Is there a way to defend yourself against Dream?

[soldersbushwack]

The spell Dream can cause nightmares to anyone the caster knows on the same plane and very importantly can prevent them gaining the benefit of a long rest. Is there a way to defend against Dream?

I can think of two ways:

- Obtain a really high Wisdom saving throw
- Sleep on a private demiplane

Unfortunately, these methods don't work for 9th level characters which is when Dream starts to be a problem.

[Haveatya]

I used dream on a bbeg caster 3 days in a row after we fought him to prevent him getting slots back. Cheesy spell for sure.

[hymer]

prevent them gaining the benefit of a long rest.

Pull an all-nighter and take your Long Rest 8 hours later than usual, catching the Dream caster out? Or just rest again as soon as you wake up? You can only benefit from 1 long rest per 24 hours, but if you failed your save, you didn't benefit.
Against NPCs with considerable personal power, this spell isn't all that good, as they don't tend to use their resources unless they're fighting the PCs.

Edit: That's assuming the DM even goes with the interpretation that the 'rest' mentioned is the mechanical long or short rest.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell. "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." (PHB p255) It can be cast as a ritual by a 5th level caster (it's a 3rd level Wizard spell) and it lasts for 8 hours; long enough for a Long Rest.

Another class of caster with the right feats or class features could also cast LTH.

Edited to add: LTH can protect up to 9 medium creatures besides the caster, so anyone with an ally capable of casting this spell could benefit from it.

[Vogonjeltz]

The spell Dream can cause nightmares to anyone the caster knows on the same plane and very importantly can prevent them gaining the benefit of a long rest. Is there a way to defend against Dream?

I can think of two ways:

- Obtain a really high Wisdom saving throw
- Sleep on a private demiplane

Unfortunately, these methods don't work for 9th level characters which is when Dream starts to be a problem.

Be an Elf (they are immune).
Mind Blank (8th level)
Don't be on the same plane during your rest.
Rest in a Hallowed location where Courage is the effect (prevents affected creatures from being frightened while in that area, which would negate the terrifying visions in the dream).

So, anyone being tormented via Dream would do well to find a hallowed place until such time as their tormentor can be located (which should be a fairly short list given the power required and the targeting requirements).

[Hrugner]

An illusion sufficient to deceive the messenger into believing you are awake should do the trick.

[Vogonjeltz]

An illusion sufficient to deceive the messenger into believing you are awake should do the trick.

Dream doesn't rely on caster perceptions. It either puts the caster into the targets dream or informs them the target is not asleep. The caster doesn't know where the target is, no illusion spell would have any impact at all.

[Hrugner]

Dream doesn't rely on caster perceptions. It either puts the caster into the targets dream or informs them the target is not asleep. The caster doesn't know where the target is, no illusion spell would have any impact at all.

So you don't believe that a target of a dream spell could have someone else cast a dream spell on them and alter the dream such that it appears that the sleeper is awake? Essentially using the dream illusion to alter the dream to appear as if they themselves are merely waiting in the trance state should work, but I suppose it wouldn't be far fetched to rule otherwise.

[Waazraath]

Stay close to a paladin, to get a +5 bonus on your saving throw? Have a paladin use cleansing touch, before the target goes to sleep? In that way, you don't even need another spell to counter this tactic. And if you use spells, the occasional detect magic (to see if dream is already cast) and then dispel magic should also do the trick.

Especially if the target can just have another go at getting a long rest, isn't 'dream' a terrible spell to damage opponents? Cause how does this work in practice: caster casts 'dream'. Target fails save. Takes another long rest, after the first 8 hours. If the caster wants his tactic to work, he needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another saving throw is failed, the target takes another long rest, for which the caster needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another failed saving throw, the target is exhausted at day 2. But at day 2, there are another 3 chances to benefit from a long rest, and if only one of the three saving throws is succesful, the target recovers from the level of exhaustion gained the first day. So as long as the target makes 1 out of 6 saves, he's safe (even though he needs to rest a lot, after making a saving throw, there is some time to find a cleric, paladin, wizard, hallowed location, whatever.

And don't forget: all this time, the caster is spening all his time casting 3 fifth level slots every day, on specific 8 hours intervals, having to wait for the target to fall asleep. If he wants to know what's going on, he needs to cast the occasional scry spell as well. We're talking a level 10 wizard here, at least, if I'm correct (needing at least 3 lvl 5 slots)? So probably the target of this tactic won't be a random commonor, but someone of importance, with powers (in whatever which way). This means that counter measures should be expected. Does that mean the caster needs non detection up all the time as well? At 75 gc/day? That would mean that the caster spends over half his spell slots, including the most powerful ones, has his day schedule dictated by an 8 hour routine, and needs to invest a lot of rescources, on a tactic that, as long as the victim stays in bed and rests, doesn't have much negative effect.

For me the question is: aren't there much better things a 10th level wizard could do with his time, why would he bother?

[Democratus]

Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell. "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." (PHB p255) It can be cast as a ritual by a 5th level caster (it's a 3rd level Wizard spell) and it lasts for 8 hours; long enough for a Long Rest.


Wow. We have a winner! :smallcool:

[SharkForce]

Stay close to a paladin, to get a +5 bonus on your saving throw? Have a paladin use cleansing touch, before the target goes to sleep? In that way, you don't even need another spell to counter this tactic. And if you use spells, the occasional detect magic (to see if dream is already cast) and then dispel magic should also do the trick.

Especially if the target can just have another go at getting a long rest, isn't 'dream' a terrible spell to damage opponents? Cause how does this work in practice: caster casts 'dream'. Target fails save. Takes another long rest, after the first 8 hours. If the caster wants his tactic to work, he needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another saving throw is failed, the target takes another long rest, for which the caster needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another failed saving throw, the target is exhausted at day 2. But at day 2, there are another 3 chances to benefit from a long rest, and if only one of the three saving throws is succesful, the target recovers from the level of exhaustion gained the first day. So as long as the target makes 1 out of 6 saves, he's safe (even though he needs to rest a lot, after making a saving throw, there is some time to find a cleric, paladin, wizard, hallowed location, whatever.

And don't forget: all this time, the caster is spening all his time casting 3 fifth level slots every day, on specific 8 hours intervals, having to wait for the target to fall asleep. If he wants to know what's going on, he needs to cast the occasional scry spell as well. We're talking a level 10 wizard here, at least, if I'm correct (needing at least 3 lvl 5 slots)? So probably the target of this tactic won't be a random commonor, but someone of importance, with powers (in whatever which way). This means that counter measures should be expected. Does that mean the caster needs non detection up all the time as well? At 75 gc/day? That would mean that the caster spends over half his spell slots, including the most powerful ones, has his day schedule dictated by an 8 hour routine, and needs to invest a lot of rescources, on a tactic that, as long as the victim stays in bed and rests, doesn't have much negative effect.

For me the question is: aren't there much better things a 10th level wizard could do with his time, why would he bother?

the wizard only needs to spend a bit of time every 8 hours, so long as the wizard has at least one ally willing to be the messenger.

[tieren]

Stay close to a paladin, to get a +5 bonus on your saving throw? Have a paladin use cleansing touch, before the target goes to sleep? In that way, you don't even need another spell to counter this tactic. And if you use spells, the occasional detect magic (to see if dream is already cast) and then dispel magic should also do the trick.

Especially if the target can just have another go at getting a long rest, isn't 'dream' a terrible spell to damage opponents? Cause how does this work in practice: caster casts 'dream'. Target fails save. Takes another long rest, after the first 8 hours. If the caster wants his tactic to work, he needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another saving throw is failed, the target takes another long rest, for which the caster needs to have cast another dream. Assuming another failed saving throw, the target is exhausted at day 2. But at day 2, there are another 3 chances to benefit from a long rest, and if only one of the three saving throws is succesful, the target recovers from the level of exhaustion gained the first day. So as long as the target makes 1 out of 6 saves, he's safe (even though he needs to rest a lot, after making a saving throw, there is some time to find a cleric, paladin, wizard, hallowed location, whatever.

And don't forget: all this time, the caster is spening all his time casting 3 fifth level slots every day, on specific 8 hours intervals, having to wait for the target to fall asleep. If he wants to know what's going on, he needs to cast the occasional scry spell as well. We're talking a level 10 wizard here, at least, if I'm correct (needing at least 3 lvl 5 slots)? So probably the target of this tactic won't be a random commonor, but someone of importance, with powers (in whatever which way). This means that counter measures should be expected. Does that mean the caster needs non detection up all the time as well? At 75 gc/day? That would mean that the caster spends over half his spell slots, including the most powerful ones, has his day schedule dictated by an 8 hour routine, and needs to invest a lot of rescources, on a tactic that, as long as the victim stays in bed and rests, doesn't have much negative effect.

For me the question is: aren't there much better things a 10th level wizard could do with his time, why would he bother?

Well, locking down the enemy caster so he can't recover spell slots or literally has to leave the advancing party and just stay in bed for a couple of days could be huge. I could see a nemesis hiring a couple messenger henchmen just to screw with you like this.

[Tanarii]

Especially if the target can just have another go at getting a long rest, isn't 'dream' a terrible spell to damage opponents?You can only take one long rest in a 24 hour period. If Dream screws it up, you can't take another immediately.


Leomund's Tiny Hut will easily stop the Dream spell. "Spells and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome or be cast through it." (PHB p255) It can be cast as a ritual by a 5th level caster (it's a 3rd level Wizard spell) and it lasts for 8 hours; long enough for a Long Rest.That feels like cheese for some reason. But it appears your logic is undeniable.

[hymer]

You can only take one long rest in a 24 hour period. If Dream screws it up, you can't take another immediately.

Actually, the wording is that you can only 'benefit' from one long rest per 24 hours. If your first attempt got screwed up by a Dream spell, you didn't benefit.
Who says you need to sleep during a long rest, anyway?

[Tanarii]

If your first attempt got screwed up by a Dream spell, you didn't benefit.Egads. Serious wordsmithing & rules pretzeling for the win.

[Temperjoke]

Egads. Serious wordsmithing & rules pretzeling for the win.

Eh, I don't see it as rules pretzeling, necessarily. I mean, there are days that I've been in bed for the whole day, and didn't feel any more rested than if I had gotten up after sleeping 8 hours. :P

[Tanarii]

Eh, I don't see it as rules pretzeling, necessarily. I mean, there are days that I've been in bed for the whole day, and didn't feel any more rested than if I had gotten up after sleeping 8 hours. :PI'm talking about finding a way to say: oh I didn't get any benefit from this long rest because Dream, so I can immediately do another and benefit from it instead.

[Temperjoke]

I'm talking about finding a way to say: oh I didn't get any benefit from this long rest because Dream, so I can immediately do another and benefit from it instead.

Well, after having a nightmare, do you try to go back to sleep? Granted, it's pretty out of character to try again because you didn't benefit from a mechanic. Of course, is there anything preventing the BBEG from hitting a person who tries this with Dream again?

[Mellack]

I'm talking about finding a way to say: oh I didn't get any benefit from this long rest because Dream, so I can immediately do another and benefit from it instead.

Seems reasonable to me. If you wake up still exhausted from the nightmares, why wouldn't you try going back to sleep? It only sounds cheesy if you look at the mechanical aspect. RP it seems fine.

[MaxWilson]

Serious wordsmithing & rules pretzeling for the win.

That's a pretty sour attitude.

@Temperjoke, that's an interesting point. As a DM I might find it persuasive.

[Tanarii]

Well, after having a nightmare, do you try to go back to sleep? Granted, it's pretty out of character to try again because you didn't benefit from a mechanic. Of course, is there anything preventing the BBEG from hitting a person who tries this with Dream again?


Seems reasonable to me. If you wake up still exhausted from the nightmares, why wouldn't you try going back to sleep? It only sounds cheesy if you look at the mechanical aspect. RP it seems fine.No. I am tired all day because I didn't get the benefit of my rest. I don't try to sleep away another 8 hours. First of all because my body won't let me, and second of all because who does that?


That's a pretty sour attitude.Sure smells like attempted rules abuse to me, in order to dodge what's a clear intent of a spell.

[Temperjoke]

No. I am tired all day because I didn't get the benefit of my rest. I don't try to sleep away another 8 hours. First of all because my body won't let me, and second of all because who does that?

Sure smells like attempted rules abuse to me.

I think you're looking at it like "Oh, that 8 hours of sleep didn't do any good, I'm going to try and sleep for another 8 hours."

I'm looking at it like "Well, that nightmare woke me up about 2 hours in, so I'll go back to sleep and try to get some rest. I may wake up a little later than I had intended, but I might be able to get some sleep."

Also, a long rest isn't purely 8 hours of sleep, it's a minimum of 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep combined with light activity. In real life, I usually get around 6 hours of sleep typically, followed by a leisurely morning routine.

[Tanarii]

I think you're looking at it like "Oh, that 8 hours of sleep didn't do any good, I'm going to try and sleep for another 8 hours."

I'm looking at it like "Well, that nightmare woke me up about 2 hours in, so I'll go back to sleep and try to get some rest. I may wake up a little later than I had intended, but I might be able to get some sleep."That doesn't line up mechanically. You finished one 8 hr long rest, got no benefit, then try to take another and gain the benefit. That's 16 hours of time.

Edit: Also, I'll note, the nightmare from Dream lasts the duration of your sleep. It's not a short nightmare you wake up from. It's an ongoing one.


Also, a long rest isn't purely 8 hours of sleep, it's a minimum of 6 hours of uninterrupted sleep combined with light activity. In real life, I usually get around 6 hours of sleep typically, followed by a leisurely morning routine.No its not but that was the context the questions were framed to me in regarding nightmares and trying to go back to sleep.

[Temperjoke]

That doesn't line up mechanically. You finished one 8 hr long rest, got no benefit, then try to take another and gain the benefit. That's 16 hours of time.

Edit: Also, I'll note, the nightmare from Dream lasts the duration of your sleep. It's not a short nightmare you wake up from. It's an ongoing one.


Right, but is Dream interrupted or broken if you wake up before the 8 hours is complete? Or does it hit you again if you go back to sleep before the 8 hour spell duration is complete? The possibility also exists that if the person woke up in the middle of me trying to keep them awake, isn't there a chance that I would cancel the spell, thinking the job is done? I'm not trying to say that you're wrong in your interpretation, just trying to offer counterpoints.

[Tanarii]

Right, but is Dream interrupted or broken if you wake up before the 8 hours is complete? Or does it hit you again if you go back to sleep before the 8 hour spell duration is complete? The possibility also exists that if the person woke up in the middle of me trying to keep them awake, isn't there a chance that I would cancel the spell, thinking the job is done? I'm not trying to say that you're wrong in your interpretation, just trying to offer counterpoints.
That doesn't change the duration of the 8 hour attempted rest you gained no benefit from. You don't get to scrub it and start a new long rest over again.

"nonono these 4 hours aren't part of that OLD long rest! I stopped that one. I'm starting a NEW long rest!" :smallannoyed:

[Temperjoke]

That doesn't change the duration of the 8 hour attempted rest you gained no benefit from. You don't get to scrub it and start a new long rest over again.

"nonono these 4 hours aren't part of that OLD long rest! I stopped that one. I'm starting a NEW long rest!" :smallannoyed:

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I realize you're still framing things based on the original point of 8 hours sleep, but if I spent a total of 12 hours trying to rest, and the nightmare interrupted during the first 4 hours, but I still got the minimum required sleep/rest period, then I feel that should count. Especially since it came with an opportunity cost of the loss of an additional 4 hours of the day, which gave the enemy more time to bolster his defenses or for his army to march on the town, etc.

[Tanarii]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I realize you're still framing things based on the original point of 8 hours sleep, but if I spent a total of 12 hours trying to rest, and the nightmare interrupted during the first 4 hours, but I still got the minimum required sleep/rest period, then I feel that should count. Especially since it came with an opportunity cost of the loss of an additional 4 hours of the day, which gave the enemy more time to bolster his defenses or for his army to march on the town, etc.I'm NOT framing things on 8 hours of sleep. You don't just get to scrub a Long Rest half way through, then declare that the last 4 hours of it were actually part of a NEW Long Rest. It's the same 4 hours. It's one Long Rest being continued. You're just not getting any benefit from it. If you want the benefit of a Long Rest when you didn't get it from the first one, you need a complete 8 hours after the first 8 hours has ended, not just 8 from an arbitrary "this is the new Long Rest start point".

[Waazraath]

the wizard only needs to spend a bit of time every 8 hours, so long as the wizard has at least one ally willing to be the messenger.

You're right of course, but doesn't that make that ally a likely target for divinition spells? If so, the wizard either will need to spend another 3 slots on nondetection (assuming a lvl 10 wizard, that would cost him all his lvl 3 slots (nondetection on himself), all his level 4 slots (nondetection on ally), and all his lvl 5 slots (including arcane recovery) for 3 dreams. Though it might be an interesting adventure hook for a mid level party, being annoyed by an adversery through dreams, having to track down the ally, find it, make him give information on how to find the wizard, etc.


Well, locking down the enemy caster so he can't recover spell slots or literally has to leave the advancing party and just stay in bed for a couple of days could be huge. I could see a nemesis hiring a couple messenger henchmen just to screw with you like this.

It's a fun idea. Still, it shouldn't be an obstacle that is too hard to overcome, a party of 6th level should have access to at least some of the defenses mentioned in this thread; a lower level party really shouldn't mess with a level 10 wizard (or any level 10 character, for that matter).


Egads. Serious wordsmithing & rules pretzeling for the win.

I really don't see it this way, I think hymer's interpretation is solid, RAW and very plausible RAI. Yes, I do think that you need to spend another 8 hours to get a full rest, after not benefited the original 8 hours, but that if those 8 hours are uninterupted, I don't see any reason, neither in the 'long rest' section nor in the description of the 'dream' spell, why you wouldn't benefit from this rest. If I lay in bed 8 hours, won't sleep for whatever reason, have breakfast, go to bed another 8 hours and sleep in this period, why wouldn't I be rested after that?

[Tanarii]

I really don't see it this way, I think hymer's interpretation is solid, RAW and very plausible RAI. Yes, I do think that you need to spend another 8 hours to get a full rest, after not benefited the original 8 hours, but that if those 8 hours are uninterupted, I don't see any reason, neither in the 'long rest' section nor in the description of the 'dream' spell, why you wouldn't benefit from this rest. If I lay in bed 8 hours, won't sleep for whatever reason, have breakfast, go to bed another 8 hours and sleep in this period, why wouldn't I be rested after that?
Sure looks like strict reading of RAW to me too. But I think it thoroughly destroys the RAI for the Dream spell.

[Waazraath]

Sure looks like strict reading of RAW to me too. But I think it thoroughly destroys the RAI for the Dream spell. Dunno. The spell has two parts, the first part is utility, and interesting enough to contact people on the other side of the world. Only the second part can be used offensively. And, given the fact that the caster can use this spell without putting himself in any direct risk, not allowing another go at a long rest seems unbalanced to me. But this is also just an opinion, maybe someone who uses Twitter can ask a dev?

[SharkForce]

You're right of course, but doesn't that make that ally a likely target for divinition spells? If so, the wizard either will need to spend another 3 slots on nondetection (assuming a lvl 10 wizard, that would cost him all his lvl 3 slots (nondetection on himself), all his level 4 slots (nondetection on ally), and all his lvl 5 slots (including arcane recovery) for 3 dreams. Though it might be an interesting adventure hook for a mid level party, being annoyed by an adversery through dreams, having to track down the ally, find it, make him give information on how to find the wizard, etc.

which divination spells? there's no "track down the caster of a dream spell" divination.

[RulesJD]

Any DM that isn't granting levels of Exhaustion for those impacting by Dream isn't doing it right. It is actually an extremely deadly spell solely due to the Exhaustion rules.

[Vogonjeltz]

So you don't believe that a target of a dream spell could have someone else cast a dream spell on them and alter the dream such that it appears that the sleeper is awake? Essentially using the dream illusion to alter the dream to appear as if they themselves are merely waiting in the trance state should work, but I suppose it wouldn't be far fetched to rule otherwise.

No, it's that the order of operations (per the spell) is wrong.

Wizard casts Dream targeting someone they know (Billy). If Billy is awake, the Wizard knows it and can wait around or end the spell. If Billy is asleep, the Wizard is automatically inserted into the dream at which point they can do the rest of the task.

So mechanically there's nobody to try and fool. The spell simply works or does not based on Billy's actual state (awake or asleep), and the Wizard remains aware of their surroundings.

As written the spell only allows the caster to interact with the target, although I think it would be a fascinating ruling to allow multiple Dream spells to interact with the same target (and each other) at the same time, similar to the way the Wheel of Time handles dreams or the 80s movie Dreamscape allowed the characters to all enter a subjects dreams and fight each other at the same time (to lethal results).
So...that's an awesome idea, but it would require the DM approval to get there and a player would be in the right to object to the DM just doing that without warning it was a possibility.

[Temperjoke]

Any DM that isn't granting levels of Exhaustion for those impacting by Dream isn't doing it right. It is actually an extremely deadly spell solely due to the Exhaustion rules.

The spell doesn't state anything about hitting people with levels of exhaustion just from being hit with the spell. Maybe if it persisted for multiple days, and the victim was unable to gain a long rest at all, but that falls under long rest rules, and not from the Dream spell.

[SharkForce]

The spell doesn't state anything about hitting people with levels of exhaustion just from being hit with the spell. Maybe if it persisted for multiple days, and the victim was unable to gain a long rest at all, but that falls under long rest rules, and not from the Dream spell.

well, there should be rules for not getting sleep. whether you get a "long rest" or not, if you aren't getting sleep, you are eventually going to get into problems that just resting alone will not fix.

[tsotate]

well, there should be rules for not getting sleep. whether you get a "long rest" or not, if you aren't getting sleep, you are eventually going to get into problems that just resting alone will not fix.
There should be, sure. There aren't.

That's why we have things like the short rest only sorlock.

[SharkForce]

There should be, sure. There aren't.

That's why we have things like the short rest only sorlock.

the short rest sorlock actually sleeps. that's why it has to be an elf of some form. 4 hours is enough for their need to sleep, but is not a long rest.

[Carlobrand]

well, there should be rules for not getting sleep. whether you get a "long rest" or not, if you aren't getting sleep, you are eventually going to get into problems that just resting alone will not fix.

The spell doesn't say you're not getting sleep. The spell says your sleep is disrupted by a nightmare that prevents you getting long-rest benefits and does psychic damage. You're still getting sleep, you're even getting REM sleep, it's just a very terrifying sleep: "On a failed save, echoes of the phantasmal monstrosity spawn a nightmare that lasts the duration of the target’s sleep and prevents the target from gaining any benefit from that rest. In addition, when the target wakes up, it takes 3d6 psychic damage."

So, you don't regain HP, you don't regain spent hit dice, you don't regain spell slots, etc. You most likely wake terrified. You do not wake exhausted.

The only odd point there is disrupted sleep shouldn't really interfere with physical healing. The game standard for exhaustion is pretty high: "A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion." So, the first level of Exhaustion is equivalent to how an average person would feel after going without food for about 3 days.

I'm not sure we can say waking after a full night's nightmarish sleep is equivalent to three days without food. My personal inclination would be to implement a slight penalty for being somewhat less alert from disrupted sleep, but nothing of the severity of a disadvantage, and frankly that penalty would go away when the adrenaline kicked in, so it would be irrelevant to combat. The game overall seems to have avoided the old -1/-2/-etc penalties and replace it with a more onerous but less frequently encountered Disadvantage.

[Carlobrand]

the short rest sorlock actually sleeps. that's why it has to be an elf of some form. 4 hours is enough for their need to sleep, but is not a long rest.

Uh, elves don't sleep. PHB: "Trance: Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

And a short rest does not require sleep. It only requires an hour doing "nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

[RickAllison]

You're right of course, but doesn't that make that ally a likely target for divinition spells? If so, the wizard either will need to spend another 3 slots on nondetection (assuming a lvl 10 wizard, that would cost him all his lvl 3 slots (nondetection on himself), all his level 4 slots (nondetection on ally), and all his lvl 5 slots (including arcane recovery) for 3 dreams. Though it might be an interesting adventure hook for a mid level party, being annoyed by an adversery through dreams, having to track down the ally, find it, make him give information on how to find the wizard, etc.

I do have to wonder how the target can divine the messenger.


You can make the messenger appear monstrous and terrifying to the target.

How does the target know whom to divine? If we take Locate Creature as an example, the target has to describe or name the messenger. With Dream making the messenger appear different and the messenger probably not giving out his business card, how does the target have any idea what to scry?

[SharkForce]

The spell doesn't say you're not getting sleep. The spell says your sleep is disrupted by a nightmare that prevents you getting long-rest benefits and does psychic damage. You're still getting sleep, you're even getting REM sleep, it's just a very terrifying sleep: "On a failed save, echoes of the phantasmal monstrosity spawn a nightmare that lasts the duration of the target’s sleep and prevents the target from gaining any benefit from that rest. In addition, when the target wakes up, it takes 3d6 psychic damage."

So, you don't regain HP, you don't regain spent hit dice, you don't regain spell slots, etc. You most likely wake terrified. You do not wake exhausted.

The only odd point there is disrupted sleep shouldn't really interfere with physical healing. The game standard for exhaustion is pretty high: "A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion." So, the first level of Exhaustion is equivalent to how an average person would feel after going without food for about 3 days.

I'm not sure we can say waking after a full night's nightmarish sleep is equivalent to three days without food. My personal inclination would be to implement a slight penalty for being somewhat less alert from disrupted sleep, but nothing of the severity of a disadvantage, and frankly that penalty would go away when the adrenaline kicked in, so it would be irrelevant to combat. The game overall seems to have avoided the old -1/-2/-etc penalties and replace it with a more onerous but less frequently encountered Disadvantage.

you don't gain any benefits from the rest. getting sleep would be a benefit that you would have obtained from that rest.

and no, i don't expect a single missed night of sleep to put a level of exhaustion on you, necessarily. but eventually, it will. 3+ days of not eating before exhaustion seems rather silly to me (at least, for someone who is presumably exerting themselves and at early levels at least is not that far beyond a regular person today if at all), but if those are the rules we're going with, i'd expect at least a couple of sleepless nights before you start to really suffer the effects. i mean, i've missed out on a night's sleep before and not been useless the next day, so i suppose if we're assuming superhuman heroes we can give them at least a couple of nights before they start to feel it. but they *will* start to feel it sooner or later.


Uh, elves don't sleep. PHB: "Trance: Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

And a short rest does not require sleep. It only requires an hour doing "nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

fine :rolleyes:

they spend a period of time semiconcious that is practically speaking exactly like sleeping apart from the fact that we're not calling it sleeping, thus meeting their biological need for sleep as effectively as a human would from sleeping. i'm sure that is super-duper different that we need to distinguish it, because heaven forbid we should call it sleeping when it is only identical in every way except for the name.

[Temperjoke]

fine :rolleyes:

they spend a period of time semiconcious that is practically speaking exactly like sleeping apart from the fact that we're not calling it sleeping, thus meeting their biological need for sleep as effectively as a human would from sleeping. i'm sure that is super-duper different that we need to distinguish it, because heaven forbid we should call it sleeping when it is only identical in every way except for the name.

Well, it is different from sleep, since Dream specifically states that "Creatures that don't sleep, such as elves, can't be contacted by this spell."

[Battlebooze]

A particularly obvious defense is your basic Dispel Magic.

Just have your Wizard or cleric cast Detect Magic to see if you are under a illusion spell, then if yes, blamo, dispel it.

[SharkForce]

A particularly obvious defense is your basic Dispel Magic.

Just have your Wizard or cleric cast Detect Magic to see if you are under a illusion spell, then if yes, blamo, dispel it.

so now they are supposed to just stay awake 24/7 just in case someone is being attacked by dream?

[EvilAnagram]

so now they are supposed to just stay awake 24/7 just in case someone is being attacked by dream?

Elven and Warforged casters can do it with no consequences.

[SharkForce]

Elven and Warforged casters can do it with no consequences.

it is unlikely that spamming constant rituals counts as light activity.

edit: and even more unlikely that it counts as trance.

[Waazraath]

which divination spells? there's no "track down the caster of a dream spell" divination.

True, but there is good old ´divinition´, that should give you a clue ('short phrase, cryptic rrhyme, or an omen') from your god concerning a specific goal. Based on that clue, you can start to investigate, using the skill, mundane means like talking / researching, spells like augury / contact other plane / commune to get yes / no-like answers, to see if you're on the right track. As soon as you've identified the caster and / or the messenger in the dream spell, you can start using scry. It depends on the campaign / DM how much work this is, but it should be doable.

[SharkForce]

practically speaking, there's no way to identify the messenger in a dream spell if they don't want to be. they don't even have to look the same every time they cast the spell.

[JoeJ]

practically speaking, there's no way to identify the messenger in a dream spell if they don't want to be. they don't even have to look the same every time they cast the spell.

The list of suspects is probably going to be pretty short, though. At least, unless your world has a bunch of teenage wizards who like to make prank Dream calls to random strangers.

[kaoskonfety]

The list of suspects is probably going to be pretty short, though. At least, unless your world has a bunch of teenage wizards who like to make prank Dream calls to random strangers.

In one high level game as an Elf I used dream to send messages to my fellow high level (human) allies as "visions from their gods", delivered by the DM, to get the party together for quests and hammed up being amazed that they found me in my 'time of need'...

They all thought is was the DM using ham fisted non-sense for light railroading till the cat got out of the bag when I had to use it to keep a big-bad from recovering his spell slots while we fled his kingdoms, it was a hoot.

[Waazraath]

practically speaking, there's no way to identify the messenger in a dream spell if they don't want to be. they don't even have to look the same every time they cast the spell.

No, you don't get a straight up identification. But divination, at least the way I read it and it has been played at my tables, should give you a lead. It's a riddle, given to you by your god, to help you reach a specific goal. Could be a cryptic description of the messenger's home village, or whatever clue the DM likes; but it should give you a place to start (or else the cleric should find another deity).

[Vogonjeltz]

Uh, elves don't sleep. PHB: "Trance: Elves don’t need to sleep. Instead, they meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. (The Common word for such meditation is “trance.”) While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep."

And a short rest does not require sleep. It only requires an hour doing "nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds."

A long rest doesn't require sleep either, you can do light activity for 8 hours and that counts.

[Zalabim]

The list of suspects is probably going to be pretty short, though. At least, unless your world has a bunch of teenage wizards who like to make prank Dream calls to random strangers.

The list of suspects gets shorter since the caster of Dream has to know the target. It can be harder when you're famous and everyone knows you, but there's always a trail. You're playing six degrees of that obnoxious wizard.