Can you really craft a quarterstaff from nothing, in zero time?

[LastCenturion]

The answer to this question is, at a glance, a resounding No, but looking closer, it could be yes. That's certainly the most common answer on these forums.

The rules for the Craft skill say that you need to spend zero copper pieces to produce something with zero cost (like a staff, or a club, or a sling) so the the answer to the first part of the question is yes. There aren't any rules that spring out to me that circumvent that.

The second part of the question is trickier. This is the part that this forums is most fond of quoting ("just pull quarterstaves out of thin air as free actions until your DM gives in and lets you do the thing we're talking about"). The explanation given is that you can craft items in one week, when you succeed on the check (DC 12 for a simple weapon)
If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.

So the answer looks like yes, but look closer. The time required to make an item is 1 week over X, where x is the check result times the DC, divided by the cost of the item. Let's say you get a result of 15 on the check. Thus, the requisite time is 1 week over the quantity 180 over 0. 1/(180/0), because the cost of a quarterstaff is zero.

Since any number besides zero, divided by zero is no quantity, the time required to make a quarterstaff is one divided by no quantity. Following this logic, quarterstaves (and clubs, and slings) are impossible to craft. And because they must be crafted to exist, quarterstaves do not exist and never have.

TL;DR: The statement "Quarterstaves require no time to craft" is false. The statement "Quarterstaves don't require time to craft" is more accurate. Quarterstaves do not exist and never have. I knew the monks were making it up. Killing people with a stick was too good to be true.

[Morcleon]

Actually, 1/(180/0)) ends up being 0. 180/0 is infinity, and 1/infinity is 0. So quarterstaffs take 0 seconds to craft.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, 1/(180/0)) ends up being 0. 180/0 is infinity, and 1/infinity is 0. So quarterstaffs take 0 seconds to craft.

180/0 is undefined, not infinity.

[Morcleon]

180/0 is undefined, not infinity.

Whoops, yeah. Mixed up that with limits. :smallredface:

1/(180/0)) can also be written as 1*(0/180), which goes to 1*0 and then to 0.

[ATHATH]

Do magical quarterstaves exist?

[Jay R]

It's usually pretty easy to answer these questions if you are looking for a reasonable answer.

A quarterstaff takes no time to create if you are standing in a forest with six-foot staves already cut and cleared.

If you are in a forest of standing trees, I would require you to cut down the right size tree, cut it to the right height, and trim limbs off. The total time needed for cutting it down and cutting it to size would be a few minutes. Trimming it would take maybe ten minutes, which you could do while walking or riding. So it takes no serious time away from your planned day. In that sense, it "takes zero time".

That doesn't mean that you can create a quarterstaff instantly out of nothing while standing in a desert, or in the middle of melee.

[DrMotives]

Magical quarterstaves are made from masterwork items. So you still have a base cost of the masterwork component in the crafting in that case.

[Âmesang]

Forget fabricating walls of iron into stuff! Fabricate entire forests into masterwork clubs and quarterstaves! :smallcool: Puts an evil-alignment to good use, no?

[Coidzor]

This is part of why only experienced math professionals are supposed to divide by 0.

[Randomguy]

Actually, 1/(180/0)) ends up being 0. 180/0 is infinity, and 1/infinity is 0. So quarterstaffs take 0 seconds to craft.


180/0 is undefined, not infinity.


Whoops, yeah. Mixed up that with limits. :smallredface:

1/(180/0)) can also be written as 1*(0/180), which goes to 1*0 and then to 0.

What you're doing is as follows, where P is item price and K is some integer.
1. Time Required = 1 week / K
2. R * DC = P * K
3. R * DC / P = K
4. Time required = 1 week * P / (R * DC)

The problem is that between step 2 and 3, you are dividing both sides by P. But can you actually do this? In this case, P = 0, and you can't divide by zero.

The answer is yes, the math is valid. You can prove this using limits, by taking the limit as P goes to 0.

[Inevitability]

GitP: Where advanced mathematics are used for determining whether quarterstaves exist.

[Deophaun]

If you are in a forest of standing trees, I would require you to cut down the right size tree, cut it to the right height, and trim limbs off. The total time needed for cutting it down and cutting it to size would be a few minutes. Trimming it would take maybe ten minutes, which you could do while walking or riding. So it takes no serious time away from your planned day. In that sense, it "takes zero time".
Or, if you're near any village that has any sort of forest, just look for some coppiced trees.

Thank you for the new word, Lindybeige.

[Necroticplague]

What you're doing is as follows, where P is item price and K is some integer.
1. Time Required = 1 week / K
2. R * DC = P * K
3. R * DC / P = K
4. Time required = 1 week * P / (R * DC)

The problem is that between step 2 and 3, you are dividing both sides by P. But can you actually do this? In this case, P = 0, and you can't divide by zero.

The answer is yes, the math is valid. You can prove this using limits, by taking the limit as P goes to 0.

Actually, even without limits, you can get the same results by abusing notation. Any number X can be represented as a fraction of itself over one. Then, dividing it by 180/0 applies the rules for dividing two fractions by each other, a.k.a., multiply by the multiplicative inverse of the latter. So it's basically this valid transformation series:
X/(180/0)=?
(X/1)/(180/0)=?
(X/1)*(0/180)=(X*0)/(180*1)=0/180=0
Interestingly, this means that while Y/0 is indefined, X/(Y/0) is defined as =0 for any X and Y. So the earlier abstraction of Y/0=infinity, while technically inaccurate, works as an assumption for this scenario.

(Also, just to comment on someone upthread, this isn't advanced mathematics. It's 8th grade algebra)

[ace rooster]

Who are you paying the 0gp to? The materials cost nothing, but you must still pay for them to get them. If you are going to assume that the supplies are always available because they cost nothing, you may as well just assume that quarterstaffs are always available too, because they cost nothing either, and you could use three to make a tripod. :smallbiggrin:

Takes a day, because that is the minimum time for a check. Yep, one day... to change a stick from an improvised weapon to a stick. The craft rules are not great. :smallsigh:

I assume division by 0 is coming up because somebody is assuming you can make more that one item with a check. I may be wrong, but as far as I know you cannot do this with most items.

[LastCenturion]

GitP: Where advanced mathematics are used for determining whether quarterstaves exist.

can I sig it


Who are you paying the 0gp to? The materials cost nothing, but you must still pay for them to get them. If you are going to assume that the supplies are always available because they cost nothing, you may as well just assume that quarterstaffs are always available too, because they cost nothing either, and you could use three to make a tripod. :smallbiggrin:

Takes a day, because that is the minimum time for a check. Yep, one day... to change a stick from an improvised weapon to a stick. The craft rules are not great. :smallsigh:

I assume division by 0 is coming up because somebody is assuming you can make more that one item with a check. I may be wrong, but as far as I know you cannot do this with most items.

where are you seeing that it takes a minimum of a day? You need to set aside a day when you roll the check, but you can end up with extra time if you do well.
"If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner." "You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces."

the cost of a quarterstaff is 0 gold pieces, and 0*10 is still zero, so 0 silver pieces, and 0*10 is still zero, so the cost is 0 copper pieces. Interestingly, you can still make a quarterstaff if you botch it. Failing the check means you ruin half of the materials, which implies that you can make a quarterstaff, but only if you fail. Otherwise it takes no quantity of time (reiterating, no quantity =/= zero).

[Ger. Bessa]

Please stop. Those abominations have nothing to do with mathematics. If there is one thing that I have learnt, it's that "You start doing mathematics when you stop dividing by zero". The meaning is of course larger than just the idea of dividing by zero, but here is just the perfect illustration of why it must not be done.

The quote is from Jean Dieudonne, and was my prep school teacher's mantra for a reason.

(Basically, you start doing real maths when you make sure that what you write has meaning, when you stop applying theorems without verifying hypothesis, and writing fractions without making sure your divisor can't be null).

[Inevitability]

can I sig it

yes u can sig

[Deophaun]

Please stop. Those abominations have nothing to do with mathematics. If there is one thing that I have learnt, it's that "You start doing mathematics when you stop dividing by zero". The meaning is of course larger than just the idea of dividing by zero, but here is just the perfect illustration of why it must not be done.
Yeah, my understanding is that once you have divided by zero, you're done. You don't get to fix it later. It doesn't even matter if you accidentally emerge with a correct answer at the end, you screwed up.

[Ger. Bessa]

Yeah, my understanding is that once you have divided by zero, you're done. You don't get to fix it later. It doesn't even matter if you accidentally emerge with a correct answer at the end, you screwed up.

Exactly. Here is a proof :

We all know (I hope) that (a+b)(a-b)=a^2 - b^2
So get that (a-b) on the other side and you get a+b=(a^2-b^2)/(a-b)
Pick a = b = 1 and you have 1+1= (1-1)/(1-1). The fraction can be simplified and you get 2=1. Congrats, you broke the maths.

If 1+1=1, it's over. Everything can be proved right and everything can be proved wrong. At the same time.

So by that calculations, it's true that making a quarterstaff takes 0 rounds. It's also true that it takes a free action. It's also true that it takes a year. And best of all, it's also FALSE (at the same time it's true) for all of this.

So by these calculations, a quarterstaff is an artifact, that qualifies you for every feat BUT iron will, and if punpun, you accidentally.

[Traitoreous]

We all know (I hope) that (a+b)(a-b)=a^2 - b^2
So get that (a-b) on the other side and you get a+b=(a^2-b^2)/(a-b)
Pick a = b = 1 and you have 1+1= (1-1)/(1-1). The fraction can be simplified and you get 2=1. Congrats, you broke the maths.



I don't think you realised that 1-1=0. And you can't divide with 0. Congrats, you miscalculated preschool maths.

[Morcleon]

I don't think you realised that 1-1=0. And you can't divide with 0. Congrats, you miscalculated preschool maths.

I'm pretty sure you don't learn exponents and quadratics in preschool. :smalltongue:

[Tiktakkat]

All of this as opposed to just considering that it is silly that quarterstaves (and clubs; and slings; and pretty much anything else definable, particularly if it is a weapon), costs nothing, and assigning at least a nominal cost of 1 cp to them.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't think you realised that 1-1=0. And you can't divide with 0. Congrats, you miscalculated preschool maths.
That's the point. Ger. Bessa showed an example of why X/0 is set to "undefined" rather than "infinity".

[GnomishPride]

All of this as opposed to just considering that it is silly that quarterstaves (and clubs; and slings; and pretty much anything else definable, particularly if it is a weapon), costs nothing, and assigning at least a nominal cost of 1 cp to them.

That would solve a lot of problems. Especially the ol' free singularity. (Okay, so I have 1 gp left... I'll buy a quarterstaff! But I still have 1 gp. I'll buy another! (Repeat x10000000000000000000000000) Since quarterstaffs actually have weight, and thus mass, they collapse into a singularity and destroy the world. Congrats. :smalltongue:)

[Bucky]

I would argue that the crafting time for a weapon or shield in practice is a minimum of a move action to 'draw' it (given that at some point during the crafting process one must manipulate the requisite material using one's hand)

[Willie the Duck]

All of this as opposed to just considering that it is silly that quarterstaves (and clubs; and slings; and pretty much anything else definable, particularly if it is a weapon), costs nothing, and assigning at least a nominal cost of 1 cp to them.

Or we can just acknowledge that the price listing means that they cost effectively zero because any 1st level adventurer can go into the woods and pull off a tree branch, and sophomoric party ticks like pointing out that the crafting formulas break down when you feed 0 into it is not great insight. Either one works.

[Andreaz]

Whoops, yeah. Mixed up that with limits. :smallredface:

1/(180/0)) can also be written as 1*(0/180), which goes to 1*0 and then to 0.I'm not sure you can actually do that, because a fraction can only be inverted if it exists. 180/0 does not exist.
Really, in our vain sorcery (math), anything /0 is really just a way to say you felt a push against your core, as if millions of voices cried in despair and were suddenly silenced.

[kinem]

So the answer looks like yes, but look closer. The time required to make an item is 1 week over X, where x is the check result times the DC, divided by the cost of the item. Let's say you get a result of 15 on the check. Thus, the requisite time is 1 week over the quantity 180 over 0. 1/(180/0), because the cost of a quarterstaff is zero.

Since any number besides zero, divided by zero is no quantity, the time required to make a quarterstaff is one divided by no quantity. Following this logic, quarterstaves (and clubs, and slings) are impossible to craft. And because they must be crafted to exist, quarterstaves do not exist and never have.

You are not following the rules:


If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.

Nowhere does it tell you to divide the (result x DC) by the price.

Instead its says that (craft result) x (DC) = (some multiple N) x (price in sp), and the crafting time is 1 week / N. Also we know that this can only, and I quote, 'reduce' the time. So we must have N > 1 to trigger that clause.

So if the price is zero, N can be whatever you want, as long as N > 1.

For a very large N, which you can choose to use, that means it will take a very short time to craft the quarterstaff. So crafting it is a free action. The real question is whether it draws an AOO. Since the time is so short, it should not draw an AOO.

I should note however that gathering the raw materials should take a move action, since that's what it takes to pick up a stick from the ground.

[LastCenturion]

Yes, but in order to do that you have to isolate N as a variable. N has to be an integer (I think; I might be misreading the SRD), so taking check result as C, DC as D, and price in silver as P, you get (D*C)/P=N. For a quarterstaff, P equals zero. Therefore, N is not a number. One divided by no quantity is how many weeks it takes to make a quarterstaff, or put another way you can make no quantity of quarterstaves in one week (or day, for that matter). Because no quantity isn't a number, you cannot make any number of quarterstaves in one week. Not even zero. You just can't make quarterstaves. If you try you are removed from space time, or something. I'm a little bit unclear on what happens if you attempt a task with no possible outcomes, including failure.

[kinem]

No, you don't divide by the price. You just find a suitable N. Sometimes dividing by the price can be a way of doing that, but the rules don't say to.

The D&D rules never tell you to divide anything, though they sometimes imply it. That is because the game is supposed to be suitable for kids, who are assumed to be unable to do anything beyond simple addition and multiplication. For the same reason you are never told in the rules to square a number. Instead you are told something like 'The cost is 1000 gp x bonus x bonus' but never '1000 gp x bonus squared'.

[nyjastul69]

GitP: Where advanced mathematics are used for determining whether quarterstaves exist.


Or it's a place where peolple make useless arguments to amuse themselves all the while forgetting the actual rules. It's more like the latter. Rather boring after a while really.

[Hecuba]

Ah. Well then.
Let us begin.

If we are a truly rigorous view of what happens in this case, we must set aside the informal shortcuts we use when talking about arithmetic and calculus and cling to the terms of formal arithmetic and formal calculation.

There are, of course, axioms you can start with where you would be able to divide by zero in formal arithmetic. There are also axioms you where it is perfectly meaningful to say "1 plus 1 equals 3, for sufficiently large values of 1."

I will assume, however, that we are restraining ourselves to real number theory and operating under the Peno Axioms.

Under that model, one does not correctly say that 1/0 is "not a number." One also does not say that it "does not exist." The proper term is that it is undefined.

Moving from there to the function f(x)=1/x, f(0) is undefined which in turn means that f(x) is not well-defined (in this case, the most common way to make it well-defined would be to limit the function to the domain of x where x != 0).

Likewise, the limit of f(x) as goes to 0* is also (properly) not well-defined. Quite pointedly, in formal terms, it does not "equal infinity." This isn't just because (in formal terms) nothing "equals infinity" - if that were the case, we could simply say instead that it "increases without bound" (which is usually what is meant by "equals infinity"). Rather, the issue is that the value is divergent: the limit from the right increases without bound, but the limit from the left decreases without bound. It trends toward 2 different values.


This, of course, leads us to the solution: when the rules are not well-defined, we defer to the DM.


*My apologies for notation - I'm not going to try to figure out how to express standard limit notation on a forum.

[Hecuba]

P.S. - You could always just wish an arbitrary number of quarterstaves into existence. Maybe that's where trees came from...

[nyjastul69]

P.S. - You could always just wish an arbitrary number of quarterstaves into existence. Maybe that's where trees came from...

M'kay, that's legitimately funny.

[rrwoods]

Whoops, yeah. Mixed up that with limits. :smallredface:

1/(180/0)) can also be written as 1*(0/180), which goes to 1*0 and then to 0.
That rewriting doesn't work when there's a zero in the denominator. a/(b/c) = a*c/b doesn't work if c = 0.

[Willie the Duck]

Does it really matter if the formula fails at zero because it becomes undefined, or simply comes out as zero which is a nonsensical result?

[Kyberwulf]

You need at least 4 pounds of wood, that being the weight of the weapon in the books. If you are making the Quarterstaff. You can't just make something from nothing, nonmagically. so just picking up any ole piece of "stick" off the ground wouldn't work. Until it is run though the crafting process, it will still be not considered to be "crafted". As such it will still be considered an improvised weapon. You would still have to make a "Crafting weapon" check. Which will cost pretty much nothing, seeing as you have the raw materials. However it will still take time. As it would still take a week to make the check.

So, you are looking at whatever 4 pounds of wood costs, and looking at a little over 2 days of work.

4 and something days of work, if you want to be technical, since a quarterstaff is double ended weapon. Otherwise you are just making a club.

Also, for anything to be picked up and used as a quarterstaff. It has certain criteria that has to be meet. As you pick up an item and intend to use it as a weapon. You have to run the item against the lists of weapons, to see which it closest resembles. To be a quarterstaff, the Item has to be able to be used two handed. It has to have two ends that can be used as a weapon. and it has to way at least 4 pounds.

[Divide by Zero]

You need at least 4 pounds of wood, that being the weight of the weapon in the books. If you are making the Quarterstaff. You can't just make something from nothing, nonmagically. so just picking up any ole piece of "stick" off the ground wouldn't work. Until it is run though the crafting process, it will still be not considered to be "crafted". As such it will still be considered an improvised weapon. You would still have to make a "Crafting weapon" check. Which will cost pretty much nothing, seeing as you have the raw materials. However it will still take time. As it would still take a week to make the check.

So, you are looking at whatever 4 pounds of wood costs, and looking at a little over 2 days of work.

4 and something days of work, if you want to be technical, since a quarterstaff is double ended weapon. Otherwise you are just making a club.

Also, for anything to be picked up and used as a quarterstaff. It has certain criteria that has to be meet. As you pick up an item and intend to use it as a weapon. You have to run the item against the lists of weapons, to see which it closest resembles. To be a quarterstaff, the Item has to be able to be used two handed. It has to have two ends that can be used as a weapon. and it has to way at least 4 pounds.

You're applying common sense here, which obviously isn't what the thread is about. By RAW, you don't need 4 pounds of wood, you need raw materials equal to one third of the cost of the weapon, which means 0 gp worth of raw materials. Time to craft is also a function of cost, which is also 0. Thus, creating it from nothing in no time. It's ridiculous, of course, but no more so than drown healing or monks not being proficient in Unarmed Strike.

[Kyberwulf]

Okay, then you can't craft any of those weapons at all then. By RAW. Since they HAVE no price, you to basically just find them. Otherwise, you could just Craft Silver. Or Craft gold out of thin air. They just.. Are.

[Kyberwulf]

With that being said, The funny thing is. Going up to a Weapon Smith and saying .. I want you to craft me a Quarterstaff.. He would look at you funny and say... I can't craft that for you.

How about a Masterwork Quarterstaff, you say to the smith.... Why sure I can do that. BOOM He can make you a Masterwork Quarterstaff.

Oh, and be careful about breaking that quarterstaff... Cause it can't be repaired. Since you need to go of the base price for that too >.>

[kinem]

When you break a quarterstaff in two, you end up with two half-staves.

[Kyberwulf]

Wouldn't they be 2 1/8 staves then?

[Gallowglass]

When you break a quarterstaff in two, you end up with two half-staves.

wouldn't they be eighthstaves?

ninjaed for the obvious joke.

[Kyberwulf]

That is really boggling my mind.

Apparently, you don't need anything to create anything.

Want a ring, with a Diamond worth 10,000 gold. BAM. Just say you are going to craft it. Pay for the price of "Raw Materials" and BOOM, you can make the ring. for way cheaper...even if you don't have the diamond, and you are nowhere NEAR a place to get Diamonds.

Also, does that mean you can Create a Donkey. If you take Craft (animals) Since they have a base price. You can just pay for the cost of "raw materials" (ew on both.. RAW...and ick Materials). Then BOOM... craft a donkey. To bad you can craft a Masterwork Donkey..for a Magical Donkey. :o
CRAFT HIPPOGRIFF EGG! Since the base price is what? 2,000 gold.

Forget Creating magical Items. Craft(Magical Item) is where it is at. Just figure out what item you want.. BAM..

[Gildedragon]

That is really boggling my mind.

Apparently, you don't need anything to create anything.

Want a ring, with a Diamond worth 10,000 gold. BAM. Just say you are going to craft it. Pay for the price of "Raw Materials" and BOOM, you can make the ring. for way cheaper...even if you don't have the diamond, and you are nowhere NEAR a place to get Diamonds.

Also, does that mean you can Create a Donkey. If you take Craft (animals) Since they have a base price. You can just pay for the cost of "raw materials" (ew on both.. RAW...and ick Materials). Then BOOM... craft a donkey. To bad you can craft a Masterwork Donkey..for a Magical Donkey. :o
CRAFT HIPPOGRIFF EGG! Since the base price is what? 2,000 gold.

Creatures are not objects and have no listed DC (which one needs to beat to successfully craft the object)

As for the diamond: alas you need to pay for the raw materials, which means one must find the materials to pay for them. but if the cost is 0, then no materials are just as good.

[Kyberwulf]

The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. It doesn't say the "Item" has to be an inanimate object. Just the item has to be of the appropriate type. Which a Donkey would be an Animal. You couldn't make a Donkey a Piece of wood. RAW wise. The thing you are trying to make becomes the ITEM in the equation.

I am willing to bet making a Donkey would qualify as Complex.

[LastCenturion]

Apparently, you don't need anything to create anything.

How have you reached this conclusion?

[Kyberwulf]

Using RAW, to be silly

[GreyBlack]

GitP: Where advanced mathematics are used for determining whether quarterstaves exist.

You are so quoted, my good sir.

[Jormengand]

The basic function of the Craft skill, however, is to allow you to make an item of the appropriate type. It doesn't say the "Item" has to be an inanimate object. Just the item has to be of the appropriate type. Which a Donkey would be an Animal. You couldn't make a Donkey a Piece of wood. RAW wise. The thing you are trying to make becomes the ITEM in the equation.

I am willing to bet making a Donkey would qualify as Complex.

Incidentally, creating a donkey requires 2GP 6SP 6CP, requires a craft (varies) check at DC 20, and requires no more than a fifteenth of a week (11 hours 12 minutes) if the check is passed. Higher craft check results may allow you to make the donkey faster.

:smalltongue:

[Necromancy]

*casts thread necromancy*

Seriously though you can't divide by zero, in theory or the real world.

For example, ohms law. Try to divide by zero in this equation and you start a fire... Quite literally

[GreyBlack]

*casts thread necromancy*

Seriously though you can't divide by zero, in theory or the real world.

For example, ohms law. Try to divide by zero in this equation and you start a fire... Quite literally

Well, you can divide by zero. It's just that things get very.... funky very quickly.

[Eisfalken]

Forget fabricating walls of iron into stuff! Fabricate entire forests into masterwork clubs and quarterstaves! :smallcool: Puts an evil-alignment to good use, no?

Actually... doesn't have to be "evil". You can plant small "gardens" of trees and have plant growth increase growth by one-third for the year. Quick search says most oaks grow between... 1 to 2 feet a year. So in 3 years you'd have anywhere from 4 to 8 foot tall trees ready for harvesting. You don't have to touch a single wild tree; they can just grow and grow as much as those hippie druids want.

The main issue is... what exactly constitutes the "raw material" for a masterwork staff? We need a price estimate on cubic footage of oak wood in D&D before we know how much "free money" you can harvest this way.

Having said that? Very prudent use of the spell, and it shouldn't be terribly difficult to pull off the Craft check. Do three gardens this way, harvest/plant one every year, and you've got yourself a basis for annual salary.

All for one spell, maybe the Craft (weaponsmithing) skill, and a little patch of ground.

[Inevitability]

Well, you can divide by zero. It's just that things get very.... funky very quickly.

If by funky you mean 'not one mathematical law even works logically anymore' then yes, things get funky.

[Necroticplague]

*casts thread necromancy*

Seriously though you can't divide by zero, in theory or the real world.

For example, ohms law. Try to divide by zero in this equation and you start a fire... Quite literally

If you need to be dividing by zero in ohm's law, you're doing something wrong in your circuit analysis. Any wire should have 0 voltage, as well as 0 resistance. Current should be determined through kcl/mesh analysis, not ohm's law.

[Knaight]

All of this as opposed to just considering that it is silly that quarterstaves (and clubs; and slings; and pretty much anything else definable, particularly if it is a weapon), costs nothing, and assigning at least a nominal cost of 1 cp to them.
You could easily have them cost significantly more than that.


Or we can just acknowledge that the price listing means that they cost effectively zero because any 1st level adventurer can go into the woods and pull off a tree branch, and sophomoric party ticks like pointing out that the crafting formulas break down when you feed 0 into it is not great insight. Either one works.
A tree branch is less a proper club than a textbook example of where to use the improvised weapon rules, and that's before we get into quarterstaffs and slings. The typical quarterstaff was made from the trunk of a larger tree, using a section away from the direct center - there's a lot of work that goes into that. As for a sling, there's basically no way around using either at least some twine (rope or string, depending on design) and/or some worked leather, and just getting to that point from miscellaneous plant matter, wool, or a dead animal takes a significant amount of work. I made a woven sling just two days ago, and even starting with pretty high quality jute twine and the experience from the dozens of slings I'd already made, it still took about two hours. If I had to make the twine as well, that number would go up significantly.

Yes, the rules break down a bit when you don't think about where to apply them, and it's pretty obvious that any campaign that even tries to be serious won't allow instantaneous club/staff/sling creation. That doesn't mean that the price being 0 is indicative of anything other than the lack of knowledge over at WotC about club, staff, and sling construction.

[Necromancy]

If you need to be dividing by zero in ohm's law, you're doing something wrong in your circuit analysis. Any wire should have 0 voltage, as well as 0 resistance. Current should be determined through kcl/mesh analysis, not ohm's law.

So you're an electrical engineer?

And you don't know what happens when you complete a circuit with a resistance/load of zero?

Go take some jumper cables and hook your car battery positive directly to the ground post and let us know what you find.

[Jack_Simth]

So you're an electrical engineer?

And you don't know what happens when you complete a circuit with a resistance/load of zero?

Go take some jumper cables and hook your car battery positive directly to the ground post and let us know what you find.That's not a 0 ohms situation. That's just really really low, like 0.01 ohms or some such.

[Necroticplague]

So you're an electrical engineer?

And you don't know what happens when you complete a circuit with a resistance/load of zero?

Go take some jumper cables and hook your car battery positive directly to the ground post and let us know what you find.

Computer, not electrical. Good guess, though.

If a wire was actually 0 ohms, it wouldn't cause a fire, because 0 ohms means it looses none if the voltage as heat when current flows through it. It would simply instantly drain the battery (as a result of the time constant being 0).

[Necromancy]

Computer, not electrical. Good guess, though.

If a wire was actually 0 ohms, it wouldn't cause a fire, because 0 ohms means it looses none if the voltage as heat when current flows through it. It would simply instantly drain the battery (as a result of the time constant being 0).

Yeah I don't work on battery powered gear, I mostly see three phase 208/240/460

I've seen copper wire hit 4000 degrees in under a second.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah I don't work on battery powered gear, I mostly see three phase 208/240/460

I've seen copper wire hit 4000 degrees in under a second.

Yes... but a copper wire of a given diameter has a resistance of R = (1.7 x 10-8 Ω m) (10 m) / ((1.04 mm2)(10-6 m2/mm2)) (at about room temperature). That copper wire you nearly boiled did not have a resistance of 0.

[Tiktakkat]

You could easily have them cost significantly more than that.

Given that I've paid $10-40 for a bo - I know. :smallbiggrin:

I just threw the 1 cp number out there to have a number and be done with it.


. . . a bunch of quite accurate and relevant facts . . .

That doesn't mean that the price being 0 is indicative of anything other than the lack of knowledge over at WotC about club, staff, and sling construction.

Pretty much.
I can vaguely understand the desire to have "free" weapons anyone can just pick up, but it really doesn't work like that.

[GnomishPride]

"Well since a quarterstaff is just a stick, seems that it should just be free. Like how, y'know, a sword is just metal. Or arrows are just twigs. Heck, armor is just sheets of metal. Totally free. Yup." -hypothetical WotC designer

[trysted]

Yeah I don't work on battery powered gear, I mostly see three phase 208/240/460

I've seen copper wire hit 4000 degrees in under a second.

Yeah, but that copper wire didn't have a zero ohm resistance either. Just very very low. Watts (heat) is current squared times resistance. No resistance, no heat. Very low resistance, extremely high current, extremely high current squared is a crap ton of heat. This is why NFPA 70E exists.

[LastCenturion]

This is a thread about quarterstaves, clubs, and slings. I almost understand how it got the point of people arguing about the resistance of copper wires, but... no. Not really.

[Necromancy]

This is a thread about quarterstaves, clubs, and slings. I almost understand how it got the point of people arguing about the resistance of copper wires, but... no. Not really.

Because someone divided by zero

Obviously

[Divide by Zero]

Because someone divided by zero

Obviously

My bad, sorry guys.

[Inevitability]

My bad, sorry guys.

You must be thoroughly enjoying this thread.