The LA-assignment thread

[Inevitability]

Please post in the next thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?520556-The-LA-assignment-thread-II-Where-The-Em-Dash-Doesn-t-Exist), thanks in advance.

In the past, I've seen many threads on under- or overpowered monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so)), and even a few (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II) that attempted to fix some faulty challenge ratings.

However, I have never seen anyone trying to give the various critters WotC has made an appropriate level adjustment. That's a pity, because many monsters are interesting creatures that are either ruined by an unplayable LA, or a total lack of it. In this thread, I will attempt to fix this.

All assigned LAs can be found in the archive (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?518086-The-LA-assignment-archive).

[Inevitability]

Aboleth

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG8.jpg

You've got an itch to play a giant psionic slime-slug? Well, I'm not judging.

Aboleths have 8 RHD of the useless aberration type (worthless skills, too), but they also have a bunch of spell-like abilities (mostly illusion-themed). The spell-likes are decent, but probably won't be applicable in combat.

Aboleths also have three interesting natural abilities: living beings they touch have their skin transformed into a slimy membrane that must continuously be moistened and anyone getting close to them underwater may lose the ability to breathe air for several hours. Then again, anyone fighting an aboleth underwater is probably able to breathe water in some way. As a result, I don't consider those abilities valuable enough to actually affect LA.

The third, and by far most useful of those abilities, allows you to enslave any living creature for days. That's almost as good as Dominate Monster 3/day, except the enslaved creature gets a new saving throw every day. Minionmancy yay!

Aboleths also get some pretty fun feats in LoM, and their spell-likes can be made quite potent with the right support. In the end, I feel comfortable assigning a +1 level adjustment to this monster, considering how badly it suffers from its HD.

Finally, please enjoy this fun aboleth fact: all but one of their psionic abilities are from the bard list and aboleths have more charisma than intelligence. Therefore, an aboleth bard makes far more sense than the sample aboleth wizard they give us.

[WhamBamSam]

Steve the Aboleth became a Bard if I recall correctly.

I'd play the heck out of a LA+1 Aboleth. Hell, I'd play it at LA+2 or +3 without complaint. The abilities are pretty solid and should do a decent job of staying relevant. They also have a few interesting race-specific feats in LoM (Quickslime is pretty hilarious). Also note that if you advance it one more Aberration HD, it becomes Huge. Losing manufactured weapons hurts a bit, but there's always a dip in Monk or Totemist or something if the 4 tentacles plus Rapidstrike aren't enough. Making a melee monster out of a low LA Aboleth seems pretty straightforward.

I suspect you're underestimating Enslave and the Sp abilities as well, especially with Cha boosted a bit. Also, the CL16 can probably be leveraged somehow. Soul Eater with Spell Drain stealing spells then casting them (potentially from a projected image) seems fun off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a way to use the particularly high CL to qualify for something of note.

The biggest problem is taking the fish out of water. Being aquatic comes with some downsides and the 10ft move speed hurts. You should be using some manner of permaflight by the level we're talking about anyway though, so movement we can deal with. Taking Feathered Wings off the table is unfortunate, but things should go pretty smoothly with a Winged Mask. You can even have one of your enslaved minions using it on you so you don't have to burn your own actions if the low-CL flight gets dispelled.

[Troacctid]

Also note that if you advance it one more Aberration HD, it becomes Huge.

That's not all that important. Player characters always advance by class levels. Only NPCs can advance by HD.

[SangoProduction]

Achaierai

It's got 6 RHD, which already kinda sucks. These are outsider levels...which are probably among the best racial HDs...still not good, but at least not among the worst. Of course, all of these monsters are going to be hampered by RHDs, so wouldn't it be a better effort to try and represent the monsters, nix those?

So, I'll assume that you get ability and feat adjustments from RHD as normal HD, and that it assigned +2 to strength. I am also assuming that the base abilities of the monster entry is equivalent is the "average" specimen, as 10 is an average human.

Abilities: +7 Str, +3 Dex, +4 Con, +1 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. OK that's...rather radical.

Natural Attacks: 2 claws (2d6 damage), 1 bite (4d6 damage?!). So 8d6, given a full attack, 4d6 on standard action. That's fairly significant, equivalent to a 4th level caster on a standard action...if they were blasting...with the restriction of melee...but let's not talk about that.
Speed: 50ft, or 10 squares. That's noticeable in some campaigns.
Sight: Darkvision 60 ft. I won't factor it in, just noting.
Spell Resistance: 19. Equivalent to an 8th level drow. Doesn't continue to scale though. Also I don't think I've had anyone play Drow for anything but RP reasons.
Size: Large...but based on the Advancement, we could easily say Medium, since we are taking away the HD. So, let's just say Medium.
Special: Weapons and natural attacks count as Lawful and Evil for purposes of damage reduction

Black Cloud: 3/day, targets in 10 ft of Achaierai take 2d6 damage. There's a bit about insanity as cast by a 16th level caster, but that's not really going to come up in an Adventurer's life. It doesn't mention a cast time. I assume it has one though, so none too significant.

Incapacities: The monster entry says it can wield weapons. Unlikely to be firearms, or even reasonably a bow, though, because of how the claw works. One could argue for it not being able to cast, because of not having hands, nor anything that specifically lifts that requirement, like Dragons do.

LA: Probably a +3, and maybe restrict it from play until the party's level 6? As far as martial characters go, it's fairly radical, mostly due to its stat adjustments. Even the odd Bard or Sorcerer (assuming they can cast), might pick it in a...rather low OP setting. The spell resistance is highly valued when concerning most LA, as well. Natural attacks are also pretty darn good, even without need for optimization, and add a lot of early game power.

LA buy off would allow you to negate +3 by level 9, which seems decent. Level 16 is far too long though. However, its early game strength can be overwhelming, and not something the rest of the party can keep up with.

[Inevitability]

Steve the Aboleth became a Bard if I recall correctly.

I'd play the heck out of a LA+1 Aboleth. Hell, I'd play it at LA+2 or +3 without complaint. The abilities are pretty solid and should do a decent job of staying relevant. They also have a few interesting race-specific feats in LoM (Quickslime is pretty hilarious). Also note that if you advance it one more Aberration HD, it becomes Huge. Losing manufactured weapons hurts a bit, but there's always a dip in Monk or Totemist or something if the 4 tentacles plus Rapidstrike aren't enough. Making a melee monster out of a low LA Aboleth seems pretty straightforward.

I suspect you're underestimating Enslave and the Sp abilities as well, especially with Cha boosted a bit. Also, the CL16 can probably be leveraged somehow. Soul Eater with Spell Drain stealing spells then casting them (potentially from a projected image) seems fun off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a way to use the particularly high CL to qualify for something of note.

The biggest problem is taking the fish out of water. Being aquatic comes with some downsides and the 10ft move speed hurts. You should be using some manner of permaflight by the level we're talking about anyway though, so movement we can deal with. Taking Feathered Wings off the table is unfortunate, but things should go pretty smoothly with a Winged Mask. You can even have one of your enslaved minions using it on you so you don't have to burn your own actions if the low-CL flight gets dispelled.

You don't actually have to advance them 1 HD: aboleth are huge from the go.

You make some good points, but while the sum of the abilities may be worth +2 or +3 LA, I am not sure if that's applicable here. Aboleths are... spread out, to say the least, and the unwritten law of D&D is that being good at one thing is better than being decent at several others.

Still, I'll bump them to +2 LA for now.



Achaierai

It's got 6 RHD, which already kinda sucks. These are outsider levels...which are probably among the best racial HDs...still not good, but at least not among the worst. Of course, all of these monsters are going to be hampered by RHDs, so wouldn't it be a better effort to try and represent the monsters, nix those?

So, I'll assume that you get ability and feat adjustments from RHD as normal HD, and that it assigned +2 to strength. I am also assuming that the base abilities of the monster entry is equivalent is the "average" specimen, as 10 is an average human.

Abilities: +7 Str, +3 Dex, +4 Con, +1 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. OK that's...rather radical.

Natural Attacks: 2 claws (2d6 damage), 1 bite (4d6 damage?!). So 8d6, given a full attack, 4d6 on standard action. That's fairly significant, equivalent to a 4th level caster on a standard action...if they were blasting...with the restriction of melee...but let's not talk about that.
Speed: 50ft, or 10 squares. That's noticeable in some campaigns.
Sight: Darkvision 60 ft. I won't factor it in, just noting.
Spell Resistance: 19. Equivalent to an 8th level drow. Doesn't continue to scale though. Also I don't think I've had anyone play Drow for anything but RP reasons.
Size: Large...but based on the Advancement, we could easily say Medium, since we are taking away the HD. So, let's just say Medium.
Special: Weapons and natural attacks count as Lawful and Evil for purposes of damage reduction

Black Cloud: 3/day, targets in 10 ft of Achaierai take 2d6 damage. There's a bit about insanity as cast by a 16th level caster, but that's not really going to come up in an Adventurer's life. It doesn't mention a cast time. I assume it has one though, so none too significant.

Incapacities: The monster entry says it can wield weapons. Unlikely to be firearms, or even reasonably a bow, though, because of how the claw works. One could argue for it not being able to cast, because of not having hands, nor anything that specifically lifts that requirement, like Dragons do.

LA: Probably a +3, and maybe restrict it from play until the party's level 6? As far as martial characters go, it's fairly radical, mostly due to its stat adjustments. Even the odd Bard or Sorcerer (assuming they can cast), might pick it in a...rather low OP setting. The spell resistance is highly valued when concerning most LA, as well. Natural attacks are also pretty darn good, even without need for optimization, and add a lot of early game power.

LA buy off would allow you to negate +3 by level 9, which seems decent. Level 16 is far too long though. However, its early game strength can be overwhelming, and not something the rest of the party can keep up with.

Sango, I appreciate you trying to help, and I may not have been clear in the OP, but could you please not do this? Firstly, discussion on the aboleth is still ongoing, and secondly, I don't like you hijacking someone's thread.

I'll post my personal assessment of the Achaierai later today: could you please wait with your suggestions until then?

[SangoProduction]

Sango, I appreciate you trying to help, and I may not have been clear in the OP, but could you please not do this? Firstly, discussion on the aboleth is still ongoing, and secondly, I don't like you hijacking someone's thread.

I'll post my personal assessment of the Achaierai later today: could you please wait with your suggestions until then?

I thought this was a post about assigning LA to creatures. Sorry. Didn't think you wanted each thread assigned to one monster.

[Inevitability]

I thought this was a post about assigning LA to creatures. Sorry. Didn't think you wanted each thread assigned to one monster.

No, I merely want to follow a system similar to 'That's only CR 9?' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II), where one person posts monsters and gives an initial assessment, which can then be commented on by others.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Do you want to discuss the psionic aboleth here, as well? It's technically not in the MM1, but the EPH only lists changes relative to the MM1 version.

The difference is pretty big, but more in flavour than in power. The MM1 aboleth uses illusions, but psionics are almost illusion-less. The EPH version has a DC 20 dominate (any target), several powers that daze/confuse (although not all that effective at range), and just the one illusion. Its ML is only 13, and most of the powers are mind-affecting (wall of ectoplasm is the exception here).

[Inevitability]

Do you want to discuss the psionic aboleth here, as well? It's technically not in the MM1, but the EPH only lists changes relative to the MM1 version.

The difference is pretty big, but more in flavour than in power. The MM1 aboleth uses illusions, but psionics are almost illusion-less. The EPH version has a DC 20 dominate (any target), several powers that daze/confuse (although not all that effective at range), and just the one illusion. Its ML is only 13, and most of the powers are mind-affecting (wall of ectoplasm is the exception here).

Variant creatures will have to wait until it's their book's turn.

[zergling.exe]

No, I merely want to follow a system similar to 'That's only CR 9?' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187046-That-s-ONLY-CR-9-Let-s-Read-The-Monster-Manual-II), where one person posts monsters and gives an initial assessment, which can then be commented on by others.

Perhaps you may want to add the rules you are implying to the OP to clarify them for any one new coming in to the thread, as I too thought you meant that other's could speed it up by helping post monsters.

[DarkSoul]

Personally, I thought his intent was pretty clear. There's no mention of collaborating anywhere.

Back on topic, I'm not sure a CL 16 Dominate Person 3/day is appropriate for a 10th-level PC. I agree that bard would be much more appropriate for the Aboleth than wizard is. Bardic Knowledge seems particularly well-suited and the charisma synergy would work nicely.

I do think SangoProduction mentioned something that needs to be taken into consideration for setting LA: Ability score adjustments. Assuming the standard array and high scores in mental abilities, it looks like +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha. That's likely worth at least +1 LA on its own.

[WhamBamSam]

You don't actually have to advance them 1 HD: aboleth are huge from the go.

You make some good points, but while the sum of the abilities may be worth +2 or +3 LA, I am not sure if that's applicable here. Aboleths are... spread out, to say the least, and the unwritten law of D&D is that being good at one thing is better than being decent at several others.

Still, I'll bump them to +2 LA for now.Huh, my mistake. While it'd be better in some ways if it could get an extra 5ft of reach and +8 Str for one more level, that still means we're looking at sizable numbers for trip, bull rush, and the like should we look to go that route with the melee stuff.

That's a fair point, I suppose. I do think that a good optimizer could make it dovetail into a fairly cohesive whole. And even if you're just using enslaved minions as flanking buddies or what have you, it's still better to have those things than not. The SLAs skew a bit toward out of combat utility as well, so while they might not directly synergize with the melee side, they aren't tripping over each other either.


Back on topic, I'm not sure a CL 16 Dominate Person 3/day is appropriate for a 10th-level PC. I agree that bard would be much more appropriate for the Aboleth than wizard is. Bardic Knowledge seems particularly well-suited and the charisma synergy would work nicely.

I do think SangoProduction mentioned something that needs to be taken into consideration for setting LA: Ability score adjustments. Assuming the standard array and high scores in mental abilities, it looks like +4 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha. That's likely worth at least +1 LA on its own.The CL doesn't seem to directly matter much in the case of Enslave. It's permanent until shaken off or removed, which is nice, and it can affect nonhumanoids, which is nicer, but the new save each day is sort of a pain. A 10th level Beguiler, Sorcerer, or Wizard could easily throw around 3 dominate persons in a day, so I don't think it's unreasonable.

The mental stats are only consequential if you can find something to do with them though. Even at LA+0, those 8 RHD would make for a pretty poor caster base. That's not to say there aren't a lot of such things, but they eat levels.

What I suspect we ought to do is compare an Aboleth PC build with a melee build at a similar level of optimization and see how they compare at, say, ECL 10, ECL 15, and ECL 20. Or maybe have a few builds to set a baseline for different archetypes and see what people can do with the various monsters at a similar level of optimization.

I think I'm happy with LA+2, at least for the moment.

[Inevitability]

An aboleth's main appeal for a melee class is its size and strength, right? The question is: how easily can we duplicate that?

A half-minotaur goliath with a reach weapon counts as huge for most purposes, has a reach comparable to the aboleth's, and has a +16 racial bonus to strength at +2 LA. The aboleth has higher ability scores in non-strength abilities and psionic abilities, but remember that while the aboleth is getting these, the goliataur is taking levels in Spirit Lion Totem barbarian and Frenzied Berserker. Even if half-minotaur's LA is increased (something any sane DM would do), the goliataur would probably still win.

I think +2 LA is fine. It makes aboleths playable without turning them into the One True Way to Melee (that honor goes to two-handed power attacking).

[Inevitability]

Achaierai

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG9.jpg

In the category: 'D&D monsters that never should have been'; the Achaierai. It's a horse-sized flightless evil bird that can release smoke that makes you insane. On the topic of insanity; what was TSR thinking when they came up with this thing? Did they get together and decide a magic smokebird would greatly improve the game?

6 racial hit dice aren't great. I guess one should be grateful they're at least outsider type, though. The skill list is pretty bad, and the spell resistance will be as annoying as it's useful (remember, there's plenty of SR:No attack spells, but few SR:No buffs). Achaierai have full BAB, strong natural attacks, Large size and a natural strength bonus, so they make natural melee combatants. The smoke attack is sub-par, though.

In the end, Achaierai aren't significantly stronger than a tier 3 of equal level. +0 LA is fine.

[JBarca]

In the end, I'd put Achaierai at +2 LA. They are a strong but bland basic creature that has surprising options available to it but is limited by a lack of manufactured weapons and versatility.

I'd be tempted to put it at +3 because of the Insanity effect, since that's actually relatively powerful, though the DC is, and will remain, rather low. That, coupled with the fact that a Large, +8 Str race with 6 level of full BaB will almost certainly end up close to the enemy, makes it seem strong. But the lack of scaling for SR (yes, it's annoying, but it can be lowered as a Standard and so doesn't prevent pre-battle buffs, so I'd count it as a strict benefit) and the fact that no one will want to play a quadrupedal bird-squid... thing is pushing me to agree with your estimation.

[Godskook]

In the end, I'd put Achaierai at +2 LA. They are a strong but bland basic creature that has surprising options available to it but is limited by a lack of manufactured weapons and versatility.

Necklace of natural attacks means that they have access to all the magic item-based goodies of a manufactured weapon.

[Inevitability]

I'd be tempted to put it at +3 because of the Insanity effect, since that's actually relatively powerful, though the DC is, and will remain, rather low. That, coupled with the fact that a Large, +8 Str race with 6 level of full BaB will almost certainly end up close to the enemy, makes it seem strong. But the lack of scaling for SR (yes, it's annoying, but it can be lowered as a Standard and so doesn't prevent pre-battle buffs, so I'd count it as a strict benefit) and the fact that no one will want to play a quadrupedal bird-squid... thing is pushing me to agree with your estimation.

Don't forget the insanity effect is more of a confusion effect, as it only lasts for three hours. In addition, it's non-friendly, so you might very well end up with an insane fellow party member.


Necklace of natural attacks means that they have access to all the magic item-based goodies of a manufactured weapon.

Touche, but note that an Achaierai will have to pay over thrice as much compared to a barbarian who only enchants his greataxe. And you still can't use items that require opposable thumbs, including potions and various other magic items.

[DeAnno]

Does this thing really even deserve a LA at all? It's only CR 5, and has 6 HD to start with. Large with reach, +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +6 Cha, +10 NA. That's a good set of stats, but it's also missing out on 6 levels of class features.

A Half Ogre from Races of Destiny has only slightly worse physical stats on +2 LA and no RHD. I think I would much rather be a Half Ogre with 6 class levels than one of these things with 6 Outsider HD (Half Ogre Fighter 6 might even be better, with reasonably good feats), which makes me think +2 LA is too much.

[Inevitability]

Does this thing really even deserve a LA at all? It's only CR 5, and has 6 HD to start with. Large with reach, +8 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +6 Cha, +10 NA. That's a good set of stats, but it's also missing out on 6 levels of class features.

A Half Ogre from Races of Destiny has only slightly worse physical stats on +2 LA and no RHD. I think I would much rather be a Half Ogre with 6 class levels than one of these things with 6 Outsider HD (Half Ogre Fighter 6 might even be better, with reasonably good feats), which makes me think +2 LA is too much.

Really? I think +2 LA fits pretty well. 6 levels of fighter give the half-ogre worse reflex and will saves (and that's before factoring in the achaierai's racial ability bonuses). Remember, ECL 8 is where Charm Monster, Confusion, and Fear start getting used: the +5 the Achaierai is ahead of the half-ogre will save the party more than once.

Also, I don't see how you claim their ability scores are almost the same. The achaierai has 2 more strength, 2 more constitution, 4 more dexterity, 4 more wisdom, 2 more intelligence and 8 more points of charisma. The half-ogre will have a single ability increase from his class levels, but it won't make up for this.

You say it has CR 5 as if that is a reason to lower the LA. Ignoring that the CR system fails to do what it's supposed to do at all levels, almost all monsters have CR's lower than their ECL. A kobold adept 4 is CR 1 but ECL 4. A half-fey, widely regarded as a well-balanced template, has +2 LA but only +1 CR.

Also, AC. Counting the higher dexterity, an Achaierai will have an AC about 8 points above the half-ogre's, even if it has to pay double for basic armor.

Finally, the Achaierai is simply faster. Speed matters if you melee, and a 20 ft. increase in speed matters a lot.

So yes, the Achaierai is fine at +2 LA.

[AnachroNinja]

Just to point out, in many cases CR being radically different from ECL is not a failing of the CR system. Rather it's an obvious failure in the ECL system. I tell excited new players all the time, if a monsters CR is not at least 1/2 of its ECL, it's completely unplayable, and even that is only really worth while for the caster type monsters like Rakshasha and mind flayers.

In general I'd say the LA of 2 is not completely unreasonable, but it certainly wouldn't be overpowered at LA 0 either. Using CR as ECL is one of the few pathfinder changes I agree with.

[Inevitability]

Just to point out, in many cases CR being radically different from ECL is not a failing of the CR system. Rather it's an obvious failure in the ECL system. I tell excited new players all the time, if a monsters CR is not at least 1/2 of its ECL, it's completely unplayable, and even that is only really worth while for the caster type monsters like Rakshasha and mind flayers.

In general I'd say the LA of 2 is not completely unreasonable, but it certainly wouldn't be overpowered at LA 0 either. Using CR as ECL is one of the few pathfinder changes I agree with.

The issue with using CR as ECL is that while some monsters follow the class abilities = CR rule, others don't. A 9th-level human sorcerer will have equal CR and ECL, but something like the Immoth will be ahead of it in several ways while being the same CR. This isn't good, considering the entire purpose of the LA system is to make more creatures viable PC's, rather than less.

To put it simply: CR=ECL is a decent rule, but not an universally applicable one, and should definitely not be used in every case. Rather, it should serve as a guideline when determining a creature's proper LA.

[Inevitability]

Allip

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG10.jpg

The infamous allip: best known for being able to kill permanently incapitate half the monster manual rather easily, with most of the other half being unable to hurt it. I don't like saying it, but perhaps WotC was right when they didn't give this a level adjustment.

So what does being an allip give you? Four undead HD, the undead type, incorporeality, turn resistance, darkvision, fly speed at perfect maneuverability, the ability to make people who try to read their minds go mad and a massive AoE that makes people temporarily go insane. Oh, almost forgot: they can also drain your sanity with a touch. Also, an allip's ability scores bonuses are pretty good, and their skill list contains all the scouting skills.

So where put the allip's LA? A random sample from the monster manual reveals that monsters start being able to reliably beat an allip from CR 8 on, implying a LA of +4. However, comparing allips to PC's, I personally think +3 LA is more suitable, especially considering my initial search failed to account for magic weapons: something easily available even for a standard EL 7 encounter.

Note that this decision was not easy, and I would love some feedback here. Allips are tricky enough to use as DM's: making them viable PC's will be even more difficult.

[AnachroNinja]

I do agree that CR as ECL isn't perfect but it's better than the ECL system in 3.5 in my opinion. A well built and played PC will be able to beat the vast majority of equal CR'd monsters. The Archerai might be comparable to an 8th level fighter, but it's could easily get curb stomped by a 5th level wizard, let alone an 8th level wizard, cleric, or duskblade even. While obviously high op wizards aren't the balance point, neither are fighters and barbarians.

To take the allip for example, it's abilities are generally comparable to the LA 4 Pixie. Good avoidance of attacks, a decent if not earthshaking mode of attack, very effective at fleeing. Bug difference is that the 4 undead HD cripple any kind of spell caster, while also being horribly ineffective for melee because undead HD are terribad. Often the racial HD are worse then the LA.

I realize I mostly rambled there without making any clear points, my bad.

[Inevitability]

I do agree that CR as ECL isn't perfect but it's better than the ECL system in 3.5 in my opinion.

I agree that 3.5's ECL system is horrible. However, that is not due to some inherent flaw in the system, but mostly because the developers were far too quick to over-LA monsters. Take a look at the hobgoblin or rakshasa if you want to see what I mean.

However, I also reject the CR=ECL system. While a useful guideline, in some cases it just doesn't cut it. Do you consider an allip a balanced 3rd-level PC?


A well built and played PC will be able to beat the vast majority of equal CR'd monsters. The Archerai might be comparable to an 8th level fighter, but it's could easily get curb stomped by a 5th level wizard, let alone an 8th level wizard, cleric, or duskblade even. While obviously high op wizards aren't the balance point, neither are fighters and barbarians.

There is a difference between 'equal in power' and 'can beat the other in a straight fight'. A buff-focused sorcerer is tier 2, yet might very well lose against an ubercharger. Balancing monsters by what level PC's they can beat is for determining CR, not determining ECL.


To take the allip for example, it's abilities are generally comparable to the LA 4 Pixie. Good avoidance of attacks, a decent if not earthshaking mode of attack, very effective at fleeing. Bug difference is that the 4 undead HD cripple any kind of spell caster, while also being horribly ineffective for melee because undead HD are terribad. Often the racial HD are worse then the LA.

So? I chose +3 LA because it seemed the fairest. Lower and allips are essentially invulnerable for most of their early career, higher and an allip will die the first time it fights anything that can hurt it. Are you advocating +4 LA? Because as you say, the racial HD absolutely cripple it.

[Inevitability]

Angel, Astral Deva

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sigil-city-of-doors-nwn2-persistent-world/images/e/ec/A2217937d38fe63b7a4740c651ad27c9.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151128051152

The astral deva is the first monster I evaluate that already has a LA. Said LA is so high that it brings back the problem of giant health gaps between party members, which is usually only an issue at low levels. Said LA is so high, that by the time you can finally play an astral deva, the party's wizard has been binding them for nine levels and shapechanging into them for three. Said LA is so high, a commoner of equivalent level could duplicate most of their abilities with WBL only.

Level adjustment notwithstanding, astral devas are a strong race. +8 or higher bonuses to all ability scores, high speed, high natural armor, damage reduction, energy immunities, spell resistance (high enough to remain relevant even at 20th-level), permanent Magic Circle against Evil and Tongues, shapechanging, uncanny dodge, and more spell-like abilities than you shake a +3 heavy mace of disruption at.

So what level should it become playable? Devas are offensively behind dedicated melee builds, though they try to make up for it with a fair deal of casting. The defensive abilities won't be heavily factored in, because being good at not dying isn't great if you fail to establish yourself as a target (just ask monks) and again, spell resistance will make you resist beneficial spells while offensive spells can just be directed at different targets.

In the end, it is obvious that despite their big numbers, devas simply fail to pick a niche and fill it well. They definitely aren't useless, having a wide range of abilities, but they lack the strength a focused PC build possesses when doing its chosen job. I put their LA at +2.

[Flickerdart]

I'm picking up a bit of a trend - three of the four monsters so far are LA+2, and one is LA+3. I'm curious to see what LAs will look like for other monsters down the line - is 2 simply the most LA you're willing to assign for a monster that just punches faces better than normal?

[Inevitability]

I'm picking up a bit of a trend - three of the four monsters so far are LA+2, and one is LA+3. I'm curious to see what LAs will look like for other monsters down the line - is 2 simply the most LA you're willing to assign for a monster that just punches faces better than normal?

I think it's been mostly coincidental so far (after all, we've only had four monsters). I have no special disinclination towards assigning a strong monster a high LA, but I am aware that high LA's tend to absolutely cripple a monster (go ahead, name one monster with over +4 LA you'd ever consider playing).

Still, I can think of a few monsters that are going to get higher LA's (shadows, for one).

[Inevitability]

Planetar

http://www.aidedd.org/dnd/images/planetar.jpg

The planetar, infamous for getting 17th-level cleric casting and a bunch of other goodies at CR 16. Apparently the low HD was supposed to balance it out?

This casting makes rating them quite difficult, though, and my eventual decision surprised even myself. In hopes of making it understandable, I'll evaluate possible LA's one by one.

+0, +1, and +2 LA all have the same problem; they allow epic spellcasting by ECL 20, so they're out. +3 LA removes all differences between a planetar and an equally-leveled cleric's casting, but the cleric doesn't have the additional perks of being an angel. A monster being stronger than a tier 1 class is a pretty clear indication its LA is too low.

+4 LA, then? It'd place a planetar one level behind a cleric when it comes to casting. However, once you get 9th-level spells, all more caster levels do is give you additional slots, while the planetar still has its regeneration, spell-likes, SR, etc.

Remaining level adjustments: +5 and +6. I actually think both could fit, and the only reason I pick +5 is my dislike of characters without any class levels.

[AnachroNinja]

You asked me if I thought an allip was a viable 3rd level charactar. I'll grant that it might be a little strong at level 3. Now I would say that an allip is equivalent to a 4-5 level character. Maybe slightly in the tough to kill side, but that's only because monsters so rarely come with magical weapons. Especially since you have to bear in mind that an allip attack never really improves. They do the same amount of wisdom damage forever. They can't gain any meaningful melee ability. With no CON score they are going to be light on HP forever, and constantly in danger from force effects. A group of kobolds with a few adepts would have a pretty good chance of magic missiling it to death. It's HD and inability to speak intelligibly make it impossible for it to be a competent caster, it's weak bab make it's tough attacks less of a benefit and more of a necessity. Best hope is a rogue build using sneak attack touch attacks, and even that isn't going to be amazing. I'd call it comparable to a Pixie rogue or warlock and so I wouldn't give it any more then +1 LA. I'd rather a PC start out a bit tough in early levels then completely fall off in the mid levels and be useless at high levels.

The planetar is another example. Cleric casting is pretty powerful and you are weighing that pretty heavily. It also has some good SLAs and abilities. It unfortunately gets access to shoddy domains since they do not appear to have the option of worshipping concepts, only deities, no turn undead, so no DMM. Most DMs would almost certainly not allow them to cast any evil descriptor spells. By and large they have most of the same special qualities as a DMM cleric with a good set of persisted spells. Best thing they get is regeneration since as noted, spell resistance is a double edged sword. At 14 HD and LA 5, I would never choose to play one over a cleric19 unless I for some reason desperately wanted to be an angel. It essentially makes planetar a better version of the half celestial template, which is ass to begin with.

My comparison between characters and monsters and whether they can beat an equal CR monster is mostly meant to illustrate that just because a PC allip could theoretically hide in the ground forget killing animals for XP doesn't mean that's really a realistic game scenario or the baseline we should use for measuring it's LA. Yes, some abilities are more powerful in a PCs hands then a monster, but we can't always rate things on the worst case scenario.

[Inevitability]

You asked me if I thought an allip was a viable 3rd level charactar. I'll grant that it might be a little strong at level 3. Now I would say that an allip is equivalent to a 4-5 level character. Maybe slightly in the tough to kill side, but that's only because monsters so rarely come with magical weapons. Especially since you have to bear in mind that an allip attack never really improves. They do the same amount of wisdom damage forever. They can't gain any meaningful melee ability. With no CON score they are going to be light on HP forever, and constantly in danger from force effects. A group of kobolds with a few adepts would have a pretty good chance of magic missiling it to death. It's HD and inability to speak intelligibly make it impossible for it to be a competent caster, it's weak bab make it's tough attacks less of a benefit and more of a necessity. Best hope is a rogue build using sneak attack touch attacks, and even that isn't going to be amazing. I'd call it comparable to a Pixie rogue or warlock and so I wouldn't give it any more then +1 LA. I'd rather a PC start out a bit tough in early levels then completely fall off in the mid levels and be useless at high levels.

1. Allips can definitely improve their wisdom damage. For one, they can take Empowered Ability Damage.
2. They can also wield weapons (just add Ghost Touch or Ghostly Grasp) or cast spells (you don't have to speak intelligibly for verbal components, merely speak).
3. On the subject of magic missile'ing kobolds, allips can easily gain full cover by hiding in a wall/floor/ceiling. Only a readied action can harm you in that case, and if your DM has an army of spellcasting kobolds hold their action so they can magic missile you to death lack of undeath, you might want to have a serious conversation with them.
4. Allips aren't 'squishy'. An allip has on average 6.5 HP per level. That's equal to a rogue with 14 constitution and a +2 con item. No frontline numbers, but no squishy wizard either. Not to mention that they will be enjoying 50% miss chances from almost everything; a luxury the rogue doesn't possess. Force effects aren't as big an issue as you say: a Brooch of Shielding is 1500 GP, an item of continuous Forceward 56000 GP (available by level 11).
5. I can see lots of reasons to pick allips over pixie rogues/warlocks. Incorporeality has already been mentioned, and then there's the massive no-action disabling, the undead immunities, the ability to overcome DR, and Madness is surprisingly useful when you realize it counters Mindsight.


The planetar is another example. Cleric casting is pretty powerful and you are weighing that pretty heavily. It also has some good SLAs and abilities. It unfortunately gets access to shoddy domains since they do not appear to have the option of worshipping concepts, only deities, no turn undead, so no DMM. Most DMs would almost certainly not allow them to cast any evil descriptor spells. By and large they have most of the same special qualities as a DMM cleric with a good set of persisted spells. Best thing they get is regeneration since as noted, spell resistance is a double edged sword. At 14 HD and LA 5, I would never choose to play one over a cleric19 unless I for some reason desperately wanted to be an angel. It essentially makes planetar a better version of the half celestial template, which is ass to begin with.

6. You say 'shoddy domains', I say 'any of the domains available to Good-aligned clerics, and then some'. If you are desperate for a single domain not granted by any Good deity, just take Heretic of the Faith.
7. I am pretty sure 'it is weaker than a DMM cleric' isn't a valid reason to buff something. If you disagree, I suggest checking out... well, everything but a handful of Tier 1's. If you insist a proper cleric must have Turn Undead, +5 LA still allows for a single-level dip in cleric (and the always-available Air domain grants additional turn attempts).
8. Indeed; planetars can't cast evil spells, just like 'normal' Good clerics. I assume you do not consider a NG human cleric underpowered?
9. I'm not sure what the last sentence is supposed to mean. Planetars are better than half-celestials, which is good because half-celestials are horrible? Planetars are better than half-celestials, except not? Planetars are better than half-celestials, which is a bad thing?


My comparison between characters and monsters and whether they can beat an equal CR monster is mostly meant to illustrate that just because a PC allip could theoretically hide in the ground forget killing animals for XP doesn't mean that's really a realistic game scenario or the baseline we should use for measuring it's LA. Yes, some abilities are more powerful in a PCs hands then a monster, but we can't always rate things on the worst case scenario.

10. Never have I ever stated an allip player will or should hide in the ground and kill animals for XP, nor was it my reason to reject the CR=ECL system. I simply reject said system because certain abilities are more powerful when used by PC's, as you admit yourself.
11. You say we "cannot always rate things on the worst case scenario". I must disagree. If you're playing in a seafaring campaign, you won't play a fire elemental. If you want to play a wizard, you pick a different race than ogre. Players will pick races that fit their campaign and class: and in that way there is a 'worst case scenario'.

[Flickerdart]

11. You say we "cannot always rate things on the worst case scenario". I must disagree. If you're playing in a seafaring campaign, you won't play a fire elemental. If you want to play a wizard, you pick a different race than ogre. Players will pick races that fit their campaign and class: and in that way there is a 'worst case scenario'.
To me, this says the opposite - since players will never pick a fire elemental for a water campaign, or an ogre for a wizard, we can safely ignore these worst-case situations. For example, should the ogre get less LA because it penalizes Cha? Not really, since anyone picking up ogre won't care about the Cha.

Or do you mean that "PC is too strong" is the worst case, and "PC sucks" is the...best case? Medium case?

[Inevitability]

Or do you mean that "PC is too strong" is the worst case, and "PC sucks" is the...best case? Medium case?

Anarchoninja referred to a PC possessing abilities that are far more powerful when used by PC's then when used by NPC's as 'the worst-case scenario', and I was quoting him, so this.

You're right, though, it is kind of weird when taken to its logical opposite.


I'm really interested in what the hivemind has to say here, though. What do you all consider appropriate LA's for allips and planetars?

[Flickerdart]

The allip is very similar to a rogue type, in the sense that the character's effectiveness depends very heavily on the enemies it faces. This is a similar problem to the one faced by spellthieves, beguilers, enchanters, illusionists, and similar folks. I would say that we should not consider it solely at its most powerful, since it's trivial for the DM to toss in encounters that shut the allip down. However, these encounters are pretty rare at the early levels. LA+3 seems fair to me, since it can be bought off by 20th, when the allip's abilities can be bought for gold (as can resistances to them).

The planetar is in a rather curious position as well. On the one hand, clerics are amazeballs when optimized, T1, zilla, etc. On the other hand, most people don't play that kind of game. Should we give the ogre LA0 because fighters drool, wizards rule? I don't think we should. LA+5 is spot on - the planetar gets access to nines already, and that's all that matters. If you want to DMM or more domains, take your one class level as cleric.


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

[WhamBamSam]

You can't actually buy it off by level 20, since RHD don't count toward LA buyoff. Of course, so long as we're making the rules friendlier toward monstrous characters, we should really just change that, but yeah.

I agree that the biggest issue for the Allip is a sort of "all or nothing" problem. Take an Allip 4/LA 3/Swordsage or Warblade 5 with Empowered Ability Damage, and Debilitating Strike for instance. It can open each encounter of the day with a Debilitating Strike Mind Strike which deals ~10 Wis damage (maybe more if Mind Strike gets empowered as well, which it might). If the opponent doesn't have a defense against that, they're going to be unconscious or crippled in short enough order to make it an effective tactic. LA +3 is probably the fairest we're going to get though.

I think LA+5 is okay for the Planetar. I don't think it's necessarily wrong to compare it to the nearest analogue among the classes (ie, I think we should measure it against a Cleric rather than a Fighter), but the Angel abilities seem like a decent enough trade against Turn Undead generally speaking. At the very highest op-levels a Cleric might be slightly better, but when you're already at the singularity anyway...

[AnachroNinja]

Allips can improve their ability damage by a minimal amount yes, but your missing my point. There is no graduated curve for them. They are not going to see a notable difference between level 5 and 15. And yes, they can wield a weapon, however their complete lack of a strength score means their damage will be minimal, and unlike ghosts who have an in game reason to possibly have equipment, an allip will have to find that equipment on its own because it's very unlikely anyone will craft it for them. I don't remember the rules for applying something like ghost touch to an amulet but I assume it may be possible. Note that allips are not ethereal like ghosts so you can't plane shift equipment to the ethereal plane for them to access. And I'm sorry but I'm not at all sold on their ability to cast spells. If a wild shaped druid can't cast spells without natural spell due to not being able to form words and sentences, I'd have to rule that being unable to speak intelligibly prevents verbal components. If theres an ironclad ruling somewhere else, then sure, absent that, not a chance.

As far as planetars, you were the one who initially compared them directly to a cleric of their casting level. And no they don't have access to any domain COMBINATION that a good cleric does, because they are only allowed domains from a very short list or their deity. They can not worship a concept and just select the domains they want. Claiming they can take a level of cleric to get turn undead at level twenty is not much of an argument either. Your justification seems to be "OK, with this LA you get one level of being subpar to a normal character then you hit 20, catch up, and the games over. Or you go epic, except you can't cast epic spells yet. Enjoy those stat boosts kid."

You're essentially judging the LAs by the best possible concept and class combination and situation. That's what I meant by wrist case scenario. If you set the level adjustment for an allip to be accurate for a sneak attacking rogue who only pops out of the ground when it's safe, then no one can play that race unless they are that high end concept. That's not a good balance point. That's the problem with high LA on creatures with multiple HD. You might as well come out and say you can't use this monster for anything but this class. Even if allips could cast spells, at 4 HD and 2 la no one can ever justify a caster with them. It's pointless to even pretend they have the option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can't actually buy it off by level 20, since RHD don't count toward LA buyoff. Of course, so long as we're making the rules friendlier toward monstrous characters, we should really just change that, but yeah.
That might lead to some difficult situations. For example, take the 12 HD astral deva, and give it Dire_Stirge's new level adjustment of +2. The buyoff levels for +2 LA are at 6 and 9. Does this mean the deva comes in at LA +0 effectively, because the buyoff levels have passed? Clearly, the point of the level adjustment is that that doesn't happen.

An obvious fix is to assign the deva LA +3, and then start the game with one bought off one at level 9, allowing further buyoff at 15 and 18. This is a bit better than the basic buyoff rules, which would allow buyoff at 18 and 21, but is it really worth the bother? I think it's easier to assign LA with the buyoff rules in mind (e.g. assign a bit less to high-HD creatures), and exclude RHD from buyoff rules.

[Inevitability]

Allips can improve their ability damage by a minimal amount yes, but your missing my point. There is no graduated curve for them. They are not going to see a notable difference between level 5 and 15. And yes, they can wield a weapon, however their complete lack of a strength score means their damage will be minimal, and unlike ghosts who have an in game reason to possibly have equipment, an allip will have to find that equipment on its own because it's very unlikely anyone will craft it for them. I don't remember the rules for applying something like ghost touch to an amulet but I assume it may be possible. Note that allips are not ethereal like ghosts so you can't plane shift equipment to the ethereal plane for them to access. And I'm sorry but I'm not at all sold on their ability to cast spells. If a wild shaped druid can't cast spells without natural spell due to not being able to form words and sentences, I'd have to rule that being unable to speak intelligibly prevents verbal components. If theres an ironclad ruling somewhere else, then sure, absent that, not a chance.

1. Where did you get the idea that allips can't advance in power? Give them levels in rogue, in martial adept, in a caster class, heck, in monk if you must. As long as you have a clear purpose for these class levels, you can work them into a gradual progression.
2. You can apply Ghost Touch to any object (see also: savage species), but it's cheaper and easier to take Ghostly Grasp. Remember, once an incorporeal creature holds an object, said object becomes incorporeal too.
3. If you are absolutely insistent that allips can't cast spells with verbal components, Nonverbal Spell. There, I added the incredible tax of a single feat to the poor, feat-starved caster classes.
4. It's rather arrogant to refer to someone else's interpretation of the rules as having, I quote, 'not a chance' when the RAW support for your side of the argument is harder to find than a kobold with Darkstalker.

Additional fact on allips: Libris Mortis considers them equivalent to 7th-level cohorts, for all that's worth.


As far as planetars, you were the one who initially compared them directly to a cleric of their casting level. And no they don't have access to any domain COMBINATION that a good cleric does, because they are only allowed domains from a very short list or their deity. They can not worship a concept and just select the domains they want. Claiming they can take a level of cleric to get turn undead at level twenty is not much of an argument either. Your justification seems to be "OK, with this LA you get one level of being subpar to a normal character then you hit 20, catch up, and the games over. Or you go epic, except you can't cast epic spells yet. Enjoy those stat boosts kid."

5. Yes, I compared them to a cleric of their caster level, because that's what they are. Clerics of a certain caster level who happen to also be angels. You, however, compared them to a cleric of their caster level with Divine Metamagic who is fully using said Divine Metamagic, which is a whole other level of optimization.
6. Your insistence that a cleric worshipping a deity is something far less than a deity-less cleric is getting annoying. You get one of the two domains you really wanted, and if you must can get the second one with a class dip or feat.
7. Do you really want to bring epic spells into this discussion? Of course epic spells are superior to stat boosts: they're superior to everything. That's why they're either banned, nerfed, or not used because only a handful of games ever reaches Epic levels.


You're essentially judging the LAs by the best possible concept and class combination and situation. That's what I meant by wrist case scenario. If you set the level adjustment for an allip to be accurate for a sneak attacking rogue who only pops out of the ground when it's safe, then no one can play that race unless they are that high end concept. That's not a good balance point. That's the problem with high LA on creatures with multiple HD. You might as well come out and say you can't use this monster for anything but this class. Even if allips could cast spells, at 4 HD and 2 la no one can ever justify a caster with them. It's pointless to even pretend they have the option.

8. I can play a half-minotaur wizard who avoids melee like a vampire avoids clerics. Does that mean half-minotaur is over LA'ed? No, of course not; it means you foolishly thought being half-half-cow could improve your wizard! You shouldn't be rewarded for that bad decision, especially not if it means others are punished for others' good decisions.
9. I can see viable allip builds using rogue, duskblade, dread necromancer, crusader, and various other classes (including Ur-Priest, but that's cheating). What makes you think they're only good for a single class?
10. Not every character who doesn't have high-level spells is worthless: many gish builds lack them and are still viable combatants. One of the most popular gish classes (Swiftblade) even directly prevents people from getting 9th-level magic, yet many take it.


EDIT: Okay, you want a reason to assume allips can cast spells? There's a rule stating all creatures can cast spells in their natural form, which I sadly can't find right now, but can prove indirectly. Take Spirit Nagas, from the monster manual, who look like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG192.jpg) yet cast spells as 7th-level sorcerers and don't have Still Spell. If they can cast somatic spells without hands, an allip can cast verbal spells without comprehensible speech.

[Inevitability]

Angel, Solar

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/bgtscc/images/8/89/Solar_channeler1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130731094412

Note: Solars are Epic creatures, and so will any PC's they're compared to be. I am, however, ignoring epic spells here; partially because they can turn any character into a literal god, and partially because both the solar and the PC's they're compared to can get it anyway.

Solars, arguably the most powerful creatures in the Monster Manual. They laugh at balors. They eat pit fiends for breakfast. They annihilate nations with a word (I'm only slightly exaggerating here). Of course there's someone out there who wants to play one.

Despite its fearsome reputation, though, solars are just planetars on steroids (a lot of steroids). The only difference that doesn't amount to 'bigger numbers' is the solar's wider range of spell-like abilities, including Wish 1/day. Totally not problematic...

The question: when do more spell slots and class features start to outweigh that giant heap of spell-likes and racial abilities? I'm inclined towards a LA of +2, which would put the solar 4 levels behind a cleric in terms of casting. This might seem harsh, but remember that the cleric only has extra slots, no extra spell levels: even Epic Spellcasting is immediately available to solars.

Next are Animated Objects!

[Flickerdart]

+3 seems a wee bit harsh. Given how wonked Epic's balance is, what exactly is the problem with LA0?

[Inevitability]

+3 seems a wee bit harsh. Given how wonked Epic's balance is, what exactly is the problem with LA0?

The lack of balance in Epic goes both ways: both a solar and a cleric of equivalent level have 9th-level spells and epic spells, both are incredibly powerful, but the solar has tons of SLA's and other bonuses where the cleric has none.

Still, I guess you have a good point. LA reduced to +2.

[PoeticDwarf]

So if you have a race with +3LA and 4 racial HD. Is there a way to be this race with basic rules WITHOUT being a level 8+ character? Or is the racial HD slowly and can you enter level 4-7 too? I don't really understand it

[ExLibrisMortis]

So if you have a race with +3LA and 4 racial HD. Is there a way to be this race with basic rules WITHOUT being a level 8+ character? Or is the racial HD slowly and can you enter level 4-7 too? I don't really understand it
You should have a look at this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook). To answer your question: you can homebrew a monster class, which would allow you to play your monster from level 1. However, this sort of question doesn't really belong in this thread.

Somewhat more on topic: I'm looking forward to animated objects. I presume they're going to be awakened first?

[Honest Tiefling]

Finally, please enjoy this fun aboleth fact: all but one of their psionic abilities are from the bard list and aboleths have more charisma than intelligence. Therefore, an aboleth bard makes far more sense than the sample aboleth wizard they give us.

You have now convinced me to play an Aboleth bard who sings about how things are better under the sea as it uses its slime to force people to stay underwater.

[Inevitability]

Animated Objects

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG13.jpg

Animated objects are tricky to figure out for several reasons.

1. They're mindless. For the purpose of the given LA's, I'll be assuming they somehow got an intelligence score.
2. They're very diverse. A glass orb is going to be far less powerful than a riverine handkerchief, even if both are tiny animated objects. I'll be 'fixing' this issue by assuming two default animated objects.

The first object is long, made out of iron, has the Improved Speed (wheels) trait, and will from here on be called the 'Wagon'. The second object is long, made out of cloth, has a fly speed, has the Blind and Constrict traits, and will from here on be called the 'Carpet'. I am aware these fail to cover the wide variety of objects that can exist, but I don't see a more elegant way to handle this.

With that being said, on to the objects!



Tiny

The Wagon is kind of weak here. It may be fast and hard, but offensively you will be deadly negligible damage. With small-size being so much better for you, I'd feel bad assigning any LA here.
The Carpet isn't much better off, either. When you have racial features that encourage grappling, you don't want to be tiny. Without the hardness the Wagon possesses, you'll be destroyed the first time you encounter a monster with ranged attacks or flight, and even if you can move safely at range: what will you do from there? A LA doesn't seem necessary here, to be honest.

Wagon LA: +0, Carpet LA: +0.


Small

The Wagon has definitely improved a lot. Your AC remains about the same, but your melee abilities improve, and you get extra HP. Not to mention that both your strength and natural weapon increase in power. In my opinion, this pushes the object into LA territory.
The Carpet has gotten slightly stronger, too. That is, you can now barely outgrapple a halfling commoner. No LA increase is required, IMO.

Wagon LA: +1, Carpet LA: +0.


Medium

More HP, more strength, and more slam damage are about offset by the RHD you gain. No LA change for the Wagon.
The Carpet can now grapple as well as a town guard, except any decent melee build could just kill the guard the normal way, and wouldn't have to take two weak RHD on doing so.

Wagon LA: +1, Carpet LA: +0.


Large

Here's where the RHD start to hurt. Even without LA, class levels just get too important. The Wagon's LA is lowered to -0; and so is the carpet's.

Wagon LA: -0, Carpet LA: -0.


Huge

8 HD just aren't worth the abilities this grants you.

Wagon LA: -0, Carpet LA: -0.


Gargantuan

By this level, wizards are about to become literal gods, warblades can create earthquakes by punching the ground, even samurai have their uses in intimidating about anything into submission. You? You're either are whale-sized cart that can bash someone once per round, or a whale-sized piece of cloth that may be able to fly fast enough to reach its target before the encounter ends.

Wagon LA: -0, Carpet LA: -0.


Colossal

I sure am glad I chose these 32 RHD over 32 actually useful class levels! Being a useless, emotionless piece of cloth has made my game so much fun! /sarcasm.

Wagon LA: -0, Carpet LA: -0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What LA are you referring to? The animated objects in my Monster Manual have none, and you're not mentioning any specific numbers in your post, just 'none' and 'LA territory' and 'two useless LA'. I may be missing something, of course, it's getting late.

In any case, I'd say that between the +2 str/con --/-10 wisdom/-10 charisma, three bad saves, bad base attack, and lack of class features, a medium wagon is still weaker than a level 2 barbarian who invested in speed (maybe barbarian 1/crusader 1, if you want to emulate the hardness). Yes, 10 hardness helps (if you're an armoured wagon), but that just makes you a good courier. No LA is required.

[Inevitability]

What LA are you referring to? The animated objects in my Monster Manual have none, and you're not mentioning any specific numbers in your post, just 'none' and 'LA territory' and 'two useless LA'. I may be missing something, of course, it's getting late.

In any case, I'd say that between the +2 str/con --/-10 wisdom/-10 charisma, three bad saves, bad base attack, and lack of class features, a medium wagon is still weaker than a level 2 barbarian who invested in speed (maybe barbarian 1/crusader 1, if you want to emulate the hardness). Yes, 10 hardness helps (if you're an armoured wagon), but that just makes you a good courier. No LA is required.

I edited the post to make the LA clearer.

However, I'm still not sure about changing the medium wagon's LA. Let's compare a half-orc barbarian 3 to a medium wagon barbarian 1. The half-orc has 1 more BAB, a bigger weapon, uncanny dodge and trap sense +1. The wagon has more AC, hardness 10, more HP, a huge number of immunities, and higher speed.

The half-orc is stronger offensively, that I admit, but the wagon is incredibly tough. Especially when you start adding crusader levels (like you mentioned), the various stances that encourage people to attack you (Defensive Rebuke, Iron Guard's Glare) will be much more effective on the wagon. No LA change for now.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Thanks for clearing up the LA, mostly zeroes as I thought, but just in case.

I'm wondering what negative LA you would assign, to the gargantuan and colossal objects especially. High HD and negative LA is an early entry dream, of course, but it's pretty much required to compensate for 32 construct HD without class features. I'd say at least -11 LA for the colossal object, keeping it epic, but only just.

[atemu1234]

Planetar

http://www.orcpub.com/images/monsters/planetar.jpg

The planetar, infamous for getting 17th-level cleric casting and a bunch of other goodies at CR 16. Apparently the low HD was supposed to balance it out?

This casting makes rating them quite difficult, though, and my eventual decision surprised even myself. In hopes of making it understandable, I'll evaluate possible LA's one by one.

+0, +1, and +2 LA all have the same problem; they allow epic spellcasting by ECL 20, so they're out. +3 LA removes all differences between a planetar and an equally-leveled cleric's casting, but the cleric doesn't have the additional perks of being an angel. A monster being stronger than a tier 1 class is a pretty clear indication its LA is too low.

+4 LA, then? It'd place a planetar one level behind a cleric when it comes to casting. However, once you get 9th-level spells, all more caster levels do is give you additional slots, while the planetar still has its regeneration, spell-likes, SR, etc.

Remaining level adjustments: +5 and +6. I actually think both could fit, and the only reason I pick +5 is my dislike of characters without any class levels.

I'd argue that +4 makes sense; it'll at least function. ECL Monsters should be a little behind the curve for ECL playable races; the monsters will eventually improve and hopefully be on track later on, but they start out worse.

[Inevitability]

I'd argue that +4 makes sense; it'll at least function. ECL Monsters should be a little behind the curve for ECL playable races; the monsters will eventually improve and hopefully be on track later on, but they start out worse.

The point is that an ECL 18 planetar isn't 'a little behind the curve', it's as strong as, if not stronger than, an 18th-level cleric. ECL 19 is what I'd call 'a little behind the curve'.


I'm wondering what negative LA you would assign, to the gargantuan and colossal objects especially. High HD and negative LA is an early entry dream, of course, but it's pretty much required to compensate for 32 construct HD without class features. I'd say at least -11 LA for the colossal object, keeping it epic, but only just.

I'm not sure if I'll be assigning negative LA. The problem with it is that unless all negative LA keeps ECL's post-epic, you'll end up with characters who can access epic feats sooner than their fellow adventurers. I'm not sure if that's something I want to encourage.

Yes, it'll make high-HD monsters almost impossible to play, but they'll be that either way.

[khadgar567]

Angel, Astral Deva

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sigil-city-of-doors-nwn2-persistent-world/images/e/ec/A2217937d38fe63b7a4740c651ad27c9.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151128051152

The astral deva is the first monster I evaluate that already has a LA. Said LA is so high that it brings back the problem of giant health gaps between party members, which is usually only an issue at low levels. Said LA is so high, that by the time you can finally play an astral deva, the party's wizard has been binding them for nine levels and shapechanging into them for three. Said LA is so high, a commoner of equivalent level could duplicate most of their abilities with WBL only.

Level adjustment notwithstanding, astral devas are a strong race. +8 or higher bonuses to all ability scores, high speed, high natural armor, damage reduction, energy immunities, spell resistance (high enough to remain relevant even at 20th-level), permanent Magic Circle against Evil and Tongues, shapechanging, uncanny dodge, and more spell-like abilities than you shake a +3 heavy mace of disruption at.

So what level should it become playable? Devas are offensively behind dedicated melee builds, though they try to make up for it with a fair deal of casting. The defensive abilities won't be heavily factored in, because being good at not dying isn't great if you fail to establish yourself as a target (just ask monks) and again, spell resistance will make you resist beneficial spells while offensive spells can just be directed at different targets.

In the end, it is obvious that despite their big numbers, devas simply fail to pick a niche and fill it well. They definitely aren't useless, having a wide range of abilities, but they lack the strength a focused PC build possesses when doing its chosen job. I put their LA at +2.
okay if this cr14 guy gets la +2 then what la succubus gets from cr perspective it says la +1 but like to see your reason

[Inevitability]

Ankheg

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG15.jpg

Ever went on a picnic and got attacked by fire ants? I refuse to believe ankhegs were inspired by anything else than that experience. They're giant, insectoid monsters that burrow up, bite, and then spit acid into your wounds. Lovely.

Three RHD, but they're magical beast type, so that's something. Ankhegs also have a huge strength bonus, large size, a very nice natural weapon and a sizable constitution bonus, as well as an enormous natural armor bonus. Oh, and they also have a burrow speed (that can be used to dig tunnels) and tremorsense.

On the other hand, they lack those (see what I did there?) so wielding weapons is going to be a problem for them and intellectually they're on par with toads.

To determine a good LA, let's do some comparing. On one side, we have a half-ogre with three levels of a full BAB class wielding a greatsword, on the other an ankheg. The half-ogre is dealing 3d6+16 points of damage at +6 to hit, the ankheg is dealing 2d6+16+1d4 at +9 to hit. The half-ogre hits slightly harder and crits somewhat more often. The ankheg will probably have higher AC and can burrow, the half-ogre has his class features. IMO, this is about even, so the ankheg gets +2 LA (man, I give a lot of monsters +2 LA: I should switch things up).

[Inevitability]

Aranea

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG16.jpg

The aranea, first in a long line of 'arachnids with a twist'. In this case, the twist is the aranea's shapechanging abilities and sorcerer casting. Somewhat surprisingly, they aren't evil but true neutral, despite their habit of kidnapping people and asking ransom.

Araneas have bonuses to all stats but strength and innate sorcerer casting, making that class an obvious fit. They have some pretty interesting other abilities too, such as the power to throw webs that completely prevent movement (whereas a regular spider's only entangles the target) or attack with a poisonous bite. Really, everything about this just screams 'GISH!' to me.

So an aranea is equal to a gishy sorcerer of what level? I'm inclined towards a +2 LA (so much for shaking things up), especially considering the Magical Beast HD it gets are far nicer than regular sorcerer HD.

+2 LA for now, unless the hivemind disagrees.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, I think +2 is just a really good LA, for two reasons.

Cadence: Two levels behind means you're missing out on a spell level, +1d6 SA/EB/whatever, a fighter feat, etc. Many if not most scaling abilities in 3.5 improve every other level. The value of the LA never changes (unlike LA+1 where you're sometimes on par and sometimes not).

Buy-off at the right time: A +2 LA creature can be LA-free at level 9. You may also recognize that as the level that 5th level spells appear and magic flips from "really good" to "planar binding and dominate person." It seems only fair that you should stop being punished for not playing a wizard right at the moment when wizards get a huge power boost.

Also, most of the game's monsters are low-level ones, meaning that higher LA isn't worth it for the abilities you get. For every planetar, there's a dozen CR 1/2 badgerfolk warriors.

[Inevitability]

Archon, Lantern

http://071bc3d04e2671665c74-5a267f839fbe60d0845a37698418bb02.r26.cf5.rackcdn.c om/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/fairy-artwork-zelda-ocarina-of-time.jpg

Jowgen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473413-Abusing-quot-Create-Lantern-Archon-quot-spell-(for-world-domination-)) has already gone into most of what these balls of holy light can do in detail, but his most important points I'll repeat here.

Lantern Archons are 1 HD celestials with various interesting abilities, including (but not limited to) the creation of everlasting magical fire, the granting of temporary HP, flight, the capacity to shoot rays of searing light, and the ability to teleport to any point on the same plane with perfect accuracy at-will as a standard action.

Not bad at all. The lack of positive stat boosts (combined with the strength and intelligence penalties) hurt, but still. I actually find all these abilities worth +3 LA, making a lantern archon an ECL 4 creature.

Now, this may seem like a lot, and I can already imagine some people worrying about your HP. Rest assured, there's nothing wrong with your survivability. Imagine a lantern archon with 13 constitution. It'll have only 8+1 HP, but it will also be walking floating around with 11 temporary HP most of the time, so it might be more accurate to consider it as 20 HP. A 4th-level rogue with 13 constitution will have 6+1+3.5x3+3=20 HP as well, and the rogue lacks damage reduction, protective auras, or flight.

So defensively you won't fall short. How about offensively? A 4th-level warlock can deal 2d6 points of damage with Eldritch Blast, a lantern archon can make two light ray attacks that deal 1d6 points of damage each. The warlock can apply various invocations, but the barebones ability is about equal. A similar case would be a caster with Acidic Splatter, also capable of dealing 2d6 points of damage at-will.

Finally, will the lantern archon be able to keep up as the party increases in levels? Most likely it will. Rogue, or a similar precision-based class will benefit from the two free natural attacks (remember, low strength doesn't necessarily prevent you from wielding weapons), and a caster will benefit from the flight and can still reach 8th-level spells (or 9th-level spells with LA buyoff).

Final verdict: +3 LA.

[Inevitability]

Archon, Hound

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/8/85/Hound_Archon.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110621182243

Who's a [Good] boy? That's right, it's the hound archon! This canine big brother of the lantern archon, hound archons are more 'traditional' celestials. How can we improve their current LA of +5?

Despite one being a human-sized dog-headed warrior and the other a ray-shooting ball of light, hound archons are surprisingly similar to lantern archons. The spell-like abilities mostly overlap, as do their archon traits.

So what's different? The hound can turn into any wolflike animal (Legendary Wolf is probably the nicest), has two natural weapons, modest ability boosts, natural armor, and spell resistance. How much is that worth over the lantern archon?

My gut feeling says +1 LA, if only because from 7th-level on the party's cleric will be able to call hound archons himself, but I'm not completely sure.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, +1 seems fair. The archon gets to gloat about his teleportation power for two whole levels before the wizard has teleport himself.

However, the lantern archon doesn't deserve +3 LA, I think. It's most comparable to Petals (MM3) who have LA +2. Petals don't have teleport and have weaker DR, but they have amazing ability scores so it's a bit of a wash (and at higher levels, the Petal pulls way ahead since SLAs don't make you special anymore).

[Troacctid]

Yeah, +1 seems fair. The archon gets to gloat about his teleportation power for two whole levels before the wizard has teleport himself.

However, the lantern archon doesn't deserve +3 LA, I think. It's most comparable to Petals (MM3) who have LA +2. Petals don't have teleport and have weaker DR, but they have amazing ability scores so it's a bit of a wash (and at higher levels, the Petal pulls way ahead since SLAs don't make you special anymore).
Archon teleportation is Greater Teleport at will as a supernatural ability. That's going to be better than the Wizard's for quite a bit longer than two levels.

I don't think you can put the LA any lower on lantern archons without removing the teleport ability. It is very powerful.

[Inevitability]

Archon teleportation is Greater Teleport at will as a supernatural ability. That's going to be better than the Wizard's for quite a bit longer than two levels.

This is true. However, from 7th-level on, teleportation gets less reliable as spells like Dimensional Anchor become available. Sure, you may be able to 'port into the BBEG's sanctum and grab his artifact of doom, but leaving may be an issue.


I don't think you can put the LA any lower on lantern archons without removing the teleport ability. It is very powerful.

I agree. Think of your typical D&D adventure, now think of it while one of the PC's can teleport anywhere with 100% reliability, at-will.

[Flickerdart]

I agree. Think of your typical D&D adventure, now think of it while one of the PC's can teleport anywhere with 100% reliability, at-will.
Don't you know you never split the party (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa2ucfgVgQ)?

[Inevitability]

Archon, Trumpet

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c9/59/ce/c959ce008e2c26138fa571838700647a.jpg

Trumpet archons are surpringly similar to planetars. They're under-CR'ed celestials with innate cleric casting, with the planetar being the obviously stronger one. Trumpet Archons have a preset LA of +8, but that would put it six levels behind a single-classed cleric with no way to catch up.

For some weird reason, trumpet archons lack their lesser brethren's Aid spell-like ability. I know they can cast it as a cleric spell if necessary, but it's kind of weird a lantern archon is better at granting people temporary HP than the far more powerful trumpet archon. The spell-likes it does have are getting obsolete by now, though.

The ability granted by their trumpet is interesting and can potentially stunlock an entire encounter, but the saving throw DC is low and I find myself wondering why one doesn't just cast a few deliberating spells. Similarly, a +4 greatsword isn't that useful if you can just buy one (with actually useful enchantments instead of a flat +4 bonus) for one-fifth of your WBL

All things considered, the trumpet archon is a celestial powerful because of its cleric casting and racial abilities, but lacking the planetar's big guns. A +4 LA seems most appropriate, though I'm considering +3 LA. As always, your opinion is valued!

[Inevitability]

Arrowhawk

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG20a.jpg

Arrowhawks: does anyone remember ever using or encountering them? I don't blame you: there's much better Plane of Air encounters than a lightning-shooting four-winged bird.

What can an Arrowhawk do? It is able to fire lightning once per round (about equal to Acidic Splatter), is immune to lightning, acid, and poison resistant to fire and cold, has natural armor, various ability score bonuses, perfect flight speed, a natural bite attack, and the excellent outsider type that makes its 3 RHD much better.

Of course, a strong base creature isn't enough: it needs to remain relevant at higher levels. Fortunately, the arrowhawk is able to do so. A roguish build will appreciate the high skill points and ability bonuses, not to mention the fly speed, and I can definitely see one stacking up to a 4th-level rogue. Final LA: +1.

There's also the adult (7 HD) and elder (15 HD) arrowhawks, but they're so incredibly similar that I'm not going to evaluate them thoroughly. -0 LA is the only fair option.

[AnimeTheCat]

Hmm... I almost feel that a LA+1 is a little too generous. I mean, you're getting 3 immunities, 2 resistances, natural armor, a fly speed, a supernatural ability that you can use every round, and stat bonuses on top of all that. Granted, it does have that 3d6 racial HD, but I feel doubtful that a 4th level rogue could stand toe to toe with it. I would feel more confident saying it deserves a +2 or more LA. I mean... Look at those defenses it gets lol. But that's simply my opinion. :smallbiggrin: I'm really loving this whole thread.

[Inevitability]

Hmm... I almost feel that a LA+1 is a little too generous. I mean, you're getting 3 immunities, 2 resistances, natural armor, a fly speed, a supernatural ability that you can use every round, and stat bonuses on top of all that. Granted, it does have that 3d6 racial HD, but I feel doubtful that a 4th level rogue could stand toe to toe with it. I would feel more confident saying it deserves a +2 or more LA. I mean... Look at those defenses it gets lol. But that's simply my opinion. :smallbiggrin: I'm really loving this whole thread.

I considered +2 LA, but doubt its necessity. The arrowhawk might be more defensive, but a 4th-level human rogue is dealing much more damage. (3d6+6 as opposed to 2d6), and I personally value damage over defense. Here's why:

The problem is that the arrowhawk doesn't really provide enemies with a reason to attack him. Their damage output equals that of a poor blaster (except without any nova potential), so they're not a big enough threat to warrant immediate death, so any reasonably smart enemy will be targeting the arrowhawk's allies instead: making the net damage its team receives very similar to that of the human rogue's team. It's the same problem monks have.

On natural armor, flight, energy resistances and things like that: casters will be getting those at 5th-level. I'm not even talking about wizards and clerics: a 'lowly' duskblade or beguiler can duplicate most of it.

[Inevitability]

Assassin Vine

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG20b.jpg

This is one of those monsters that sounds interesting at first, but turns out to be yet another example of a well-known trope. The assassin vine is no exception. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManEatingPlant)

On the one hand, it's pretty good at locking people down. High strength, high constitution, large size, improved grab, the ability to create an Entangle effect all around you, and 20 ft. of reach. Sounds great? Well, here's the downside: you have a move rate of five feet. That's right, an elderly gnome with a leg injury will still easily outpace you.

Even if you find a way to move around the battlefield, there's still the problem of you being a freaking plant. Armor will have to be tailor-made (I'm imagining some kind of chainmail sleeve), most magic items can't be used by you, and even Gloves of Man won't help you out, as you lack tentacles or paws. You have a single natural attack that's honestly pretty poor, but getting anything else will require heavy resource investment.

On the racial HD: those could be worse. The poor chassis is somewhat compensated for by the immunities you get, but if you really care about immunities, why not go warforged or necropolitian?

In the end, I think LA +0 is best here. Being unable to use most magic items in a game where they are more-or-less mandatory (especially for martials) is bad enough, but the fact that you're as fast as a beached mermaid kills most AV characters. Having to rely on the DM putting monsters within 30 feet of you isn't a viable tactic for any character. Don't get me wrong: someone can make this work, but they don't deserve a LA on top of their obvious problems.

[AnimeTheCat]

Assassin Vine

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG20b.jpg

This is one of those monsters that sounds interesting at first, but turns out to be yet another example of a well-known trope. The assassin vine is no exception. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManEatingPlant)

On the one hand, it's pretty good at locking people down. High strength, high constitution, large size, improved grab, the ability to create an Entangle effect all around you, and 20 ft. of reach. Sounds great? Well, here's the downside: you have a move rate of five feet. That's right, an elderly gnome with a leg injury will still easily outpace you.

Even if you find a way to move around the battlefield, there's still the problem of you being a freaking plant. Armor will have to be tailor-made, most magic items can't be used by you, and even Gloves of Man won't help you out, as you lack tentacles or paws. You have a single natural attack that's honestly pretty poor, but getting anything else will require heavy resource investment.

On the racial HD: those could be worse. The poor chassis is somewhat compensated for by the immunities you get, but if you really care about immunities, why not go warforged or necropolitian?

In the end, I think LA +0 is best here. Being unable to use most magic items in a game where they are more-or-less mandatory (especially for martials) is bad enough, but the fact that you're as fast as a beached mermaid kills most AV characters. Having to rely on the DM putting monsters within 30 feet of you isn't a viable tactic for any character. Don't get me wrong: someone can make this work, but they don't deserve a LA on top of their obvious problems.

Possible LA-1 territory?! :smalltongue: In all seriousness, I'm guessing the Assassin Vine was never in a million years intended to be a PC, but LA +0 is about as fair as you're going to get. You would have to be pushed around in a wagon by your party to be able to do anything lol. I concur. I could see this working if you were a wizard and could make yourself fly. Now you're a flying tentacle monster??? that sounds kinda... ok I was gonna say scary but it sounds hilarious.

[Inevitability]

Possible LA-1 territory?! :smalltongue: In all seriousness, I'm guessing the Assassin Vine was never in a million years intended to be a PC, but LA +0 is about as fair as you're going to get. You would have to be pushed around in a wagon by your party to be able to do anything lol. I concur. I could see this working if you were a wizard and could make yourself fly. Now you're a flying tentacle monster??? that sounds kinda... ok I was gonna say scary but it sounds hilarious.

I could see someone making a Horizon Tripper build, which would grant you the ability to teleport hundreds of feet every 1d4 rounds at ECL 11. A less elegant solution would be to just buy a bunch of mules: 5 to 20 should be able to carry you without any of them becoming heavily encumbered.

And I'm sorry, but the position of flying tentacle monster (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/p__/images/7/78/Flumph.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150726215931&path-prefix=protagonist) has already been filled.

[Flickerdart]

A DM once threw the assassin vine at the party - it would grapple trees and stuff, pull itself into their space, then release on the next round and grapple something else. Hardly RAW, but it was entertaining.

[Inevitability]

Athach

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG21.jpg

Because obviously the game needed three-armed giants with poisonous saliva and penis-like toes (have fun unseeing that one) wearing one of the most ridiculous 'garments' ever. Current LA is +5.

They have fourteen RHD. Those are of the Aberration type; meaning you're stuck with fourteen horrible levels. What do you get in return? Mostly ability score improvements, huge size, and a bite attack. Oh, and you have three arms.

I find myself wondering what to use the extra arm for, though. Triple-wielding is bad for the same reasons dual-wielding is and using a shield without having to hold it in your hand is ridiculously easy. Even Fuse Arms won't work: it only affects creatures with an even number of limbs.

In the end, you're sacrificing fourteen levels of your build to gain a boring pile of strength, size, and weirdly placed limbs that will only barely reach +16 BAB. I'm having trouble seeing how that is worth it, and I'm definitely not going to add a LA to all that.

Final verdict: -0 LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can use your third arm to add 1⁄2 strength modifier to damage with specially-made weapons, as per Savage Species. For example, a custom three-handed sword would get 2x strength modifier on damage rolls. Won't change the LA, obviously, but it's something...

[Inevitability]

Azer

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG22a.jpg

Fire dwarves. How nice. Azer possess decent stat boosts, two outsider HD, a natural armor bonus, the fire subtype, spell resistance and a minor heat ability. That's not bad, but not worth the +4 LA it's currently assigned either.

Azer casters don't have much going for them: sacrificing two RHD for a small bonus to your casting stat is a bad deal. As a result, I'll be assuming you go melee.

Compared to a 3rd-level orc barbarian, the azer has less HP, to-hit, and damage, but has superior AC, saves, and SR, as well as better dexterity, constitution, intelligence and wisdom.

I know I voiced my dislike of defensive abilities compared to offensive ones just a few days ago, but in this case I find +1 LA appropriate. As always, please voice any disagreements.

[Inevitability]

Barghest

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG22b.jpg

The barghest, best known for its ability to eat souls to gain more HD. It should be obvious that any DM planning on allowing Barghests should impose some kind of restriction on this: I myself recommend using the Feed ability as an alternate form of advancement, with the barghest being able to add another RHD (leading to eventual development into a greater barghest) on levelup rather than a class level presumed it has consumed an appropriate number of souls. That said, it's worth an asterisk in my opinion.

Why play a barghest? Well, they have six outsider HD, good stats all around, a few (admittantly weak) natural attacks, DR, scent, darkvision, spell-like abilities and the power to change shape.

The shapechanging is fairly unimpressive: being a wolf is only useful for traveling and tripping, and turning into a goblin will lower both weapon damage and size modifiers, making melee combat far less interesting.

The spell-likes scale with your HD, but are otherwise not great. Blink is perhaps most interesting, but it requires you to spend an action every few rounds and harms you too, and Misdirection and Rage have been available to casters for so long now it's not even funny anymore. The 1/day abilities are better, but not exactly beyond an equally-levelled caster's reach either.

I find myself wondering what to do with a barghest, honestly. Melee seems the wisest, and a martial adept can still reach 8th-level maneuvers, but the racial abilities don't synergize so well. I guess one could make this work, but can't help but think of any barghest character as a misshapen combination of a caster with poor spells and a fighter.

Still, I can't help but see the creature's potential. +1* LA seems just appropriate, if only because of the relative strength of outsider HD.


Barghest, Greater

Basically a barghest with bigger numbers. It can assume a Large goblinoid form (ask your DM what the exact stats are), which should allow you to wield weapons... except by then you might as well play a half-ogre or goliath. The higher ability scores and larger number of spell-likes are decent, but again: they're just bigger numbers.

Is the LA still warranted here? I'm not sure: most of your tricks can be duplicated rather easily by now: even Barghest's Feast is only two levels away. +0* LA it is.

[Inevitability]

Basilisk

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG23.jpg

The basilisk: one of the trickier creatures to balance. It's got six magical beast HD (above average as far as RHD go), but its ability scores are hilariously low, it is slow, its only natural weapon is a weak bite attack, and it's medium-sized. A 6th-level human fighter will be better at melee combat than a basilisk.

Of course, I didn't mention the eight-legged lizard's main appeal: its petrifying gaze. Anyone who looks at a basilisk has a chance of turning to stone. It doesn't even take an action, though you can spend one to repeat the attack, if desired.

On the one hand, being able to spam a save-or-kinda-die-but-not-quite that very few creatures (constructs, deathless, undead, and some celestials) are immune to every turn is cool, and the saving throw DC will be decent, despite a basilisk's lack of charisma. On the other hand, friendly fire is inevitable, and you don't want to accidentally petrify your entire party then die to a handful of grimlocks.

Finally, it is important to remember that while turning an enemy to stone is flashy, it's essentially no different from landing a boosted charge and OHKO'ing the foe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but in the end both remove foes from the battlefield. Petrification is strong, but so is a mid-level orc barbarian with the right feats.

With all this in mind, I consider the basilisk a creature that's barely too strong to lack a LA altogether, but is more-or-less appropriate with +1 LA. DM's are advised to exercise caution when allowing this race, though.


Basilisk, Abyssal Greater

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG24.jpg

As is so often the case with high-HD low-CR monsters, this one just fails to stack up to a PC of equal level. -0 LA: if you want to play this ask yourself if a normal basilisk won't do.

[Fizban]

I've always assumed that all petrification attacks transformed gear along with the target (as Flesh to Stone does), which a a significant downside. I don't actually see this note under the Petrified condition though. Anyone have a source or FAQ about it?

[Inevitability]

Behir

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG25.jpg

Behirs are long, lightning-spewing snakelike creatures that eat people alive and hate dragons. Their intelligence is subhuman, but they're still smarter than mindless predators and can even speak common.

Obviously, a behir has got good melee potential. RHD that grant full BAB and a ten-sided hit die, Huge size, great strength and constitution, reach, 40 ft. movement, natural armor, and a bunch of grappling abilities.

Also of note is the breath weapon. It deals some (7d6) damage and can be enhanced with metabreath feats, making it a reasonable use of your action if you can't reach your foe for whatever reason.

The final question remains: what LA is appropriate here? I'm inclined to +2 LA myself. Not only is +2 a decent rule of thumb IMO, it also allows behirs to get 7th-level maneuvers should they enter a ToB class.


Next time: the monster you've all been waiting for! The sphere of many eyes! The eye tyrant! The annihilator of adventurers! That's right: the beholder!

[ImSAMazing]

I am so excited for the beholder (s)!

[PraxisVetli]

I am so excited for the beholder (s)!

Unholy Asmodeus the suspense is intense!
I swear I check this thread 10 times a day waiting for beholders!

[Inevitability]

Beholder, Gauth

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/ed/b8/30edb8cda9d87fa20176b0abc17f4f98.jpg

Gauths are the beholders' lesser (and much freakier looking) cousins, armed with a plethora of special abilities. They also seem incredibly fun to play to me. Let's take a look at them, shall we?

Despite the great similarities, gauths are not true beholders and as such can't benefit from most of the support LoM gave beholders (this includes Beholder Mage). Still, certain feats *cough*Metaray*cough* remain available.

To put it simply: a gauth's natural abilities are strong. Your eye rays alone allow you to deal direct damage (Inflict Moderate Wounds, Scorching Ray), strip away magical effects (Dispel Magic), debuff foes (Ray of Exhaustion) or even force save-or-loses (Sleep, Paralysis). And that's before taking into account your high ability scores, stunning gaze, nonmagical flight, bonus feat, all-around vision, and natural armor. Your versatility is surprisingly large for a non-spellcasting monster.

Also good to remember is that your two primary offensive abilities (eye rays and stunning gaze) can both be used as free actions. This means you can spend your entire turn moving, re-targetting someone with your gaze, or using whatever class features you pick up later on while still being able to employ your natural abilities. That's awesome.

So now that we've established that gauths are pretty good an sich, how do they compare to other classes when class levels get added? Surprisingly good for a race with no advanceable abilities.

You see, something like a hag gains several useful spell-like abilities as part of her race. At higher levels, however, these abilities will have lost most of their uses, or will have become available as magic items. This makes most level-adjusted races far less useful at higher levels.

The gauth, however, can use his racial abilities together with whatever he learned from his class levels, because these racial abilities don't use up actions. A gauth wizard can unleash a handful of save-or-sucks a turn. A gauth rogue can fire sneak attack-enhanced rays while hurling a +1 returning mouthpick dagger. A gauth cleric can heal his undead hordes while buffing himself and blasting his foes. Where another race would only give more options, a gauth adds those options to your conventional turn.

So what LA is appropriate here? Call me crazy, but I'm going for +4. A higher LA may even be warranted, but I didn't want to turn gauths into complete glass cannons.

Casting two save-or-loses a round, at will, is a powerful ability that shouldn't be underestimated. A 10th-level wizard may be able to pull off something similar a few times per day, by combining something like a Quickened Seething Eyebane and Slay Living. Both this combo and the gauth's rays are effective against most creatures, and the save DC's will be about equal. The wizard has more versatility, the gauth can use the combo at-will and can use other actions in conjuction with the rays, which seems about even.

Finally, allow me to suggest taking dragonfire adept levels. Your breath weapon will be an excellent way to make use of your actions, you have constitution and charisma synergy, and most of all you'll be a firebreathing sphere of doom.

[PraxisVetli]

Finally, allow me to suggest taking dragonfire adept levels. Your breath weapon will be an excellent way to make use of your actions, you have constitution and charisma synergy, and most of all you'll be a firebreathing sphere of doom.

You're a madman.
It's beautiful!

[Inevitability]

You're a madman.
It's beautiful!

Thank you, good sir.

Beholder will probably be uploaded later today!

[Inevitability]

Beholder

http://www.gemmaline.com/bestiaire/beholder.png

The beholder: perhaps D&D's most iconic monster. Also a nightmare to balance.

The basic chassis is surprisingly weak for a CR 13 monster. Decent but not great ability scores that fail to include one specific focus, a slow fly speed, some natural armor, and eleven wonderful aberration RHD (aren't we happy?).

Then again, you don't play beholders for the stats, you play them for the ability to cause petrifying, disintegrating, and necrotizing death at 100 feet. And let's be honest: the beholder is very good at that. Your eye rays include save-or-dies, charms, direct damage, control, some out-of-combat abilities... A well-rounded set of powers all around.

Less interesting is the beholder's antimagic cone. If used at range, all it does is take both you and your foe out of the battle, and if used in melee the weird shape allows people to just walk around you and stab you.

A problem I ran into was beholder support. At-will disjunction for two feats or a prestige class whose name has become a synonym for brokenness are nothing to scoff at, and I can't help but wonder if there is a way to actually balance this.

In the end, I think I'm going with ECL 15 here. You sacrifice most of your build, get much in return, and (hopefully) end up with a balanced character.

As always, your feedback is requested.

[Caelestion]

Perhaps the late 3.5 write-up that Mike Mearls did for the beholder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a), making it easier to run, would allow for a different ECL?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would be really unhappy to play an ECL 15 character with 11 abberation HD. On the other hand, eye rays! At-will disintegrate alone is nearly campaign-breaking for its multitool abilties (more in the physical than the narrative sense, maybe). There's a feat that lets you sculpt with it, too, I believe.

15 seems fair. You don't want to be able to buy off any of that LA until the beholder is no longer at an action advantage, which is going to be a long, long way past level 20.

[Inevitability]

Perhaps the late 3.5 write-up that Mike Mearls did for the beholder (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20061028a), making it easier to run, would allow for a different ECL?

Seems to me like it'd definitely affect the LA. Disintegrate twice a turn can be strong, but no more than a few well-aimed SoD's. The change to Antimagic Eye makes it finally useful, but I can't help but wonder how often your victim can't just walk out of the area.

I'd probably put it at +3 LA. You lose some major offensive ability, but you're still a beholder. This is definitely not an in-depth assessment, though.

[Inevitability]

Belker

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/inglipnomicon/images/0/0a/The_Belkers.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110301181124

Belkers another of those monsters few people know about, and fewer even use. They're evil clouds of smoke that kill people by being inhaled, then attacking someone from the inside. Flavorful, yes, but not good PC material.

Firstly, the seven RHD. Elemental-type, and a bad kind of elemental to boot. The class skill list is horrifyingly small (though at least somewhat usable). Seriously though, seven RHD that do almost nothing for you aren't a good starting point.

The other chassis abilities (flight, natural armor, ability scores, size) are nice, but don't match up that well. If you're Large, you are typically going to be a strength-based meleeer, but the Belker only has 14 strength. Similarly, dexterity-based melee typically wants to be medium or smaller.

A belker can turn gaseous for twenty rounds per day: too bad casters got that ability at ECL 5 already. It can also make people inhale it, then attack them from within, but it's a situational ability that deals little damage. You'd be better off just attacking people with your five natural weapons... but there are PC's who do such a thing better.

All things considered, -0 LA works fine.

[Thurbane]

Can a Belker with, say, Rogue levels, sneak attack from inside a creature with it's natural attacks?

[Inevitability]

Can a Belker with, say, Rogue levels, sneak attack from inside a creature with it's natural attacks?

Fairly sure it can't. There's no attack roll, it just deals 3d4 points of damage per round until the inhaled part is coughed out.

Rogue levels remain a good choice for a belker, though. Five individually weak natural attacks and dexterity go well with precision damage.

[Inevitability]

Blink Dog

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG28a.jpg

Who's a Good b... wait, I did that joke already.

The blink dog is a 4 RHD magical beast. It could've been worse (at least you get full BAB). The base stats are somewhat underwhelming: poor ability scores for a melee creature, a single weak natural attack and a shoddy skill list. Fortunately, the special abilities make more than up for it.

For one, blink dogs get 1/turn Dimension Door as a free action that doesn't prevent them from acting after teleporting. That's huge. That's literally the solution to the two biggest problems of each meleeer: how to reach flying enemies, and how to move and full attack in the same turn?

Secondly, they get a permanent Blink effect. Note, however, that it can be activated and resumed as a free action. This means you can begin your turn, drop the effect, attack without incurring a 20% miss chance, then reactivate the effect to gain the bonuses against incoming attacks. Not as huge as the teleportation, but still useful.

Taking those special abilities into account, I think the blink dog deserves at least +1 LA.

[Inevitability]

Bodak

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG28b.jpg

Does anyone else think these guys look like poorly-designed aliens?

Bodaks have nine undead RHD. That is bad, because it means giving up five BAB or nine levels of casting. The immunities it gives them are nice, but if someone wanted those they could just be a necropolitian.

The bodak's chassis isn't great. Low ability scores, a few energy immunities, and a poor natural weapon. The DR is decent.

And then there's their gaze attack, which is surprisingly useful. Monsters with immunity to Death are much rarer than PC's with immunity to Death, meaning you can essentially force one SoD a round.

But is this really special at that level? Remember, a 10th-level favored soul with Versatile Spellcaster can easily throw around six Slay Livings a day, and the favored soul has other abilities too. The bodak may be able to target multiple people a turn, but the main way of protecting allies from your gaze (Narrowed Gaze) makes that tactic impossible.

And let's not forget that the bodak has little to no advancement options. Spellcasting is out, so are most forms of melee, and little material actively empowers your gaze. Most likely, you'll have a bodak and his class levels with no synergy in between.

Final LA: +0.

[Troacctid]

But is this really special at that level? Remember, a 10th-level sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster can easily throw around six Fingers of Death a day, and the sorcerer has other abilities too. The bodak may be able to target multiple people a turn, but the main way of protecting allies from your gaze (Narrowed Gaze) makes that tactic impossible.
I'll point out that Finger of Death is a standard action, while Death Gaze, as a gaze attack, requires no action. Furthermore, Finger of Death is a 7th level spell, so I don't see how a 10th level sorcerer is getting any of them at all, let alone six per day, Versatile Spellcaster be damned. As for your allies, all they need to do is a. stay more than 30 feet away from you, or b. be immune to it, both of which should be fairly easy to do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's true that the gaze is free, which grants action advantage, but it's barely compensation for the lack of further useful abilities. You can't hide if you want to use your gaze, because your gaze doesn't work if people can't see you, and you don't have the native toughness to go into melee. Your only real option is to become an Ur-Priest or some sort of tricky evasion tank (swordsage/master of nine?).

The most obvious optimization for a bodak's racial abilities is probably bodak 9/lurking terror 1/legacy champion 10, using the Lurking Terror's first-level ability to add your LT class level to your death gaze save DC - up to 23+CHA at level 20 - while getting Hide in Plain Sight as your only useful class feature (which, again, precludes the use of your gaze).

Overall, the LA should be fairly low, and zero is fine for higher-power games (it may be a bit strong next to tier 5s).

[Inevitability]

I'll point out that Finger of Death is a standard action, while Death Gaze, as a gaze attack, requires no action. Furthermore, Finger of Death is a 7th level spell, so I don't see how a 10th level sorcerer is getting any of them at all, let alone six per day, Versatile Spellcaster be damned. As for your allies, all they need to do is a. stay more than 30 feet away from you, or b. be immune to it, both of which should be fairly easy to do.

Aaaaand that was me mixing up FoD and Slay Living. Ah well, the point still stands: just replace 'sorcerer' with 'favored soul'.

Death Gaze indeed requires no action. However, in any kind of practical combat, chances are your allies will be within 30 feet of you. Remember, you have a move rate of 20 feet and a moderate dexterity score: chances are you'll need Narrowed Gaze to not be useless.

You raise a good point on the immunity, though. How about I raise the LA to +1?

[Troacctid]

I actually think +0 is fair, I just disagree with the reasoning. (Although I honestly prefer LA —. Some monsters are just not suited for PCs, and I think a bodak would not result in good gameplay.)

[Flickerdart]

I think Dire_Stirge should allow for LA -- monsters (what LA are we going to give to the blue whale?) but possibly include a small writeup on the minimum changes required to make them playable (and thus LA-able).

[Inevitability]

Part of the fun here is figuring out how to balance creatures previously considered unbalanceable. I don't think I'll ever assign LA's of —, though. If a creature's actual playability is questionable, though, I will suggest only allowing it after careful deliberation.

Still, I don't think all creatures are unplayable in all situations. Your whale example may actually work in an aquatic campaign, for one.

[Inevitability]

Bugbear

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG29.jpg

Fun fact: WotC hates goblinoids. The bugbear and its current +1 LA are a fine example of that.

Bugbears already have 3 humanoid HD, which is about the worst kind of HD one could have. In return for this they get decent ability bonuses, a small skill bonus, scent and natural armor. Pretty much all of these are done better by other creatures. Even the few goblinoid-centric feats aren't a reason to become a bugbear, because they could be just as easily taken by a goblin or hobgoblin.

Bottomline: sometimes you don't need a lengthy explanation to justify your decisions. Bugbears are weak, but giving them -0 LA is all I can do here.

[Caelestion]

Several years back, someone on these forums was promoting SHELA - Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustments. :)

[khadgar567]

Several years back, someone on these forums was promoting SHELA - Society for Hobgoblin Equality in Level Adjustments. :)
isnt it one of the oots villians end goal( cleric one)

[Troacctid]

Why can't you do more than +0 LA? Negative LA is a thing.

[Pippin]

Why can't you do more than +0 LA? Negative LA is a thing.
Is it? Where can we find such monsters? What's the lowest record?

[khadgar567]

Is it? Where can we find such monsters? What's the lowest record?
I gotta bad feeling about the answer

[Flickerdart]

Is it? Where can we find such monsters? What's the lowest record?
In official material, it appears exactly once, as far as I know - Incarnate Construct template grants LA -2.

[khadgar567]

In official material, it appears exactly once, as far as I know - Incarnate Construct template grants LA -2.
shush buddy you gonna wake up optimizers

[Inevitability]

Why can't you do more than +0 LA? Negative LA is a thing.

The problem with negative LA is that things get broken real fast. Let's say the bugbear is given -1 LA, for one.

Someone plays a bugbear (an ECL 2 creature now), and chooses to take levels in cleric. He puts some skill ranks in Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft: nothing too special.

At ECL 19, the PC has 3 bugbear RHD and 17 cleric levels. He takes another level in cleric, gaining his 21st HD (at ECL 20), and takes Epic Spellcasting. Oops.

You could argue this is an example of ES being unbalanced rather than negative LA itself, but there's so much epic feats you'd need to houserule out to balance this situation that I seriously question the viability of negative LA. Even without epic cheese, having more HD than the game expects can lead to some seriously weird situations.


In official material, it appears exactly once, as far as I know - Incarnate Construct template grants LA -2.

There's also a list of monsters in the ELH with a given ECL. While technically no negative LA is directly given, several of the listed creatures have ECL's lower than their HD. The Chichimec, for example, has ECL 23 but 27 HD.

[Flickerdart]

To prevent Epic nonsense, just say that RHD don't count. You need either 21 character levels, or a CR of 21 or higher if you are a monster.

[Inevitability]

To prevent Epic nonsense, just say that RHD don't count. You need either 21 character levels, or a CR of 21 or higher if you are a monster.

Still causes problems. Several prestige classes can now be entered at a significantly lower level, which can result in some seriously broken builds.

Sure, you could rule RHD don't count for meeting prerequisites either, but at that point I recommend just asking your DM to houserule a few of the RHD away. It's easier than taking an already inelegant system and twisting it to do the opposite it was intended to do.

[Inevitability]

Bulette

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG30.jpg

Before I begin, I'd like to share what is perhaps the greatest quote on bulettes ever, found in the 5e Monster Manual:


"A bulette loves halfling meat the most, and is never happier than when chasing plump halflings across an open field."

That's right, imagine one of those things running after a few panicking halflings. Isn't it wonderful?

Bulettes themselves are just another big melee beasty with a few tricks. They've got Huge size, very good ability scores and full BAB hit dice going for them, as well as a couple of pretty neat natural weapons.

Related to this is their Leap ability, which allows them to replace their bite attack with two more claw attacks. Good to have, but made even more awesome by the specific wording only prohibiting bite attacks. A Mouthpick weapon, for one, can still be used together with the claws.

Taking this into account, the bulette is a potent melee combatant that brings some very big numbers to the table. +1 LA seems about right.

[Thurbane]

Before I begin, I'd like to share what is perhaps the greatest quote on bulettes ever, found in the 5e Monster Manual:

Back in the 1E days, a few monsters had Halfling listed as their preferred food, Bulettes was definitely one, and I believe Purple Worm was another.

Oh, and probably may favourite piece of Bulette artwork:

http://i66.tinypic.com/313g5rs.jpg

[MesiDoomstalker]

Back in the 1E days, a few monsters had Halfling listed as their preferred food, Bulettes was definitely one, and I believe Purple Worm was another.

Oh, and probably may favourite piece of Bulette artwork:

http://i66.tinypic.com/313g5rs.jpg


Are... Are those robots? What?

[Thurbane]

Are... Are those robots? What?

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/d20m/20060505a)

...yes, they are robots. :smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

Carrion crawler

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/29/Carrion_crawler_-_David_Griffith.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090519101127

Firstly, I'd like to apologize for not being able to post as much in the past few days. RL is taking up most of my time at the moment.

With that being said, let's take a look at this monster. It's a big aberrant centipede that can paralyze you with its many tentacles.

You're Large, but don't get reach (we're off to a good start). The ability scores are kind of lackluster. Having four scores boosted is good, but often a single high stat is preferable to several decent ones. The RHD are pretty bad, too, unless you really like having a good Will. Climb speed and natural armor: no objections there. Scent, darkvision, a weak natural bite and Alertness as a bonus feat don't really add anything either.

There's one thing I haven't covered yet, though: the crawler's tentacles. It's got eight of them, and each can paralyze for 2d4 rounds on a hit. That's huge. Against a creature that isn't paralysis-immune, you'll probably score at least one paralyzing hit on a full attack. When that happens, you can just re-paralyze them at your leisure while your allies kill it.

While there's a large number of creature types that are immune to paralysis, these often don't become a problem until higher levels. By then, you should either have bought off your LA or patched up your lack of versatility with some creative build choices.

Final verdict: either +1 or +2 LA. Keeping the carrion crawler's relative lack of versatility in mind, I'll go with +1 here.

[khadgar567]

Carrion crawler

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/29/Carrion_crawler_-_David_Griffith.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090519101127

Firstly, I'd like to apologize for not being able to post as much in the past few days. RL is taking up most of my time at the moment.

With that being said, let's take a look at this monster. It's a big aberrant centipede that can paralyze you with its many tentacles.

You're Large, but don't get reach (we're off to a good start). The ability scores are kind of lackluster. Having four scores boosted is good, but often a single high stat is preferable to several decent ones. The RHD are pretty bad, too, unless you really like having a good Will. Climb speed and natural armor: no objections there. Scent, darkvision, a weak natural bite and Alertness as a bonus feat don't really add anything either.

There's one thing I haven't covered yet, though: the crawler's tentacles. It's got eight of them, and each can paralyze for 2d4 rounds on a hit. That's huge. Against a creature that isn't paralysis-immune, you'll probably score at least one paralyzing hit on a full attack. When that happens, you can just re-paralyze them at your leisure while your allies kill it.

While there's a large number of creature types that are immune to paralysis, but these often don't become a problem until higher levels. By then, you should either have bought off your LA or patched up your lack of versatility with some creative build choices.

Final verdict: either +1 or +2 LA. Keeping the carrion crawler's relative lack of versatility in mind, I'll go with +1 here.
eight tentacle attacks for hentai for +1 la this is powerful

[Inevitability]

eight tentacle attacks for hentai for +1 la this is powerful

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this.

[khadgar567]

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this.
one more needed to chage the game to friendly to not so friendly considering its just ready for grappling build this becomes dark rather quick plus dont respond with any intigue cause I dont want to get banned for describing

[Inevitability]

Celestial Creature

http://dailydesigninspiration.com/diverse/di/jasonengle/Celestial_by_JasonEngle.jpg

The first template is often-maligned Celestial, best known for providing wizards with expendable summons. The tier system for templates (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7044) lists it as 'tier 5': literally the lowest of the low. I don't completely agree with the rating, but it illustrates how little Celestial adds to your character for +2 LA.

What does it give you? Darkvision, weak spell resistance (an equally-leveled caster will penetrate it 75% of the time), a weaker version of Smite Evil, usable once a day, and scaling energy resistance and damage reduction. Oh, and if you're an animal or vermin you become a sentient magical beast instead, which is a negligible benefit unless you're looking for a cheap way to make your vermin PC playable.

The scaling abilities slightly complicate picking an appropriate LA. If you only have a few HD, you gain nothing but a few uncommon resistances. You then gain DR/magic, which is briefly useful before becoming near-worthless due to enemies with magical gear getting more common. The subsequent increases to both of these abilities don't add much to their overall use.

All things considered, I can't really put this at anything other than +1 LA. At +0, it's simply too strong not to take, whereas +2 would keep it terribly underpowered.

[Flickerdart]

All things considered, I can't really put this at anything other than +1 LA. At +0, it's simply too strong not to take, whereas +2 would keep it terribly underpowered.
The problem with +1 is that it hurts a ton when the template sucks, and you can buy it off when it gets good. At the early levels (especially 1-3) it barely does anything at all. I would recommend a straight-up XP cost like Necropolitan. Knock people down to halfway to the starting level for getting the template, and then move on.

[PraxisVetli]

The problem with +1 is that it hurts a ton when the template sucks, and you can buy it off when it gets good. At the early levels (especially 1-3) it barely does anything at all. I would recommend a straight-up XP cost like Necropolitan. Knock people down to halfway to the starting level for getting the template, and then move on.

But how would you even acquire such a template?
A ritual?

[Flickerdart]

But how would you even acquire such a template?
A ritual?

"Hey guy, turns out you have celestial heritage, you have become powerful enough for it to manifest, wooo."

[Thurbane]

All things considered, I can't really put this at anything other than +1 LA. At +0, it's simply too strong not to take, whereas +2 would keep it terribly underpowered.

I'd agree with this assessment...

[WhamBamSam]

But how would you even acquire such a template?
A ritual?There's a spell (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) in the online archives for that. In absence of houserules like this thread proposes, a cocktail of Aspect of the Wolf/Planar Familiar is the lowest ECL method I know of to get the Magical Beast type on a character.

[Thurbane]

There's a spell (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) in the online archives for that. In absence of houserules like this thread proposes, a cocktail of Aspect of the Wolf/Planar Familiar is the lowest ECL method I know of to get the Magical Beast type on a character.

There's also a spell in the SC that gives the Fiendish template to an undead.

[Flickerdart]

Campaign idea - roving gangs of LG sorcerers force the Celestial template on everyone in a misguided attempt to do Good, PCs are angry at them because of the LA they have to deal with.

[Huldaerus]

What's your LA estimate on the harpy? My players may adopt a half-fiend harpy as companion lol.

[khadgar567]

What's your LA estimate on the harpy? My players may adopt a half-fiend harpy as companion lol.
he goes with alphabetic but I think la 0 for direct cr

[Inevitability]

To Flickerdart:

Firstly, I agree that the Celestial template is very hard to balance, and I want you to know I appreciate your efforts to help find a way to make it playable.

However, you say you can 'buy it off when it gets good'. Firstly, LA buyoff is an optional rule, and I don't think all LA's should be assigned with it in mind. After all, if you're assuming LA buyoff will be in play, why not do the same for gestalt, or action points? Both are frequently used rules that don't apply to all campaigns.

And besides, there's little difference between a one-time XP penalty and LA buyoff anyway. At levels higher than 3 (and you probably would be playing at a higher level if you're taking Celestial), you can just pay 2000 XP and be done with the template. Your suggestion will most likely result in a similar cost: assuming you start at 4th-level, you have to pay 2000 XP.

My point being: one can't just say +1 LA is unbalanced because it can be bought off, at least not without a suggestion that doesn't suffer from the same issues.

As things are now, I'm keeping it at +1 LA. A standard XP cost would do nothing LA buyoff can't do, and a DM who wants LA buyoff can choose to include it in his game. Celestial may not be the strongest +1 LA template ever, but it's not worthless either.

[Inevitability]

Centaur

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG32.jpg

What does being a centaur get you? Well, for one, pretty great ability scores. +8 strength is good on its own, and combined with +4 dexterity, +4 constitution and +2 wisdom it gets even better. The minor intelligence penalty can be safely ignored.

A centaur's four racial HD are of the monstrous humanoid type, meaning they get d8 HD, full BAB, good reflex and will saves, darkvision, a small amount of skill points, and proficiency with simple weapons (and in this specific case, also the composite longbow and longsword). That's... not too great, but I guess it could be worse.

Centaurs are large, but don't get reach. They get a small amount of natural armor, two natural hoof attacks and the above-average speed of 50 ft, as fast as a heavy horse. Finally, they deal double damage when charging with a lance, which is probably the best strategy available to them from the get-go (well, as soon as you get proficient with a lance). One may even try to somehow get a centaur to ride a mount and deal triple lance damage.

So what LA is fit here? Fact is that centaurs give some very good things to melee characters. Add to this that even with +1 LA, 9th-level maneuvers remain available, and I'm having trouble not rating them at least that high. The permanent doubling of all lance-based charge damage isn't something to scoff at either.

+1 LA for now.

EDIT: Also, the two-month anniversary of this thread! Woo-hoo!

EDIT2: Turns out you can take Spirited Charge and apply it to your attacks, according to RoF. That's good. That's really good.

[AMX]

Finally, they deal double damage when charging with a lance, which is probably the best strategy available to them from the get-go (well, as soon as you get proficient with a lance). One may even try to somehow get a centaur to ride a mount and deal triple lance damage.

I'm not sure that works, due to the qualifier "just as a rider on a mount does" - I'd read that as "it's the same bonus, you can't apply it twice."

[Inevitability]

I'm not sure that works, due to the qualifier "just as a rider on a mount does" - I'd read that as "it's the same bonus, you can't apply it twice."

Hence the 'might'. I'm aware that not all DM's will let it fly. RAW I see no problem with it, though.

Anyway, the LA was assigned without this trick in mind, so it doesn't really change anything whether it works or not.

[Inevitability]

Chaos Beasts

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG33.jpg

These things are the stuff of nightmares. Appearance-wise, that is. Mechanics-wise, they aren't that great.

I used to think chaos beasts were worthless. After carefully reading their statblock, I've changed my opinion: they're only mostly worthless, with the lack of worthlessness coming from an ability that is unlikely to actually change fights.

Allow me to explain. Corporeal Instability is a decent save-or-suck (no spellcasting, severely lowered speed, hampered attacks). If it were just that, it'd be outclassed by many other abilities, but the thing is that CI is incredibly hard to escape from. It doesn't naturally wear off, a charisma check only suppresses it for a single minute, and the handful of spells that do remove it are high-level or require expensive material components. Also, if the continuous wisdom drain knocks someone out, they turn into a chaos beast themselves.

Of course, because a chaos beast still has only two weak claws for natural attacks, can't use equipment, and can't really contribute to a fight against nonliving or transformation-immune creatures, it's still a bad choice. A poor save-or-die that only kicks in a couple of minutes after the battle should have ended and spawns a hostile monster when it finally kills the target isn't a reason to forgo eight levels. -0 LA works.


I also wish to apologize for the lack of updates lately. Things have been busy recently, but at the moment it looks like I'll be able to update more frequently in the nearby future. I hope everyone understands.

[PraxisVetli]

I also wish to apologize for the lack of updates lately. Things have been busy recently, but at the moment it looks like I'll be able to update more frequently in the nearby future. I hope everyone understands.

Do what you gotta do man.
This thread is amazing, worth the wait!

[Inevitability]

Chimera

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG34.jpg

It's about time for the chimera, a combination of lion, goat and dragon with some hydra thrown in.

Let's start with the positive. A chimera's RHD are Magical Beast type, meaning they gain full BAB, quite good saves and good HP. They are also Large with decent physical stats, and have no less than five natural weapons (with mouthpick options).

The downsides: chimeras (chimerae?) are weak-minded and the breath weapon is nearly useless (why yes, I'd like to deal 3d8 points of energy damage instead of full attacking). Furthermore, the ability scores are a little low for a creature you're spending nine of your levels on.

I'm honestly in doubt whether or not to assign a LA here. On the one hand, 9 HD are a lot to sacrifice already, but on the other... four natural attacks plus a full BAB weapon routine is awesome. I'll be going with no LA, but anyone is free to correct me if they disagree.

[Thurbane]

The breath weapon is pretty terrible, but it can be used for meta-breath feats.

With 9 RHD, LA +0 sounds fair (in the context of the purpose of this thread).

[Inevitability]

The breath weapon is pretty terrible, but it can be used for meta-breath feats.

I know that, but I doubt people who play a chimera are going to make heavy use of it.

Firstly, there's the fact that if all you want is a breath weapon to optimize, nine levels in dragonfire adept give you something stronger than the chimera's breath. Not to mention that you can just dip one level and still apply all the metabreath feats you want.

Secondly, there's the issue of splitting resources. Chimera's are oriented towards melee combat: spending a lot of resources on your breath weapon will hurt your melee capabilities.

[Inevitability]

Choker

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG35a.jpg

This breathtaking (ba-dum tss) monster is the choker, also known as the reason why you don't walk single file in dungeons.

For a small creature, chokers are a surprisingly adept grapplers. A +4 racial bonus to grapple checks and a +6 bonus to strength make them better grapplers than halflings, humans, and even orcs. On top of that they constrict their victim's throat, preventing both speech and verbal spellcasting. This means that your grabs restrict verbal, somatic, and most material components.

Another fun quality of chokers: they have reach, meaning a creature that approaches you may get attacked, grabbed, and held in place before it can even attack you. On your turn you can then let go, retreat a bit and repeat.

And then there's Quickness, probably one of the most broken abilities in the entire game. It gives you an extra standard or move action on your turn, every turn. Add an extra strike to your full attack? Solve melee problem #1? Perhaps cast two spells a turn at no penalty? Quickness is a very, very good thing to have.

Finally, chokers get a few abilities that ought to be mentioned. Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, a slow climb speed, and darkvision. Neat, but not necessary.

To be honest, I'm not sure a creature with Quickness should have 9th-level spells or maneuvers. This would put the choker's LA at +2, which sounds about right to me. A choker in itself may be a little underpowered at that LA, but the potential reward at higher levels is so great that anything below +2 would make chokers a no-brainer, which I want to avoid.

[AMX]

To be honest, I'm not sure a creature with Quickness should have 9th-level spells or maneuvers. This would put the choker's LA at +2, which sounds about right to me. A choker in itself may be a little underpowered at that LA, but the potential reward at higher levels is so great that anything below +2 would make chokers a no-brainer, which I want to avoid.

I'm think I'm missing something, I can't see why LA +2?
Both Wizard and Cleric get 9s at Lvl 17, and the Choker has 3 RHD.
So when playing without buy-off, LA +1 is enough to prevent them from getting 9s; and with buy-off, you need LA +3.

[Inevitability]

I'm think I'm missing something, I can't see why LA +2?
Both Wizard and Cleric get 9s at Lvl 17, and the Choker has 3 RHD.
So when playing without buy-off, LA +1 is enough to prevent them from getting 9s; and with buy-off, you need LA +3.

You're absolutely right that a +1 LA would prevent 9th-level spells. However, a choker with +1 LA could still get 9th-level maneuvers. Because half of a creature's RHD is counted when determining the maximum maneuver level, a choker would have 3/2 (≈1) + 16 = 17 levels, allowing 9th-level maneuvers.

[ShadeRaven]

Has anyone done the vampire template already? Really interested in playing a Sanguinist Medic Vampire from the Dreamscarred new playtest, but no idea what will be a reasonable LA. Energy Drain and Create Spawn really make that thing close to unplayable as a PC with their potential for abuse.

[AMX]

You're absolutely right that a +1 LA would prevent 9th-level spells. However, a choker with +1 LA could still get 9th-level maneuvers. Because half of a creature's RHD is counted when determining the maximum maneuver level, a choker would have 3/2 (≈1) + 16 = 17 levels, allowing 9th-level maneuvers.
Ah, ToB. Of course.

Has anyone done the vampire template already? Really interested in playing a Sanguinist Medic Vampire from the Dreamscarred new playtest, but no idea what will be a reasonable LA. Energy Drain and Create Spawn really make that thing close to unplayable as a PC with their potential for abuse.
No.
Dire_Stirge is going through alphabetically, so V is quite a while off.

[Flickerdart]

Has anyone done the vampire template already? Really interested in playing a Sanguinist Medic Vampire from the Dreamscarred new playtest, but no idea what will be a reasonable LA. Energy Drain and Create Spawn really make that thing close to unplayable as a PC with their potential for abuse.
You should take a look at the savage progression for vampire (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a). Spawn and energy drain only come in at level 7 of the template, while the other iconic vampire abilities (coffin, blood drinking, mind control, gaseous form) can be acquired as early as level 3.

[Inevitability]

Chuul

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG35b.jpg

Chuuls are aquatic aberrations that grab people, then paralyze them with their tentacles. Sadly, they have several issues that make them near-unplayable.

The first is obvious: 11 aberration RHD. This means you're missing out on several points of BAB compared to a full BAB-class. In addition, the high RHD will restrict you in your class choice: you won't even be able to finish many prestige classes!

Then there's the issue that chuuls just aren't that good at their primary role: damage-dealing. 20 strength and large size are good, but not great, especially at this level. Their claws deal little damage and there's no easy way to wield melee weapons for them. Chuuls can't even use their main ability (tentacles) without giving up a full attack!

On the subject of that ability, it's pretty bad. First they need to hit with a claw, then they need to grapple, then hope their subject can't free himself/teleport away in the next round, then give up a full attack to transfer him to their tentacles... and only then does the creature make a saving throw versus paralysis. Oh, and this all assumes their victim can't just ignore the grapples completely (FoM and incorporeality aren't exactly hard to get).

Are there no good sides at all to the chuul? Well, they're decent grapplers and their paralysis attack can be devastating against the right foes. Despite that, -0 LA is enough.

[VisitingDaGulag]

your PM mailbox is full...

Are you balancing based off abilities directly to LA & ignoring HD?
Or are you looking at HD & abilities and then assigning ECL
Basically are you assuming that the ECL formula is balanced)?

It's very important and I can give you an example to help you decide:

Consider a succubus. It has 6RHD, some LA & therefore a high ECL
Now consider an 'advanced succubus' that has 12RHD.
It has no additional abilities to justify its huge ECL increase aside from its HD.

If you didn't know that the advanced succubus was just an 'advanced' version and you saw a 12RHD creature with abilities that didn't quite justify its rather high ECL, should its LA be lower than the non-advanced version?

[Inevitability]

your PM mailbox is full...

Are you balancing based off abilities directly to LA & ignoring HD?
Or are you looking at HD & abilities and then assigning ECL
Basically are you assuming that the ECL formula is balanced)?

It's very important and I can give you an example to help you decide:

Consider a succubus. It has 6RHD, some LA & therefore a high ECL
Now consider an 'advanced succubus' that has 12RHD.
It has no additional abilities to justify its huge ECL increase aside from its HD.

If you didn't know that the advanced succubus was just an 'advanced' version and you saw a 12RHD creature with abilities that didn't quite justify its rather high ECL, should its LA be lower than the non-advanced version?

Mailbox has been emptied. Thanks for notifying me!

And to answer your question: yes I do. The main purpose of this thread is to make monsters playable. However, monster HD often are not as strong as class HD: they give no spellcasting, no full BAB and no useful traits. If I just ignore this and assign LA based on a monster's abilities, then you'd get a lot of monsters who are completely unplayable.

For example, the allip as it is right now has 'only' +3 LA. This is in part because of its not-so-great HD. If the allip had fewer HD, it'd have had a higher LA, and the other way around.

And on the topic of succubi: an advanced succubus technically deserves a lower LA, perhaps no LA at all if it has a lot of RHD. However, because I can't give LA's for all monsters with all possible amounts of RHD, I generalize something based on the base creature and trust people's common sense not to play something that would cripple their characters.

[Inevitability]

Cloaker

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG36.jpg

Another grappling-focused aberration? They must have been on discount.

Let's start with the base chassis. Cloakers are large with good stats all around, varying from 14-15 (the mental stats) to 21 (strength). They also have a fly speed, natural armor, and two weak natural attacks. Their bite attack doesn't have reach, but their other attacks do, including mouthpick weapons.

All this is before their special attacks, of course. Firstly, cloakers can engulf foes. This is basically a fancy grapple, but with the added benefit of partially transferring attacks against the cloaker to the grappled creature. With the way combat works for on the player side of the screen, I doubt it'll see much use, though.

There's also shadow shift. Using it (a standard action) lets the cloaker create concealment, mirror images, or a silent image. These abilities will probably be used out of combat, or as pre-battle buffs.

Finally, cloakers can moan. This infrasonic attack can inflict several strong status conditions, such as panicked, paralyzed, or nauseated and prone. That's effectively a battlefield-wide SoL.

Are there no downsides at all to cloakers? Well, the six aberration HD are obviously not great. There's also the issue of advancement: spellcasting is crippled by the RHD and your main ability can't really be advanced in any way.

With all that taken into account, I consider a LA of +2 more than appropriate. Cloakers have a strong chassis with stronger abilities. The RHD and lack of advancement is annoying, but acceptable.

[Inevitability]

Cockatrice

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG37.jpg

In legends, cockatrices are gruesome beasts that deaden their surroundings and kill all who look upon them. The D&D version, at CR 3, is slightly less impressive.

Now, since I've already gone over the basilisk I'll be comparing the cockatrice to it. It then becomes swiftly clear that the cockatrice is horribly outmatched.

The basilisk can petrify multiple enemies and doesn't have to enter melee for its ability to work. If it does, though, it can deliver reasonably powerful attacks with a mouthpick weapon in addition to its gaze attacks.

The cockatrice can't attack with a manufactured weapon and petrify foes at the same time, nor can it petrify multiple enemies. It can fly, but has no way to fight effectively from a distance. All the creature can do is try to hit its foe and hope it fails its save.

Is the cockatrice powerful? Probably. Petrification is still strong, even if it's a weaker kind of petrification. Still, it should definitely not be considered stronger than the basilisk. All things considered, I put it at +1 LA.

[WhamBamSam]

A cockatrice could use its paralyzing attack on multiple enemies at once using something like Great Flyby Attack, Paimon's Dance of Death, or the Desert Tempest maneuver. That's still hardly the same as just having a gaze attack to do it for you, but it's something. But yeah, I'd say LA +1 or even LA+0 seems fair.

[Inevitability]

Couatl

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG38a.jpg

Couatls are hard to balance. Their nine excellent (as far as RHD go) RHD give them flight, telepathy, ethereal jaunting, shapechanging, improved grab, constrict, Large size, ability bonuses, poison, darkvision, a natural attack, natural armor and Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Oh, and they gain spellcasting on top of all that. Sorcerer spellcasting. Sorcerer spellcasting except you can pick your spells from the cleric list too, with a handful of druid spells thrown in on top of that.

Now, anyone who's ever seen the cleric list knows that there are a lot of fun things you can now cherry-pick from it. Death Ward? Holy Word? Maybe go full gish and take Divine Power? It's all possible with this wondrous mind-reading jungle snake.

My standard tactic when dealing with monsters that get very strong abilities is simple: raise their LA to the point that they can't get 9th-level spells/maneuvers. In this case, it'd come down to +3 LA.

Is that too much? I think not. There'd be a substantial exchange of spell power, yes, but in return one gains excellent HD and very useful abilities.

Final verdict: +3 LA.

[Gildedragon]

Couatl

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG38a.jpg

Couatls are hard to balance. Their nine excellent (as far as RHD go) RHD give them flight, telepathy, ethereal jaunting, shapechanging, improved grab, constrict, Large size, ability bonuses, poison, darkvision, a natural attack, natural armor and Eschew Materials as a bonus feat.

Oh, and they gain spellcasting on top of all that. Sorcerer spellcasting. Sorcerer spellcasting except you can pick your spells from the cleric list too, with a handful of druid spells thrown in on top of that.

Now, anyone who's ever seen the cleric list knows that there are a lot of fun things you can now cherry-pick from it. Death Ward? Holy Word? Maybe go full gish and take Divine Power? It's all possible with this wondrous mind-reading jungle snake.

My standard tactic when dealing with monsters that get very strong abilities is simple: raise their LA to the point that they can't get 9th-level spells/maneuvers. In this case, it'd come down to +4 LA, which I must admit is a lot.

+3, then? In my opinion, the distinction comes down to choosing between underpoweredness now (+4) or overpoweredness later (+3). It is here that I find myself choosing +3. Imbalance at high levels is preferable because it's already part of the system (look at a full caster and try to deny it) and less campaigns happen at these levels. In order to create as much balance as possible, I'll give the couatl a LA of +3.

Please tell me what you think: your opinion is important!

LA+3 seems fair if say, later sorcerer levels stacked with the couatl's casting (which iirc they would)
It is sorta equivalent of taking a 7/10 casting PRC for bonus abilities.

[Inevitability]

LA+3 seems fair if say, later sorcerer levels stacked with the couatl's casting (which iirc they would)
It is sorta equivalent of taking a 7/10 casting PRC for bonus abilities.

Later sorcerer levels would indeed stack. The only differences between a couatl's casting ability and a 9th-level sorcerer casting ability are the couatl's expanded spell list and the fact that the couatl can't directly enter a prestige class that advances spellcasting: the specific wording forces it to first take a level in sorcerer.

[WhamBamSam]

LA+3 does still prevent 9ths through Sorc casting. Sorcerers don't get 9ths until 18th.

[Inevitability]

Darkmantle

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG38b.jpg

In the category 'everything trying to kill you', floating monsters that look like stalactites, fill the room with magical darkness, then eat your face.

While interesting, the Darkmantle's abilities aren't that strong and in fact seem contradictory at times. Constrict and Improved Grab nudge them towards grappling, but your grapple check will suck due to small size. Similarly, flight may be strong at low levels, but you lack the ranged firepower to make use of it in combat.

Grappling is out, and so is most weapon use (Gloves of Man may work, but even then you're better off not using weapons). Casting is surprisingly viable, though.

At low levels, flight is a boon for almost any caster, your stat array supports both wisdom- and charisma-based spellcasters, small size increases your AC and to-hit with spells and Darkness is a decent buff to reduce low-level squishiness. The lost caster level hurts of course, but it's a fair trade-off for many builds.

To summarize: Darkmantles require some work to be playable, but in the right builds they can make a valuable chassis. A LA of +1 is necessary, though: its stats are a bit too good to allow as a base race.

[Inevitability]

Delver

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG39.jpg

Delvers are another one of those monsters with literally no use for any DM, ever. They're docile and don't attack people and have no abilities that makes them worth seeking out. There's the possibility of a metal-drunk (check the description) delver terrorizing people, but if you're level 9 and your quest is: 'kill the giant earthworm-thing that got drunk on metal', you should find a new quest.

With that said: how does the delver stack up as a PC? Not that great, which is largely because of the fifteen aberration HD you have to take.

The ability scores are good (not difficult to attain before this level, though), huge size is a plus and any adventurer can use tremorsense. The delver's special abilities are moderately useful, with their utility increasing if you're fighting earth elementals in an underground environment or something? I honestly don't know what fifteenth-level adventurer can't just get someone to cast Stone Shape for him.

Add to the HD and lackluster traits an inability to wear armor or wield weapons, and -0 LA is the only possible answer to: "What LA should a delver have?".

[arclance]

Delvers are another one of those monsters with literally no use for any DM, ever. They're docile and don't attack people and have no abilities that makes them worth seeking out. There's the possibility of a metal-drunk (check the description) delver terrorizing people, but if you're level 9 and your quest is: 'kill the giant earthworm-thing that got drunk on metal', you should find a new quest.
Sounds like the kind of thing that might be used when the DM needs to make up something because their players did something that invalidated or used up what they had prepared for that day.

I could see using it to fill an hour or two if my players finished something faster than I expected them too if only because I never used a Delver before.

[Inevitability]

Babau

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/1/1c/Babau.jpg/250px-Babau.jpg


Because 3.5's demon portraits are always feature multiple demons (for some reason, giving fungi a solo picture is more important than giving balors one), I'll be using the pathfinder ones.

Babaus: demonic spies and assassins covered in acidic slime. Their 7 RHD are outsider type, which is pure gold for a roguish character, and their ability scores are high to above-average. The only disappointment is a relatively low dexterity, but when you're as strong as an ogre and have skin like full plate, do you need dexterity?

Babaus have a variety of abilities. They have DR that is moderately difficult to overcome, a few resistances or immunities, low SR that doesn't scale (don't bother with it, I'd say), slime that damages whatever touches their skin (a dagger will probably be gone after a single hit, a longsword after two) and telepathy.

Then there's the major abilities. Sneak Attack is good to have and qualifies them for a few prestige classes (note that Craven won't work with it, though), summoning another babau can be useful in a pinch, and the spell-like abilities are just icing.

How to advance a babau? Dips in rogue and assassin upgrade your sneak attack to 4d6 at the cost of two levels, and from there you can add levels in either of those classes. Their high charisma may make gishes an attractive prospect, but I don't recommend it: you lack the levels required to get a good spellcasting base set up.

All things considered, babaus are strong monsters, albeit held back by their lack of focus. Rogues outdamage them, wizards outcast them, and warblades outmelee them. Still, they deserve a LA, which I'll put at +1 for now.

Feedback is appreciated!

[Inevitability]

Balor

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/pathfinder/images/5/53/Balor.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090706161231

The balor: strongest of all MM demons. Also a pain to balance for player use because it's part of the variable and misty realm called 'post-epic', where all attempts at a balanced game are thrown out of the window.

Balors have 20 outsider RHD, which is a bit of a double-edged sword. Speaking of double-edged swords, they get one! It's not entirely sure how the ability works, but a liberal reading would imply that you have a +1 vorpal sword with you all the time.

Then there's a ton of other abilities I'm not going to evaluate one by one. A few highlights are the spell-likes (At-will Blasphemy, Dominate Monster, or Power Word Stun? Yes please), your wonderful ability scores (lowest are dex and int at 24-25), common energy immunities, continuous undispellable True Seeing (screw that, entire school of illusion!) and ability to summon another balor as a panic button.

To compare it to the only other truly Epic monster I've assigned a LA to so far, the solar (no, a colossal animated object does not count). The solar has an ECL of 24, but is obviously stronger than its demonic counterpart, if only because of its cleric casting.

In fact, despite its many abilities the balor does lack one thing: customizability. A player won't be able to add much except in the most Epic of games, and even then it's questionable how much extra levels will increase your strength comparable to a wizard, or a beguiler, or even an optimized barbarian.

+0 LA, partially because of feedback I received.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not convinced the balor should have any LA at all. Solars are CR23 (and under-CRed for sure), but balors have no casting, relatively sad SLAs, and ruin their own gear when they die. Even at LA0, I would not play it over a class level character.

[Inevitability]

I'm not convinced the balor should have any LA at all. Solars are CR23 (and under-CRed for sure), but balors have no casting, relatively sad SLAs, and ruin their own gear when they die. Even at LA0, I would not play it over a class level character.

I'm not sure if I agree on the 'relatively sad SLAs' part. Fire Storm and Unholy Aura are weak, I admit, but the others all seem nice to have, to varying degrees. And then there's the ability to summon an entire second balor which can stunlock anything non-epic while you kill it.

And note that the balor as-written has incredibly sucky feats (weapon focus (longsword), seriously? and why didn't you quicken GDM?).

Still, your opinion is appreciated. LA reduced to +1, but I don't think it'll drop further.

[HolyDraconus]

I'm not sure if I agree on the 'relatively sad SLAs' part. Fire Storm and Unholy Aura are weak, I admit, but the others all seem nice to have, to varying degrees. And then there's the ability to summon an entire second balor which can stunlock anything non-epic while you kill it.

And note that the balor as-written has incredibly sucky feats (weapon focus (longsword), seriously? and why didn't you quicken GDM?).

Still, your opinion is appreciated. LA reduced to +1, but I don't think it'll drop further.

I have to ask this, since I been following your work so far and its helped immensely, but, why a level adjustment for the Balor? To even sit down and begin play with it requires one of two things: starting at level 22, or having a racial class progression that is tailored made to be boring for most levels just for balance? The hit die alone make the fear of it hitting 9th level spells and/or maneuvers moot, and since, again thanks to hit die, its epic when you start playing, the things a comparable character when optimized can do is usually better, especially if its a tier 3 or above character. It keeps falling back to being epic for me. Its strong, the abilities are good, but its epic. Extremely LOW epic.
I just keep imagining something like a Balor took its first level of Sorceror at level 22, while a lvl 22 sorc has 10th level spells slots, with the ability to THREATEN gods. Sure, depending on the god, it may not be able to do any more than that, but that's FAR more than a Balor can do at the same level. Balor smashes unprepared parties, but so can Wizards, Sorcs and Clerics at that level, hell, I seen some ridiculous bards do that at those levels. A LA seems too much or just outright spiteful I think.

[Inevitability]

Really? In that case, I shall humbly remove the Balor's LA. Thanks for the feedback!

Also thanks for your compliments! This thread sometimes goes silent for several days and I can't help but feel like no one reads this in those cases. Comments like yours really help!

[Thurbane]

I can't wait until you get to Devils, probably my favourite villains in D&D. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

...I don't comment that much as I'm really not much of an expert on LA. I generally find myself estimating too high, because no one in my group has ever played anything above LA +1 (although someone is about to play a Centaur [in a one-shot module] for the first time, so should be interesting).

[Inevitability]

Bebilith

http://i.imgur.com/5K2DRv2.jpg

I'm not entirely sure what's up with bebiliths. They're supposed to hunt other demons, yet their racial features fail to help them do so (poison won't work, no MM demons wear armor, and tracking or webs are useless if your foes can teleport). They're demons, but don't belong to any of the major demonic races (tanar'ri, obyrith, loumara), which is weird in itself. At least their lack of SLA's makes them easier to adjust for player use...

Bebiliths have 12 outsider RHD, as well as the chaotic and evil subtypes. They are reasonably quick for a Huge creature and can climb if necessary, but lack in movement options compared to other demons. Ability scores are pretty good, with high strength and constitution and above-average or average other abilities.

Bebiliths have few special attacks compared to the plethora of summons and spell-likes other demons get. They can rend armor if both claw attacks hit. With the amount of monsters wearing actual armor getting smaller and smaller as one levels, I doubt it'll come up often, though. Bebiliths also have constitution-damaging poison, but with poison immunity being so easily available I recommend defaulting to a mouthpick weapon and only using the poison when necessary.

Then there's web-throwing, which is basically an improved version of a net. With entangling being a so-so buff (unless paired with other dexterity penalties) and the fact that you're limited to four webs a day, I'd use my actions in other ways.

Finally, there's at-will self-only supernatural plane shifting. With wizards gaining plane shift in a single level and clerics already able to access it (with both these classes able to use it offensively or take others along), I doubt it'll be useful except as a panic button, or perhaps to function a the party's interdimensional shopping cart.

The bebilith may raise interesting logistical questions, but it's not a strong monster by any means. No LA is necessary to balance it.

[HolyDraconus]

I can't wait until you get to Devils, probably my favourite villains in D&D. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

...I don't comment that much as I'm really not much of an expert on LA. I generally find myself estimating too high, because no one in my group has ever played anything above LA +1 (although someone is about to play a Centaur [in a one-shot module] for the first time, so should be interesting).

I usually have level buy off in my campaigns to entice players to try something different. But even with it, no player will play with an la4 or equivalent race or Template. This thread here though I am hoping goes all the way thru, so they can have options from a different perspective.

[Segev]

Regarding things like the Celestial template, where the potential for buy-off could make it too good later on, what if you also considered adding HD instead of LA? If the Celestial template's only "cost" was 1 racial HD of Outsider, it's a good HD, but it's still a non-caster HD, which serves most of the purpose.

[Troacctid]

Regarding things like the Celestial template, where the potential for buy-off could make it too good later on, what if you also considered adding HD instead of LA? If the Celestial template's only "cost" was 1 racial HD of Outsider, it's a good HD, but it's still a non-caster HD, which serves most of the purpose.

LA buyoff is not going to make it too good at LA +1. It's still competing with all the other +1 templates and races, and I don't think the comparison favors it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Regarding things like the Celestial template, where the potential for buy-off could make it too good later on, what if you also considered adding HD instead of LA? If the Celestial template's only "cost" was 1 racial HD of Outsider, it's a good HD, but it's still a non-caster HD, which serves most of the purpose.
I think this is probably the best solution: instead of reassigning LA (with a minimum of +0), reassign RHD (without minimum). It solves your negative ECL problems, and your LA buyoff problems. It solves some other oddities, as well. Take vampires, for example. Vampires have a +8 bonus to Hide, but are nevertheless no more stealthy than anything of equal ECL, thanks to their +8 LA. If you have the vampire template at LA +4, converted to four undead RHD (which suck), you actually get the +8 bonus on top of your normal skill ranks.

It's probably beyond the scope of this thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing some RHD assignments for the most egregious offenders (colossal animated objects, for example - let's say 8 RHD?).

[Inevitability]

I think this is probably the best solution: instead of reassigning LA (with a minimum of +0), reassign RHD (without minimum). It solves your negative ECL problems, and your LA buyoff problems. It solves some other oddities, as well. Take vampires, for example. Vampires have a +8 bonus to Hide, but are nevertheless no more stealthy than anything of equal ECL, thanks to their +8 LA. If you have the vampire template at LA +4, converted to four undead RHD (which suck), you actually get the +8 bonus on top of your normal skill ranks.

It's probably beyond the scope of this thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing some RHD assignments for the most egregious offenders (colossal animated objects, for example).

The problem is that that leads to new oddities. Imagine a player playing a Gas Spore, from LoM. The gas spore, for those who don't know, is a monster whose primary ability involves blowing itself up, so I imagine its altered RHD would be far lower than the 10 it naturally possesses.

Now, we have a gas spore PC with only a third, perhaps a fourth of the RHD a 'normal' gas spore possesses. This one is going to be considerably more fragile than a 'normal' gas spore. A new 'oddity' has emerged, this one making much less sense than a player vampire not being far more sneaky than his adventuring companions.

Besides, your argument for vampires not being sneaky is only because of their massive LA, which I will obviously reduce considerably when the time is there. Once that happens, a vampire will be sneakier than the human rogue in the same party. Reducing gas spore RHD creates an inconsistency that can't be so easily fixed.

[Thurbane]

LA buyoff is not going to make it too good at LA +1. It's still competing with all the other +1 templates and races, and I don't think the comparison favors it.

Agreed - Celestial is fairly weak compared to Mineral Warrior etc.

[Troacctid]

Quasilycanthrope is also right there offering much, much better DR for +1 LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The problem is that that leads to new oddities. Imagine a player playing a Gas Spore, from LoM. The gas spore, for those who don't know, is a monster whose primary ability involves blowing itself up, so I imagine its altered RHD would be far lower than the 10 it naturally possesses.

Now, we have a gas spore PC with only a third, perhaps a fourth of the RHD a 'normal' gas spore possesses. This one is going to be considerably more fragile than a 'normal' gas spore. A new 'oddity' has emerged, this one making much less sense than a player vampire not being far more sneaky than his adventuring companions.

Besides, your argument for vampires not being sneaky is only because of their massive LA, which I will obviously reduce considerably when the time is there. Once that happens, a vampire will be sneakier than the human rogue in the same party. Reducing gas spore RHD creates an inconsistency that can't be so easily fixed.
Um, why is it a problem that a gas spore would have reduced RHD? Obviously, the change to RHD would not apply only to PCs.

As for vampires: I suppose you're right. Most of my objections to the vampire template have more to do with the general over-stuffedness, making it feel like they really wanted to make a vampire class, without the class.

[Malimar]

http://www.troll.me/images/monitor-lizard/i-am-monitoring-this-thread.jpg

It might be interesting, once the project is closer to done, perhaps when you've got MMI done, to see how your revised LAs compare to WotC's given LAs. (In particular I'm curious to see how close or far my "divide all LAs by 2, rounded up" house rule comes to your results.)


Your analyses seem to have been pretty good so far, so I don't have any comments about that. However,

No LA is necessary to balance it.
You've said things like this a couple times. It's unambiguous in the context of this thread, where you're unlikely to render a judgement of "unfit for PC use". But in contexts outside this thread, "no LA" and "LA +0" are not synonymous, so it gives me a little jar every time I see your usage of the former to mean the latter. Not saying don't do it; do what you want, I'm not a cop, and this is your thread, not mine. Just saying it briefly interrupts the flow of my understanding when you do it.

[Inevitability]

Um, why is it a problem that a gas spore would have reduced RHD? Obviously, the change to RHD would not apply only to PCs.

By then you'd be changing the entire monster stat block. Monsters would lose or gain feats and skill ranks, the save DCs for their abilities would change, their BAB and saves would be influenced... You'd basically have to rewrite and re-CR every monster in the entire game, just to make sure they're appropriate for player use now. Do you really consider that the most practical solution?

[Segev]

By then you'd be changing the entire monster stat block. Monsters would lose or gain feats and skill ranks, the save DCs for their abilities would change, their BAB and saves would be influenced... You'd basically have to rewrite and re-CR every monster in the entire game, just to make sure they're appropriate for player use now. Do you really consider that the most practical solution?

That is a good point. I confess that I didn't consider that it would impact BAB and feats. (I did think of skills, but mainly I was considering it in terms of additional skill points, not having to reduce them.)

[ExLibrisMortis]

By then you'd be changing the entire monster stat block. Monsters would lose or gain feats and skill ranks, the save DCs for their abilities would change, their BAB and saves would be influenced... You'd basically have to rewrite and re-CR every monster in the entire game, just to make sure they're appropriate for player use now. Do you really consider that the most practical solution?
No, not practical per sé, but the 'best', as in, if you want to iron out the weirdness between monster ECL, class ECL, LA buyoff, and HD, then the most complete solution that's still relatively uniform/one operation is this: reassign HD total, eliminate LA. It's beyond the scope of this thread, and for most monsters, it'd be a small difference, e.g. you might take your balors and solars up a couple of HD at best, but for stupid stuff, like huge+ animated objects and some of the undead with piles of HD, it's an interesting option, so I brought it up.

You could also allow LA to be filled with bonus RHD, and then replace those bonus RHD with PC class levels as you gain experience, as a radical form of buyoff. But again, that is beyond the scope of the thread. Carry on please!

[Inevitability]

Carry on please!

I will! :smallsmile:

[TiaC]

A while ago, I considered doing something like this, but since I don't like ECL≠HD, I tried to answer two questions. First, what LA should this monster have? Second, how many HD would this need to be advanced to have an LA of 0?

Now, this still doesn't help with the massively over HDed monsters, but it avoids breaking PrCs and other HD systems in the same way as normal LA.

Would anyone be interested in a thread for this?

[Inevitability]

Dretch

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/w/images/thumb/4/4a/Dretch_-_Chippy.jpg/300px-Dretch_-_Chippy.jpg

At the very bottom of the abyssal food chain are the dretches. I don't understand why you'd want to play a being whose main purposes are serving as snacks for greater demons or getting summoned by novice demonologists, but who am I to judge?

Dretches have two outsider RHD, pretty good natural armor and decent natural weapons. Their ability scores are average, with the strength and constitution bonuses offset by the huge intelligence penalty. The problem here is that if you're focusing on strength, chances are you won't be small-sized, and if you're a small-sized melee combatant you'll be relying on sneak attack or spells for damage, both of which the dretch will be behind on.

Except for all that, dretches possess a weird form of telepathy that only works on creatures able to speak abyssal (though it should work with mindsight) damage reduction, energy resistances and two solid spell-like abilities.

You can also summon another dretch once per day, but it only works about one in three times. Fortunately it sticks around for an hour, making it a viable ability to use (or fail to use) before an important battle.

Finally, on dretches and weapons: it's not clear whether they can use them. If they can, it considerably increases their versatility, but if they can't you'll have to rely on a mouthpick weapon instead. No source I consulted reveals anything about this matter.

Taking all that into account, what LA should be given? +0 seems reasonable because a dretch doesn't really give a lot. Natural armor and weapons can be gotten more cheaply, and by 5th-level all your tricks are duplicable by a half-decent caster. A lucky casting of stinking cloud may end the encounter, but what will you do the rest of the day? Deal laughable damage with natural weapons? Get sneak attack from some source, only to fall behind in damage to an equally-ECL'ed rogue?

Of course, there may be people willing to give up two levels for the impressive array of protective abilities a dretch grants, but they shouldn't be further punished for it. +0 LA.

[Flickerdart]

Obviously the use for a dretch is to get one of your Outsider HD drained away and then go straight Rogue because Rogue 20 is a garbage level existing only to make you cry.

[Segev]

Dretches are also one of the few low-ECL candidates for entry into Fiend of Possession.

[InvisibleBison]

Finally, on dretches and weapons: it's not clear whether they can use them. If they can, it considerably increases their versatility, but if they can't you'll have to rely on a mouthpick weapon instead. No source I consulted reveals anything about this matter.

I'm pretty sure that dretches can wield weapons. The SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch)


A dretch’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[Inevitability]

I'm pretty sure that dretches can wield weapons. The SRD says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#dretch)

Allow me to counter that quotation with a quotation on my own.


A hellcat can hold its own in combat thanks to sharp claws and wicked fangs. It prefers to leap upon opponents, just as a lion does.

A hellcat’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

I doubt this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG55.jpg) creature is able to wield weapons naturally.

[InvisibleBison]

Allow me to counter that quotation with a quotation on my own.



I doubt this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG55.jpg) creature is able to wield weapons naturally.

Hmm. You're right. Now I'm confused.

[Inevitability]

Glabrezu

http://d20pfsrd.opengamingnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/glabrezu-jr.png

Apparently, this blueish lobster lad is pathfinder's official glabrezu picture. It looks more like a weirdly-shaped tropical crustacean than an awe-inspiring demon to me, to be honest.

Glabrezu are enormous: at Huge size they're even taller than balors. Their strength and constitution are consequently high too, with both in the low 30s. Other stats rank from average (10) to very good (20). They possess two pincer attacks, a bite attack and two claw attacks. Given the humanoid nature of their clawed hands, I'd say they should be able to wield weapons, but I wasn't able to find any confirmation of this.

What can a glabrezu do? Their melee ability is definitely not bad, even when you have to use a mouthpick weapon. Their continuous True Seeing is the equivalent of a 75000 GP magic item, and while mostly obsolute or attainable through other ways, their energy resistances and immunities are valuable too.

Like most other tanar'ri, glabrezu have lots of spell-like abilities. These vary in usefulness from almost zero (Unholy Blight) to useful (Mirror Image, Greater Teleport, Power Word Stun) to potentially encounter-ending (Reverse Gravity). Glabrezu can also summon a horde of dretches or 1-2 vrocks, which I suppose can be useful (please roll me 23 saving throws against Stinking Cloud).

Perhaps the glabrezu's most powerful ability: Wish. Every month, glabrezu can grant a wish to a mortal humanoid (such as your adventuring companions). It should be noted that this is a SLA, and therefore requires no resource expenditure on your part. As this is obviously broken beyond belief, it will not be considered when assigning the creature its LA.

Taking all these things into account, what is an appropriate LA? With SLA's that outclass a warlock, great martial ability and the various permanent resistances or abilities, combined with the fact that your RHD don't hurt that bad, +2 seems a minimum here.

[Troacctid]

I think Wish is too powerful for a 12th level character, even if it's only once a month.

[Inevitability]

I think Wish is too powerful for a 12th level character, even if it's only once a month.

I agree that it's a strong ability. However:

Unless the PC's start using time-speed shenanigans (which typically get available at the same time as Wish itself), the glabrezu won't have too many opportunities to use Wish. Typically, PC's only do nothing for long amounts of time if they're traveling (which shouldn't take that long at 12th level) or nothing happens in the campaign (which is DM dependent). In a single month, someone can easily gain several levels. (Average 3 encounters a day with 15 encounters to level up still gets you up 6 levels between two uses of Wish).

Also, Wish is already available at ECL 12. A luckblade can get you a single free wish (as well as a decent weapon) for 62360 GP. This is within WBL for a glabrezu-equivalent PC. And with adventurers growing so rapidly, by the time the month is over adventuring should've earned him enough to make another Wish. Sure, the guy who bought the luckblade is now short on WBL, but remember that he can use the wish to get back to or above WBL if need be.

Note that I agree with you. I think Wish shouldn't be available at ECL 12, but RAW it is. A DM who forbids luckblades may as well remove the glabrezu's Wish ability, but such an act would be beyond the scope of this thread.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Planar binding is well within reach at these levels, too, as are plain scrolls of wish, at a very reasonable 28.825 GP each. A 1/month wish is on par with cost reduction feats on an artificer: certainly powerful, but par for the course, at that level. That is, a party with months and months of downtime can abuse glabrezu wishes, but an artificer can be exploited in the same way, or even a wall of iron/salt wizard. Downtime and time-lapsing is just useful.

[Inevitability]

Planar binding is well within reach at these levels, too, as are plain scrolls of wish, at a very reasonable 28.825 GP each. A 1/month wish is on par with cost reduction feats on an artificer: certainly powerful, but par for the course, at that level.

Excellent examples too. I didn't choose them because neither is directly priced and therefore not directly calculated in by WotC, but RAW they are ways of getting a Wish too.

And that's before getting into LE Candles of Invocation...

[Troacctid]

Actually, 62,000 gp is considered an 18th level item. Even a scroll of wish is a 16th level item, and that's with spell completion activation restricting who can use it.

I believe the glabrezu is another of those monsters like the bodak that is not really appropriate for PC use. If I were giving it an LA, I would go the pixie route: one LA for the ones with the SLA, another for the ones without.

[Inevitability]

Actually, 62,000 gp is considered an 18th level item. Even a scroll of wish is a 16th level item, and that's with spell completion activation restricting who can use it.

What do you mean when you say '18th level item'? A 12th-level character has a WBL of 88000 GP, more than enough to buy a luckblade/scroll of wish/casting of Planar Ally/candle of invocation.

The pixie idea is intriguing, but I'm still not convinced 1/month is frequent enough to significantly affect gameplay.

[ExLibrisMortis]

What do you mean when you say '18th level item'? A 12th-level character has a WBL of 88000 GP, more than enough to buy a luckblade/scroll of wish/casting of Planar Ally/candle of invocation.
There's a system of item levels in the Magic Item Compendium. I don't think anybody actually uses it, though, and even if they did, it's just a DM tool for speeding up treasure and NPC creation. It has no bearing on what PCs can or can't do.

[Troacctid]

What do you mean when you say '18th level item'? A 12th-level character has a WBL of 88000 GP, more than enough to buy a luckblade/scroll of wish/casting of Planar Ally/candle of invocation.
Magic Item Compendium introduces item levels based on price, used to estimate at what level a PC should be getting their hands on a particular item. 48,000–64,000 gp is considered an 18th level item.


The pixie idea is intriguing, but I'm still not convinced 1/month is frequent enough to significantly affect gameplay.
XP-free wishes are just straight up broken. Once a month, you can wish for any magic item you want, with no gp limit, because the only restriction is that the XP cost for creating the magic item is added to the spell's XP component—which you don't have to pay. If you have any extended downtime at all, you can simply bank your wishes for later by wishing for more wishes.

Your at-will spell-like abilities are also significantly better than those of a warlock—as good as or better than dark invocations. Your stat adjustments are crazy—I mean, +20 STR and CON?! Outsider HD are also the best hit dice in the game. I think anything less than LA +2 is madness, and I personally wouldn't go below LA +4.

[Thurbane]

For my 2 cents, I couldn't see myself dropping Glabrezu below LA +3 in my own games, for the reasons already given by others; bearing in mind I'm on the extremely harsh end of assigning LA, so I may be overestimating.

I also would like to point out Unholy Blight isn't as bad as all that IMHO. I would put it on a par (or just a fraction below) with unlimited Fireballs. The damage cap is lower (except against good Outsiders), and it sucks against non-good opponents, but it has a (minor) rider effect, and isn't subject to the very common Resist Fire X that so many creatures have. And lets face it, most of what a Demon fights is going to be good aligned in most games. YMMV.

[Inevitability]

Hm...

With the feedback received so far, I now see +0 LA was far too lenient (note to self: don't assign LA's when tired). I raised it to +3.

Everyone, thank you for pointing out how the ruling could be improved! :smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

Hezrou

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/6/6a/Hezrou.jpg/250px-Hezrou.jpg

Another day, another demon. This time, it's a giant combat frog with poor hygiene.

Hezrous are fairly decent regarding base stats. Their constitution is almost balor- and glabrezu-levels high, their strength is not bad, and their other stats range from 10 to 18. Hezrous are large-sized and enjoy 10 feet of reach as a result.

For natural attacks, Hezrous have two claws and a bite. The claws deal 1d8 base damage, the bite 4d4, so I recommend wielding a two-handed weapon in your claws. Hezrous should be able to wield weapons: the first Fiendish Codex shows one holding a chain with little apparent difficulty.

Spell-likes are a bit thin (by tanar'ri standards), with three abilities usable at will and and two thrice per day. Your at-will abilities are Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight as well as Greater Teleport, which should be mostly useful if you're faced with enemies at range. I can't see them winning encounters or solving difficult challenges, though.

The limited SLA's are Blasphemy and Gaseous Form. Gaseous Form isn't that useful when you can teleport at will, but it may help you get in dimensionally locked places. Blasphemy is quite useful when you get it, but monster HD will begin to outstrip its fixed CL quickly.

Finally, there's two additional abilties. Stench, while kind of ridiculous (fear the power of my bad body odor!) is essentially a free save-or-suck against all nearby creatures. It's a pity poison immunity stops it. The summoning of either another hezrou or a horde of dretches may be useful, but the low rate of success is too bad.

All in all, Hezrous possess several useful abilities, though they don't approach the level of power possessed by other demons. +1 LA seems about right.

[Troacctid]

I think +1 is too low again. You're still underestimating the power of Greater Teleport, and I think you're also underestimating the nausea effect, which is a straight-up save-or-lose—the nauseated condition prevents you from taking any actions other than vomiting, so anyone hit by it is out of the fight. It's a free action and has a Con-based DC on a creature with +18 Con. It's very powerful.

Also, you can't rely too much on outsider HD to provide a drawback, because outsider HD are the actual good HD. The chassis they provide is as good as it gets, and allows you to add a little more LA without feeling it too badly.

I would put it at +2 or +3.

[Flickerdart]

I would not go higher than +2. Teleporting is cool and BO is cool, but the former becomes a lame trick pretty quick (a standard action is too slow) and the latter runs into immunity, and also is a high save for many monsters from the books.

[TotallyNotEvil]

First of all, I'd like to thank you for doing such great work.

Second, I dearly hope you also do dragons. After all, who has never wished to play a Dragon?

Third, you seem to underestimate some enormous ability bonuses and SLAs (like Greater Teleport, às mentioned above). It's a high level spell on its own and one (the?) of the best forms of locomotion you can get. Your level of play seems to be far higher than the usual optimization I face, but that might be generating a certain level of tunnel vision.

[Troacctid]

I think the issue is less about optimization level and more about undervaluing the difference between different types of HD. Most creature types, 10 HD would be crippling. But outsider and dragon HD are better than some actual classes, so you can't necessarily just say "Oh, it has a bunch of racial HD, it wouldn't be fair to toss a level adjustment on top of all that," like you can for humanoids or undead or whatever. I mean, I'd rather be a Barbarian 1/Dragon or Outsider X than a Barbarian X+1 any day of the week, for example.


Teleporting is cool and BO is cool, but the former becomes a lame trick pretty quick (a standard action is too slow)
Disagree. You can instantly travel anywhere on the plane! That's crazy good at any level!

[Draconium]

Second, I dearly hope you also do dragons. After all, who has never wished to play a Dragon?

Patience, young Padawan. Our time will come.

[Thurbane]

Not that it should affect LA, but CL on innate abilities can be boosted by up to 4 levels (but no greater than total HD) by the Practiced Magic feat.

It's in the Shackled City hardcover, so it has the same "official" status as stuff from the Dragon Compendium.

It's works pretty much exactly like Practiced Spellcaster, but for SLAs.

[Inevitability]

I think people are overrating Greater Teleport. The normal spell may be good, but this version is severely limited in its uses.

You can warp to the BBEG's dungeon... but though you can go there yourself, no one can come along. Have fun fighting encounters meant for a party of four by yourself!

You can bypass the hallway of traps or the locked door... but again, you're on your own. If anything dangerous is behind them, you don't have your party members backing you.

You can travel to the other side of the continent to deliver a message... but Sending is already available and has the advantage of working across planar barriers.

You can move around the battlefield with impunity... but so can any character with the right gear or spells, and they can probably do so as a move or swift action.

You can flee a horde of monsters... and leave your party to die. I doubt this monster deserves increased LA for being good at fleeing.

The point is that unless everyone can teleport, you'll be limited to solving your own problems, not the party's.


Also remember that you're 13th-level already. A wizard or travel cleric can cast Greater Teleport several times per day if he needs to. A non-travel cleric can cast it at will for a few minutes every day with Holy Transformation. A class such as the dread necromancer can duplicate its effects by binding a demon or devil. Even a simple tier 4 class such as the rogue can just buy a scroll for under 2300 GP and UMD it.


On Stench: a random sampling of CR 13 monsters in the SRD revealed that about a third were immune to poison. If we take a look at the monsters PC's will actually face (including templated ones), that number goes up, as immunity or at least countermeasures to poison are an obvious pick for monster gear. Furthermore, most of the non-poison-immune monsters had good fortitude saving throws or possessed the ability to leave combat when nauseated and return a few rounds later.


TotallyNotEvil, I'm not seeing the enormous ability bonuses. There's the constitution increase, but constitution isn't really that useful until you have powerful innate abilities (no, stench doesn't count). Being good at surviving does not a useful party member make. The strength bonus is big, but not 'enormous', and definitely not unreasonable for a character of this level (remember, strength is easiest of all stats to raise). The other ability scores are neat, but not unattainable at this level, not to mention that you won't need all of them.

[Fizban]

I believe you are seriously undervaluing at-will abilities. Those teleport plans are all coming from the headspace where you have a daily limit. At-will greater teleport means being 3 seconds away from the magic shop, or buffing/healing/information/whatever NPC, or whatever important location at all times, and 3 seconds to get back to where you were. It means being able to ferry 250lbs of goods per minute, without jumping through the hoops of calling an outsider to do it because you already can and the security of knowing only you handled the goods. It means being able to reach any location with nothing but a "reliable description," 3 seconds after hearing that description, without impacting your combat ability whatsoever on arrival. It means being anywhere you want to be right now, and in a world that includes anything other than a single dungeon that is invaluable.

Basically, any argument that starts with "well a wizard can do it several times per day," should be immediately questioned with "and what would happen if they could do it at-will?" I also tend to discount any argument that begins with "well stats are easy to raise," because stats are easy to raise.

As for stench, so what if 1/3 of those targets are immune to it? There are plenty of creatures immune to fire or instant death and plenty more assumed magic items to do the same, yet those abilities are still counted as useful. Anyone who's not immune gets hit with a no-action save or lose as soon as you enter range, the equivalent of Quickened Stinking Cloud at-will, with a far higher save DC. That is not nothing. In fact it combines perfectly with at-will teleport, since your teleport bomb includes a save or lose before you've even rolled for initiative, before anyone has a chance to activate a buff or even make an immediate action since they're flat-footed.

The most appropriate comparison for at-will abilities is a Warlock. At 10HD and LA+4 the Hezrou would have the same BAB as a warlock, with better teleportation, better save-or-lose, better skills, better hp, better weapons, better armor (no spell failure), waaaaaay better stats, better immunities, and so on. You can say the warlock is underpowered, but it is also the only class that actually has at-will spells as it's main feature and it doesn't come close to these for a reason. Hezrous effectively have two extremely good 7th level spells at-will, plus a couple more, plus a body designed to not need magic items which will then be covered in magic items. The Hound Archon might get away with a low LA, but their best stat bonus is a single +4 and no offensive magic.

[Metahuman1]

Yup. Not as though the Dragonfire Adept or the Binder or Martial Initiators or Incarnum Classes have a kinds of spiffy at will tricks.




Or that the Warlock is second as an Item Crafting Character only to the Tier 1 Artificer.



Sorry, not seeing it. It honestly sounds like "It's really good for melee as opposed to caster builds, so, it should be penalized for being a race that brings nice things to the table for that." Maybe that's not what's intended, but that is the vibe your giving off.






Besides, wasn't part of the point here to take Races with Prohibitively High level adjustments and recalibrate based on what they get (as well as Racial hit dice.) down to reasonable territory?

[Troacctid]

Yup. Not as though the Dragonfire Adept or the Binder or Martial Initiators or Incarnum Classes have a kinds of spiffy at will tricks.
All those are basically on the same level as the warlock. (Except initiators, who aren't a good comparison due to lack of magic.) At +1 LA, I think the hezrou would easily out-power them all.


Besides, wasn't part of the point here to take Races with Prohibitively High level adjustments and recalibrate based on what they get (as well as Racial hit dice.) down to reasonable territory?
Well yeah. Nobody is suggesting leaving the hezrou at +9 (as it is in the book). That's clearly unplayable. But I think +1 is too far in the other direction.

[Metahuman1]

Warlock is considered Tier 4 sans major major optimization and/or abuse.


Totemist, Dragonfire Adept, Incanate, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader and Binder are ALL Tier 3 sans bits of odd ball support that seldom get's used like some of the Online Vestiges.

And at same level, he might out raw power some of them assuming comparable optimization, But there are others on there, even none marital initiates (Hello Melee Totemist with at will Flesh to Stone which I think was also a free action.), could win that fight as often as they loose.







And 4 LA, which was suggested above for this monster, usually IS unplayable, since you now can't buy it off at all sans Homebrew/House Rules/Epic rules. How many LA +4 Templates or Races do you know of that are playable? There's one that's LA 5 which I think was in the MM 2 and was so broken that I refuse to believe it wasn't a series of typo's and editing errors, The MM 1 Pixie but only on certain specialized builds, and Maybe, arguably, the Lich. Maybe. I'm skeptical on that one as experience has been that trying to get Lichdome online as a PC has this nasty habit of getting that PC killed and not in the now I'm undead kind of way.

That's what I was responding too by pointing this out. "We lowered it but not enough to actually accomplish the goal." is not "We made it playable."

I could Maybe, MAYBE entertain an argument for LA 2, but that would be pushing it and anything above that for what your actually getting is right out.

[Fizban]

Or that the Warlock is second as an Item Crafting Character only to the Tier 1 Artificer.
And it is a pale, pale second, for one of the more volatile paths to tier-1-dom.

Sorry, not seeing it. It honestly sounds like "It's really good for melee as opposed to caster builds, so, it should be penalized for being a race that brings nice things to the table for that." Maybe that's not what's intended, but that is the vibe your giving off.
And I honestly don't understand where you're seeing that when almost my entire focus was on the magic. Having powerful at-will spells has nothing to do with melee builds, the melee effects are only worth mentioning because even if we equate the Hezrou's abilities with a Warlock (and they are not equal) it still comes out ahead. Greater Teleport at-will, ultra-Quickened Stinking Cloud at-will, and +18 con are not "nice things," they're "omgwtf huge" things.

To reiterate Troacctid's point, Outsider HD have full BAB, all high saves, and 8+int skill points, a combination unmatched by any actual class. I would spend 3-4 levels and my literal arms and legs to play a Lantern Archon, just for the Greater Teleport at-will. A Hezrou gains that, plus abilities that are easily worth 10 levels of a class with it's 10HD.

[Troacctid]

Don't forget that unholy blight and chaos hammer also compare pretty damn favorably against eldritch blast, and they're not even your best attack option.

[Inevitability]

I'm wondering if I should just set up a PbP thread where various of this thread's monsters are run through the same dungeons as same-level humanoid adventurers and see which one is more useful.


To stay on-topic, I'm feeling like some people here are fixated on at-will abilities. The point is: very often an at-will ability won't be used very often. Take Unholy Blight/Chaos Hammer. Yes, it does give you an at-will ability equal to a 4th-level spell, but a 13th-level warmage can already cast 20 such spells a day: more than enough to use one every round every encounter and still have some left over. Yes, if you have to blast a bunch of Good or Lawful creatures every round an entire day, the Hezrou comes out on top, but how often does that happen?

Similarly, how often do you need to teleport yourself (and only yourself) repeatedly between places while being able to move only 50 lb. per twelve seconds? If your answer is less than 'a few times per day', then an unoptimized caster can do the same.

13th-level adventures tend to be about stopping extraplanar threats or exploring forgotten temples, not about quickly moving a few tons of goods.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with the 50lb limit is - what if you have more than 50lb of gear? Hezrous are Large, which means their gear weighs twice as much as normal. Want a full plate? That weighs 100 pounds by itself.

[InvisibleBison]

The problem with the 50lb limit is - what if you have more than 50lb of gear? Hezrous are Large, which means their gear weighs twice as much as normal. Want a full plate? That weighs 100 pounds by itself.

You'd probably have to stick all your stuff in a bag of holding, which does make teleporting somewhat inconvenient.

[Segev]

I confess that, for simplicity's sake, I generally assume (as what is probably a house rule) that whatever you're wearing - and backpacks are "carried" rather than "worn" for this purpose - doesn't count against that weight limit.

If you try to stretch "wearing" at all, I would look askance at you. This is why backpacks don't count as "worn" in this case. But armor? You're wearing it. The stuff in your pockets? You're not wearing it; you're carrying it. ...I suppose I'd let the backpack itself slide, but not its contents.

[Fizban]

I'm wondering if I should just set up a PbP thread where various of this thread's monsters are run through the same dungeons as same-level humanoid adventurers and see which one is more useful.
For higher variance, compare monster PCs from this very thread. A Lantern Archon with 7-8 levels or a Hound Archon with 4 levels, compared to a Hezrou which you currently want to place at ECL 11. The Hezrou will rofflestomp them in usefulness for anything other than preventing mind control.

The point is: very often an at-will ability won't be used very often.
If your players aren't utilizing their at-will abilities, the weakness is with the players and the not the abilities. Any creature with an at-will should naturally spam that ability at every possible opportunity to leverage their advantage, and the expectation is that a player choosing such an ability will do so the same as they would any class feature.

Similarly, how often do you need to teleport yourself (and only yourself) repeatedly between places while being able to move only 50 lb. per twelve seconds? If your answer is less than 'a few times per day', then an unoptimized caster can do the same.
Good thing my answer wasn't less than a few times per day. Creatures with Greater Teleport at-will don't teleport a few times per day, they teleport every time they want to travel more than 60' in a round. They literally do not think in terms of travel time, because they do not spend time traveling. It is not about how many times you need to teleport, it's about how many times you can, and what you can do with it. Being able to immediately acquire new gear, information, or even buffs mid-dungeon or even mid-combat is crazy good with even the slightest amount of thought. Combined with the other at-wills you are also a hit and run machine, able to stench bomb or just teleport+sneak your way up to people and drop a blight/hammer and teleport out, all day. It doesn't matter if there are some situations where these don't apply, because when they do it's such a huge advantage it must have a price.

13th-level adventures tend to be about stopping extraplanar threats or exploring forgotten temples, not about quickly moving a few tons of goods.
And one of the main pacing limitations on those adventures is the fact that the PCs can only teleport every so often, that every time they return to town that's another pile of spells gone.

The problem with the 50lb limit is - what if you have more than 50lb of gear? Hezrous are Large, which means their gear weighs twice as much as normal. Want a full plate? That weighs 100 pounds by itself.
Bro, do you even magic?

[ExLibrisMortis]

It is not about how many times you need to teleport, it's about how many times you can, and what you can do with it.
That's where you're wrong. You can use greater teleport 14400 times per day, but that's not what players care about - it's about how often the spell actually solves a (significant) challenge - does something XP-worthy, if you will. The party needs to teleport a couple of times a day at most (and probably not every day); only when there is time pressure. The rest of the time, travelling time is downtime, handwaved, not played out. The same goes for 'administrative' problems, like selling loot and moving supplies: better to relegate them to the background, be it a bag of holding or a teleporting hezrou with a steady buyer.

Also remember this:
[...] unless everyone can teleport, you'll be limited to solving your own problems, not the party's.And if the party can all teleport, then it's all nicely balanced.

[Gildedragon]

I think people are overrating Greater Teleport. The normal spell may be good, but this version is severely limited in its uses.

You can warp to the BBEG's dungeon... but though you can go there yourself, no one can come along. Have fun fighting encounters meant for a party of four by yourself!

You can bypass the hallway of traps or the locked door... but again, you're on your own. If anything dangerous is behind them, you don't have your party members backing you.

You can travel to the other side of the continent to deliver a message... but Sending is already available and has the advantage of working across planar barriers.

You can move around the battlefield with impunity... but so can any character with the right gear or spells, and they can probably do so as a move or swift action.

You can flee a horde of monsters... and leave your party to die. I doubt this monster deserves increased LA for being good at fleeing.

The point is that unless everyone can teleport, you'll be limited to solving your own problems, not the party's.


Two words:
Enveloping Pit
(or)
Portable Hole

Teleport self only and bring all your friends along

[Metahuman1]

And I honestly don't understand where you're seeing that when almost my entire focus was on the magic. Having powerful at-will spells has nothing to do with melee builds, the melee effects are only worth mentioning because even if we equate the Hezrou's abilities with a Warlock (and they are not equal) it still comes out ahead. Greater Teleport at-will, ultra-Quickened Stinking Cloud at-will, and +18 con are not "nice things," they're "omgwtf huge" things.

To reiterate Troacctid's point, Outsider HD have full BAB, all high saves, and 8+int skill points, a combination unmatched by any actual class. I would spend 3-4 levels and my literal arms and legs to play a Lantern Archon, just for the Greater Teleport at-will. A Hezrou gains that, plus abilities that are easily worth 10 levels of a class with it's 10HD.

If your logic held water, Warlock and DFA would be Tier 2 maybe even Tier 1 out of the box. They are not. Not by a long shot. At Wills are nice, but there not THAT powerful all on there own. And again, you can only teleport you, and you can bring very little extra gear and can't Melee attack the round you arrive. Meaning the utility is there and it's nice to have but several of the more powerful and useful applications for most games are off the table right at the get go.



Yes, they have the saves, HD size with a decent Con Mod, speaking of Con Mod the physical and mental stat boosts and BAB, to actually function in Melee above level 5-6 with out relying entirely on some kind of magic or there gear. Skills give them the ability to not fall into the Fighter trap and only be able to hit things with a stick and that's the start middle and end of there options. They have a couple of special abilitys and immunity which overcome the problems of normal Melee/Skill Monkey classes and open them up to feats with out having to jump through major hoops or just be a mage of some kind in order to surmount, as well as save them enough gold that they might be able to keep up with things like the price of Magic weapons.

Yes, it's worth 10 levels of a class, at 10th level. Meaning your on roughly on par with the Warblade, Swordsage, Factotum, Cursader, Psi-warrior, Incarent, Binder, Totemist, Beguiler, Bard, Dread Necromancer, Wild Shape or Mystic Ranger or Dragonfire Adept. Congrats, your more or less balanced.




Particularly since your other At wills only serve to surmount the problem of lack of ranged options meaning you can focus more attention on bashing things safely, and not divide otherwise overly restricted resources trying to do both.






Also, don't just look at total monsters. Look at the ones that get used a lot. Undead. Constructs. Outsiders. Dragons. Giants. You might be starting to notice a bit of a trend of Immunity or a very wonderful Fort Save that will far more often then not beat your Stink Aura thing.

[Fizban]

That's where you're wrong. You can use greater teleport 14400 times per day, but that's not what players care about - it's about how often the spell actually solves a (significant) challenge - does something XP-worthy, if you will. The party needs to teleport a couple of times a day at most (and probably not every day); only when there is time pressure. The rest of the time, travelling time is downtime, handwaved, not played out. The same goes for 'administrative' problems, like selling loot and moving supplies: better to relegate them to the background, be it a bag of holding or a teleporting hezrou with a steady buyer.
If you can't think of a way to turn instantaneous teleportation to anywhere into an advantage in any way other than "directly solves a challenge," then I can't help you. That's like saying the ability to craft an item or memorize a spell isn't a significant advantage because the action of preparation doesn't kill anything, like the fact that your friends can't cast the spells you've memorized makes them any less powerful. This is the sort of mentality that made WotC think blasting was still more powerful than save or lose.

It's like the second you say "wizard" everyone assumes godlike power because magic+creativity=win, but if you say "not wizard" only the most banal logic applies and nothing could possibly be overpowered, even when that ability is something a wizard would gladly lose caster levels for. Happens a lot actually.

Also remember this:And if the party can all teleport, then it's all nicely balanced.
If anything, the more people who can teleport the more obvious it is that your at-will greater version is ridiculously better, as every teleport based plan they try has a limit that yours do not. See also, "Bro, do you even magic?" for the fact that a 5,000gp Bag of Holding is easily enough to transport party members one or two at a time. The only limit is that you can't teleport bomb the whole party in, but teleport bombs are the only situation where a limit on uses doesn't matter since your goal is to kill them in this one fight. But since that seems to be the extent of everyone's ideas, well I guess it's not overpowered :smallsigh:

If your logic held water, Warlock and DFA would be Tier 2 maybe even Tier 1 out of the box
Warlock and DFA are specifically lacking in effects as powerful as the Hezrou's and that is why they are weaker, even before. . .

Yes, they have the saves, HD size with a decent Con Mod, speaking of Con Mod the physical and mental stat boosts and BAB, to actually function in Melee above level 5-6 with out relying entirely on some kind of magic or there gear. Skills give them the ability to not fall into the Fighter trap and only be able to hit things with a stick and that's the start middle and end of there options. They have a couple of special abilitys and immunity which overcome the problems of normal Melee/Skill Monkey classes and open them up to feats with out having to jump through major hoops or just be a mage of some kind in order to surmount, as well as save them enough gold that they might be able to keep up with things like the price of Magic weapons.
This entire paragraph detailing line by line how the Hezrou is better than the other classes. You are literally arguing that they are the same strength as other classes, because of all the advantages they have which make them better at their job than those classes.

Yes, it's worth 10 levels of a class, at 10th level. Meaning your on roughly on par with the Warblade, Swordsage, Factotum, Cursader, Psi-warrior, Incarent, Binder, Totemist, Beguiler, Bard, Dread Necromancer, Wild Shape or Mystic Ranger or Dragonfire Adept. Congrats, your more or less balanced.
Considering how those classes are all over the place in terms of balance, I am rather skeptical of your assertions. No martial adept can force a save or lose with a free action against a single target let alone multiple (and barely any of these can even try), no class in the game can greater teleport at-will period (Warlocks get Shadow Walk, a spell which is covered in restrictions, at 16th level), none of those classes has 8+int skills, and suggesting that incarnum can match this isn't even a good joke.

Particularly since your other At wills only serve to surmount the problem of lack of ranged options meaning you can focus more attention on bashing things safely, and not divide otherwise overly restricted resources trying to do both.
Yes, because instead of buying a bow a melee character should just be given free Eldritch Blast+Sickening Blast+"fireball blast" which doesn't even exist. Or instead of avoiding melee a Warlock should just be given the body of an intermediate demon.

Also, don't just look at total monsters. Look at the ones that get used a lot. Undead. Constructs. Outsiders. Dragons. Giants. You might be starting to notice a bit of a trend of Immunity or a very wonderful Fort Save that will far more often then not beat your Stink Aura thing.
Can I call this "Schrodinger's Monster?" The assumption that something is balanced just because some monsters are immune to it, especially because the monsters you personally prefer have said immunity, so it's not like that ability will ever really matter will it? Hezrou stench isn't that big of a deal for players to have, since as long as they fight other Hezrous it doesn't count?

But hey, let's get detailed: Undead tend towards low hp and their threat is significantly reduced by your own ridiculous fort save even before magic items. Constructs are dumb and short range, will lose to teleport skirmishing if you have anything that can damage them, and you have DR. Dragons will have fun trying to chip at you through your wide spectrum energy resistance, high saves, and DR 10/a thing dragons don't have. So that leaves. . . Giants, who are also massively blunted by your DR.

Gee, it's almost as if a creature with a massive set of defenses and powerful at-will abilities meant to force PCs to be prepared, has a massive set of defenses and powerful at-will abilities that the vast majority of monsters are completely unprepared to deal with. Seriously, someone upthread said that poison immunity is an obvious choice for monster gear. What? Since when? PC rarely use poison of any type and monsters have no reason to expect it from them, immunity is a standard goal for PCs (and a Hezrou PC gets it for free!). And you're ignoring the actual antagonists, the most obvious that you should have brought up from the start: Celestials and Inevitables. Those are the only things I see giving you serious trouble, and that's because Celestials are just straight up better than Fiends. Even then your combat stats compare favorably thanks to their deflated hit dice and your magic items. ECL 14 would match with Dire_Stirge's current Astral Deva, and the deva's magic is significantly lacking in teleport.

+4 LA, and only if the rest of the party are playing builds that can actually match it. I also didn't jump on the Glabrezu earlier, but it should go up to at least +4 for similar reasons.

[Troacctid]

no class in the game can greater teleport at-will period (Warlocks get Shadow Walk, a spell which is covered in restrictions, at 16th level)
Actually, warlocks can get it as an epic invocation at level 21.

...That's all I have to add to that. Carry on.

[Inevitability]

In a (probably futile) attempt to stop the endless discussion of a single monster and start working on some new material, I'll raise the Hezrou LA to +3. I hope everyone can more-or-less see themselves playing this compromise.

[Troacctid]

I like it at +2 or +3. Would definitely be willing to play one at +2, would still consider playing one at +3.

[Metahuman1]

+2 would be perfectly fine. +3 would be maybe maybe maybe workable. I don't personally think I'd ever even consider playing it except maybe in a Gestalt game at that LA. But I could see others maybe thinking about doing so.



Fizban:

1: I will be coming back to this point as part of the overall point.

2:Not the logic you'd been claiming or that I responded to with that point.

2: A fighter is better then a Complete Warrior Samurai. It's still a bad bad bad class, but it's better then a Complete Warrior Samurai. Or an NPC class. This doesn't make it good, or broken. A Warblade or Binder or Factotum or Wildshape Ranger are all better then a fighter by a long shot, and even more so then the Complete Warrior Samurai or NPC classes. And yet, shockingly, these things are not broken classes either. There good and playable, but by no means broken.

Also, please, tell me more about how a Chassie all by it's own is automatically better then good solid well built class features and access to magical ability that are not a short list of specific SLA's that can't and don't change intrinsically in and of itself. Cause that's the argument your trying to sell.

3: No, no those classes are NOT all over the place in terms of balance. Official listing puts them all in the same stones thrown of balance. Tier 3. Also known as "Generally the optimal balance point for the majority of groups and games that don't go out of there way to be otherwise." The only one's not listed are Mystic Ranger, Dragon Fire Adept, Totemist and Incarnate. All of which are considered in Tier 3 by general consensus in the optimization community. The only one of those four that's really argued is the Totemist, with some feeling it's a VERY high Tier 4 that borders on Tier 3. Incidentally, the only one on that list that get's possible Tier 2 Status is Binder with access to the Online Web Article Vestiges.

So yeah, there all at the same range of balance, the overall optimal range for the vast majority of groups and games and play, Tier 3. And as was this class kept up with that. THAT'S SUPPOSE TO BE THE GOAL!!!!!!!!!!

4: Fallacy. If you know how the game and WBL works you probably know why, so I will move on.

5: Because obviously in a game called dungeons and dragons I am in an extreme minority of people who would fight dragons, and in a game were I can play an outsider I would be in the extreme minority of people whom would have it fight an outsider. :small annoyed:

A significant majority of the Iconic Monsters and monster types, as well as the thematic ones, that see LOT'S of play over, and over, and over, and over again, will either be immune too it, have a stupidly high Fort save so that it's not a major problem for them the bulk of the time but does work every now and then, or have enough magic access backing them that having castings or potions of a spell to protect against the stink class feature will be no great hardship at all.




Right, several of these points have lead me to the conclusion that honestly, you've allowed some manner of bias to color your judgement on this monster and possibly others of it's type, or, in particular in light of evidently not knowing how the Tier system works and what classes are were on it and seeming to feel that when you fix the problem by letting EVERYONE in the party have the relevant ability and just plan accordingly it has actually made the problem worse and demands one player be singled out and have there character be crippled in response, that you perhaps should consider some reassessment. Cause making that kind of argument or indicating you don't know how that system works does present you as either having a Bias, or not as firm a grasp on mechanics and optimization as you might feel you do. I'm leaning toward the personal Bias myself.





LA +4, which you keep Advocating, is an automatic killing of a character race in terms of being used for a PC race. I can literally count the exceptions on one hand and have fingers, plural, left over. It can kinda be made to work in Gestalt but failing that, nothing doing. LA 3 is devastating and the much more powerful form a PC stand point Lantern Archon is sitting good there. Again, the MORE powerful race form a PC stand point overall. That's the one that's balanced at LA 3.

LA +4 is a death sentence. It's making sure the race either won't see play, or won't get to do anything worth while in it's career cause it will be too badly crippled. The LA it does have now, that's likely gonna mean rarely used and only with extenuating circumstances if ever.

So I gotta think either you really don't realize this, or you really just hate either this monster or this monster type enough that you either don't care or do and want that to happen to them. And I certainly don't, I WANT monsters to be as playable as possible, I WANT them to be effective when played. That's the whole point. Not to do some weird fantasy Gene Roddenberry thing were humans are so amazing and every other race just sucks no matter what, even when there gods in all but name.


I am bringing this point up in the hopes it can be calmly taken into consideration, so that the next time an outsider comes up on the table or other powerful race, like, say, Dragons, we can move along with out an immediate jump to "Let's give it a different unplayable LA that's lower but still unplayable!". Cause that defeats the purpose.

[Troacctid]

3: No, no those classes are NOT all over the place in terms of balance. Official listing puts them all in the same stones thrown of balance. Tier 3.
Official listing? Really?

[khadgar567]

would you guys please let stirge continue the treat there is lot of monsters waiting to be rerated as properly

[Fizban]

Actually, warlocks can get it as an epic invocation at level 21.

...That's all I have to add to that. Carry on.
Good catch, was ready for someone to find one I'd missed but I'd forgotten there's actual epic warlock material.

In a (probably futile) attempt to stop the endless discussion of a single monster and start working on some new material, I'll raise the Hezrou LA to +3. I hope everyone can more-or-less see themselves playing this compromise.
I can accept that, getting the dissent within one point of your own shot is basically a win. Starting from +3 means you can swing either way, +4 shouldn't cause too much pushback and even if dropped to +2 it's paid enough that the rest might be handled by personal restraint, knowing that it started at +3.

[Inevitability]

Marilith

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/8/88/Marilith.jpg/250px-Marilith.jpg

Looks like the abyssal plane has snakes on it too! (don't hit me)

Mariliths are of course best known for their six arms. This allows for a variety of fighting styles, from wielding one really big greataxe to six-weapon-fighting. Note that the latter will eat up a huge chunk of your wealth, so know what you're getting yourself into!

The demons have great ability scores. Strength and constitution are nearly 30, with all other scores at least 18. They're also Large (reach!), fast and can grapple and constrict people with their tail. The constriction has the added bonus of causing people to pass out if they fail a saving throw: too bad nearly everything can be immune to it at this level.

SLA's are a mixed bunch. Magic Weapon is completely useless at this level, Align Weapon duplicates an ability you innately possess, so it's only useful to buff allies' weaponry against a handful of specific enemies. Greater Teleport is useful, but not incredibly special at this level anymore. See Invisibility is completely useless as far as I can see, because you already have continuous True Seeing. Project Image may be potent, but I can't help but dislike it because of the short range and mandatory line of effect. Finally, there is Blade Barrier (solid damage), Telekinesis (versatile) and Unholy Aura (useful when fighting do-gooders).

Mariliths can summon a bunch of dretches, a hezrou or a nalfeshnee. They can also attempt to summon a glabrezu or marilith, but the chance of success will be greatly reduced.

What LA to put here? I tend towards something in the +1 - +3 range. Because a dip to get pounce in whatever class gives it is more-or-less mandatory on a melee character, and because I want to allow for at least one more level beyond said dip, I'm tending towards +2.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm pretty sure the reason it gets Magic Weapon SLA is to give all its weapons a +1. Not that its a particularly effective strategy, your pre-battle buffing takes half a minute. Still pretty worthless though.

[Troacctid]

Because a dip to get pounce in whatever class gives it is more-or-less mandatory on a melee character
You mean barbarian. It's okay, you can say it, we all know you're talking about barbarian. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

I'm pretty sure the reason it gets Magic Weapon SLA is to give all its weapons a +1. Not that its a particularly effective strategy, your pre-battle buffing takes half a minute. Still pretty worthless though.

I know why it gets MW, and it may actually be mildly useful if the marilith's a wandering monster, but a PC shouldn't be walking around with nonmagical weapons at this level, not even if you're sextuple-wielding.

[Inevitability]

Nalfeshnee

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/c/c9/Nalfeshnee.jpg/250px-Nalfeshnee.jpg

The Nalfeshnee is a high-ranking demon, somewhere between the Glabrezu and Marilith in the abyssal hierarchy.

Nalfeshnees have the standard things one would expect of a demon: natural armor, high stats, energy immunities, SR, DR, telepathy and energy resistances. They're Huge with 15 feet reach, making them good for meleeers. Nalfeshnees also have two claw attacks and a bite attack, but the claw damage is only 1d8 and I'd recommend just grabbing a greatsword.

The demons possess several special abilities. Most iconic is the confusingly-named 'Smite'. It's a delayed daze effect that doesn't affect demons. Interesting, and the strange name allows feats like Sapphire Smite to boost it.

The spell-likes are not too great, but there's a few good ones. Call Lightning deals pitiful damage, even when used in a stormy area (which you have no way of generating). Feeblemind is a death sentence for arcane casters, but it's been available for quite a while now and you won't need it too often. Greater Dispel Magic will of course always be useful. Slow is a good debuff, but again far too low-level. Greater Teleport is par for the course on a demon, and Unholy Aura remains a decent party-wide buff.

Finally, nalfeshness can summon vrocks, hezrous, a glabrezu or another nalfeshnee: let's just say there's worse things to summon.

All in all, nalfeshnees are not bad, but they lack the strong, unique abilities other demons seem to possess. They seem about equal in power to a glabrezu to me: while they can summon the latter, they can only do so for an hour per day at most. +1 LA for now.

[Thurbane]

I'm really digging the PF demon artwork!

[Segev]

I actually seriously dislike the PF Marilith art. But to each his own.

[Inevitability]

Quasit

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/e/e9/Quasit.jpg/250px-Quasit.jpg

The quasit: another of the odd demons that lacks the tanar'ri subtype.

Quasits have a reasonable chassis for a creature of their HD. They receive bonuses to dexterity and wisdom and a penalty to strength, have weak natural weapons (with semi-useful poison) and some natural armor. Their fly speed is great, their landspeed adequate. Finally, there's fast healing, DR, poison immunity and fire resistance: all good things to have.

The tiny demons possess a few SLA's: Detect Good probably won't be so great (even in an evil campaign, many foes will be nongood) but Detect Magic is useful to have (as long as you don't have a warlock in the party). Self-only invisibility is wonderful at this level, especially if you can find a way to damage foes without breaking it (I find reserve feats useful there).

They can also use Cause Fear with a 30 foot-radius once per day, which you'll get to use a few times before it gets obsolete. Sadly, due to the way PC and monster HD fail to match up and the awkward radius, you'll send your allies running more often than your enemies.

Their last SLA, Commune, can be very impressive or very underwhelming, depending on who's behind the screen. The utility of the spell is highly DM-dependent, after all. It can either be a limitless source of information, or it can be the DM pointing you towards the plot you would've stumbled upon anyway.

Finally, there's Alternate Form. Quasits get to pick two forms from a list of five. I would pick wolf and centipede myself, but it depends on your campaign. The alternate forms are unlikely to give you something you don't already have, though.

The various abilities a quasit gives, combined with its excellent RHD, make +0 LA inappropriate. I'll put them at +1 instead.

[Troacctid]

Quasit is way too good for +0. Forget about 9th level spells. You're talking about exactly level 20 and no other levels. You can't balance for only one level.

I'd be with you if it were a humanoid, but this is an outsider. 3 HD are barely a drawback at all. Especially since you can go into Ur-Priest or Ardent or Sublime Chord and have full 9ths anyway, not even behind schedule.

[Inevitability]

Quasit is way too good for +0. Forget about 9th level spells. You're talking about exactly level 20 and no other levels. You can't balance for only one level.

I'd be with you if it were a humanoid, but this is an outsider. 3 HD are barely a drawback at all. Especially since you can go into Ur-Priest or Ardent or Sublime Chord and have full 9ths anyway, not even behind schedule.

I'll wait and see what others think first before raising the LA, okay?

[Segev]

I'd give it a +1 or a +2 LA. I know you're not balancing for the LA-buyoff rules, but I will say that any DM who is willing to consider a Quasit having 9th level spells will likely be willing to use such rules. Otherwise, don't bother balancing for level 20-only. Really, the ideal thing is to balance for the level that they can enter play. If they drop off in effectiveness after that, then...well, that's why LA-buyoff rules exist as an option.

[Inevitability]

Good point. LA increased to +1.

[Inevitability]

Retriever

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/rollplaydnd/images/2/25/Retriever.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140915230705

How are these things 'demons' again? They lack any alignment or demonic subtype and are constructs rather than outsiders. Sure, they're CE abyssals, but so are bodaks and fiendish octopuses. Guess I'll just blame it on WotC being inconsistent again.

Retrievers have 10 HD. Rather than the sweet, sweet outsider HD all 'demons' up till now had, they're construct HD. See for yourself how bad they are.

Construct type, on the other hand, is pretty great, mostly because of the immunities. I'd list them, but I want to keep this post brief. The bonus HP you get do a decent job at making up for the retriever's lack of constitution, but I'd look into ways to increase toughness anyway.

Retrievers have a decent chassis. High strength, huge size and a bite attack (which you can wield a mouthpick weapon in) equal a strong meleeer, and four claws only add to the damage. Dexterity is good for a Huge being, but wisdom and charisma (especially charisma) leave much to be desired. Then again, if the party wants a 20-feet-tall iron demon spider to be the face, one should find a new party.

Then there's the random abilities every 'demon' seems to get. Improved Grab, which would be useful if any retriever wasn't going to use its mouth for weapon-wielding, Discern Location, a powerful spell with doubtful usefulness, and finally: four eye rays to pick from each round. Over the course of four rounds, a retriever will be dealing 36d6 points of various elemental damages and forcing a saving throw versus petrification, without having to spend any meaningful actions on this.

Almost forgot: retrievers also have fast healing. Useful on a creature that doesn't heal naturally, I guess.

What's a retriever worth? They're great at damaging stuff, but not outstandingly so. If it weren't for their eye rays, I'd put them at +1: about equal to other bruisers such as the bulette. With the eye rays, I feel +2 is in order: retrievers are simply too strong otherwise.

[Segev]

Don't retrievers have "--" for intelligence? I suppose LA is still useful as a cohort guide, maybe. Though constructs...theoretically, they can be built. Aren't bebiliths noted to be the demon on which retrievers are "probably" modeled?

This is one of those things that I suspect is a legacy monster from a relatively obscure campaign module that gave more detail on them and why they are what they are, but had those details stripped to be made generic enough for any game. And is the poorer for it, because there's no obvious reason they are as they are.

[Inevitability]

Don't retrievers have "--" for intelligence? I suppose LA is still useful as a cohort guide, maybe. Though constructs...theoretically, they can be built. Aren't bebiliths noted to be the demon on which retrievers are "probably" modeled?

This is one of those things that I suspect is a legacy monster from a relatively obscure campaign module that gave more detail on them and why they are what they are, but had those details stripped to be made generic enough for any game. And is the poorer for it, because there's no obvious reason they are as they are.

I've assigned LA's to several mindless monsters already. In my experience, it's relatively easy to get an intelligence score on a creature, and it's not like doing so would break Retrievers.

Besides, WotC has released mindless monsters with a LA, too. Dustform creatures and hairy spiders come to mind.

[Segev]

I've assigned LA's to several mindless monsters already. In my experience, it's relatively easy to get an intelligence score on a creature, and it's not like doing so would break Retrievers.

Besides, WotC has released mindless monsters with a LA, too. Dustform creatures and hairy spiders come to mind.

Alright! I missed that you'd already set the precedent. My apologies.

[Inevitability]

Succubus

http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/0/0d/Succubus.jpg/250px-Succubus.jpg

Here you go, Khadgar.

Succubi are 6 HD demons with a wide array of powers. Their base chassis is quite nice, with a huge charisma bonus and various bonuses to all other ability scores. DR, SR, immunities and telepathy are all good to have too, of course.

Energy Drain is very flavorful, but not too strong. After all, if you're in a position to plant a kiss on someone, you're also in a position to introduce some knifes to their pancreas. The spell-like abilities are all useful to some degree, but will most likely only be used in social or scouting situations.

Furthermore, succubi have a small chance of summoning a vrock each day. If your primary combat ability is a pair of claws, then a disposable melee summon can certainly be useful.

I already touched on this in the previous paragraph, but succubi lack one thing: combat ability. In a game where some, if not most of all encounters will involve combat, this is bad. Summoning a vrock is only useful for an hour every few days: Charm Monster will only delay fights, not end them, and Energy Drain requires either a noncombat situation or grappling (which succubi don't exactly excel at).

Then again, when assigning LA's I tend to assume the player using the monster is doing so in a game where said monster will be useful. No one is going to play a bulette in an urban intrigue game, so I'm not deducting points for the bulette's lack of social skills. Similarly, the succubus doesn't deserve a LA deduction for failing to be useful in-combat: if someone plays it in a combat-heavy campaign it's their own fault.

In the end, I think a level adjustment of +2 would fit best, though I wonder if I should increase it to +3. As always, the hivemind is welcome to opine about this.

[khadgar567]

Succubus



http://pathfinderwiki.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/0/0d/Succubus.jpg/250px-Succubus.jpg

Here you go, Khadgar.

Succubi are 6 HD demons with a wide array of powers. Their base chassis is quite nice, with a huge charisma bonus and various bonuses to all other ability scores. DR, SR, immunities and telepathy are all good to have too, of course.

Energy Drain is very flavorful, but not too strong. After all, if you're in a position to plant a kiss on someone, you're also in a position to introduce some knifes to their pancreas. The spell-like abilities are all useful to some degree, but will most likely only be used in social or scouting situations.

Furthermore, succubi have a small chance of summoning a vrock each day. If your primary combat ability is a pair of claws, then a disposable melee summon can certainly be useful.

I already touched on this in the previous paragraph, but succubi lack one thing: combat ability. In a game where some, if not most of all encounters will involve combat, this is bad. Summoning a vrock is only useful for an hour every few days: Charm Monster will only delay fights, not end them, and Energy Drain requires either a noncombat situation or grappling (which succubi don't exactly excel at).

Then again, when assigning LA's I tend to assume the player using the monster is doing so in a game where said monster will be useful. No one is going to play a bulette in an urban intrigue game, so I'm not deducting points for the bulette's lack of social skills. Similarly, the succubus doesn't deserve a LA deduction for failing to be useful in-combat: if someone plays it in a combat-heavy campaign it's their own fault.

In the end, I think a level adjustment of +2 would fit best, though I wonder if I should increase it to +3. As always, the hivemind is welcome to opine about this.
from cr 7 to cr 2 i thing i found my new race by the way love the picture

[Inevitability]

from cr 7 to cr 2 i thing i found my new race by the way love the picture

Don't thank me, thank Tyler Walpole. :smalltongue:

[khadgar567]

Don't thank me, thank Tyler Walpole. :smalltongue:
I am thanking alright

[HolyDraconus]

I know you haven't done it yet, but comparing it to the "other" cha based winged monster, the succubi has the better chassis, with TELEPORT. Fluff wise, both can get around in humanoid lands easily, due to one being outright invisible and the other assuming whatever the hell it wants, but the succubi doesn't have a negative stat, has the better abilities and can leave any unfavorable encounter at a moment's notice barring some extra legwork (dimensional lock) put in place.
Its a caster though, that moonlights as a scout, and that's only in social situations..... where scrutiny is more readily available. Personally I see it as a +1. The 6 hit die make it a bit more sturdy than the typical cha based caster, but cha based casters aren't the best kind in 3.5, and general, a level 7 Sorc or even Bard (yes yes I know, Warlock) can replicate the most useful abilities and have far more options on top of that. Half its abilities are geared towards a situation that its natural ability scores state it should NOT be in, with NO real built in damage mitigation, outside flight, which makes it even more apparent that it shouldn't be in melee combat. It NEEDS accelerated casting to stay relevant with the party. And outside of being a Diplomancer's wet dream (heh) doesn't offer the player much that they couldn't have gotten, looted, or crafted by the point the succubi becomes playable. The paladin succubi trope is cute (heh heh) but would of been far better served by playing some other race that didn't have any LA or RHD.
So yeah, +1 LA.

[Metahuman1]

I'll also throw in for LA 1. They've got several tricks, sure, but there too spread around to really capitalize, and they loose a LOT of casting advancement, even though that's were they would ideally want to be as a Sorcerer, Bard, Shugenja, Favored Soul or other Cha based caster.



They can be decent in Paladin of Freedom or Crusader roles, but there not really better then a Goliath, so, there's that.



So yeah, I'm in favor of LA 1.

[Thurbane]

I'd go for LA +2, or LA +3 myself.

If you stop looking at them as casters, there a pretty decent base for a melee build, or skillmonkey build. Outssider HD are very solid for either. It get's a (small) bonus to all physical stats, has an innate fly speed, a respectable natural armor bonus, DR that isn't too shabby (especially before higher levels), and SR that isn't obsolete until upper-mid levels. +16 to Cha? Hello Iaijutsu Focus (you've even got the cross class skill points to burn built right into your RHD). On the skilmonkey front, respectable face, stealth and scouting skills [+8 bonus to Listen and Spot], with 8 skillpoints/level for racial HD, and +6 bonus to Int.

Battle dancer dip for AC, and you could even gish it up (yes, you won't be getting 9ths).

Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Rogue, Factotum etc. would all make fine classes for a Succubus. You won't be getting your higher level class abilities, but if you wanted that, you wouldn't be playing something with 6 RHD to begin with.

I'll stand by LA +2, or even +3 if you're a little conservative like I am.

[HolyDraconus]

I'd go for LA +2, or LA +3 myself.

If you stop looking at them as casters, there a pretty decent base for a melee build, or skillmonkey build. Outssider HD are very solid for either. It get's a (small) bonus to all physical stats, has an innate fly speed, a respectable natural armor bonus, DR that isn't too shabby (especially before higher levels), and SR that isn't obsolete until upper-mid levels. +16 to Cha? Hello Iaijutsu Focus (you've even got the cross class skill points to burn built right into your RHD). On the skilmonkey front, respectable face, stealth and scouting skills [+8 bonus to Listen and Spot], with 8 skillpoints/level for racial HD, and +6 bonus to Int.

Battle dancer dip for AC, and you could even gish it up (yes, you won't be getting 9ths).

Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Rogue, Factotum etc. would all make fine classes for a Succubus. You won't be getting your higher level class abilities, but if you wanted that, you wouldn't be playing something with 6 RHD to begin with.

I'll stand by LA +2, or even +3 if you're a little conservative like I am.

To even start as a succubus, you are mid level, which nerfs the Dr. Your Sr has to deal with characters with way more stats than you have out the gate, but they can just outright kill you instead. +1 is just more playable

[TotallyNotEvil]

I will agree that +2 sounds about right. That's a ECL of 8, and Suggestion, Charm Monster, Ethereal Jaunt and Greater Teleport are all extremely good abilities for that level. Hell, two of those are level 7 spells. A Warlock has eldritch blast and 5 invocations, which must be 2 Lesser and 3 Least. The strongest spells a Bard would know would be three level three spells.

That is, of course, on top of +2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +6 INT, +4 WIS and a whopping +14 CHA, and her Outsider HD.

A Face/Skill monkey with 32 CHA (18 + racial), paired with those at will SLAs, the greatly enhanced survivability that is DR + SR + Resistances + Immunities + all good saves + 9 NA + Stat bonuses + Flight and skill points for days as frosting sounds more than reasonable at level 8.

Hell, you can even take Mindsight without a fuss, as if 100ft telepathy wasn't good enough.

Of course, a Succubus isn't what you should be looking at if you want someone to trade full attacks with a dragon. Even then, tho, a Charm Monster with a DC of 24 will and duration of 12 days will get you as many beatsticks as you can find. Say, a Young Adult Red Dragon (Will +13).

[Thurbane]

To even start as a succubus, you are mid level, which nerfs the Dr. Your Sr has to deal with characters with way more stats than you have out the gate, but they can just outright kill you instead. +1 is just more playable
The DR is cold iron or Good. Not everyone totes around Holy weapons, and yes, while it's exceedingly common for PCs to carry cold iron weapon expressly for DR, a lot of monsters you'll be fighting will not. Your DR should still be relevant - taking 10 off damage isn't that powerful, but it's decent enough not to be ignored.

I'm not sure I follow the SR vs stats comment - I might be misunderstanding your intent, but SR is vs CL, not vs casting stats modifiers.

I understand that +1 LA would make the Succubus more survivable, but I honestly feel I couldn't go lower than LA +2, taking stat adjustments, innate abilities and everything else into account.

[Metahuman1]

The DR is cold iron or Good. Not everyone totes around Holy weapons, and yes, while it's exceedingly common for PCs to carry cold iron weapon expressly for DR, a lot of monsters you'll be fighting will not. Your DR should still be relevant - taking 10 off damage isn't that powerful, but it's decent enough not to be ignored.

I'm not sure I follow the SR vs stats comment - I might be misunderstanding your intent, but SR is vs CL, not vs casting stats modifiers.

I understand that +1 LA would make the Succubus more survivable, but I honestly feel I couldn't go lower than LA +2, taking stat adjustments, innate abilities and everything else into account.

They don't HAVE to have a cold iron weapon though to make the DR largely irrelevant.


Oger. Ranser/Long Spear/Great Club/Glave/Garisume/Greatsword/Falchion/Great Ax.

Couple of situational bonuses to hit, or worse, give it the shock trooper feat. If your game is a touch higher op, A level of Spirit Lion totem Barbarian. (Doesn't even need leap attack.)

It can waste you in one charge attack or very near too it at 6th level. It hits plenty often. It's well within CR to face. And it has at least a fair chance of having the reach to get you while flying.



"But in a social game......"


Palace guards with enlarge person items cause rich guy who's antagonistic to the party then. Boom. Same basic effect even if they have NPC levels. Even a reason for them to attack. Social antagonist came up with a pretext he'll smooth over later with forgery and/or diplomacy as needed, and ordered the guard to "take you." and "over react to any sign of resistance.", meaning kill you so you'd stop messing with there objectives. That literally took longer to type out then think up for me.


Yes, you have some options, but most of them aren't THAT strong on there own. You already can't get 9th or 8th level spells or even 7th level spells far as that goes after you get out of succubus even if there IS LA buy off on the table, as well as the player making a deliberate choice to only take things that advance spell casting. Loosing another caster level means loosing there 6th level spells as well.

There simply is no reason to penalize them. The ability's are spread out enough that she'd maybe be ok in a party were everyone has precisely 1 thing there good at and specialized in, but by the time it's a competently constructed Tier 3 party, she's going to be starting to lag.



So, yeah, I think LA 3 is entirely unplayable and unreasonable for this monster, and LA 2 is probably streaching it but might be tolerable, and honestly I don't think LA 1 would be too little.

[Inevitability]

Ogre. Ranser/Long Spear/Great Club/Glave/Garisume/Greatsword/Falchion/Great Ax.

Couple of situational bonuses to hit, or worse, give it the shock trooper feat. If your game is a touch higher op, A level of Spirit Lion totem Barbarian. (Doesn't even need leap attack.)

It can waste you in one charge attack or very near too it at 6th level. It hits plenty often. It's well within CR to face. And it has at least a fair chance of having the reach to get you while flying.

Sure, a moderately optimized charger can kill you if it gets a hit in. Point is, it can also kill many other ECL 8 characters, because it's a freaking charger.

ECL 8 human bard? Dead. ECL 8 halfling rogue? Dead. ECL 8 half-ogre barbarian? Probably dead too. Even a wizard buffed with Shield, Mage Armor and using Abrupt Jaunt has a fair chance of dying, and you just told us flight is no defense either.

A succubus PC who put a 14 in constitution (not including racial bonuses) has 49 HP (8 + 5 x 4.5 + 6 x 3). A human bard or warlock (which seems like a similar role to me) with the same number of points in constitution has 47 HP (6 + 7 x 3.5 + 8 x 2) Yes, these classes can buff themselves for protection, but the succubus has a number of racial abilities with similar effects.

Honestly, succubi don't seem that squishy to me. They're definitely not fragile enough to warrant lowered LA.

[Metahuman1]

Let's say that Oger/Guard with enlarge Person Item just starts within attack reach, or a 5ft step of one. At level 8, that full attack, with again, just a few minor situational boosts to hit (and since it's most likely fighting you on a battle ground favoring it, particularly again in the social game, it should have that.), is still going to either total you or nearly total you in the first round. And if it doesn't, the damage from a follow up AOO, unless you luck out on it missing or another player interferes with something to save you, healing, Wings of Cover for the AoO to let you get away, ext, will have a better then 50/50 chance of killing you. And THAT'S assuming it doesn't have combat reflexes and extra AOO's to throw at you.



It's not about being charger. It's about it being competently built melee/physical combatant.


Casters are just as bad at this stage with nasty little things like the Orb Line to get around your defenses and the knowledge skills to justify knowing to use them.


The succubus might be better then a fighter on it's own of equal level, might even be better then a bog standard ranger, but she's not better then a well constructed Barbarian or Warlock, and those are at very best high tier 4.



So, yeah, I would defiantly be against raising the LA above +2, as that leaves a monster that can't be played with out Gestalt. I'd actually be in favor of dropping it down to LA 1, or at least, leaving it at LA 2.