Need some help with role playing and character

[DarthSpader]

I recently started up a game as a player with a larger group. My character is a human paladin. Here's the issue: (I'm already imitating talks with Dm as well so please don't just suggest that - I need some ideas on what to do. Obviously Dm and I will talk and finalize anything. I'm hoping for some brainstorm ideas here from the awsome Giants community)

Our party is working for a boss. It's the set story and campaign feature. Boss is kind of a ****. (Yells at guards/mayors/employees for nothing and everything. The boss's enforcer is also prety dickish slave driver type. Not major issues on thier own.. But the party consists of a "I should be nuetrel evil" fighter, and another character that has an intelligent highly evil sword, that he talks to and bases his actions off. Awsome characters and the players are doing a great job role playing them.

The issue I have - is figuring out how a lawful good paladin can justify being in this party. The paladin code is pretty specific about not allowing evil or associating with it. And clearly the group has at least 2 characters that are ... Treading that line really close. (The one characters sword very obviously detects as evil)

So how can I justify this without becoming a "fallen" paladin? I never intended to play the stick in the mud lawful stupid type, and in fact was focusing more on the "good"'aspect then lawful (helping people who need it, doing what's right, and being the overall "good guy" ) but I'm struggling to justify how my character would put up with the group and his boss.

Any help here would be super awsome.

[Ortesk]

For one, the DM should have told you that the group were all evil. Then it would have been on you if you rolled paladin.

And a paladin, in character, would kill them. Kill the boss, the slaver, and the party. Unless he never sees the evil. But you have already fallen if you have ignored them being evil.

I would just reroll the character to fit in the group

[Gildedragon]

Work for them but hamper their evil deeds; you might want to Gray Guard soon.

So if you're sent to collect money, you prevent your partymates from slaughtering the debtors.

But overall a paladin in an all evil party is about as fun as... well... a paladin in an all evil party, that is to say no fun at all.

I'd go Crusader, keep the LG alignment. You enforce contracts as mercifully as you can, and prevent abuses of power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reread your PHB. The associates portion of the class description is -separate- from the code of conduct. It's either poorly placed RP advice or a paladin is -incapable- of associating with evil characters. The latter is -obviously- nonsensical so it can only be the former, save the last sentence. You can't accept hirelings, followers, or cohorts that are not LG. That's all that segment actually means.

That being the case, simply being evil isn't smite-worthy on its own. The character needs to have either done evil that you know about to earn your divine retribution or has to be -dedicated- to evil (cleric) or made of it (fiend). As long as they don't do evil in front of you, there's no reason not to adventure with them when you work for the same employer. Whether you should work for that employer is the better question. Provided that they aren't evil themselves and aren't demanding those in their employ do evil then that should be fine as well.

That sword is another matter, though. It -is- a piece of magic dedicated to evil and needs to be either redeemed or destroyed. You can put it on the back burner for now but as it tries more and more to push your ally toward evil you need to oppose it and if it pushes far enough then you're going to come to a crossroads where you either put your foot down and take it from him or leave the party, provided you haven't reached that point for other reasons before then.

You should probably decide now whether you're going to go for redemption or the fall. You can only balance on the knife's edge for so long before you have to pick a side. You'll -eventually- have to either try to redeem the evil in your party, fall to evil yourself, or retire the character.

[ATHATH]

I'm seconding being a Greyguard.

You could also try one of the variant Paladins present in Dragon Magazine; there's one for every alignment except LG, (but that's covered by the normal Paladin class).

[Kelvarius]

Paladins are more than just holy vanquishers of evil. They are an inspiration; the last bulwark of all that is good. By definition, they're practically exalted. Just because someone IS evil is not enough to condemn him/her to death. Remember, Paladins are also lawful, and killing someone just because they're evil is not only a chaotic act (Because that would be vigilantism), it is against the Paladin's code to do so (Respecting legal authority, which would likely say something along the lines of no murdering people and that's what it would be if they haven't done anything other than be evil).

Now, with all that said, yes the PHB does say that Paladins can't knowingly associate with evil. Personally, I think that's stupid, both as a DM and a player. And you should probably speak with your DM about that specifically being removed. And the reason for that, and why I mention all of the above, is that Paladins are exemplars of good. They do more than just go on a fanatical crusade against evil. They also prove to people the good in humanity as a shining beacon of goodness.

They teach by example. They show compassion, forgiveness, even when no one else will.

That last line is important, so I'll say it again.

They teach by example. They show compassion, forgiveness, even when no one else will.

Who needs to see that there's more to the world than selfishness and greed and other vices of mankind?

Who needs to remember what it was once like to be loved and accepted?

Who needs to be shown that, despite all they've done, can still be redeemed?

Who needs compassion and forgiveness more than those that have strayed furthest from the light?

And that is why you adventure with evil.

Except that sword. It needs to be sundered.

[Yahzi]

They teach by example.
This is an excellent idea. Since these guys aren't actually evil yet, the paladin is trying to convince them to come over to the side of good. He will know he succeeded when they volunteer to destroy the evil sword.
And should they slip and fall into darkness, the paladin will be there... to put them down before they do any harm to others.:smallsmile:

[Jay R]

If the missions are evil, then the paladin must do PvP. He cannot help them with evil goals, even if he's just guarding the door while the murders, or whatever, occur.

So besides talking to the DM, talk to the players. Ask them if there's a way a non-hypocritical paladin can be part of the group.

Maybe they want to play PvP. Maybe their missions are good, but they are willing to do evil to get it done (in which case the game is the paladin trying to prevent that and accomplish the mission with good methods.

But the paladin cannot, cannot, cannot undertake to accomplish evil missions.

So you may have to change your character to play in this game.

[DarthSpader]

The character with the evil sword is a tiefling. (The other one I mentioned is asimar - kind of a wtf moment there too)


I have games with this group before. It's a lot of fun - but they always tend towards the murder hobo / chaotic violent end of things.

The evil sword I agree is the primary issue. Now aparently backstory is we have been working together a year now, and "have already had this converation" but that almost makes it worse. How on earth can a paladin - even one dedicated to being the good example and looking to redeem (i.e. A Shepard book type) put up with this for a year?!? Directly confronting the swords character WILL result in either a big battle where I'm fighting the entire group, or that characters player may end up taking it personally. ( wich he may do if I ask him to alter the character and remove the evil aspect of his sword. - it's fine if it's sentient... But just make it nuetrel or something? )

But yea. I love all the ideas so far.... I'm just not sure. Given the 1 year history... It's a hard concept to do. Wich sucks, cause i really enjoy the paladin class, and was looking forward To running this guy as that last bulwark of good, and not being a total stick up the ass lawful idiot type.

[Kelvarius]

I have games with this group before. It's a lot of fun - but they always tend towards the murder hobo / chaotic violent end of things.

The evil sword I agree is the primary issue. Now aparently backstory is we have been working together a year now, and "have already had this converation" but that almost makes it worse. How on earth can a paladin - even one dedicated to being the good example and looking to redeem (i.e. A Shepard book type) put up with this for a year?!? Directly confronting the swords character WILL result in either a big battle where I'm fighting the entire group, or that characters player may end up taking it personally. ( wich he may do if I ask him to alter the character and remove the evil aspect of his sword. - it's fine if it's sentient... But just make it nuetrel or something? )


I would suggest you speak with the other players OOC about it. Perhaps your paladin already has made an impression. Perhaps where the Aasimar was in fact evil before, he is now neutral (Even if he should be evil as you said in the original post). Perhaps the Tiefling was more easily swayed by the sword's influence before (And to reflect that, perhaps also speak with the DM about giving the Tiefling player a small bonus to the ego check if that's in play when he's near you)

But though you've made progress, your work is not yet finished. They still have yet to fully embrace what you offer, and like any truly good person, you refuse to give up on them simply because it's become a burden.

As for the sword itself, yes, it clearly makes you uncomfortable. But it is still the lawful property of the Tiefling. So you can't steal it to get rid of it. You can't just destroy it without his permission. You can't do anything about it and still uphold the law unless he willingly gives it up. And to this end, I suggest you speak with the player again about this goal in mind. Don't ask him to get rid of the sword, or to change it, just let him know "Hey. This is an issue that will eventually come up in game and I don't want it to come down to me versus you. We don't have to do anything now since we're only just starting, but I wanted to let you know that at some point it will happen. Keep an open mind for any alternatives."

It's a common saying around here that D&D is a fun group activity. So everyone at the group should have fun, but not at the expense of anyone else. He should be allowed to play the character he wants, you should be allowed to play the character you want, and it shouldn't have to come down to PvP.

Also, all this being said, what level is the group starting at? A sentient sword seems a bit much for level 1 adventurers.

[DarthSpader]

Started at 3rd. It's not an overly powerful one, and i don't know much about it

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do recall that the "lawful" in lawful good doesn't necessarily mean that you obey every law of the land. It means that you respect the concepts of rule of law, weight of tradition, and social and legal hierarchy. If the law of the land would unduly infringe on your duty as a paladin it is not only okay but part of your duty to ignore that law.

Property law and the destruction or redemption of evil items seems like rather an obvious decision. Redeem the sword and give it back -after- it becomes clear that the sword is influencing its owner unduly rather than him containing its evil.

Your code requires you to respect legitimate authority as a principle. That doesn't mean you can never go against legitimate authority when it occasionally gets one wrong.

[DarthSpader]

So had a chat with the Dm. He agrees it's a concern - but dosent think I'm in danger of falling. So that's a plus. We both agreed that I'll keep playing the character for now (although I'll be making an edit since it was rushed)

It seems that the tiefling is sort of "new" to the world and dosent know how to behave or act. The sword is something akin to his version of a jimminiy cricket or something. It's not enhanced or anything. Just mw I think. So aparently it's the Paladins job or role to be a guide rail for him. Sort of steer or direct him away from the bad. The asimar I think is in a sort of simaler position - but not sure.

As for the sword itself I suppose it'll have to be dealt with soon enough. But as long as it's not getting its owner to do anything straight up evil, I can tolerate it. (While keeping at least one eye on it at all times) - but both Dm and I agreed the main thing we want to avoid is me vrs the group or a player in a pvp situation. So I will use the above suggestions to roleplay the character and hopefully things don't get crazy.

So then, how does one go about "redeeming" an evil item? Obviously I'd like to allow the guy to keep his sword. So redemption is the path id prefer. But how does this occur in game?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Someone in the paladin's church that knows how to craft magic arms and armor can redeem an evil weapon by spending the same time and XP that was used to create the weapon, per BoED 119.

The DM may want to do something more creative but that's the by the book method.

If you'd prefer to do it yourself, you'll need to either take the feat or find a forge of thautam (RoS).

[Gildedragon]

There's also a krynn artifact: the Silver Arm of... Somebody. Gives you crafting feats and some other stuff I think.

[Telonius]

Redeeming an evil item could be - in itself - a pretty awesome quest. You could fluff it as exorcising a demon within the sword. Or maybe binding a Good personality (maybe contained in a broken sword to be reforged with it), to fight the evil for all of eternity, and letting the Tiefling be free to listen to either of them.