Barb 2/Champ x crit fishing build help.

[Lombra]

Critical hits are always fun, so I'd like to set out a good build which can deal substantial damage thanks to them.
The first thing that came to me is the classic crit-fisher half-orc barbarian/champion, so I listed out the stats for such character:

Barbarian 1:

STR 17 +3
DEX 12 +1
CON 16 +3
INT 8 -1
WIS 13 +1
CHA 8 -1

Sailor background (Pirate variant)
Skill proficiencies:
Perception, Athletics, Intimidation, Survival, Animal Handling.

Barbarian 2/ Champion 18:

Fighting styles: Great Weapon Fighting, Defense

STR 20 +5
DEX 12 +1
CON 18 +4
INT 8 -1
WIS 14 +2
CHA 8 -1

ASIs /feats:
PC Lv 6:
Skilled feat in: Acrobatics, Deception, Persuasion

PC Lv 8:
Great Weapon Master feat

PC Lv 10:
Sentinel feat / Polearm Master

PC Lv 14:
+1 STR, +1 WIS

PC Lv 16:
+2 STR

PC Lv 18:
+2 CON

I'd like to know your opinions on the feats/ASIs that I choose: I'm not sure if taking PAM with a Glaive over Sentinel with a Greataxe, and here's the why:
Thanks to the Great Weapon Fighting style, the Champion's Superior Critical, and the Barbarian's Reckless Attack the PC will have a very high chance to land critical hits, and thanks to the half-orc trait that gives out an extra damage dice to the critical damage, chances are that the damage output will be massive. The GWM feat also gest benefits from this , because if we score a critical hit, we get to make a bonus attack with the same weapon, now, would you suggest to stick to this thought, grab the greataxe and get 4 hits only if one of the first three crits, or would you prefer to get a glaive with PAM to get a much more stable attack rating?

[EvilAnagram]

You're fishing in the wrong direction. You want to go Champion 3, Barbarian x to grab Brutal Criticals.

[Giant2005]

If you are going for 18 levels of Fighter, you may as well go all the way to 20 and get a fourth attack. The worst case scenario is that you would have to drop yourself down to 3 attacks by spending one of them shoving your enemy in order to gain advantage, but that worst case scenario is basically the same as what the 2 levels of Barb would achieve, except enemies won't have advantage on attacks against you. Best case scenario is you have advantage already from a friendly Foresight cast, Mounted Combatant, or someone else has shoved him already (Open Hand Monks and Shield users are good for it). In that case you would just straight up profit with an extra attack, and an extra chance at critting.
With 4 attacks, an 18-20 crit range, and advantage, you have a 72.83% chance of landing a crit each round (so it is best not to bother taking Polearm Master).

[Lombra]

You're fishing in the wrong direction. You want to go Champion 3, Barbarian x to grab Brutal Criticals.

But this way I'll get less attacks with less chance to score a critical hit. Sure it will hurt once it lands, but (and no I didn't do any maths) I think that focusing on quantity over quality in this case is better.


If you are going for 18 levels of Fighter, you may as well go all the way to 20 and get a fourth attack. The worst case scenario is that you would have to drop yourself down to 3 attacks by spending one of them shoving your enemy in order to gain advantage, but that worst case scenario is basically the same as what the 2 levels of Barb would achieve, except enemies won't have advantage on attacks against you. Best case scenario is you have advantage already from a friendly Foresight cast, Mounted Combatant, or someone else has shoved him already (Open Hand Monks and Shield users are good for it). In that case you would just straight up profit with an extra attack, and an extra chance at critting.
With 4 attacks, an 18-20 crit range, and advantage, you have a 72.83% chance of landing a crit each round (so it is best not to bother taking Polearm Master).

Getting the extra attack would be awesome but most of the actually dangerous creatures are hard to shove down (if not impossible), and the crit range is 18-20 anyways, plus the option to rage in hard situations looks very good to me. Sure in a proper team with constant "flanking" on the opponent getting an extra attack might be the optimal choice, but I'd like to focus on the individual character.

[coredump]

Why are you taking the Skilled feat? And why pick 3 skills that you will be horrible using?

[djreynolds]

If you want critical hits, expertise in athletics from rogue and shield master, you will prone just about everyone.

If you take that bonus action first and knock them down you will have 3 chances to score a crit.

Its crazy, but I would use a rapier with strength. And keep the dex at 13, and snag defensive duelist.

Reckless attack is only on your first swipe, and a DM worth his salt will make sure you get swarmed and pummeled, from experience there.

Defensive style, a shield, and defensive duelist will keep you upright in melee. A rapier is 1d8, a polearm is 1d10. Expertise in athletics you are rolling at 17th level a +17 to prone someone.

Just use a half-orc for an extra critical die.

[Lombra]

Why are you taking the Skilled feat? And why pick 3 skills that you will be horrible using?

Well thats' exactly because this way I won't be horrible with them, what would you swap it for?

[Lombra]

If you want critical hits, expertise in athletics from rogue and shield master, you will prone just about everyone.

If you take that bonus action first and knock them down you will have 3 chances to score a crit.

Its crazy, but I would use a rapier with strength. And keep the dex at 13, and snag defensive duelist.

So just a one level dip in rogue and champ 19? With the rapier you can score sneak attacks so maybe it's not worth the trade with the greataxe. But rogue 5/champ 15 on the other hand gives you 3 d6 SA but the crit range would be 19-20 vs 18-20 :/
Not to mention that you would loose the GWM feat.

Reckless attack is only on your first swipe, and a DM worth his salt will make sure you get swarmed and pummeled, from experience there.

RAW the advantage is applied to all the attacks that you perform in the turn. You have to decide to use it on your first attack, but it doesn't say that it works only with that attack.

Defensive style, a shield, and defensive duelist will keep you upright in melee. A rapier is 1d8, a polearm is 1d10. Expertise in athletics you are rolling at 17th level a +17 to prone someone.

Looks like a lot of fun but since we are talking about high levels wouldn't it be hard to shove a purple wurm or an ancient red dragon?

Just use a half-orc for an extra critical die.

Yeah well that's why I choose it in the first place :P

[bid]

Reckless attack is only on your first swipe
No it's not. You missed the plural.

[FightStyles]

Choose the Lucky feat over the skilled. It let's you re-roll three attacks over skills that are pointless when it comes to getting crits.

[Gtdead]

This question isn't so much about opinion rather than math.

Chance to crit per round:
Boring math leading down to

1-(1-crit range)^times rolling

For example, champion 20 rolls 4 times (15% chance to roll a 18)
1-0.85^4 = 0.47 or 47%

Same champion, shoving then attacking, attacks 3+1(pam) times with advantage, 8 rolls
1-0.85^8 = 0.72 or 72%

If you use this formula you will add pam, various weapon dpr, you will eventually reach your sweet spot.
Can't do it atm, I'm typing from the mobile.

But in my opinion, crit fishing builds suck. If you want to do it, play a paladin with pam, and persuade your DM that it's in his best interest to have you roll all your attacks at once. So you can pick a crit to smite with.

Edit:Fixed a mistake, hope it was the only one.
Edit: yes made a second one, fixed now

[Lombra]

Choose the Lucky feat over the skilled. It let's you re-roll three attacks over skills that are pointless when it comes to getting crits.

True but the PC must be able to land them. If it was only for critting ok, but i'd like to keep the PC not restrained during the fights. Luky is so good tho...

[Lombra]

Chance to crit per round:
Boring math leading down to

1-(1-crit range)^times rolling


Which means that my build would crit 62% of the times. More than a full champ without advantage and less than a champ with advantage and PAM. But my build uses a greataxe which has a d12 vs d10 plus bonus d4 of the other... how do I factor in the damage? Plus GWM gives a bonus attack upon critting, which is another potential attack to throw in, not to mention the 1 and 2 re-roll from the fighting style... too complex for me to handle... please help T_T

[Specter]

Champion16/Barbarian 4 looks solid. Your threat range will be 18-20, and advantage is all around with Reckless Attack. You can get Lucky to roll 3 dice instead of 2 on a crucial attack.

Great Weapon Master is also mandatory; critting on 3 numbers and rolling 2 dice, -5 to hit is not so bad, and makes those crits really hurt. Besides, that will give you an extra attack whenever you crit, which should hapoen alot.

[Gtdead]

The formula for Rerolls is 1-(2/d), for example 1d12 = 6.5+1-2/12=7.33, for 2d6 = 2*(3.5+1-2/6) = 8.33

To calculate damage, we need to calculate the dpr and crit chance of a single attack, and then multiply the extra damage with it's crit chance.
Any variations will depend on rolling style or certain class abilities (like for example, since you can choose to sneak attack or smite on a crit, you add the total critical chance to sneak attacks damage instead of a single attack's crit chance)

1 lvl half orc fighter with greataxe, one attack, 5% crit chance, adds an additional d12 on crits
=(1d12+str)+(2d12*0.05)= 7.33+str+0.733= 8.073+str

5 lvl half orc champion fighter with great axe, 2 attacks, 10% crit chance, adds an additional d12 on crits
=((1d12+str)+(2d12*0.1))*2=(7.33+str+1.466)*2= 17.6+2str

7 lvl half orc barbarian 2/champion 5, 2 attacks, reckless advantage for 19% crit chance, adds an additional d12 on crits
=((1d12+str)+(2d12*0.19))*2= ((7.33+str)+(14.66*0.19))*2= 20.23+2str

For Half orc Barb 2/Champion 18, 3 attacks, reckless advantage for 28% crit chance, adds an additional d12 on crits
=((1d12+str)+(2d12*0.28))*3=((7.33+str)+(14.66*0.2 8))*3= 34.3+3str

For Half orc Champion 3/Barbarian 17, 2 attacks, reckless advantage for 19% crit chance, adds 4 additional d12 on crits
=((1d12+str)+(5d12*0.19))*2=((7.33+str)+(36.65*0.1 9))*2= 28.587+2str


Calculating against certain AC class is a bit more complex with criticals because, the higher the AC you attack the higher your critical chance.
For example against 987 AC, you will only hit on a natural 20, giving you a 100% crit chance. I can't bother with that formula though, too complex and not that important. Just multiply with your average hit chance to see how your build performs against high ac.

[sxmedicus]

I would go:
Half orc
Polearm master
Great weapon master
Preferably Fighter champion 11 for the 3rd Extra attack but champion3 would suffice
At least Paladin 2-5(if in need of the normal extra attack) for smite for those tasty 4d8s on crits
Then a full caster to capitalyze on smite, since it is reliable damage while not critting
And if no form of reliable advantage can be provided by the party, the 2 lvl dip on Barbarian could help

Its not a nice and tidy build as Champion20 but gets going from early levels with a lot of breakpoints where the mechanics change for the ADD-players like myself

[N810]

For Half orc Champion 3/Barbarian 17, 2 attacks, reckless advantage for 19% crit chance, adds 4 additional d12 on crits
=((1d12+str)+(5d12*0.19))*2=((7.33+str)+(36.65*0.1 9))*2= 28.587+2str

2 attacks ?
What no frenzy ? :smallfurious:

[EvilAnagram]

But this way I'll get less attacks with less chance to score a critical hit. Sure it will hurt once it lands, but (and no I didn't do any maths) I think that focusing on quantity over quality in this case is better.

It's either you have a better chance of critting when you hit level 20, or you have better crits throughout the rest of your levels.

[Gtdead]

2 attacks ?
What no frenzy ? :smallfurious:

70 dpr.
+1 exhaustion for you.

[djreynolds]

It really depends on your concept. Great axe or S&B. Remember you can shove anytime. Heavy armor though you will lose out on rage and resistance to damage, which is big.

Reckless attack work with rage, because you are taking half damage. But you will need to be in medium armor to use rage.

So are you in plate armor or half plate? Are you using a great axe or S&B? What's your image? Go with that and everything will flow naturally into place.

I had a champion 18/ rogue 2. He was a shield master with a rapier and defensive duelist, I love the survivor feat but the reality is I only got to play a few sessions with him at peak.

That said, 2 levels of rogue goes along way. Expertise in athletics is awesome. Cunning action is awesome.

2 levels of rogue works well a barbarian. You could go 2 rogue, 3 champion, 15 barbarian. Very effective class. You will get enough rage per long rest to open a can of whoop *ss, you can disengage when needed to go help the wizard getting beat up, and expertise coupled with advantage during rage is awesome. Bear totem will really make rage worth it. And you only need GWM and maxed strength.

[N810]

70 dpr.
+1 exhaustion for you.

and about a 10% greater chance of getting a crit.
(due to having more attacks per round)