campaign, it wouldn't be unreasonable for your NPC to have magic armor, a magic shield, or a ring/cloak of protection, etc, which would bump that AC up even further, and the latter boosts your saves even further. 5th level characters would pretty much have to crit on their attack rolls to land a hit, and your NPC should easily pass their spell save DCs. If your players do land a crit, or you roll low on an important save, then just fall back on your Luck Points.

Bladesingers and Abjuration Wizards can be extremely defensive as well, and have the advantage of full casting, but lack some of the fun Paladin bonuses and Sorcery points for recharging spell slots in combat or using meta-magic.

Defensive Duelist is another option for increasing AC using reactions if you don't want to use spell slots, but I prefer Shield as it lasts the full round as opposed to just a single attack (which is a huge advantage in a 7v1 fight).

Others in the thread have already mentioned some other great ideas and I won't rehash all of them, but there are definitely other ways to go about making a defensive character than building for super high AC/Saves. They can't hit what they can't see, so Invis, Greater Invis, Cunning Action hiding, and any other way to break line of sight and conceal your NPC are good ways to go. A character specialized in battlefield control could take the party on in 2-3 smaller groups rather than one big 7v1 fight. The Spirit Guardians/Sanctuary combo is a fun way to deal passive damage and make it so the party has a hard time even targeting your NPC, and it's actually a combo you could use with the Pal-Sorc build if you go the Favored Soul route. Minionmancy could be a fun option if your NPC prefers not to personally engage the characters. Lots of options! Good luck!

[Moo, I'm Human]

This whole thread makes me think of Tarquin's 1v5 on page 851 of OOTs. So I thought maybe a Battlemaster fighter who specialized in defense, who diverts the PC's at each other, and who might taunt the players constantly. Probably Defensive Duelist, and good saves.

[MaxWilson]

Its even scarier when the guy shoots a fireball from the shadows dashes into another shadow and hides using their bonus action. You could actually do this with an arcane trickster of level 13. eh... better off taking 6 levels of Wizard and at least 2 levels of Rogue, then you can fireball a few times, invisible a few times, maybe throw out a flaming sphere that you can direct to force the players to move around and take fire damage. Run up sneak attack someone and then run back into the shadows.

You can also do it using a regular Sorcerer at level 5. Quickened Fireball with your bonus action + Hide with your regular action. By 7th level you can combine it with Greater Invisibility.


I would focus on a strong defensive character for the scenario you described, rather than a glass-cannon nova-round build. I think the battle would be more enjoyable for you and your players if it lasts more than a round or two. It gives more opportunity to actually roleplay the combat, and as a player I'd be more impressed by an NPC who can hold off 7 attackers at once for several rounds, as opposed to one that just takes us all down with one big spell or surprise-round action-surge critfest. The players will feel like they have more agency if they actually get some time to try and do something (even if most of their actions fail to do anything at all).

This is exactly correct. UraniumRooster, I've got my eye on you now as someone to pay attention to in the future. You clearly have the right idea about how to DM: experiencing agency is the core of D&D.

[Carlobrand]

Just as a matter of curiosity, how do you intend to bridge the gap from this guy being an opponent to this guy being a mentor? Something drove your players into a violent altercation with this fellow. Is that something going to have proven false? Will they discover that they were manipulated into this fight by someone else? My experience with players who lose a battle is that they're generally eager for a rematch.

[NewDM]

You can also do it using a regular Sorcerer at level 5. Quickened Fireball with your bonus action + Hide with your regular action. By 7th level you can combine it with Greater Invisibility.

At Sorcerer 5 you can only do 2 quickened spells per encounter. We want the NPC to be able to hide after every attack so it won't get hit.


This is exactly correct. UraniumRooster, I've got my eye on you now as someone to pay attention to in the future. You clearly have the right idea about how to DM: experiencing agency is the core of D&D.

It doesn't matter how defensive you go if the players nova and hit, the NPC will die.

[SearchHunt]

At Sorcerer 5 you can only do 2 quickened spells per encounter. We want the NPC to be able to hide after every attack so it won't get hit.



It doesn't matter how defensive you go if the players nova and hit, the NPC will die.

To me hiding so they can't be hit comes off as a little cheap. Although that's probably the only way to ensure a win. I've seen a level 3 party take down a CR 6 spell caster in 2 rounds.

[NewDM]

To me hiding so they can't be hit comes off as a little cheap. Although that's probably the only way to ensure a win. I've seen a level 3 party take down a CR 6 spell caster in 2 rounds.

Yeah, its the only way to ensure a 'fair' win.

You could just give the NPC infinite hit points and not let the players know.

[uraniumrooster]

At Sorcerer 5 you can only do 2 quickened spells per encounter. We want the NPC to be able to hide after every attack so it won't get hit.



It doesn't matter how defensive you go if the players nova and hit, the NPC will die.

Hiding is just a different defensive approach. On a basic strategy level, we're both saying the same thing: to win the fight, the NPC needs to avoid getting hit.

Either tactic is viable, and both have their vulnerabilities. Really, it comes down to the flavor the OP wants for their NPC.

[NewDM]

Hiding is just a different defensive approach. On a basic strategy level, we're both saying the same thing: to win the fight, the NPC needs to avoid getting hit.

Either tactic is viable, and both have their vulnerabilities. Really, it comes down to the flavor the OP wants for their NPC.

With hiding there is very little chance of getting hit. With a high AC/HP approach you are putting yourself out there and getting hit. A few lucky rolls means the NPC is dead. Somewhere someone did a party DPR by level vs. AC and even against high AC opponents the entire 4 person party was dealing around 100 damage per round at level 4.

[wunderkid]

With hiding there is very little chance of getting hit. With a high AC/HP approach you are putting yourself out there and getting hit. A few lucky rolls means the NPC is dead. Somewhere someone did a party DPR by level vs. AC and even against high AC opponents the entire 4 person party was dealing around 100 damage per round at level 4.

Well a high AC will be just as good. But we are talking ac24 with adamantite. Which is pretty damn hard to achieve without some serious optimization. 18 plate. 2 shield. + buffs I guess? I'm not sure what you can realistically hit with AC without throwing magical items

Stealth suffers the same issue. If their cleric takes their action to look for you and succeeds they can point you out to the group. At which point you become a pin cushion.

Both are viable but a fairly decent AC + stealth seems a lot more survivable rather than an insane AC

[Giant2005]

Well a high AC will be just as good. But we are talking ac24 with adamantite. Which is pretty damn hard to achieve without some serious optimization. 18 plate. 2 shield. + buffs I guess? I'm not sure what you can realistically hit with AC without throwing magical items

Stealth suffers the same issue. If their cleric takes their action to look for you and succeeds they can point you out to the group. At which point you become a pin cushion.

Both are viable but a fairly decent AC + stealth seems a lot more survivable rather than an insane AC

I don't think either really makes a good encounter for the players though. They need to be able to see that they are actually doing something, yet their mentor is strong enough to endure their efforts. Both having no target to attack or having a target to attack but never being able to hit it, just make for a lackluster encounter that is more frustrating than awe-inspiring for the players.
For it to achieve its intended effect, the mentor needs to be able to take a hit, but mitigate the hit enough to be able to defeat them before he is defeated imo.

[wunderkid]

I don't think either really makes a good encounter for the players though. They need to be able to see that they are actually doing something, yet their mentor is strong enough to endure their efforts. Both having no target to attack or having a target to attack but never being able to hit it, just make for a lackluster encounter that is more frustrating than awe-inspiring for the players.
For it to achieve its intended effect, the mentor needs to be able to take a hit, but mitigate the hit enough to be able to defeat them before he is defeated imo.

The problem is doing that without the players just nuking. Assuming you have a level 20 fighter. With 16 con will be on 13 +9x19 = 171.

As posted above a team of 7 wizards will drop him in 2 turns using magic missile doing 84 damage per round. Obviously we don't know his group composition and 7 casters would be overkill.

But there are other effects like hold or reflex for half that may be applicable. Hell even a simple suggestion spell could end the fight round 1

Point is though even with a high AC you're still vulnerable.

Now iirc you couldn't cast suggestion on someone hidden? As you need los for spell effects / guessing the right square?

Would appreciate some clarification on this though as I'm afb atm

[uraniumrooster]

I actually consider the extra +5 bonus to all saves the more important factor in the Paladin/Sorcerer combo. There are any number of defensive tactics to avoid being hit that are all viable, but if the NPC fails a save against a Hold Person, that's game over. Wild Magic Sorcerers can also use Tides of Chaos to gain advantage on a save once per round (or twice, on rounds they cast Shield as a reaction), recharging it with Action Surge. And as a Solo NPC, the Action Surge results that are usually considered bad for PCs are actually helpful.

Plus it still has plenty of offensive power. It can burn a 4th level slot on a Divine Smite and have a good chance of laying out a 5th level character.

I'll plug the Lucky feat again, for whatever build the OP decides to go with. If a high damage melee character rolls a nat 20, or you fail an important save, Luck Points are a completely legal way to fudge your die rolls. lol.


I don't think either really makes a good encounter for the players though. They need to be able to see that they are actually doing something, yet their mentor is strong enough to endure their efforts. Both having no target to attack or having a target to attack but never being able to hit it, just make for a lackluster encounter that is more frustrating than awe-inspiring for the players.
For it to achieve its intended effect, the mentor needs to be able to take a hit, but mitigate the hit enough to be able to defeat them before he is defeated imo.

I definitely agree. This was my original rationale for suggesting the Paladin/Sorcerer build. It has a high AC, but it achieves it mostly by casting Shield as a reaction. The players are likely to still miss, but they're costing the NPC spell slots and can feel like they're still making progress. Within this system, I think it's hard to mitigate enough damage in a 7v1 fight... ultimately, it has to make itself unhittable somehow. But, at least its standing and fighting, letting the players feel like they are active participants with some agency in the combat.

[wunderkid]

Yeah I agree the paladin sorcerer is probably the best option (or paladin/something) for if you want a stand up and fight character. But not necessarily one that will win. One failed save could mean the end for him. But it is pretty solid nonetheless.

Not as likely to succeed as a stealth based character.

But should have good-ish chances if you can cheese his AC up a bit and nuke out their casters first.

[Giant2005]

It is amazingly cheap, but the players will never know exactly how cheap if you describe things well enough, but a Fighter 1 (Or Paladin 2 if you want his melee skills to seem impressive)/Sorc 11 could do the trick very easily if it had the right magic item. That item being the Armor of Invulnerability.
Simply spend your first action to cast a Quickened Globe of Invulnerability and use the Armor of Invulnerability's effect. Then you are immune to both magical and non-magical damage and survival will be a non-issue.
Just make sure you don't let the player's know how invincible he is, or it will suck. Just describe them hitting him with mighty blows, but after being knocked hard, he shrugs it off and pushes through.

[wunderkid]

It is amazingly cheap, but the players will never know exactly how cheap if you describe things well enough, but a Fighter 1 (Or Paladin 2 if you want his melee skills to seem impressive)/Sorc 11 could do the trick very easily if it had the right magic item. That item being the Armor of Invulnerability.
Simply spend your first action to cast a Quickened Globe of Invulnerability and use the Armor of Invulnerability's effect. Then you are immune to both magical and non-magical damage and survival will be a non-issue.
Just make sure you don't let the player's know how invincible he is, or it will suck. Just describe them hitting him with mighty blows, but after being knocked hard, he shrugs it off and pushes through.

That item is a legendary item though generally only found by level 17+ characters. At this point you may as well disregard the whole 'built as a normal character' because legendary items make things pretty insane.

Also the globe will be visible, and one of the group is almost certainly going to succeed an arcana check to know what it is. Knowing may not change the outcome but it definitely could if they have dispells ready etc or someone who can get that lucky hit off and nova to force a concentration etc. It's still a strong tactic. But relying heavily on basically going 'gm God mode activated'.

[Giant2005]

That item is a legendary item though generally only found by level 17+ characters. At this point you may as well disregard the whole 'built as a normal character' because legendary items make things pretty insane.

Also the globe will be visible, and one of the group is almost certainly going to succeed an arcana check to know what it is. Knowing may not change the outcome but it definitely could if they have dispells ready etc or someone who can get that lucky hit off and nova to force a concentration etc. It's still a strong tactic. But relying heavily on basically going 'gm God mode activated'.

Yeah there is no denying the God Mode thing, but they are level 4 characters - they can't dispel anything, and if the mentor isn't taking any damage then he isn't making any concentration checks either.
Plus, assuming that there are only 3-4 casters among them, he should probably be able to take on that many anyway.
You could also ditch the magic item for the sake of being a Lycanthrope and pull off the same effect, as long as the players aren't smart enough to have silvered weapons.

[uraniumrooster]

Yeah I agree the paladin sorcerer is probably the best option (or paladin/something) for if you want a stand up and fight character. But not necessarily one that will win. One failed save could mean the end for him. But it is pretty solid nonetheless.

Not as likely to succeed as a stealth based character.

But should have good-ish chances if you can cheese his AC up a bit and nuke out their casters first.

I donno... while I agree that a stealth character has a better chance of surviving if they just stay hidden and don't actually fight, I don't think they have as good a chance of actually defeating the party in combat. Obviously it depends on the party composition and the skill of the players, but if I tried to throw a solo stealth NPC at my table, they'd get wise pretty quick and throw down some area denial like Spike Growth or something to cover their flanks, then ready actions to cast Blindness, Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Slow, etc, as soon as the NPC broke its stealth to make an attack. Assuming that at least 4 of the 7 characters are casters, that's 4 simultaneous save-or-suck throws all at once, on a stealth character that doesn't have the big save boosts or the ability to give itself advantage.

A Pal-Sorcerer would have to make the same saves, but it would probably have a total +6 or +7 bonus on Dex/Wis saves, and a +10 or +11 on Con saves. Plus, those saves would be spread out through the initiative order, which means they can potentially use and recharge the Tides of Chaos ability to gain advantage on a save or two every round. And you don't even need cheese or magic items to get a 28 AC (Plate & Shield for 20, Defensive Fighting Style +1, Shield of Faith +2, Shield +5). Throw in magic armor +1 and a ring of protection and you're at 30 AC... an average level 5 would pretty much have to roll a crit, even with Bless going. Throw him in Adamantine Armor for some real cheese to make him immune to critical hits.

Of course, either option could use Lucky to re-roll a failed save, but the Pal-sorcerer is much less likely to actually need to re-roll, so it can save its Luck Points for those really bad rolls.

Now, I suppose a stealthy NPC that hangs back out of spell range and uses ranged attacks would be a little different, but in that case I wouldn't bother with stealth at all. I'd just go with a Blastlock with Spell Sniper, Devil's Sight, and Eldritch Spear, sitting back in Darkness and sniping the party from 600 feet away with EB. Probably the most tactically sound option, but also probably the most boring for both players and the DM, IMO.

[wunderkid]

I donno... while I agree that a stealth character has a better chance of surviving if they just stay hidden and don't actually fight, I don't think they have as good a chance of actually defeating the party in combat. Obviously it depends on the party composition and the skill of the players, but if I tried to throw a solo stealth NPC at my table, they'd get wise pretty quick and throw down some area denial like Spike Growth or something to cover their flanks, then ready actions to cast Blindness, Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Slow, etc, as soon as the NPC broke its stealth to make an attack. Assuming that at least 4 of the 7 characters are casters, that's 4 simultaneous save-or-suck throws all at once, on a stealth character that doesn't have the big save boosts or the ability to give itself advantage.

A Pal-Sorcerer would have to make the same saves, but it would probably have a total +6 or +7 bonus on Dex/Wis saves, and a +10 or +11 on Con saves. Plus, those saves would be spread out through the initiative order, which means they can potentially use and recharge the Tides of Chaos ability to gain advantage on a save or two every round. And you don't even need cheese or magic items to get a 28 AC (Plate & Shield for 20, Defensive Fighting Style +1, Shield of Faith +2, Shield +5). Throw in magic armor +1 and a ring of protection and you're at 30 AC... an average level 5 would pretty much have to roll a crit, even with Bless going. Throw him in Adamantine Armor for some real cheese to make him immune to critical hits.

Of course, either option could use Lucky to re-roll a failed save, but the Pal-sorcerer is much less likely to actually need to re-roll, so it can save its Luck Points for those really bad rolls.

Now, I suppose a stealthy NPC that hangs back out of spell range and uses ranged attacks would be a little different, but in that case I wouldn't bother with stealth at all. I'd just go with a Blastlock with Spell Sniper, Devil's Sight, and Eldritch Spear, sitting back in Darkness and sniping the party from 600 feet away with EB. Probably the most tactically sound option, but also probably the most boring for both players and the DM, IMO.

Which is why I suggested rogue 2/bard X, a correctly worded mass suggestion round one could make for an interesting combat and a melle stealth .

And honestly I love it when people do that whole 'readying' trick.

Because 2nd or third round I always throw out an illusion of me rather than doing anything directly offensive. Usually a good way of burning through their resources. They will soon stop wasting them. And a well placed suggestion can lead to them fighting amongst themselves.

Pala/sorc is going to do the trick, if you're not going stealth then this is really the only way you're going to pull it off. But it's still going to be a fight where basically all of their things miss, or every save is made. It will be just as frustrating.

Give the paladin the shield master feat too, mainly for the whole use reaction to take no damage instead of half on a successful dex save.

[NewDM]

I don't think either really makes a good encounter for the players though. They need to be able to see that they are actually doing something, yet their mentor is strong enough to endure their efforts. Both having no target to attack or having a target to attack but never being able to hit it, just make for a lackluster encounter that is more frustrating than awe-inspiring for the players.
For it to achieve its intended effect, the mentor needs to be able to take a hit, but mitigate the hit enough to be able to defeat them before he is defeated imo.

The stealth rogue/wizard combo highlights what it takes to win in 5e. Due to the wildly swingy numbers and rolls affecting things more than character stats, even the best armored or the highest saving character will still fall to a single failed save or a single paladin nova. The Stealth rogue/wizard with greater invisibility can't be targeted by spells that specify 'a creature that you can see', such as blindness/deafness. They gain advantage on stealth checks, attack rolls, and attackers have disadvantage against it.


I donno... while I agree that a stealth character has a better chance of surviving if they just stay hidden and don't actually fight, I don't think they have as good a chance of actually defeating the party in combat. Obviously it depends on the party composition and the skill of the players, but if I tried to throw a solo stealth NPC at my table, they'd get wise pretty quick and throw down some area denial like Spike Growth or something to cover their flanks, then ready actions to cast Blindness, Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Slow, etc, as soon as the NPC broke its stealth to make an attack. Assuming that at least 4 of the 7 characters are casters, that's 4 simultaneous save-or-suck throws all at once, on a stealth character that doesn't have the big save boosts or the ability to give itself advantage.

A Pal-Sorcerer would have to make the same saves, but it would probably have a total +6 or +7 bonus on Dex/Wis saves, and a +10 or +11 on Con saves. Plus, those saves would be spread out through the initiative order, which means they can potentially use and recharge the Tides of Chaos ability to gain advantage on a save or two every round. And you don't even need cheese or magic items to get a 28 AC (Plate & Shield for 20, Defensive Fighting Style +1, Shield of Faith +2, Shield +5). Throw in magic armor +1 and a ring of protection and you're at 30 AC... an average level 5 would pretty much have to roll a crit, even with Bless going. Throw him in Adamantine Armor for some real cheese to make him immune to critical hits.

Of course, either option could use Lucky to re-roll a failed save, but the Pal-sorcerer is much less likely to actually need to re-roll, so it can save its Luck Points for those really bad rolls.

Now, I suppose a stealthy NPC that hangs back out of spell range and uses ranged attacks would be a little different, but in that case I wouldn't bother with stealth at all. I'd just go with a Blastlock with Spell Sniper, Devil's Sight, and Eldritch Spear, sitting back in Darkness and sniping the party from 600 feet away with EB. Probably the most tactically sound option, but also probably the most boring for both players and the DM, IMO.

Faerie Fire might work if readied, but you better hope you don't lose concentration when you get hit. Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person doesn't work if you can't see the target (Greater Invisibility). Then you also better hope they don't Counter Spell you.

The most survivable one yet is still the Greater Invisible Rogue2/Wizard7, simply because near perma stealth that blocks spell targeting shuts down character options.

[uraniumrooster]

The stealth rogue/wizard combo highlights what it takes to win in 5e. Due to the wildly swingy numbers and rolls affecting things more than character stats, even the best armored or the highest saving character will still fall to a single failed save or a single paladin nova. The Stealth rogue/wizard with greater invisibility can't be targeted by spells that specify 'a creature that you can see', such as blindness/deafness. They gain advantage on stealth checks, attack rolls, and attackers have disadvantage against it.



Faerie Fire might work if readied, but you better hope you don't lose concentration when you get hit. Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person doesn't work if you can't see the target (Greater Invisibility). Then you also better hope they don't Counter Spell you.

The most survivable one yet is still the Greater Invisible Rogue2/Wizard7, simply because near perma stealth that blocks spell targeting shuts down character options.

Although, See Invisibility is only a 2nd-Level spell, and requires no Concentration. It's iffy as to whether or not the party would have it prepared, but my players usually keep it ready until they get True Seeing. Out of 7 players, I'd think one would have it.

Faerie Fire also cancels the Greater Invis, so then the Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person readied actions could go off.

[NewDM]

Although, See Invisibility is only a 2nd-Level spell, and requires no Concentration. It's iffy as to whether or not the party would have it prepared, but my players usually keep it ready until they get True Seeing. Out of 7 players, I'd think one would have it.

Faerie Fire also cancels the Greater Invis, so then the Blindness/Deafness and Hold Person readied actions could go off.

Nope. It doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures, it allows you to target them without disadvantage. You still can't actually see the creature. Of course with the lucky feat it would be hard to land Faerie Fire in the first place. Remember they went Rogue first and got dexterity saving throw proficiency. They also likely have a Dexterity of +3 or even +4. With lucky feat that means failing a DC 14 saving throw (the highest they can have at 4th) 2.56% of the time. I just don't see that Faerie Fire landing.

[wunderkid]

Also just wanted to point out that as good as this palasorc seems on paper I could probably 1v1 him as a level 5 with the character I'm currently playing in my game (not at level 4 however.) Which is the rogue/bard (as I've said before I am a little biased towards this build)

Given you're maxing cha to 20. Needing a str of 15 I think for plate and then con. Your notice will be naff.

The one super meta spell ive found that has done so so so much work is heat metal, because it seems everyone wants to walk around in plate in 5e.

I'd most likely win initiative as I've focused dex. I'd also hopefully be hidden already so even losing initiative won't hurt me too much.

I'd cast heat metal.

Hide as a bonus action. Which would be at +10 before rolling.
Vs your 10+3(IF you have proficiency)+1(wis) so 11-14. And if I had a cloak of elvenkind I could hide till the cows come home. Although in reality I only need to make that check for a round or so while I put some distance between us.

Then I could sit and concentrate from a very safe distance and now the pala would be taking 2d8 damage per round with no save. For up to a minute. That's 20d8 damage. On average 90 damage.

It's my favourite way of cooking people who like to abuse plate armour.

If it doesn't do the trick walk back in and rinse - repeat.

If the player group has a couple of bards/druids then this is a quite likely event to occur. Especially the bard. He can cast one turn. If you don't kill/break his concentration that turn he could hide on the next turn. And if he is a full bard he would be doing 3d8 a turn. Honestly I'd be suprised if this spell wasn't floating about in a group of 7 characters. If the team is smart and protects the ones who can cast it then it's going to hurt a lot

[uraniumrooster]

Nope. It doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures, it allows you to target them without disadvantage. You still can't actually see the creature.

Well, See Invisibility certainly does :smalltongue:

As for Faerie Fire, it doesn't allow affected creatures to benefit from being invisible, and I would argue that being unable to be targeted by non-attack spells is certainly benefiting from being invisible. I don't want to get into a RAW/RAI debate though. Different DMs will rule that differently, and in this case, the only pertinent DM is the OP.

There are a lot of great ideas on this thread, and a stealthy Rogue/Wiz using Greater Invis is certainly one of them. But, my point is that without more information about the party composition, PC builds, and player skill, the best course of action is to assume they are perfectly prepared for anything. Essentially, the "optimal" decision assumes everything will go wrong and adjusts for it. A strong defensive build with a high AC and Saves is the most survivable without using spells that have an obvious counter... reduce the PCs' chance-to-hit with attack rolls down to the minimum of 5%, increase the NPC's chance-to-save to the highest degree possible, and use Luck Points and Tides of Chaos to manipulate die rolls as needed.

It also, IMO, has the added bonus of making for a more fun fight, since the players are actually engaged with an enemy they can see, and it provides an opportunity for the DM to introduce and roleplay their new mentor-to-be throughout the combat. Obviously that's a matter of personal taste, but I just don't think being killed by an enemy you can't see makes for a good introduction for what sounds like it's going to be an important NPC.

[Democratus]

Nope. It doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures, it allows you to target them without disadvantage. You still can't actually see the creature. Of course with the lucky feat it would be hard to land Faerie Fire in the first place. Remember they went Rogue first and got dexterity saving throw proficiency. They also likely have a Dexterity of +3 or even +4. With lucky feat that means failing a DC 14 saving throw (the highest they can have at 4th) 2.56% of the time. I just don't see that Faerie Fire landing.

This is why your diviner forces them to fail the save using Foresight.

[uraniumrooster]

Also just wanted to point out that as good as this palasorc seems on paper I could probably 1v1 him as a level 5 with the character I'm currently playing in my game (not at level 4 however.) Which is the rogue/bard (as I've said before I am a little biased towards this build)

Given you're maxing cha to 20. Needing a str of 15 I think for plate and then con. Your notice will be naff.

The one super meta spell ive found that has done so so so much work is heat metal, because it seems everyone wants to walk around in plate in 5e.

I'd most likely win initiative as I've focused dex. I'd also hopefully be hidden already so even losing initiative won't hurt me too much.

I'd cast heat metal.

Hide as a bonus action. Which would be at +10 before rolling.
Vs your 10+3(IF you have proficiency)+1(wis) so 11-14. And if I had a cloak of elvenkind I could hide till the cows come home. Although in reality I only need to make that check for a round or so while I put some distance between us.

Then I could sit and concentrate from a very safe distance and now the pala would be taking 2d8 damage per round with no save. For up to a minute. That's 20d8 damage. On average 90 damage.

It's my favourite way of cooking people who like to abuse plate armour.

If it doesn't do the trick walk back in and rinse - repeat.

If the player group has a couple of bards/druids then this is a quite likely event to occur. Especially the bard. He can cast one turn. If you don't kill/break his concentration that turn he could hide on the next turn. And if he is a full bard he would be doing 3d8 a turn. Honestly I'd be suprised if this spell wasn't floating about in a group of 7 characters. If the team is smart and protects the ones who can cast it then it's going to hurt a lot

My initial idea was actually dex-focused, but I had forgotten Paladins require Str as a multiclassing attribute and can't pick either-or like Fighters. If the OP handwaves that requirement since it's a special NPC, Dex in a Breatplate or Half-plate works better for the build.

Either way though, you're right. Heat Metal is a brutal spell, and definitely a weakness for any metal-armored character. The Paladin could Compelled Duel your Bard to keep you from running, put his Vow of Enmity on you to negate the disadvantage, then hit you with a Divine Smite or two, but would still take some decent damage from it.

Bard and Sorcerer can pull off a lot of similar tricks, really, and Bard/Pally would actually be another good build. Still has the Defensiveness, but gains a little bit more tricksiness. Inspiration/Cutting Words isn't quite as strong as Tides of Chaos/Wild Surge, but fills a similar niche, and Bard definitely excels at skill proficiencies, which fills a gap the Pal-Sorc was lacking.

I'm totally on board with the spellcasting elements of both you and NewDM's builds, I'm just not convinced Rogue adds that much. A Palasorc or Palabard can cast Invisibility and be just as invisible as a Bard/Rogue or Rogue/Wiz. Cunning Action is nice, but in a fight like this I think there are better uses for the Bonus Action, and when you don't have to reserve resources for multiple encounters, Divine Smite can dish out more damage than Sneak Attack, especially when multiclassed to get more spell slots.

[NewDM]

This is why your diviner forces them to fail the save using Foresight.

That won't work. You have to swap a dice before they roll. At which point they can opt to use a Lucky feat point to add a dice roll, assuming they don't have advantage.

[wunderkid]

My initial idea was actually dex-focused, but I had forgotten Paladins require Str as a multiclassing attribute and can't pick either-or like Fighters. If the OP handwaves that requirement since it's a special NPC, Dex in a Breatplate or Half-plate works better for the build.

Either way though, you're right. Heat Metal is a brutal spell, and definitely a weakness for any metal-armored character. The Paladin could Compelled Duel your Bard to keep you from running, put his Vow of Enmity on you to negate the disadvantage, then hit you with a Divine Smite or two, but would still take some decent damage from it.

Bard and Sorcerer can pull off a lot of similar tricks, really, and Bard/Pally would actually be another good build. Still has the Defensiveness, but gains a little bit more tricksiness. Inspiration/Cutting Words isn't quite as strong as Tides of Chaos/Wild Surge, but fills a similar niche, and Bard definitely excels at skill proficiencies, which fills a gap the Pal-Sorc was lacking.

I'm totally on board with the spellcasting elements of both you and NewDM's builds, I'm just not convinced Rogue adds that much. A Palasorc or Palabard can cast Invisibility and be just as invisible as a Bard/Rogue or Rogue/Wiz. Cunning Action is nice, but in a fight like this I think there are better uses for the Bonus Action, and when you don't have to reserve resources for multiple encounters, Divine Smite can dish out more damage than Sneak Attack, especially when multiclassed to get more spell slots.

Breast and half plate still take a minute to take off so the tactics still solid, it's not quite the 5 minutes that plate has but long enough to inflict some pain. but again on the dex side I think the idea was no handwaving for this build, he wants it to be strong but fair.

And my personal bard would be hiding by that point thanks to cunning, as I said I'm not sure if you can or can't effect someone hidden with a spell that's not aoe. But for the pure bard then yes you'd get a good wedge of damage off on him and most likely kill him before he can hide. (this is exactly why I'm personally using the 2 rogue dip).

I'm a huge fan of the palasorc for this scenario, if I were running it then it would be a close race as to which I would choose. But obviously I'm a little biased with what I'm playing in my game atm. But I'm in no way putting down the effectiveness of palasorc. Everything has a counter after all. Heat metal is yours, fae fire is mine.

Palabard would be interesting, I think the meta magic might edge it ahead for palasorc though. But you're right both have their niche

Another important thing that's nearly always forgotten with invisibility is that you still make noise, as a gm I'd always rule that without a successful stealth roll they can determine what square you're in. Which means yes they are attacking you with disadvantage but they can still attack you. If they have no idea which square you're in then it truly is a gamble. Especially if you're wearing plate, you're basically a giant metal bell, moving silently isn't your thing.

But my character concept for this wasn't about the damage so much as setting himself up as a master manipulator, showing them his power and the futility of fighting him without killing them, setting them off against each other and beating them psychologically (which also gives them a big drive to come back later and kick his irritating butt). as a player I wouldn't enjoy a fight where I can't hit the enemy, they will save anything I try and basically one shot me.

But anything you can build that can 1v7 and win isn't going to be a fun fight for the players really.

[wunderkid]

That won't work. You have to swap a dice before they roll. At which point they can opt to use a Lucky feat point to add a dice roll, assuming they don't have advantage.

This has been highly contested both RAW and RAI. And is largely a DMs call.

Won't divert the conversation into a discussion about it (make a new topic if you'd like to discuss it)

But RAI portent is that you have seen the future and know the outcome of a particular action that's going to happen. So personally (and this is completely personally not to be confused with a rules based judgement call) I wouldn't allow lucky to effect something that's predetermined.

[Oramac]

I didn't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has been brought up already.

Wasn't the Oathbreaker Paladin pretty much made for this situation? At 11th level, with all the regular Pally features plus the Oathbreaker stuff like Aura of Hate he could probably smite and one-shot a 4th level PC without even critting.

Two attacks, Aura of Protection/Courage, Imp Divine Smite, Aura of Hate, Channel Divinity, and whatever else you want to give him makes him positively deadly.

Plus, a fallen paladin would easily fit the trope of a mentor-gone-bad.

[uraniumrooster]

Although, Portent does specify that it has to be used against a creature you can see. In this particular instance, regardless of the interaction w/ Lucky feat, it wouldn't work anyway, as the invisible character would still be invisible at the time they make their save against the Faerie Fire. I guess you can't foresee what you can't see. :smallcool:

[Knaight]

I'd be inclined to go with an Eldritch Knight with stealth skills. Mostly this is because it gives the mentor figure a wide range of skills that makes them make more sense in the mentor role for a wider variety of PCs, partly this is because it gives them some staying power and some options in a fight. Then, if they are able to pick the terrain, give them something where they can split the group up easily. Blowing out bridges to split the group up, taking cover in small basin like terrain to shorten sight lines to keep from being piled on at range, and doing other similar things in a picked environment could turn the fight from a 7 vs. 1 to something like a 3 vs. 1 and two 2 vs. 1 fights, which is much easier to handle. This also lets you get away with a fairly low level, 10 or 11 might do it. You just need to be a better tactician than the players.

[HoarsHalberd]

Nope. It doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures, it allows you to target them without disadvantage. You still can't actually see the creature. Of course with the lucky feat it would be hard to land Faerie Fire in the first place. Remember they went Rogue first and got dexterity saving throw proficiency. They also likely have a Dexterity of +3 or even +4. With lucky feat that means failing a DC 14 saving throw (the highest they can have at 4th) 2.56% of the time. I just don't see that Faerie Fire landing.

They can get a DC15 saving throw if they rolled stats.

Also, if you'll allow UA I think I've got a build that should work. 2 fighter, X barbarian with mariner's style. So up to 23 AC. And for DPR, polearm master with a quarterstaff.

[FightStyles]

I'm slightly confused. Does the OP even really want the PC's to have a chance of winning/killing the BBEG?

If not, the stats are simple.

HP = ∞

Everything else you can play by ear, or whatever you want the mentor to do or have later.

The battle is also easy. Take a few round of fun, maybe some dialogue. Then throw a save vs. death AoE DC 22 or something high. And then multi attack the next round anyone who survives to death, but this person should get an award or something.

[wunderkid]

I'm slightly confused. Does the OP even really want the PC's to have a chance of winning/killing the BBEG?

If not, the stats are simple.

HP = ∞

Everything else you can play by ear, or whatever you want the mentor to do or have later.

The battle is also easy. Take a few round of fun, maybe some dialogue. Then throw a save vs. death AoE DC 22 or something high. And then multi attack the next round anyone who survives to death, but this person should get an award or something.

The op stated he wanted it built as a legitimate character. Infinite hp or homebrew op aoe death effects is not even remotely on the cards for this

[ZX6Rob]

Don't use PC classes, and don't use the same rules for your Large Malicious Vile Person that your players are using for their characters. Sorry, that sounds kind of harsh, and totally counter to your initial question, but really, you shouldn't! PC classes are designed to carefully manage resources and deal comparatively high damage, but there's also a LOT of information to track for a DM, and they were not particularly designed with use by the DM as NPCs in mind. Instead of using the player class rules, you should determine exactly how challenging you want the encounter to be (is this a fight that you see the enemy winning easily, or do you want the Magnificent Seven to have a fighting chance of taking him out?), and then use the Monster Building guidelines in the DMG to build an appropriate creature based on the expected challenge level, with all the abilities that you want and none that you don't need.

Doing it this way has a couple of key benefits. First, you're working within the existing challenge system around which the game has been balanced, and while there's a bit of counter-intuitive and finicky math, it generally works out to be pretty close to what you want it to be when used with care. Second, it ensures that, when you are building encounters, you aren't giving your Colossal Dreadful Malevolent Entity extraneous abilities, or "ribbons", that won't actually come up or matter much in the fight. Your Enormous Criminal Villainous Individual doesn't need a power that says they can roll a d20 to know something about their enemy -- you're the DM, he knows what you want him to know, and what he needs to know is based on his role in the current story.

Now, when you're finished building your "monster" -- which, remember, can just be a dude that you call a fighter or wizard or what have you -- you'll still have the whole action economy thing to worry about, which is troubling, because even if he's of a much higher challenge rating than the Magnanimous Seven, they're still getting seven turns to his one. Lair actions and legendary actions can help, but they're kind of a patch on things. Instead, I recommend you read this article by The Angry GM, Return of the Son of the D&D Boss Fight - Now in 5e (http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/) -- it's a homebrew system that discusses how to make the kind of boss fights that can challenge a group of characters in D&D while still working within the bounds of the existing encounter/challenge system.

In essence, the idea is that you build an encounter as though the party would be fighting more than one monster, a group encounter of appropriate XP for the intended challenge, then you roll all your monsters together into a single critter with pools of hit points and multiple turns per round. Every time one "critter's" worth of HP is hacked or blasted away, it loses one of its turns -- as though the players had slain one of X number of creatures they were fighting in an appropriately-leveled encounter. You can also include abilities that only activate after some number of "pools" have been depleted, or invert the fight so that the Gargantuan Reprobate Repugnant Creature starts with a single turn of actions and gains more as it becomes wounded and more angry throughout the fight, simulating video-game-style bosses who gain different abilities or attack patterns after parts of them are blasted away ("SHOOT THE CORE").

The series of articles is worth a read, though there's a lot there, so set aside some time if you decide to follow up on this method. The system is solid, though, and works by using the math that was built into the game from the start. I think you'll end up with a more satisfying, fairly-balanced encounter by using the monster-building rules in conjunction with this than you will if you try to build a character using the player's rules. The classes in the Player's Handbook really weren't meant for PvP games, and especially at higher levels, any fight -- especially one in which you're pitting seven PCs against one bad guy -- will just turn into rocket tag. If you make a PC character powerful enough to challenge seven people, it's almost guaranteed that, just based on initiative order, several of them are going to die before the bad guy is hammered into the ground in the next round or so.

[wunderkid]

Don't use PC classes, and don't use the same rules for your Large Malicious Vile Person that your players are using for their characters. Sorry, that sounds kind of harsh, and totally counter to your initial question, but really, you shouldn't! PC classes are designed to carefully manage resources and deal comparatively high damage, but there's also a LOT of information to track for a DM, and they were not particularly designed with use by the DM as NPCs in mind. Instead of using the player class rules, you should determine exactly how challenging you want the encounter to be (is this a fight that you see the enemy winning easily, or do you want the Magnificent Seven to have a fighting chance of taking him out?), and then use the Monster Building guidelines in the DMG to build an appropriate creature based on the expected challenge level, with all the abilities that you want and none that you don't need.

Doing it this way has a couple of key benefits. First, you're working within the existing challenge system around which the game has been balanced, and while there's a bit of counter-intuitive and finicky math, it generally works out to be pretty close to what you want it to be when used with care. Second, it ensures that, when you are building encounters, you aren't giving your Colossal Dreadful Malevolent Entity extraneous abilities, or "ribbons", that won't actually come up or matter much in the fight. Your Enormous Criminal Villainous Individual doesn't need a power that says they can roll a d20 to know something about their enemy -- you're the DM, he knows what you want him to know, and what he needs to know is based on his role in the current story.

Now, when you're finished building your "monster" -- which, remember, can just be a dude that you call a fighter or wizard or what have you -- you'll still have the whole action economy thing to worry about, which is troubling, because even if he's of a much higher challenge rating than the Magnanimous Seven, they're still getting seven turns to his one. Lair actions and legendary actions can help, but they're kind of a patch on things. Instead, I recommend you read this article by The Angry GM, Return of the Son of the D&D Boss Fight - Now in 5e (http://theangrygm.com/return-of-the-son-of-the-dd-boss-fight-now-in-5e/) -- it's a homebrew system that discusses how to make the kind of boss fights that can challenge a group of characters in D&D while still working within the bounds of the existing encounter/challenge system.

In essence, the idea is that you build an encounter as though the party would be fighting more than one monster, a group encounter of appropriate XP for the intended challenge, then you roll all your monsters together into a single critter with pools of hit points and multiple turns per round. Ever time one "critter's" worth of HP is hacked or blasted away, it loses one of its turns -- as though the players had slain one of X number of creatures they were fighting in an appropriately-leveled encounter. You can also include abilities that only activate after some number of "pools" have been depleted, or invert the fight so that the Gargantuan Reprobate Repugnant Creature starts with a single turn of actions and gains more as it becomes wounded and more angry throughout the fight, simulating video-game-style bosses who gain different abilities or attack patterns after parts of them are blasted away ("SHOOT THE CORE").

The series of articles is worth a read, though there's a lot there, so set aside some time if you decide to follow up on this method. The system is solid, though, and works by using the math that was built into the game from the start. I think you'll end up with a more satisfying, fairly-balanced encounter by using the monster-building rules in conjunction with this than you will if you try to build a character using the player's rules. The classes in the Player's Handbook really weren't meant for PvP games, and especially at higher levels, any fight -- especially one in which you're pitting seven PCs against one bad guy -- will just turn into rocket tag. If you make a PC character powerful enough to challenge seven people, it's almost guaranteed that, just based on initiative order, several of them are going to die before the bad guy is hammered into the ground in the next round or so.

Just had a quick read of the first article and already love the idea of paragon monsters. Seems like a very elegant way of making an interesting boss. Will need to read the rest of the articles when I'm not working

[NewDM]

Breast and half plate still take a minute to take off so the tactics still solid, it's not quite the 5 minutes that plate has but long enough to inflict some pain. but again on the dex side I think the idea was no handwaving for this build, he wants it to be strong but fair.

And my personal bard would be hiding by that point thanks to cunning, as I said I'm not sure if you can or can't effect someone hidden with a spell that's not aoe. But for the pure bard then yes you'd get a good wedge of damage off on him and most likely kill him before he can hide. (this is exactly why I'm personally using the 2 rogue dip).

I'm a huge fan of the palasorc for this scenario, if I were running it then it would be a close race as to which I would choose. But obviously I'm a little biased with what I'm playing in my game atm. But I'm in no way putting down the effectiveness of palasorc. Everything has a counter after all. Heat metal is yours, fae fire is mine.

Palabard would be interesting, I think the meta magic might edge it ahead for palasorc though. But you're right both have their niche

Another important thing that's nearly always forgotten with invisibility is that you still make noise, as a gm I'd always rule that without a successful stealth roll they can determine what square you're in. Which means yes they are attacking you with disadvantage but they can still attack you. If they have no idea which square you're in then it truly is a gamble. Especially if you're wearing plate, you're basically a giant metal bell, moving silently isn't your thing.

But my character concept for this wasn't about the damage so much as setting himself up as a master manipulator, showing them his power and the futility of fighting him without killing them, setting them off against each other and beating them psychologically (which also gives them a big drive to come back later and kick his irritating butt). as a player I wouldn't enjoy a fight where I can't hit the enemy, they will save anything I try and basically one shot me.

But anything you can build that can 1v7 and win isn't going to be a fun fight for the players really.


This has been highly contested both RAW and RAI. And is largely a DMs call.

Won't divert the conversation into a discussion about it (make a new topic if you'd like to discuss it)

But RAI portent is that you have seen the future and know the outcome of a particular action that's going to happen. So personally (and this is completely personally not to be confused with a rules based judgement call) I wouldn't allow lucky to effect something that's predetermined.

This is pure speculation on my part but its entirely possible the OP is a player not a DM and they are planning on TPKing their own party. However that's just my chronic cynicism acting up.

[FightStyles]

The op stated he wanted it built as a legitimate character. Infinite hp or homebrew op aoe death effects is not even remotely on the cards for this


My suggestion was based upon the first battle that it seems he wants them to lose to. Kind of like lots of initial boss monsters in RPG video games. Afterwards, he'll need stating up or what not which is what everyone else helped with. I was just trying to help for the first battle.

[krugaan]

I'm not so sure this is a great idea, it seems to be a strictly DM vs. PCs kind of fight, which goes against the Code of DnD.

That being said, I like analyzing things, so there.

You need to find some way to balance action economy against a party with 7 times as many actions as the other character. Since bounded accuracy is a thing, action economy is usually the most important.

two ways to do that:

1) reduce their action economy
2) increase your action economy

To reduce their action economy, you want to do CC or kill as many PCs as quickly as possible. Spells you want: non-concentration, aoe, no save, deprive targets of actions and/or their life. You need at least two out of the four to have any chance of success, and the more the better.

Wall spells, hypnotic pattern, fear, forcecage, greater invisibility, reverse gravity, blasting spells with high damage and/or aoe. I included greater invisibility because, without faerie fire, detect invisibility or the like, it will nullify a large amount of actions PCs can take. Dimension door, misty step + hide are also viable. Blindness is a notable debuff because, when scaled, it does affect multiple targets, and does *not* require concentration.

Increasing your own action economy is tougher, mostly because of concentration requirements which may be clashing with 1). The prime way to increase your own action economy is summoning minions. Animate objects *really* good in this case: 10 tiny objects can immediately give you the advantage, and combined with forced movement options like dissonant whispers, can really dish out a lot of damage in a short span of time. Animate objects is also just fine for running a man-to-man defense: plant one or two on every target.

If you're thinking about making a martial character that will be unbeatable, martials lack any real way to do either 1) or 2) without just killing characters, which brings up another good point: if you want to just KO your PCs without actually TPKing them, your job just got 10 times harder. Any healing classes with Healing Word (which should be all of them, really) are the among the worst in terms of action economy: they spend one bonus action and get an action, bonus action, and movement in return. Another reason why this plan might not be the best idea.

If you're determined on going through with it, a level 14+ bard, wizard, or sorc could likely do it, provided they get surprise (or at least, don't get surprised) and the battlefield is relatively favorable.

[Democratus]

This has been highly contested both RAW and RAI. And is largely a DMs call.

Won't divert the conversation into a discussion about it (make a new topic if you'd like to discuss it)

But RAI portent is that you have seen the future and know the outcome of a particular action that's going to happen. So personally (and this is completely personally not to be confused with a rules based judgement call) I wouldn't allow lucky to effect something that's predetermined.

Exactly so. With Portent the result you place there is the result.

The target can claim that they used luck points (and burn them uselessly), but the final result is whatever value portent assigns.

[NewDM]

Exactly so. With Portent the result you place there is the result.

The target can claim that they used luck points (and burn them uselessly), but the final result is whatever value portent assigns.

Its very clear that you alter only one roll. You also must alter it before the target rolls. Those two things don't mesh with anything that has advantage or that allows multiple dice to be used. You might lower the highest dice, but you won't negate the effect.

[KorvinStarmast]

druid summons 8 pixies .... let the fun begin. :smallbiggrin:

[wunderkid]

Its very clear that you alter only one roll. You also must alter it before the target rolls. Those two things don't mesh with anything that has advantage or that allows multiple dice to be used. You might lower the highest dice, but you won't negate the effect.

You don't alter a roll you replace it.

"You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls"

So if you use lucky to alter your roll that's fine and dandy it's then completely replaced.

But like I said if you wish to discuss this further please feel free to make a post. It seems like it could be a fun one to discuss

[NewDM]

You don't alter a roll you replace it.

"You can replace any attack roll, saving throw, or ability check made by you or a creature that you can see with one of these foretelling rolls"

So if you use lucky to alter your roll that's fine and dandy it's then completely replaced.

But like I said if you wish to discuss this further please feel free to make a post. It seems like it could be a fun one to discuss

Yes, you replace one roll, then if they have advantage they simply use the higher of the two. If they have advantage/disadvantage and use Lucky feat, then they replace one roll and they use the higher of the three.

If there is any confusion you can post it on twitter and get an official answer from Jeremy Crawford.

Edit: Also as pointed out, its a pointless argument since you have to see the person you are replacing rolls with and you don't see them until after they fail their saving throw (or not at all, since they remain invisible).

[RulesJD]

2 Main options.

1. Stealth Wizard as stated. Use Glyph of Warding + Hold Person ahead of time (trap various items like treasure chests, magical swords (that are really just illusions), etc.). Once a character fails their Hold Person check, Stealth Wizard (with greater invisibility up) runs up and auto-crits Booming Blade + Sneak Attack for stupidly large amounts of damage, and runs away while still invisible. Make Glyphs and Illusions everywhere (burn slots for Dispel Magic if they're level 5) to really mess with their heads.

2. Level 7+ Moon Druid/1 Barbarian (or 3 Barbarian if you're mean). This is much more straightforward. Rage + Shape Change into a Polar Bear or something. PCs will Nova you down. Poof, literally do it again. PCs again Nova down. By this point, trying to burn through all the BPS damage resistance will have severally drained the party's resources. Party looks like they're going to win and are all happy.

Polymorph -> Giant Ape. Wreck face all over the party.

Can add a level of Warlock for flavor + upcast Armor of Agathys to punish melee characters while in Shape Change + Ragebear form.

[NewDM]

2 Main options.

1. Stealth Wizard as stated. Use Glyph of Warding + Hold Person ahead of time (trap various items like treasure chests, magical swords (that are really just illusions), etc.). Once a character fails their Hold Person check, Stealth Wizard (with greater invisibility up) runs up and auto-crits Booming Blade + Sneak Attack for stupidly large amounts of damage, and runs away while still invisible. Make Glyphs and Illusions everywhere (burn slots for Dispel Magic if they're level 5) to really mess with their heads.

2. Level 7+ Moon Druid/1 Barbarian (or 3 Barbarian if you're mean). This is much more straightforward. Rage + Shape Change into a Polar Bear or something. PCs will Nova you down. Poof, literally do it again. PCs again Nova down. By this point, trying to burn through all the BPS damage resistance will have severally drained the party's resources. Party looks like they're going to win and are all happy.

Polymorph -> Giant Ape. Wreck face all over the party.

Can add a level of Warlock for flavor + upcast Armor of Agathys to punish melee characters while in Shape Change + Ragebear form.

I've found that a Mammoth with charging room is more effective than a Giant Ape.

[RulesJD]

Also just wanted to point out that as good as this palasorc seems on paper I could probably 1v1 him as a level 5 with the character I'm currently playing in my game (not at level 4 however.) Which is the rogue/bard (as I've said before I am a little biased towards this build)

*snip*

Um, yeah.

Counterspell and Dispel Magic are necessary or any BBEG (or any Paladorc for that matter).

[wunderkid]

Yes, you replace one roll, then if they have advantage they simply use the higher of the two. If they have advantage/disadvantage and use Lucky feat, then they replace one roll and they use the higher of the three.

If there is any confusion you can post it on twitter and get an official answer from Jeremy Crawford.

Edit: Also as pointed out, its a pointless argument since you have to see the person you are replacing rolls with and you don't see them until after they fail their saving throw (or not at all, since they remain invisible).

An attack roll is an attack roll regardless of advantage or lucky or anything like that. So one roll involves however many dice, all of which are replaced by portent.

You may roll multiple dice as part of your 'attack roll'. But when you have advantage it doesn't make it an 'attack rolls' the language doesn't work.

Yes it doesn't work in this scenario as you need sight it's more a general point that when you replace an 'attack roll' that means replacing every aspect of it.

[wunderkid]

Um, yeah.

Counterspell and Dispel Magic are necessary or any BBEG (or any Paladorc for that matter).

Counterspell requires sight. So that doesn't work. But yes he can start throwing dispel magics around, but he isn't guaranteed to dispel unless he starts blowing high level slots.

Plus him trading a level 3+ slot for a level 2 spell slot is winning in my books.

[rhouck]

I'm not so sure this is a great idea, it seems to be a strictly DM vs. PCs kind of fight, which goes against the Code of DnD.

This.

I had a DM who did a fight like this and personally, as a player, I hated it. You've created a scenario that the PCs are forced to fight (to progress the story you've created) but are incapable of winning (in my experience, it was made more obvious/worse by the fact that he tweaked the fight mid-battle when he realized his unbeatable bad guys might actually lose). You might as well just handwave the whole thing and say "you meet a guy, he whoops your ass, and now he is your mentor", since you are designing an encounter that the party cannot affect the outcome. As a player, having the DM take away all agency sucks.

There is nothing wrong with introducing powerful enemies that players have a 1% chance of beating, but you should (1) be prepared that they might actually win, or (2) be prepared that they might do the smart thing and just run away.

[RulesJD]

Counterspell requires sight. So that doesn't work. But yes he can start throwing dispel magics around, but he isn't guaranteed to dispel unless he starts blowing high level slots.

Plus him trading a level 3+ slot for a level 2 spell slot is winning in my books.

1. And Stealth isn't magical Invisibility. So he can still see you, I don't care if you roll a 38 on your Hide check. This is especially true at level 4-5.

You'd MAYBE get the first one off, but that's it. After that, you're trying to Stealth in Combat, which if you check your PHB is nigh impossible minus the Invisibility or other relevant spell.

There is NOTHING that gets incorrectly applied more than Stealth rules. Granted there are massive gaps for DM discretion, but the vast majority of the time players would not be allowed to Stealth in Combat.

2. Regarding your build, this is level 4-5 Characters and you're obviously a Rogue with Cunning Action. That means at BEST you have two 2nd level spell slots. Paladorc BBEG (assuming level 10) will have three 3rd level and one 4th level slot.

You are in no way shape or form solo'ing the Paladorc being discussed in this thread.

[wunderkid]

1. And Stealth isn't magical Invisibility. So he can still see you, I don't care if you roll a 38 on your Hide check. This is especially true at level 4-5.

You'd MAYBE get the first one off, but that's it. After that, you're trying to Stealth in Combat, which if you check your PHB is nigh impossible minus the Invisibility or other relevant spell.

There is NOTHING that gets incorrectly applied more than Stealth rules. Granted there are massive gaps for DM discretion, but the vast majority of the time players would not be allowed to Stealth in Combat.

2. Regarding your build, this is level 4-5 Characters and you're obviously a Rogue with Cunning Action. That means at BEST you have two 2nd level spell slots. Paladorc BBEG (assuming level 10) will have three 3rd level and one 4th level slot.

You are in no way shape or form solo'ing the Paladorc being discussed in this thread.

My character is level 6, but if the paladorc is spending actions casting dispel magic in the actual fight vs 6 other people aswel then gravy. 1v1 may be tougher yes. But I'll still come out on top I reckon.

You are hidden until you make your attack. That means you have no sight of the rogue until after he has made his attack.

There is nothing in the rules preventing stealth in combat. Only that you can't be seen or be obscured if you have the relevant feat/race.

To me it sounds like you're playing stealth MASSIVELY wrong.

"When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check’s total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence."

So basically hiding is a stealth vs perception check. Simple enough.

"Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard."

A description of stealth.

"If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

Your location isn't given away until AFTER the attack has hit or missed.

"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly"

Sets the precedent for when you can hide.

"You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding."

A excerpt from skulker.

"a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight."

Light obscurity for context

"You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Dash, Disengage, or Hide action."

And cunning action. Note it specifically says taking the hide action in combat. (you can't use cunning outside of combat after all)

So where exactly is it even difficult to hide while in combat? As long as you have 1) a way to break Line of sight 2) dim light, patchy fog or moderate foliage (assuming you have either skukler or are a wood elf) on top of which hiding in combat is how a rogue is designed to survive. Fighters get plate. Casters get spells. Rogues get cunning action to hide.

[NewDM]

1. And Stealth isn't magical Invisibility. So he can still see you, I don't care if you roll a 38 on your Hide check. This is especially true at level 4-5.

You'd MAYBE get the first one off, but that's it. After that, you're trying to Stealth in Combat, which if you check your PHB is nigh impossible minus the Invisibility or other relevant spell.

There is NOTHING that gets incorrectly applied more than Stealth rules. Granted there are massive gaps for DM discretion, but the vast majority of the time players would not be allowed to Stealth in Combat.

2. Regarding your build, this is level 4-5 Characters and you're obviously a Rogue with Cunning Action. That means at BEST you have two 2nd level spell slots. Paladorc BBEG (assuming level 10) will have three 3rd level and one 4th level slot.

You are in no way shape or form solo'ing the Paladorc being discussed in this thread.

We are talking about using Greater Invisibility where you physically cannot see the target. My build was a Rogue 2/Wizard 7 with Greater Invisibility and War Caster for advantage on concentration saves. Using cunning action to hide. You could go another Wizard level for Mobile feat to be able to walk away from a target without getting an opportunity attack.

If you've played the new Dark Souls 3 game, It is sword and sorcery and many of the spells can't be aimed fast without using the lock on feature and if you can't see an enemy you can't lock on. It really gives some perspective to some of these mechanics and how hard it is to do this kind of stuff in a semi-physical real world.

[RulesJD]

Pg 177 of the PHB:

You can't hide from a creature that can see you and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

No, you can't just continually combine Stealth Rolls = Invisibility. When you can see a target + you require Verbal spell components (Heat Metal requires Verbal components) there is preciously zero chance of you not being seen by your target once Combat has started without some sort of Invisibility and/or darkness combination. This is especially true in the 1v1 scenario you claimed to be in.

Again, I repeat for like the 1000th time, Stealth is NOT Invisibility. I really, really wish DMs would stop letting players get away with abusing it.

Also, as a significantly more fun combination. Paladorc just Quicken casts Haste + Dashes up to where you are "hiding". They can then clearly see you while still having 2 full attacks for smiting goodness. Good luck with that ~DC 17 non-proficient Concentration save (Smiting, 2h Wep, 16 Str).

[krugaan]

I'm begging you, do not start the stealth question in this thread, or it will derail horribly.

[Slipperychicken]

So, what's stopping OP from just giving the NPC legendary actions and resistance and calling it a day?

[RulesJD]

We are talking about using Greater Invisibility where you physically cannot see the target. My build was a Rogue 2/Wizard 7 with Greater Invisibility and War Caster for advantage on concentration saves. Using cunning action to hide. You could go another Wizard level for Mobile feat to be able to walk away from a target without getting an opportunity attack.

If you've played the new Dark Souls 3 game, It is sword and sorcery and many of the spells can't be aimed fast without using the lock on feature and if you can't see an enemy you can't lock on. It really gives some perspective to some of these mechanics and how hard it is to do this kind of stuff in a semi-physical real world.

That's not what the Bard/Rogue combo was talking about above that claimed he could solo a Paladorc.

I full agree that Rogue/Wizard with Greater Invis is a great BBEG way to go. I even posted that suggestion in my build. Combine Glyphs of Ward + Illusions to burn party resources and wait until 1 party member is Held. Then auto-crit with Booming Blade + Sneak Attack for ungodly damage before slinking away while still invisible.

Also, I'd go Rogue 3 for the bigger sneak + Swashbuckler auto-disengage and +CHA to Initiative.

[NewDM]

So, what's stopping OP from just giving the NPC legendary actions and resistance and calling it a day?

The OP requested a PC based build that didn't break the rules.

[Aldarin]

What I do in this situation, I throw in, let's say, a level 10--and then if the party starts to beat him, have him start regenerating or something. Keep piling on hidden magic items the BBEG is using if they just keep winning, then, when there's one left, just say his items ran out of charges.

[wunderkid]

Pg 177 of the PHB:

You can't hide from a creature that can see you and if you make noise (such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase), you give away your position. An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, however, and it still has to stay quiet.

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen.

No, you can't just continually combine Stealth Rolls = Invisibility. When you can see a target + you require Verbal spell components (Heat Metal requires Verbal components) there is preciously zero chance of you not being seen by your target once Combat has started without some sort of Invisibility and/or darkness combination. This is especially true in the 1v1 scenario you claimed to be in.

Again, I repeat for like the 1000th time, Stealth is NOT Invisibility. I really, really wish DMs would stop letting players get away with abusing it.

Also, as a significantly more fun combination. Paladorc just Quicken casts Haste + Dashes up to where you are "hiding". They can then clearly see you while still having 2 full attacks for smiting goodness. Good luck with that ~DC 17 non-proficient Concentration save (Smiting, 2h Wep, 16 Str).

You can't hide from a creature that can see you

You missed out the word clearly on the end there. I presume you're using the old copy of the pdf which misses out that word. But the key word you're missing is clearly. It's a very important word and was added for this exact reason.

Verbal components are not shouting.

You are not approaching a creature either.

And that's a cute combination though. Assuming the person trying to hide is an idiot then sure that works. But any rogue worth their salt will hide then move. If you're in a foggy area as per this example you can be standing 5ft away from them and not see them because you are lightly obscured. And then I'll just stay hidden for a minute until you've wasted your spell slot.

I really, really wish DMs would stop letting players abuse plate and shield dips while trying to marginalise stealth.

Yes in a clear day. With little cover. And no obscurement. Making use of stealth is hard. Like almost impossible hard.

In fog or a place with light foliage like a Forrest you are hidden by light obscurement "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding" so that's perception. Not 'i can see automatically' perceptions in there for a reason, the rogue can be very close and perfectly blending into the surroundings, your perception reflects if you can see them or not. Again this is not the case in a clear day where there is no obscurement. But the moment light obsucrement exists it's stealth vs perception

[RickAllison]

Something Wizard or Bard that uses Contingency. Have it set so it ensures the mentor stays alive. The rest of the build can be tweaked, but that at least ensures he survives.

Give him a Ring of Free Action so he can't be chumped by Hold Person or several other effects, toss in an Animate Objects or similar bonus action attack and he can do some decent work.

[RulesJD]

You can't hide from a creature that can see you

You missed out the word clearly on the end there. I presume you're using the old copy of the pdf which misses out that word. But the key word you're missing is clearly. It's a very important word and was added for this exact reason.

Verbal components are not shouting.

You are not approaching a creature either.

And that's a cute combination though. Assuming the person trying to hide is an idiot then sure that works. But any rogue worth their salt will hide then move. If you're in a foggy area as per this example you can be standing 5ft away from them and not see them because you are lightly obscured. And then I'll just stay hidden for a minute until you've wasted your spell slot.

I really, really wish DMs would stop letting players abuse plate and shield dips while trying to marginalise stealth.

Yes in a clear day. With little cover. And no obscurement. Making use of stealth is hard. Like almost impossible hard.

In fog or a place with light foliage like a Forrest you are hidden by light obscurement "Until you are discovered or you stop hiding" so that's perception. Not 'i can see automatically' perceptions in there for a reason, the rogue can be very close and perfectly blending into the surroundings, your perception reflects if you can see them or not. Again this is not the case in a clear day where there is no obscurement. But the moment light obsucrement exists it's stealth vs perception

Nope, just because your stealth roll is 38 doesn't mean the creature can't see you BECAUSE YOU AREN'T INVISIBLE.

You cast your spell from Obscurement/Hidden. You are now visible. You Move action, which you are Visible during. You then Hide when you get where you're going.

At best, you can be Hidden in your ending location. Except the Paladorc literally saw where you were moving to. If you Hide and THEN move, as you stated, you are no longer Hidden while moving. Without some sort of Cover the Paladorc will absolutely see you, I don't care what your Stealth score. Stealth doesn't break Line of Sight.

You'd be hard pressed to find a DM that wouldn't rule that Verbal components from within 60ft wouldn't alert an enemy, especially when their armor suddenly gets hot. So, again, you are seen as soon as you cast your spell. Paladorc sees where you move to, and then Quicken Haste + Dashes up to your location (120ft of movement and even assuming 60ft away from the beginning you'll be well within the range).

Where in the OP's example did it say in a "foggy" area?

[Vogonjeltz]

So... I've got an RP that I'm running for the first time in 5e, and I'm trying to work out a rather strange scenario. I've got seven player characters who are going to be taking on an NPC. I'm hoping to basically make the NPC as a normal character. The kicker is that this NPC should actually win the fight against all seven lower level PCs, and the PCs are already fourth level (might be fifth by the time they reach said NPC). Keep in mind that the NPC should be entirely solo and simply that much nastier, better, stronger than the PCs that he'll wipe the floor with them. Any ideas on what that NPC should be (classes/levels) to make success a likelihood?

Edit: I realize I could just throw in a level 20, but I'm trying to find the minimum level that could manage this (or, at least, something that leaves plenty of room for advancement beyond, in fact beyond the mentor himself) as defeating this mentor should not be the end of the campaign but merely the intro into something so much worse.

(FWIW: The idea is that the NPC will become their mentor of sorts, a patron, and possibly down the road they'll try taking him out again. ... What? It's a campaign of evil characters!)

What are the PCs classed as?

Something to bear in mind, you can only knock a character unconscious using melee attacks (PHB 198). Spells, which are generally aoe and or ranged, are lethal.

You could probably get away with a level 11 Fighter, Berserker, or Oathbreaker.

The Oathbreaker could probably drop 2 characters every round (+5d8 off a 3rd level smite + 2d6+5 melee for 34.5 per successful attack). 4th level characters should have somewhere in between 13 and 60 hp for a Fighter/Paladin/Ranger, less for everyone else. Make sure the mentor has Alertness so that they're likely to go first.

Depending on how many characters have healing capability, I'd start by dropping the character who hasn't gone in initiative and has the lowest hit points.

[NewDM]

Nope, just because your stealth roll is 38 doesn't mean the creature can't see you BECAUSE YOU AREN'T INVISIBLE.

You cast your spell from Obscurement/Hidden. You are now visible. You Move action, which you are Visible during. You then Hide when you get where you're going.

At best, you can be Hidden in your ending location. Except the Paladorc literally saw where you were moving to. If you Hide and THEN move, as you stated, you are no longer Hidden while moving. Without some sort of Cover the Paladorc will absolutely see you, I don't care what your Stealth score. Stealth doesn't break Line of Sight.

You'd be hard pressed to find a DM that wouldn't rule that Verbal components from within 60ft wouldn't alert an enemy, especially when their armor suddenly gets hot. So, again, you are seen as soon as you cast your spell. Paladorc sees where you move to, and then Quicken Haste + Dashes up to your location (120ft of movement and even assuming 60ft away from the beginning you'll be well within the range).

Where in the OP's example did it say in a "foggy" area?

Invisibility is Heavily Obscured. So they can stand right next to the party and hide while invisible, and then move wherever they want and then attack. Greater Invisibility you don't become visible when you attack or take damage.

[wunderkid]

Nope, just because your stealth roll is 38 doesn't mean the creature can't see you BECAUSE YOU AREN'T INVISIBLE.

You cast your spell from Obscurement/Hidden. You are now visible. You Move action, which you are Visible during. You then Hide when you get where you're going.

At best, you can be Hidden in your ending location. Except the Paladorc literally saw where you were moving to. If you Hide and THEN move, as you stated, you are no longer Hidden while moving. Without some sort of Cover the Paladorc will absolutely see you, I don't care what your Stealth score. Stealth doesn't break Line of Sight.

You'd be hard pressed to find a DM that wouldn't rule that Verbal components from within 60ft wouldn't alert an enemy, especially when their armor suddenly gets hot. So, again, you are seen as soon as you cast your spell. Paladorc sees where you move to, and then Quicken Haste + Dashes up to your location (120ft of movement and even assuming 60ft away from the beginning you'll be well within the range).

Where in the OP's example did it say in a "foggy" area?

"Stealth. Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard."

All sounds like moving while stealthed to me. And You dont notice stealth except by succeeding at a perception check.

You don't have to be invisible. Have you ever seen anyone in full camouflage? (excuse the irony).

http://upshout.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/soldier-camouflage-010.jpg

Look at this picture. That's someone hiding with practically NO obscurement. In broad daylight. Without any fantasy aspects thrown in. It's not easy to see them. Now throw in fog. And the capability to do things no normal person could because it's a fantasy game. Not to mention you're ACTIVELY looking at that picture, spending your action in other words. And so far nobody at my table has spotted it in less than a round (6 seconds) and again that's in broad daylight and not even fully obscured.

You're not invisible. Invisible is invisible. Hiding is a contested check stealth vs perception. If you fail you CANT see them. The check is there because they are not invisible. But just because they are not invisible does not mean you CAN automatically see them.

I'll bet you any sum of money if I'm standing 60ft away from you and not making a lot if noise you're not hearing me. If I shout then sure. If I don't then good luck.

The OPs example is the DM is organising this battle so whatever conditions or location it takes place in is entirely up to him. It is not a player. Therefore whatever area or weather conditions are best suited for the situation will be there.

It would be completely different if this was a player as they have no control over such things.

Also line of sight means nothing. You must see them "CLEARLY" to have auto sight through stealth. The moment there is obscurement it is perception vs stealth. (again assuming you have skulker or half elf not for every Tom **** and harry they need heavy obsurement which makes life harder)

[Giant2005]

Can we please quit the stealth crap please?
Just like in every other thread about stealth, it boils down to perception: one side believes that the perceiver should be able to notice the stealther because the stealther isn't invisible. The other side believes that the perceiver should not be able to notice the stealther because the perceiver isn't omniscient.
All of this debate is utterly pointless because the dice are supposed to determine the answers to these questions - if perception wins, then in practice the perceiver is virtually omniscient with respect to the stealther. If the stealth roll wins, then in practice the stealther is virtually invisible with respect to the perceiver.
No amount of talk is going to change the nature of the dice.

[uraniumrooster]

The issue I have with the stealth tactic is it's too easily defeated.

Say the party has a Cleric 1/Bard 4, with expertise in Perception. Possibly even a Variant Human with Observant. Pretty standard build that gets a 24 passive Perception. Even with a +10 Stealth, odds aren't great that you can beat that every round, and they don't even have to use their action to look for you.

Even if they don't have someone with a crazy passive perception, all it takes is someone with See Invisibility. With 7 characters, I would assume at least one or two should have it ready. They put that up first round, then ready actions the next round to cast Hold Person as soon as NPC breaks stealth. A Rogue/Wiz or Bard/Rogue have to focus on Dex and either Int or Cha, and unless the Rogue/Wiz started as a Wizard, neither have Wis save proficiency. NPC has to risk making a few DC 14-15 Wis saves with only a +1 or +2 bonus, getting Paralyzed and losing concentration on Greater Invis if they fail.

You could try a Silent Image or something to trick them into wasting their readied spell slots, but again, an Observant character could easily get an 18+ passive Investigation to immediately spot it as a fake. Plus, you have to break your stealth to cast the spell, at which point the casters with See Invisibility up would see you casting and be able to surmise that the Silent Image isn't real. And, if you cast the spell within 60', their readied actions go off anyway.

And that's using the most generous interpretation of the rules for Stealth in combat.

[MaxWilson]

At Sorcerer 5 you can only do 2 quickened spells per encounter. We want the NPC to be able to hide after every attack so it won't get hit.

You can convert spell slots to sorcery points without coming out of hiding.

[uraniumrooster]

This.

I had a DM who did a fight like this and personally, as a player, I hated it. You've created a scenario that the PCs are forced to fight (to progress the story you've created) but are incapable of winning (in my experience, it was made more obvious/worse by the fact that he tweaked the fight mid-battle when he realized his unbeatable bad guys might actually lose). You might as well just handwave the whole thing and say "you meet a guy, he whoops your ass, and now he is your mentor", since you are designing an encounter that the party cannot affect the outcome. As a player, having the DM take away all agency sucks.

There is nothing wrong with introducing powerful enemies that players have a 1% chance of beating, but you should (1) be prepared that they might actually win, or (2) be prepared that they might do the smart thing and just run away.

I may have read more into the OP's scenario than he intended, but I assumed the reason he wanted the NPC to use the same rules as any other Character was because he wanted it to be a potentially winnable fight for the party. Of course he could give the NPC infinite HPs and Legendary Saves, or simply narrate the battle with a losing outcome as you suggest. But, the fact that he wanted an actual build, albeit one with a high chance of winning, suggests (to me) that he wanted to actually play out the fight and allow the PCs a chance to come out on top.

Again, I might have read too much into it. I agree, if the first encounter with the NPC is going to be unwinnable, regardless of the dice rolls or the actions of the PCs, then it's better off just skipping the combat and handling it through RP.

[Giant2005]

I may have read more into the OP's scenario than he intended, but I assumed the reason he wanted the NPC to use the same rules as any other Character was because he wanted it to be a potentially winnable fight for the party. Of course he could give the NPC infinite HPs and Legendary Saves, or simply narrate the battle with a losing outcome as you suggest. But, the fact that he wanted an actual build, albeit one with a high chance of winning, suggests (to me) that he wanted to actually play out the fight and allow the PCs a chance to come out on top.

Again, I might have read too much into it. I agree, if the first encounter with the NPC is going to be unwinnable, regardless of the dice rolls or the actions of the PCs, then it's better off just skipping the combat and handling it through RP.

My impression was that he wanted to stat him up normally, as well as make him a mentor in the first place, in order to give the players something to strive towards. If he was just some rules abstraction that they could never replicate, there would be no point.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

All sounds like moving while stealthed to me. And You dont notice stealth except by succeeding at a perception check.

You don't have to be invisible. Have you ever seen anyone in full camouflage? (excuse the irony).

http://upshout.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/soldier-camouflage-010.jpg

Look at this picture. That's someone hiding with practically NO obscurement. In broad daylight. Without any fantasy aspects thrown in. It's not easy to see them. Now throw in fog. And the capability to do things no normal person could because it's a fantasy game. Not to mention you're ACTIVELY looking at that picture, spending your action in other words. And so far nobody at my table has spotted it in less than a round (6 seconds) and again that's in broad daylight and not even fully obscured.

You're not invisible. Invisible is invisible. Hiding is a contested check stealth vs perception. If you fail you CANT see them. The check is there because they are not invisible. But just because they are not invisible does not mean you CAN automatically see them.

*snip*

Also line of sight means nothing. You must see them "CLEARLY" to have auto sight through stealth. The moment there is obscurement it is perception vs stealth. (again assuming you have skulker or half elf not for every Tom **** and harry they need heavy obsurement which makes life harder)

Sweet jesus are you serious???

Yes, you can Sneak up to a target (I've given that first casting from concealment) and then guess what?? You're in Combat and can't Hide again unless under "special circumstances". Did you not even read the rules that I posted?

So you literally think Hide = Stealth right? As in your character can run across a room behind a box and get a 55 on a Stealth role, but when a character walks behind the boxes they won't see the target even with a -5 perception?

Because by RAW you are completely wrong. If you were invisible then yes.

Also, you really, really don't want to bring in real life examples. That sniper is hard to see because he spent a significant period of time setting up his hide, and he isn't moving. In case you haven't remembered, you are requiring movement to make your tactic work. Additionally, he isn't engaging targets from 60ft away, and he certainly won't be talking at a normal decibel level. As soon as that sniper stands up and moves, he will be easily spotted no matter how good his original camouflage. That's actually the PERFECT example for just how ridiculously wrong you are. While not moving or taking any actions = Hidden. After Combat begins and movement = not hidden, I don't care what your Stealth roll is.

No, it's not just a matter of Obscurement + Stealth vs. Perception. If you are standing in a room with Dim Light and roll a 30, but an opponent saw you walk into the middle of the room, they can just walk up to where they last saw you with a torch and poof, you aren't hidden anymore regardless of your original roll.

I hate the Stealth arguments as well because there are clearly a group of players that want to imagine themselves in a video game rather than any semblance of a tabletop reality. If you want Invisibility fine, go be the Wizard/Rogue combo that's been discussed. Otherwise, eat the fact that after Combat begins, your ability to Stealth is extremely narrowly restricted once you start taking actions that cause Sight or Sound.

[RulesJD]

The issue I have with the stealth tactic is it's too easily defeated.

Say the party has a Cleric 1/Bard 4, with expertise in Perception. Possibly even a Variant Human with Observant. Pretty standard build that gets a 24 passive Perception. *snip*

Even if they don't have someone with a crazy passive perception, all it takes is someone with See Invisibility. With 7 characters, I would assume at least one or two should have it ready. They put that up first round, then ready actions the next round to cast Hold Person as soon as NPC breaks stealth. A Rogue/Wiz or Bard/Rogue have to focus on Dex and either Int or Cha, and unless the Rogue/Wiz started as a Wizard, neither have Wis save proficiency. NPC has to risk making a few DC 14-15 Wis saves with only a +1 or +2 bonus, getting Paralyzed and losing concentration on Greater Invis if they fail.

You could try a Silent Image or something to trick them into wasting their readied spell slots, but again, an Observant character could easily get an 18+ passive Investigation to immediately spot it as a fake. Plus, you have to break your stealth to cast the spell, at which point the casters with See Invisibility up would see you casting and be able to surmise that the Silent Image isn't real. And, if you cast the spell within 60', their readied actions go off anyway.

And that's using the most generous interpretation of the rules for Stealth in combat.

I've yet to see a level 4-5 Character with 18+ in passive Investigation. As the DM (and likely the Mentor character) he would know if a character was particularly Observant (pun intended). If so, then change the tactics a bit.

For example, as I stated previously, Glyphs of Warding galore. Make once obvious for the Observant character to spot. But then have one hidden under a box or something that triggers off the first one being dispelled/disabled and it casts Blindness/Hold Person/Dispel Magic/whatever on the Observant player. That triggers combat, and that target goes down first.

I disagree with the See Invisibility. I've yet to see a Wizard/player with it actually prepared until after they have encountered an invisible enemy and know that they need it. Regardless, a Glyph of Warding + Dispel Magic quickly takes care of it. If the player tries to cast it turning combat, just Counterspell. The players wont be able to Re-Counterspell because your BBEG will be invisible and Counterspell requires you to see your target. Honestly it would be a good lesson as a Mentor, always have See Invis prepared.

[uraniumrooster]

I've yet to see a level 4-5 Character with 18+ in passive Investigation. As the DM (and likely the Mentor character) he would know if a character was particularly Observant (pun intended). If so, then change the tactics a bit.

For example, as I stated previously, Glyphs of Warding galore. Make once obvious for the Observant character to spot. But then have one hidden under a box or something that triggers off the first one being dispelled/disabled and it casts Blindness/Hold Person/Dispel Magic/whatever on the Observant player. That triggers combat, and that target goes down first.

I disagree with the See Invisibility. I've yet to see a Wizard/player with it actually prepared until after they have encountered an invisible enemy and know that they need it. Regardless, a Glyph of Warding + Dispel Magic quickly takes care of it. If the player tries to cast it turning combat, just Counterspell. The players wont be able to Re-Counterspell because your BBEG will be invisible and Counterspell requires you to see your target. Honestly it would be a good lesson as a Mentor, always have See Invis prepared.

The same Cleric/Bard PC with Observant and proficiency in Investigation would have an 18. Any Int bonus would just be icing on the cake. You are, of course, correct that the DM would know and be able to take it into account and adjust for it in his strategy. Same goes for See Invis - the DM will know if any of the characters tend to keep it readied, and can adjust accordingly. My players (and my own characters, when I get to play) tend to always keep it ready until they get True Seeing, especially now that Wizards are spontaneous casters in 5th edition, and many of the other useful spells one might prepare compete for your concentration. If you don't encounter an invisible foe, you just don't need to cast it, but it's not like you're wasting a spell slot by having it prepped.

My point though, is that those of us discussing various tactics in this thread don't know the party composition, character builds, or skill level of the players in the group. Without that information, if we're designing an NPC with the highest chance of winning, we have to assume that the players and their characters are perfectly prepared for any scenario. With that in mind, See Invisibility and characters with high passive perception/investigation are too big of a risk, as they can potentially eliminate the main advantage a Stealthy-Invisibility build is founded upon. It's too big of a weakness. Spike Growth is another big threat to invisible characters - the PCs might not know exactly where you are, but they can probably guess well enough to surround you with difficult terrain and force you to make a concentration check for every 5' you move.

An NPC with maximized AC/Saves boosts their chance of surviving and, while it has its own weaknesses (Heat Metal being one of them, as discussed earlier in the thread), they are less vulnerable to player actions that are definitively encounter-ending. Plus, you can build it as a Palabard and still use your Glyph of Warding trick, and be more survivable than a Wizard doing the same thing. Although, I still think a Palasorc with Meta-magic and access to better offensive cantrips and spells gets the edge.

[wunderkid]

Sweet jesus are you serious???

Yes, you can Sneak up to a target (I've given that first casting from concealment) and then guess what?? You're in Combat and can't Hide again unless under "special circumstances". Did you not even read the rules that I posted?

So you literally think Hide = Stealth right? As in your character can run across a room behind a box and get a 55 on a Stealth role, but when a character walks behind the boxes they won't see the target even with a -5 perception?

Because by RAW you are completely wrong. If you were invisible then yes.

Also, you really, really don't want to bring in real life examples. That sniper is hard to see because he spent a significant period of time setting up his hide, and he isn't moving. In case you haven't remembered, you are requiring movement to make your tactic work. Additionally, he isn't engaging targets from 60ft away, and he certainly won't be talking at a normal decibel level. As soon as that sniper stands up and moves, he will be easily spotted no matter how good his original camouflage. That's actually the PERFECT example for just how ridiculously wrong you are. While not moving or taking any actions = Hidden. After Combat begins and movement = not hidden, I don't care what your Stealth roll is.

No, it's not just a matter of Obscurement + Stealth vs. Perception. If you are standing in a room with Dim Light and roll a 30, but an opponent saw you walk into the middle of the room, they can just walk up to where they last saw you with a torch and poof, you aren't hidden anymore regardless of your original roll.

I hate the Stealth arguments as well because there are clearly a group of players that want to imagine themselves in a video game rather than any semblance of a tabletop reality. If you want Invisibility fine, go be the Wizard/Rogue combo that's been discussed. Otherwise, eat the fact that after Combat begins, your ability to Stealth is extremely narrowly restricted once you start taking actions that cause Sight or Sound.

Sweet Jesus are you serious???

The "special circumstances" for hiding I've listed. Not being seen clearly. Which is superseded by the features of light Concealment allows you to hide. That's it. The rules are simple. If you are concealed you can attempt to hide from someone. You are hidden all the time you are concealed from them. When they can see you CLEARLY then your hide breaks.

Raw I'm completely right actually. In fact I've quoted basically every passage from the book regarding it and so far you've just said 'if you move I can see you" I even linked the bit about hide being used to move past people. But according to you that bit of text just doesn't exist.

That isn't a significant period of time. If he spent a significant period of time he would have gathered other bits from the surrounding. That's literally him laying down in full daylight. 10ft from you. And very hard to see.

Switch that up for fog, and 60ft.

If you run across the room. Jump behind a box and hide then nobody will see you while youre behind that box, If they walk up to the box and look behind a it they will see you if they can then see you clearly. But as proven that by the picture you can be standing 10ft away from where you think he might be and still have to use your action to try and spot him. With concealment its a whole different story. When concealment is involved it's your perception vs them hiding because you can't clearly see where they are. You can assume they are in that square. In fact there's again even rules for this scenario. But you don't automatically see them.

Invisibility lets you hide without actual concealment. It's that simple. It also gives you concealment regardless of conditions. As the rules are if you're concealed you can hide. Invisibility is amazing for being able to not card about other concealment. Without it if you have concealment you can hide. If you don't you cant. My entire argument here is that in a dense forest or fog hiding is an incredibly good tactic. NOT that is is good for every circumstance or situation.

"with a torch and poof, you aren't hidden anymore" oh you mean with something that removes obscurement and let's you seem them clearly? Of course it does. If they don't have something to remove obscurement however you can hide from them.

Like I said in perfect daylight. Yes hiding and moving is damn near impossible. You need obscurement. In the fog or a dense forest you have obscurement. You can remain hidden. You're trying to claim your guy is omniscient when they have a perception stat which to you basically doesn't exist.

I too hate stealth arguments with people who forget this is a table top game. Where both the rules as written themselves support my argument. And the rules as intended support my argument. And Danm near every single fantasy book, movie, game, other system that features someone stealthy who skulks from the shadows and drops people predator style. Hiding in combat is a core principle to the game. In your games rogues are basically there to die I guess, but in anyone who wants to play the game as it was written and designed, rogues use cunning action to hide to make up for their poor ac. Their hide effectively becomes their AC because out in the open they are basically cannon fodder with very little defence.

[NewDM]

The issue I have with the stealth tactic is it's too easily defeated.

Say the party has a Cleric 1/Bard 4, with expertise in Perception. Possibly even a Variant Human with Observant. Pretty standard build that gets a 24 passive Perception. Even with a +10 Stealth, odds aren't great that you can beat that every round, and they don't even have to use their action to look for you.

Even if they don't have someone with a crazy passive perception, all it takes is someone with See Invisibility. With 7 characters, I would assume at least one or two should have it ready. They put that up first round, then ready actions the next round to cast Hold Person as soon as NPC breaks stealth. A Rogue/Wiz or Bard/Rogue have to focus on Dex and either Int or Cha, and unless the Rogue/Wiz started as a Wizard, neither have Wis save proficiency. NPC has to risk making a few DC 14-15 Wis saves with only a +1 or +2 bonus, getting Paralyzed and losing concentration on Greater Invis if they fail.

You could try a Silent Image or something to trick them into wasting their readied spell slots, but again, an Observant character could easily get an 18+ passive Investigation to immediately spot it as a fake. Plus, you have to break your stealth to cast the spell, at which point the casters with See Invisibility up would see you casting and be able to surmise that the Silent Image isn't real. And, if you cast the spell within 60', their readied actions go off anyway.

And that's using the most generous interpretation of the rules for Stealth in combat.


The same Cleric/Bard PC with Observant and proficiency in Investigation would have an 18. Any Int bonus would just be icing on the cake. You are, of course, correct that the DM would know and be able to take it into account and adjust for it in his strategy. Same goes for See Invis - the DM will know if any of the characters tend to keep it readied, and can adjust accordingly. My players (and my own characters, when I get to play) tend to always keep it ready until they get True Seeing, especially now that Wizards are spontaneous casters in 5th edition, and many of the other useful spells one might prepare compete for your concentration. If you don't encounter an invisible foe, you just don't need to cast it, but it's not like you're wasting a spell slot by having it prepped.

My point though, is that those of us discussing various tactics in this thread don't know the party composition, character builds, or skill level of the players in the group. Without that information, if we're designing an NPC with the highest chance of winning, we have to assume that the players and their characters are perfectly prepared for any scenario. With that in mind, See Invisibility and characters with high passive perception/investigation are too big of a risk, as they can potentially eliminate the main advantage a Stealthy-Invisibility build is founded upon. It's too big of a weakness. Spike Growth is another big threat to invisible characters - the PCs might not know exactly where you are, but they can probably guess well enough to surround you with difficult terrain and force you to make a concentration check for every 5' you move.

An NPC with maximized AC/Saves boosts their chance of surviving and, while it has its own weaknesses (Heat Metal being one of them, as discussed earlier in the thread), they are less vulnerable to player actions that are definitively encounter-ending. Plus, you can build it as a Palabard and still use your Glyph of Warding trick, and be more survivable than a Wizard doing the same thing. Although, I still think a Palasorc with Meta-magic and access to better offensive cantrips and spells gets the edge.

A lightly obscured area causes disadvantage on perception checks. The invisible creature is heavily obscured so it is also lightly obscured (you can't be heavily obscured without also being lightly obscured). So a level 10 character (Rogue 2/ Wizard 8) with expertise and dexterity (+3) would have a Stealth check of +11. That means passive perception needs to be at least 12 to see them. The max you can get for passive perception at level 4 is 12. This assumes you have expertise and the highest ability score at that level. Any advantage is negated by lightly obscured.

Low damage spells won't cause a loss in concentration because they used their first feat on War Caster and their second on Mobile (unless they took 3 levels of Rogue and took swashbuckler). Their Wizard Arcane Tradition could even be Transmuter, and they have their transmuter stone set to Constitution saving throw proficiency. This means they gain +2(con) +4(prof) and advantage from War Caster on concentration checks. Anything under 20 damage is going to succeed around 97.75% (http://anydice.com/program/47b8) of the time.

[MaxWilson]

I donno... while I agree that a stealth character has a better chance of surviving if they just stay hidden and don't actually fight, I don't think they have as good a chance of actually defeating the party in combat. Obviously it depends on the party composition and the skill of the players, but if I tried to throw a solo stealth NPC at my table, they'd get wise pretty quick and throw down some area denial like Spike Growth or something to cover their flanks, then ready actions to cast Blindness, Faerie Fire, Hold Person, Slow, etc, as soon as the NPC broke its stealth to make an attack. Assuming that at least 4 of the 7 characters are casters, that's 4 simultaneous save-or-suck throws all at once, on a stealth character that doesn't have the big save boosts or the ability to give itself advantage.

If I'm a solo stealthy character in hiding, and I see a bunch of PCs all with readied spells, my next move is going to be to start sniping them from medium range, 150' or so. I get to break their concentration and waste their readied actions, since I'm out of spell range.

I can also just wait it out and hit them a few minutes later, because they can't keep those spells readied forever.

Finally, the possibility of save-or-lose spells is exactly why, when I built an NPC for a scenario inspired by this thread (may have posted it earlier), I included Lucky. Lucky is a nice generic save-vs-anything boost.

Faerie Fire is a Dex save, so my stealthy Rogue 2/Shadow Monk 7 NPC is going to be good at it anyway; Hold Person has only 60' range and I have good Wisdom; Blindness has only 30' range, and I can just exfiltrate anyway until it wears off, and Spike Growth isn't going to deny me any movement in a darkened area because I can teleport if I don't need to hide. Between that and Lucky, I'm pretty confident that my players' PCs will not be taking this guy down. (Unlike the OP I'm not planning on using him as a mentor, just a recurring nemesis/criminal/adventure hook who ransacks their stuff and leaves them for dead after framing them for some recent crimes. If the PCs manage to take him down instead, good for them! they'll miss out on a lot of inconvenience.)


The issue I have with the stealth tactic is it's too easily defeated.

Say the party has a Cleric 1/Bard 4, with expertise in Perception. Possibly even a Variant Human with Observant. Pretty standard build that gets a 24 passive Perception. Even with a +10 Stealth, odds aren't great that you can beat that every round, and they don't even have to use their action to look for you.

And yet, the Rogue/Shadow Monk I mentioned would have +22 to Stealth. (+4 from Dex, +8 from Stealth Expertise, +10 from Pass Without Trace.)

[JeffreyGator]

Any enemy that heals itself is pretty demoralizing/frustrating for players - which I think is part of the original intent.

Something that heals through hurting you so that it doesn't waste actions casting healing might be even more so.

Necromancer, death cleric and fiendlocks all have this ability which is pretty cool.

More mentor like a bard/paladin with aura of healing wiping away your damage because of the level of life cleric as bonus actions while it is smiting you. Or the bard is dropping people with sleep until all are sleeping.

There is more a flavor of it being a fight this way.

[Kane0]

I like the death monk idea. Throw in extra HP, ki, reactions and/or legendary actions to make up the difference between him and the party and it should be fun.

Have him chase down the squishies and force the tanks to spend actions in pursuit, rely on ki to stay alive long enough to outlast the remainder of the combatants. Rogue levels or the mobile feat would be an excellent addition for extra movement, plus optional shove/stealth capabilities.