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talse
2007-06-23, 07:01 PM
I'm a bit confused concerning my happy go lucky environmental science druid, I think he's very versatile and a competent strategist, everybody else in my party thinks druids suck and bards are better for doing diverse things. I know wild shapes pretty nice, but i will admit the druid is a bit lacking in directly offensive spells.

What other shortcomings does the druid have?

What strengths balance this out?

Are there any neat additions to druids that have cropped up like the rouges skill tricks in the complete scoundrel?

de-trick
2007-06-23, 07:14 PM
short comings

weapons sucks

armor only nonmetal

and to get a decent armor not made of metal is hard and rare

only Begin to shine at 5th level or when ever they get wild shape

Efstrofos
2007-06-23, 07:15 PM
Druids have almost no short comings. You can play healer, summoner, blaster (don't do this), tank, grappler, and charger...all at the same! Not to mention your big mean pet who can be replaced almost daily if you need. You even get a good skill set and some of the best spells in the game. Wild shape gives you tons of versatility. Need to fly? Turn into a bat. Need hide? Turn into a squirrel (or any other tiny animal). The list goes on and on. Your groups is very mislead.

Starsinger
2007-06-23, 07:17 PM
short comings

weapons sucks

armor only nonmetal

and to get a decent armor not made of metal is hard and rare

only Begin to shine at 5th level or when ever they get wild shape

De-trick, you seem to have forgotten something... full. caster.

Not to mention, weapons are largely useless for druids beyond level 5, so from levels 1-4 they can "suffer" through the druid weapon list.

As for armor, Hide is fine until level 5. Plus, IronWood can make full-plate, if you so desire.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-23, 07:19 PM
I'm with Efestros. There is a reason that words like CoDzilla and phrases like 'the power three'(druid/cleric/wizard) exist. 3/4 BAB? AND full spellcasting? You don't even need to pick out good feats to make that effective. Not to mention that druids have Other Stuff (an almost full special abilities table).

Saph
2007-06-23, 07:24 PM
Strengths:

Full caster. Great spell list. Good skill list. Best summoner in the game. Turn into a giant bear and be better at fighting than a fighter. Have an animal companion that's also better at fighting than a fighter. Huge versatility. Scouting ability through Wild Shape. Great mobility through Wild Shape.

Weaknesses:

Uh . . .

Well, they 'only' get four skill points. Which is still twice what wizards, clerics, and sorcerers get. And their AC is usually not all that great.

And you have to be partially neutral and 'revere nature'. Like that's difficult.

And . . . uh, that's about it. Can anyone think of anything else? I've run out.

- Saph

(Druids are arguably the most powerful class in the game, at least up to level 10. Bards are one of the weakest. Comparing them is a bit of a joke.)

GryffonDurime
2007-06-23, 07:25 PM
Even from a very shallow point of view, Druids are just fun to play--a new or improved class ability almost every level? Some class features that are, as the Order of the Stick pointed out, stronger than entire classes? Full spellcasting from a very diverse list? Most gishes have multiple ability dependancy. As of level five, and natural spell, Druids need only Wisdom. Ever.

talse
2007-06-23, 07:30 PM
I can see the spell list as useful for jack of trades sort of thing, like reshaping a clearing into a hobbit hole, or weakening the wall of a castle, but isn't it a bit short in combat casting stuff? My party has been very thin on fights thus far and my contributions were buff the dex dependant fighter with cats grace, cast cure light wounds and summon 5 wolves.

Saph
2007-06-23, 07:35 PM
The druid's spells work fine in combat. Produce Flame does decent damage at low levels, and so does Flaming Sphere. Using direct damage spells for a druid is a waste, though. You're better off converting them into Summon Nature's Ally spells and swamping the enemy with animal allies. Once you hit 4th-level your animals should easily last long enough to turn a fight.

Or cast Bull's Strength and Barkskin on yourself and your animal companion (using your Share Spells class feature), Wild Shape into something big and nasty, and move up and shred things yourself. Either works.

- Saph

Raum
2007-06-23, 07:38 PM
Druids are generally considered one of the top classes when it comes to personal power. What you need to ask though is "What are your strengths?" You're a full caster and you can change shape. You also have an animal companion.

Use your strengths...figure out which forms work best for you and use them. Use your spells to enhance your abilities. Use your animal companion in combat, and get a companion who can trip.

Efstrofos
2007-06-23, 07:40 PM
When you say combat spells, do you mean damage spells? If so, damage spells are really one of the worst choices for combat. For low level combat effectiveness try:

Entangle: Enemies who fail the save are take lots of minuses, and even if they pass they move at half speed. Good way to really weaken you opponents.

Still you're right, early on druids do lack a lot of combat spells, but like Saph said just buff (yourself, animal companion, or allies) or summon early on.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-23, 07:46 PM
Can anyone think of anything else? I've run out.

Ooh, ooh, I know..... if they don't take Natural Spell they can't cast spells while using Wildshape!:smallbiggrin:

Saph
2007-06-23, 07:48 PM
Ooh, ooh, I know..... if they don't take Natural Spell they can't cast spells while using Wildshape!:smallbiggrin:

Right! A big problem for all of those druids that don't take Natural Spell. Not that I've ever seen one. But I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

- Saph

Gavin Sage
2007-06-23, 07:52 PM
Right! A big problem for all of those druids that don't take Natural Spell. Not that I've ever seen one. But I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

- Saph

Hey I've played with a girl who made a Ranger with 10 Str and 18 Cha, its possible.

(Or more substanially a DM might ban the feat, or force the PHB II variant)

greenknight
2007-06-23, 07:54 PM
For all those who don't appreciate the power of a Druid, I present the Druid's Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10552967#post10552967). At lower levels, you do need to rely on your animal companion, but at higher levels, you are one of the most powerful characters in the game. Make sure your DM allows Spell Compendium for even more power.

PaladinBoy
2007-06-23, 07:57 PM
One of the druid's strengths that our party has found useful is a rather low profile. After all, generally your enemies won't walk through the forest killing every bird they see. For almost every environment, even urban ones, there are animals that will be common enough for these purposes, like spying.


One of the only weaknesses I can think of, and one where they would in fact fall short of a bard, is in social interaction. It's possible, as Diplomacy is on the druid's skill list, but Charisma doesn't seem like a commonly boosted ability score for a druid, there are other, more useful skills to be taking ranks in, and it's difficult (but not impossible) to justify it from a RPing standpoint. That, and most people don't react well to wild animals (at least, in their eyes) following people around.

Starsinger
2007-06-23, 08:00 PM
Right! A big problem for all of those druids that don't take Natural Spell. Not that I've ever seen one. But I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

- Saph

I usually ignore wildshape when I druid, I dislike it. :smalltongue:

Alleine
2007-06-23, 08:09 PM
Well, in some past dungeons members of my group made, the druid was better at killing than most of us.

Example(at lvl 18): "I wild shape into a -insert name of Huge dinosaur-" now he is stronger than all of us, casts bite of the werebear on himself (and thus, his companion). Now he runs over all of the creatures, and partially through a stone wall. This is usually followed by some spell which he'll hop from one of us and into the rest of the monsters. We get to wipe up pulverized goo for exp.

If that doesn't demonstrate effective offensive capabilities, I don't know what does.

Also, a spell doesn't have to deal damage for it to be dangerous.

talse
2007-06-23, 08:39 PM
Is a druid with leadership mildly retarded?

Efstrofos
2007-06-23, 09:36 PM
Leadership is never retarded really. Its pretty widely accepted as one of the more abusable feats. Just choose a good cohort and you're set. Good choices are a heal-bot (cleric), item crafter(artificer, wizard), buffer (bard, wizard, whoever has whatever buff you need).

That said a druid isn't a particularly strong choice. Charisma probably isn't very high (or at least it shouldn't be), and you'll get a -2 to your score for having an animal companion.

Jack_Simth
2007-06-23, 10:33 PM
Right! A big problem for all of those druids that don't take Natural Spell. Not that I've ever seen one. But I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

- SaphI am currently playing a Gestalt Druid//Wizard-6; took Craft Wondrous Item at 6th level. Deliberately.

Stephen_E
2007-06-23, 11:09 PM
For low levels don't forget the 2nd lev spell Flame Blade.
Just recently I got to watch my GM's face drop after he threw a couple of undead against us with DR10/Silver, with us only having a single Silver dagger, and My Druid preceded to cast Flame Blade and make touch attacks with a flaming Scimitar doing 1d8+2 and ignoring DR.

I do wonder about weapon complaints. They get the Scimitar! 1D8, crit 18-20/x2. What's the problem with it?
As for Armour. Sure, their selection is limited, but Hide Armour and a Large Wooden Shield works fine levels 1-4. After that you can Wild Shape.

Hell, I can't remember when I last had a Druid bother to use Wildshape and my Druids have never been the weak link of the party. I ignore their 2nd strongest class feature and I'm still one of the powerhouses of the party!

Stephen

DSCrankshaw
2007-06-23, 11:45 PM
(Or more substanially a DM might ban the feat [natural spell], or force the PHB II variant)

Well, I've been considering playing a druid, but with the PHB2 alternate class features. And yes, I do realize that a druid without natural spell and an animal companion is probably going to be weaker, despite the ability to shapeshift at will. That's actually the point. I'm not playing with a bunch of powergamers, and I'd like to try something that's cool without overshadowing the other PCs.

So, with that in mind, what do people think of the alternate class features?

de-trick
2007-06-23, 11:54 PM
well can become spread out thinly with 3 major abilities wildshape, animal companion, and spell casting

Jack Mann
2007-06-24, 12:06 AM
Well, I've been considering playing a druid, but with the PHB2 alternate class features. And yes, I do realize that a druid without natural spell and an animal companion is probably going to be weaker, despite the ability to shapeshift at will. That's actually the point. I'm not playing with a bunch of powergamers, and I'd like to try something that's cool without overshadowing the other PCs.

So, with that in mind, what do people think of the alternate class features?

It's good. You're still reasonably effective, but you're no longer the be-all, end-all of combat. All druids use this variant in my games.


well can become spread out thinly with 3 major abilities wildshape, animal companion, and spell casting

...None of which interfere with each other. Seriously, how does having three powerful abilities, any one of which could be the basis for a class, is a weakness? It's not like being good at spellcasting makes you any worse at wildshaping, or wildshaping makes your animal companion weaker. Where's your reasoning on this, de-trick?

Inyssius Tor
2007-06-24, 12:12 AM
So you're saying that a weakness of the druid is that it does everything well at the same time?

You don't even have to do anything to get these major abilities. Wildshape is an awesome ability even without Natural Spell (and that's all that will really improve it); the same goes for Animal Companion (sure, you can spend ranks in Handle Animal if you really want)...

Turcano
2007-06-24, 01:02 AM
well can become spread out thinly with 3 major abilities wildshape, animal companion, and spell casting

What spreading out? The druid is a powerhouse straight out of the box: "Instant CoDzilla -- Just Add Natural Spell!" Adding feats to bolster that is just gravy. And feats like Initiate of Nature and Rashemi Elemental Summoning are rich gravy indeed.

DSCrankshaw
2007-06-24, 01:56 AM
It's good. You're still reasonably effective, but you're no longer the be-all, end-all of combat. All druids use this variant in my games.
That's good to hear. I really liked the look of the Shapeshift option when I first read about it. I suspect it may end up being the standard in the next version of D&D.

Leon
2007-06-24, 02:24 AM
Ooh, ooh, I know..... if they don't take Natural Spell they can't cast spells while using Wildshape!:smallbiggrin:

Natural Spell, who needs natural spell. even if i was playing a standard druid i'd not take the feat


Right! A big problem for all of those druids that don't take Natural Spell. Not that I've ever seen one. But I'm sure they exist. Somewhere.

- Saph

We exist - to the extreme of what im playing, no Wildshape, no Companion, no Spont Summon Ally


I usually ignore wildshape when I druid, I dislike it. :smalltongue:

Same here

Fizban
2007-06-24, 02:25 AM
I do wonder about weapon complaints. They get the Scimitar! 1D8, crit 18-20/x2. What's the problem with it?

What scimitar are you using? (Hint: the correct answer was 1d6 18-20)

And yes, flameblade is awesome. I've never gotten to use it, but it is still awesome. As is decastave, moonblade, and even the tiny flame dagger. Flame whips gives you two attacks with extended reach as well. I <3 weapon spells.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-24, 03:01 AM
@Leon
I agree. Full spellcasting and 3/4 BAB is more than enough to make a powerful spellcaster, but that doesn't change the fact that Natural Spell and Wildshape are the two things that puts druids over the top.

After all, who needs class features? We've got spells!


We exist - to the extreme of what im playing, no Wildshape, no Companion, no Spont Summon Ally

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-24, 03:57 AM
Druids seem to be considered one of the most unbalanced classes. Play for awhile, and you can likely come up with some pretty brokenly good stuff.

The Druid as a stereotype can be pretty dull (all of them are, but I guess when everything is a stereotype, some are more interesting than others), it can take a bit of work I think, but the Druid can drawn out to some interesting characters.

A lot of fantasy has nature as this light and fluffy thing where everything is wonderful. But that's not how it is in the real world. It can be bleak, harsh, cruel, and uncaring (well... this could spark a theological debate but let's leave that alone).

Also, while a Shaman class was made, Druids and Shamans are so close in theme that I'm not convinced two distinct classes are needed.


But come on let's face it, turning into bears and the likes is pretty cool :P

Gavin Sage
2007-06-24, 08:21 AM
We exist - to the extreme of what im playing, no Wildshape, no Companion, no Spont Summon Ally

So you're maybe slightly less powerful then the Cleric of the group but still pretty powerful. Or is there no Cleric so you have to devote a healthy chunk of your casting /day to heal-botting?

talse
2007-06-24, 08:43 AM
Well i actually had an idea that once i got more familiar i'd make a druid that cultivated their spells as their power stemmed from plants and other flora they'd raised. but it's not nearly ready for implementation.

nerulean
2007-06-24, 08:55 AM
That would work. The druid gets all the most interesting plant-manip spells.

Honestly, though, there is nothing underpowered about the druid. In our 12th level campaign, the group had a paladin and a finesse fighter and the wildshaped druid was still the best melée combatant of the whole shebang, especially when combined with the animal companion. Add the fact that you can cast spells to buff and heal yourself or manipulate the battleground to pretty much whatever conditions you like and there's no way at all a typical druid should be lacking in a fight.

Even when not wildshaped and with poor armour, you only need to chuck a couple of buffs on to be able to stand at the front of the party with the big hitters.

Celsius
2007-06-24, 10:09 AM
"Under Appreciated Druids"?!?!?!

Druids have got to be THE most overpowered base class there is. (Exception: Artificer) The following are just some of the reasons why:

1) Wild Shape grants unparalleled versatility in sneaking, spying, combat, movement .etc
2) Druid Spells rock. It gets to spontaneously cast SNA, arguably one of the best damage-to-spell slot spells in the game, barring Venomfire, which incidentally is also a druid spell.
3) You get to select feats for you Animal Companion. How broken is that? Just slap on the Power Attack and cast Animal Growth. Instant death for the next hapless enemy your little pet tiger charges
4) Insane AC: With Wild Shape and the ability to wear armor (Use the wild enhancement), your AC is sure to skyrocket. Not to mention the fact that Druids are divine casters, so they can still cast spells with chances of failure in armor...

Oh, and btw, Bards are NOT underpowered when optimized properly. In fact, Druid/Bard are among the best class synergies I've seen around...

talse
2007-06-24, 10:15 AM
so the fact that we have myself, a tactically minded druid, an artificer who at level 4 has convinced our DM to make a self drawn wagon with an array of heavy crossbows on it, and this weird fire demon guy who wields chains like a mofo and dex through the roof means we're a smidge over powered? even if our fourth member is a rouge driven by the sole motivation of "stabby"

Flakey
2007-06-24, 10:49 AM
It seems that your party equates magic with blowing things up in big explosions. This is not what a druid does best, but still can do it. Others have shown about the other abilities, and another at higher levels 10 + is, that they can turn into party buffers quite effectively as well (going by 3 and not 3.5 here). Infact I tend to prefer a druid to a mage often in parties.

talse
2007-06-24, 11:08 AM
I want to be tactically minded but so far our battles have been in city environments where if i change the field of battle i end up with a huge bill to sharns urban renewal department.

Tallis
2007-06-24, 12:04 PM
) Insane AC: With Wild Shape and the ability to wear armor (Use the wild enhancement), your AC is sure to skyrocket. Not to mention the fact that Druids are divine casters, so they can still cast spells with nochances of failure in armor...

fixed

Druids have 2 main weaknesses:
1) Everyone knows they're tough so they will probably just run away, thus depriving you of xp.
2) If they don't run away, they may concentrate on taking you down first

Their main strength is:
It doesn't matter they're going to win anyway

Arbitrarity
2007-06-24, 12:12 PM
Responses:

1: You defeated them, even if they ran away, so you overcame the challenge, i.e. gain XP.

2: The druid takes them down. :P. That's the point. :smallcool:

Leon
2007-06-24, 12:32 PM
So you're maybe slightly less powerful then the Cleric of the group but still pretty powerful. Or is there no Cleric so you have to devote a healthy chunk of your casting /day to heal-botting?

We do have a Cleric - Devoted to Healing and not much else.
ive only cast Cure Minor wounds (on myself)



Forgot to add that i do have things to replace those removed class features but all are less than what the "Generic" druid has

Rage 1/day (per 4 lvls) [Flaws: Slow to Anger & Blind rage]
Fast Movement
Wis Mod to AC
Monk AC Bonus
Monk Speed Bonus
Fav Enemy Progression
Track

druid91
2007-08-20, 11:57 AM
everyone here is forgetting one very special druid feat.

dragon wildshape.

by the time you get it you don't have to change back to your normal form.
and a white dragon has every type of movement speed there is.
not to mention the fact that you get both supernatural and extraordinary abilities.

and is that even a druid any more?


We do have a Cleric - Devoted to Healing and not much else.
ive only cast Cure Minor wounds (on myself)



Forgot to add that i do have things to replace those removed class features but all are less than what the "Generic" druid has

Rage 1/day (per 4 lvls) [Flaws: Slow to Anger & Blind rage]
Fast Movement
Wis Mod to AC
Monk AC Bonus
Monk Speed Bonus
Fav Enemy Progression
Track

tainsouvra
2007-08-20, 12:48 PM
my party thinks druids suck and bards are better for doing diverse things I think my eyes bled a little, that combination of words manages to transcend normal vision and actually inflict physical harm. :smallwink:
For all those who don't appreciate the power of a Druid, I present the Druid's Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10552967#post10552967). That's a great link, and I think it has all the points that I wanted to make. Nifty.

The short version...imagine being a huge raging monster with a swarm of powerful allies and firing bolts of lightning out of one hand while you heal with the other. That's probably a decent enough mental image to build your Druid around, although personally I often replace the lightning with some buff/debuff effects.

Aquillion
2007-08-20, 03:31 PM
only Begin to shine at 5th level or when ever they get wild shapeUntrue. While they certainly gain a lot at level 5, you're forgetting that druids get their animal companion at level 1. That puts them ahead of any other primary or secondary spellcasting class in the first few levels, and with a bit of intelligence and some buffing, the druid + animal companion can easily exceed the damage output of a fighter. On top of this, animal companions have the advantage of being fairly expendable and swappable... a druid can get a new one in 24 hours, nice if you're changing location or have a long-term plan that requires some specific animal.

Jack_Simth
2007-08-20, 04:28 PM
Untrue. While they certainly gain a lot at level 5, you're forgetting that druids get their animal companion at level 1. That puts them ahead of any other primary or secondary spellcasting class in the first few levels, and with a bit of intelligence and some buffing, the druid + animal companion can easily exceed the damage output of a fighter. On top of this, animal companions have the advantage of being fairly expendable and swappable... a druid can get a new one in 24 hours, nice if you're changing location or have a long-term plan that requires some specific animal.
Part of that is simply because most DM's don't enforce Handle Animal very much.

Sure, you get a +4 bonus for your Companion, and with the 4 ranks you can have at first, you'll easily get a +8 modifier with a Charisma score of 10.... but that's not enough to take 10 training an Animal Companion on, oh, Attack (DC 20), say. You get bonus tricks that can cover that... but you only start with one. And you still need to make the DC (10) to get them to do something they're trained on under pressure.

Now, after about level 5, this quickly stops mattering (with a Charisma of 8 (-1 penalty), max ranks in Handle Animal (+8), and the +4 bonus from handling your Animal Companion, you've got a +11 modifier... which will still make a trained trick work when the companion is injured (-2) on a roll of 1; and you can take 10 for training to make the highest Core training DC of 20).

When you replace your animal companion, though, you're starting from scratch on the training. Attack, Attack Upgrade, Down (get your AC to follow you on a retreat), and Heel takes four weeks to train... and if you're getting the best animal companion you can muster, you're usually only saving a single week of training through the Druid Bonus Trick. Meanwhile, Pushing an animal companion costs you a move action (rather than the free action for a trained trick) and a DC 25 Handle Animal check (which isn't a given without heavy investment in it until around 16th or 17th).

kpenguin
2007-08-20, 04:45 PM
(Druids are arguably the most powerful class in the game, at least up to level 10. Bards are one of the weakest. Comparing them is a bit of a joke.)

Wait up. Bards are one of the weakest classes in the game? I mean, they're not one of the Ultimate Trinity of Cheese, but they still have one ace up their sleeve: Diplomacy.

I mean, a bard who specializes in diplomacy can nullify a huge range of threats. The DC to turn someone from hostile to just unfriendly is 20. With all the synergies that go into diplomacy (and there are a lot) and a bard's natural charisma, he can make that no sweat. A human bard with 16 charisma and 5 ranks in diplomacy, bluff, knowledge (nobility and royalty), and sense motive will have a diplomacy modifier of +14. This can be achieved at 2nd level!

If you really want to break diplomacy, let's try out a level 5 bard, since that's when a druid comes into its own. Let's make this fella half-elf, with Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Negotiator as feats, diplomacy maxed out, the appropriate synergy skills at least 5 ranks, and 16 charisma. With everything added up, that's a +24 modifier! You can just take a full round action to change that BBEG from trying to kill you to just tossing around insults, no save!

As you gain more ranks in diplomacy and tack on modifiers to your charisma, it becomes more and more absurd. The bard isn't weak by any means.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-08-20, 05:50 PM
What scimitar are you using? (Hint: the correct answer was 1d6 18-20)

And yes, flameblade is awesome. I've never gotten to use it, but it is still awesome. As is decastave, moonblade, and even the tiny flame dagger. Flame whips gives you two attacks with extended reach as well. I <3 weapon spells.

Ultimately their isn't a lot of difference between using different weapons.

Take Bastard Sword vs. Longsword; BS is strictly better, but for almost every combat class damage comes from Str and Enhancement bonuses, spell boosts, and Power Attacking; at which point most of your damage is a set bonus on your roll contributes relatively little.


An attack is an attack, a good crit range/bonus and the size (Light/1h/2h) is what it mostly comes down to. (Except in special cases like the spiked chain.)

Saph
2007-08-20, 06:10 PM
Wait up. Bards are one of the weakest classes in the game? I mean, they're not one of the Ultimate Trinity of Cheese, but they still have one ace up their sleeve: Diplomacy.

. . .

As you gain more ranks in diplomacy and tack on modifiers to your charisma, it becomes more and more absurd. The bard isn't weak by any means.

This really isn't a good argument. Firstly, virtually no DM will let you beat every encounter with diplomacy. The diplomacy rules are completely abuseable, and every DM with the tiniest bit of experience knows this. Second, you will bore the rest of your party to sleep. The other players came to the game to do something exciting, not watch from the sidelines as Captain Talky spends the entire session making friends with NPCs and monsters.

Diplomancy is one of those "Theoretical Optimisation" tricks, like Pun-Pun, which is great fun to work out and almost completely useless in practice. And honestly, if everyone in the group's using that level of cheese, a diplomancer bard is still going to be completely overshadowed.

Bards aren't the weakest of the core classes (that honour goes to the monk) but they're definitely one of the weaker ones. Having Diplomacy as a class skill doesn't change this.

- Saph

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-20, 06:18 PM
An interesting limitation of SNA was brought to my attention recently. All animals are neutral, not so? This means that any of the protection from X spells will prevent them from touching you with natural weapons. And they have nothing but natural weapons, and don't get SR with which to try to beat the protection...

So I point and laugh at your polar bear from behind my Magic Circle Against Evil.

Then I realize that I'm pointing at the wildshaped druid or animal companion instead of a natures ally, and get my face eaten off.

kpenguin
2007-08-20, 06:23 PM
This really isn't a good argument. Firstly, virtually no DM will let you beat every encounter with diplomacy. The diplomacy rules are completely abuseable, and every DM with the tiniest bit of experience knows this.

And these same DMs will let your druid go CoDzilla on the monsters?


Second, you will bore the rest of your party to sleep. The other players came to the game to do something exciting, not watch from the sidelines as Captain Talky spends the entire session making friends with NPCs and monsters.

As opposed to watching the wizard pull another time-stop/celerity combo?


Diplomancy is one of those "Theoretical Optimisation" tricks, like Pun-Pun, which is great fun to work out and almost completely useless in practice. And honestly, if everyone in the group's using that level of cheese, a diplomancer bard is still going to be completely overshadowed.

Completely overshadowed? I fail to see how. Sure the bard won't kill anybody, but he effectively has a Charm Monster at will, no save, at higher levels. He might be hedged out by the Mighty Trio of Doom, but not completely overshadowed like other classes are.



Bards aren't the weakest of the core classes (that honour goes to the monk) but they're definitely one of the weaker ones. Having Diplomacy as a class skill doesn't change this.


It's not just diplomacy. All of the bard's ability's, from class skills to spell list, is uniquely geared for social adventures. The fact that the Bard could negotiate circles around the other core classes and still remain fairly useful in combat makes it one of the moderately good classes.

Leon
2007-08-20, 06:27 PM
What scimitar are you using? (Hint: the correct answer was 1d6 18-20)


Possibly the Great Scimatar from Sandstorm



and is that even a druid any more?

Yes, yes it is

Saph
2007-08-20, 06:35 PM
And these same DMs will let your druid go CoDzilla on the monsters?

Yup, generally.


As opposed to watching the wizard pull another time-stop/celerity combo?

Do you usually play at 17th-level or above? If you do, then every character in the party can have a diplomacy modifier of 20+ without trying very hard.


It's not just diplomacy. All of the bard's ability's, from class skills to spell list, is uniquely geared for social adventures. The fact that the Bard could negotiate circles around the other core classes and still remain fairly useful in combat makes it one of the moderately good classes.

Most D&D games do not revolve around social adventures - the most difficult challenges are usually combat. Players generally want to actually get to fight combats, too, not just make Diplomacy rolls.

- Saph

Aquillion
2007-08-20, 10:04 PM
Part of that is simply because most DM's don't enforce Handle Animal very much.

Sure, you get a +4 bonus for your Companion, and with the 4 ranks you can have at first, you'll easily get a +8 modifier with a Charisma score of 10.... but that's not enough to take 10 training an Animal Companion on, oh, Attack (DC 20), say. You get bonus tricks that can cover that... but you only start with one. And you still need to make the DC (10) to get them to do something they're trained on under pressure.That's why starting druids should take a riding dog (comes with attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel). Sure, you can go for bigger things and train them later on, but that'll last until you have wild shape no problem.

Regarding the DC 10 issue, druids can handle their companion (as long as they're not pushing) as a free action, and handle animal allows retries, so getting it to do anything it's been trained to do should never be an issue.

Dr. Weasel
2007-08-21, 12:45 AM
Saph-Bards are definitely not one of the weakest classes. I would say they rank with Rogues just ahead of Barbarians. It just comes down to their spellcasting and their Fascinate ability, which combine to make them quite useful.

A Bard's Perform Modifier at 15th level is +29 [3(Skill Focus)+4(Charisma)+18(Ranks)+2(Masterwork Instrument)+2(Heroism. You do have Heroism going, don't you?)], enough to force a Balor (CR 20) fail its Will save against Fascinate with anything less than a 20. This can be used to target 5 foes simultaneously.

This means Bards are quite capable of removing significant threats from potential combats entirely.

If they are unable to stop combat before it begins, they have enough general buffs to be productive though Haste and Displacement while contributing other minor spells such as Grease and Silence.

Throw on top of this one of the best skill lists and 6 skill points a level.
Bards are definitely a support class, but they can't be ranked with Monks or Soulknives as one of the worst.

Saph
2007-08-21, 05:52 AM
Saph-Bards are definitely not one of the weakest classes. I would say they rank with Rogues just ahead of Barbarians. It just comes down to their spellcasting and their Fascinate ability, which combine to make them quite useful.

A Bard's Perform Modifier at 15th level is +29 [3(Skill Focus)+4(Charisma)+18(Ranks)+2(Masterwork Instrument)+2(Heroism. You do have Heroism going, don't you?)], enough to force a Balor (CR 20) fail its Will save against Fascinate with anything less than a 20. This can be used to target 5 foes simultaneously.

Fascinate's generally considered not to work in a combat or soon-to-be-combat situation, unless your DM is very lenient. They had this discussion in the Battle of the Core Classes thread, if you want to look it up. The chances that a Balor is interested in just sitting around and listening to your performance is slim. Even if your DM lets you get away with it, this gets you into the same problem as before - is the rest of the party really going to be interested in sitting around while you avoid combat after combat?

And most games are played at the lower levels, not the higher ones, so how powerful a Bard is at level 15 doesn't matter much. Honestly, at level 15 and over, the full casters dominate so much that there's really not much point caring about class balance.

Bards are great in more social and less combat-heavy adventures, but when there's a lot of fighting they get outmatched by the more focused classes, and most D&D adventures have a lot of fighting.

- Saph

Jack_Simth
2007-08-21, 06:18 AM
That's why starting druids should take a riding dog (comes with attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel).
True enough. Of course, then, you're not able to simply pick the animal you want for the specific situation; you're stuck with the Riding Dog for the tricks you'll need.

Sure, you can go for bigger things and train them later on, but that'll last until you have wild shape no problem.

Yup - and if your Combat Monkey (Ape, on the 4th level -3 list, Core) gets killed, it takes several weeks of training to replace. At which point, you can't replace it virtually daily... unless you stick to the Riding Dog, the usefulness of which fades.


Regarding the DC 10 issue, druids can handle their companion (as long as they're not pushing) as a free action, and handle animal allows retries, so getting it to do anything it's been trained to do should never be an issue.
Theoretically. But then, the DM is permitted to put "reasonable" limits "on what you can really do for free" (SRD, Combat, Actions in Combat, Action Types, Free Actions), and in character, you may not know whether the command succeeded, or not, until the critter takes its turn (which is when it obeys, or not). It may not be nice of the DM, but the DM is well within his rights to say you can only try it once per round while still being within RAW.

Oh - and you can work with Large animal companions without much difficulty after about Druid-4 (when the Large animal companions start to look tasty), as Reduce Animal is Druid-2, Dismissable, and lasts an hour/level (Yes, the halfling Druid-4 can be permanently flying, even in dungeons designed for Medium critters, by way of a Reduced Dire Bat). Okay, so the beast will be a little cramped when camping in the dungeon... but that's about the only time.

Pestlepup
2007-08-21, 07:41 AM
Not to bug in the bard-debate (on which I might have a word or two to pass, mind you), as far as healing goes, Druids are far better off with Vigors. All of them. Those of you who have Spell Compendium/Complete Divine likely know that already, but I thought it still deserves to be pointed out. Great spells, and free the druid from spending actions healing on consecutive rounds. Of course, there are situations in which Heal will be more useful, but that's just life. It's still not likely worth you effort using lower-level cure-spells.

Solo
2007-08-21, 08:29 AM
An interesting limitation of SNA was brought to my attention recently. All animals are neutral, not so? This means that any of the protection from X spells will prevent them from touching you with natural weapons. And they have nothing but natural weapons, and don't get SR with which to try to beat the protection...

So I point and laugh at your polar bear from behind my Magic Circle Against Evil.

Then I realize that I'm pointing at the wildshaped druid or animal companion instead of a natures ally, and get my face eaten off.

I wasn't aware that there was a Protection from X geared towards Neutrals.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 08:38 AM
Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

So creatures of the spell's alignment are immune, rather than those of opposing alignment being specifically affected.

Droodle
2007-08-21, 08:42 AM
I wasn't aware that there was a Protection from X geared towards Neutrals.Nope. From the protection from Evil Description in the SRD:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.Notice only good summons are immune. It'll block neutral summons just fine.


An interesting limitation of SNA was brought to my attention recently. All animals are neutral, not so? This means that any of the protection from X spells will prevent them from touching you with natural weapons. And they have nothing but natural weapons, and don't get SR with which to try to beat the protection...Not necessarily a big deal. Elementals, which can be summoned at low levels, have special attacks. An air elemental's whirlwind would probably do the trick, here.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 08:49 AM
It'll block most druidic summons just fine.

I believe that's what I said...*checks* Yes, that's definitely the point I was making.

Droodle
2007-08-21, 09:14 AM
Sorry, Ikkitosen. I accidentally quoted the wrong post. Fixed it.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-21, 09:33 AM
Not necessarily a big deal. Elementals, which can be summoned at low levels, have special attacks. An air elemental's whirlwind would probably do the trick, here.
The only special attacks on the elementals that might bypass it are whirlwind and vortex (underwater only). And personally, I'd say that enveloping someone in a twister made of your own body constitutes 'bodily contact', which is what the protection spell forbids.

Elementals are smart enough that you could make them use weapons, if you really wanted to, and bypass Protection that way.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-21, 09:56 AM
Sorry, Ikkitosen. I accidentally quoted the wrong post. Fixed it.

Heh, np...