Beating freedom of movement?

[Efrate]

So, was browsing through some stuff, and trying to think of any way to counter FoM effects. I thought originally a supernatural effect would but those are explicitly magical as per DMG 289, and FoM shuts them down as does AMF. So I got to thinking, in ring form, is there literally any way short of AMF to actually do anything about this? Dispel has issues with targetting,as does disjunction, and grapple is out. I get a hold with improved grab but then they walk out, though I found one monster in FF that swallows immediately which might come up. Short of mundane rocks falling on their head, is there anything I can do? I know 3.5 is hardly balanced, but did one moderately priced item really just invalidate all grappling/bruiser monsters and a lot of crowd control magic?

[Inevitability]

Otiluke's Suppressing field keyed to Abjurations, perhaps?

[ExLibrisMortis]

There are some other spells, but they are all broadly the same: Mordenkainen's disjunction, antimagic ray (SpC), antimagic aura (MoF). The latter two are both 7ths that allow both SR and a will save, and they encase the target in a personal antimagic field. The SpC version is a close-range ranged touch attack, the MoF version a melee touch (you could perhaps deliver it with your first grapple attempt, which is also a melee touch attack).

[Psyren]

I get a hold with improved grab but then they walk out, though I found one monster in FF that swallows immediately which might come up.

This is false:


The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

There is never a point where you've grabbed them, because they automatically succeed (i.e. you automatically fail.) That means no swallowing either, immediate or otherwise.

[Darrin]

Spellthief 2 can steal an ongoing spell effect. It doesn't look like there's an opposed roll or caster level check, just hit with a sneak attack and say "I steal the freedom of movement spell effect."

[Psyren]

Spellthief 2 can steal an ongoing spell effect. It doesn't look like there's an opposed roll or caster level check, just hit with a sneak attack and say "I steal the freedom of movement spell effect."

You need really high Cha for that: "A spellthief can't steal a spell effect if its caster level exceeds his class level + Charisma modifier." FoM is a 4th-level spell so it'll have a minimum CL of 7.

[Darrin]

You need really high Cha for that: "A spellthief can't steal a spell effect if its caster level exceeds his class level + Charisma modifier." FoM is a 4th-level spell so it'll have a minimum CL of 7.

Urgh. Sorry, I read that too quickly, then. I thought you just needed to meet the spell level, not the caster level.

Master Spellthief won't help, either, as it does nothing for stealing spell effects.

[Pex]

In Pathfinder Tetori archetype monks, the grapplers, ignore Freedom of Movement.

Another way to look at the problem is not as something that makes encounter design hard but something that inspires encounter design. So the party is able to have Freedom Movement readily available. For a particular encounter, make the party have to use it. By coincidence my group has an example coming up. My oracle can spam Freedom of Movement. In our next game we know in character we're going to have fight an "evolved" Neolithid, a very big creature with tentacles known to grab you. I need to buff the party with Freedom of Movement or else we're doomed. Just last session we had to fight an Abyssal Horror with a grappling CMB of "You're grappled" and a CMD of "You're never getting out" and a spellcrafting check DC to cast while grappled of "You're never casting spells" even though I have +30 to my check. If I hadn't cast Freedom of Movement on myself, I'd be doing absolutely nothing that combat, and at least one party member would have been killed.

Obviously those are high level high power examples, but the principle is relevant to any level. It wouldn't be fair and proper for every counter to require Freedom of Movement or else TPK or something. It is a good thing that sometimes having the ability makes an encounter easy or otherwise not an issue. Don't "punish" the party for having the ability, but it is fine occasionally to make it the key thing to have.

[Jay R]

Don't try to undo it. Try to make it irrelevant. Area of Effect attacks, for instance. Or trap the character in a narrow pit.

[Bohandas]

Bind them in mundane chains

[Eladrinblade]

in ring form, is there literally any way short of AMF to actually do anything about this? Dispel has issues with targetting,

What issues?

Fighter on standby, using reach + improved trip + AoO's to hold the target in place, while the mage casts dispel magic on the ring
Fighter then grapples, pins, and removes ring (takes 3 attacks)
Done.

[nedz]

FoM is just one defence against one kind of attack. Don't try to go through it - go around it: use some other kind of attack.

Not that, as a DM, you shouldn't use attacks which will bounce of FoM - that would just invalidate their character choices.

That said: going through something like this once can be hilarious - it gets old fast though, and is best done as a side effect of some other situation or it looks staged: DeM.

[Bohandas]

Mordenkainen's Disjunction will take the ring out permanently

[Elroy114]

Bind them in mundane chains

yes this seems reasonable

[Divide by Zero]

If you want ridiculous but technically RAW options, you can always sunder the ring.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bind them in mundane chains


yes this seems reasonable

How do you get them into the chains in the first place? (Not that it matters, since they can move normally, in spite of them, per the spell's description.)

[Traitoreous]

Does FoM help against Medusa's gaze? It impedes movement and is supernatural, so FoM should make you a piece of moving stone?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Does FoM help against Medusa's gaze? It impedes movement and is supernatural, so FoM should make you a piece of moving stone?

I would say no. While petrification does, indeed, impede movement, it does so as a byproduct of turning the target into a block of stone. The magic doesn't impede movement, being a block of stone does. You can still move normally for a block of stone, that is to say; not at all.

In any instance, ask yourself; is the effect impeding movement directly or is it causing some change in the character itself that precludes normal movement? Dominate makes you not want to move, petrification makes you into something that cannot move, and being paralyzed by dexterity damage means that you're incapable of movement, not that your movement is impeded. In all of the above, nothing's getting in the way of you moving like being underwater or grappled, some change in your state makes movement a different matter for you.

That's my take, anyway.

[Telonius]

The only thing I could think of would be to use sovereign glue and some form of trickery to ensure they don't use a move action to get away while it's setting.

[Andreaz]

Chains don't work, Freedom of Movement covers that...
Cage the target.

[Gallowglass]

Let's look at the spell from both 3.5 and pathfinder.

3.5: Freedom of Movement

Components: V, S, M (a leather strap, bound around the arm or a similar appendage)

You touch a willing creature. For the duration, the target’s movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the target’s speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained.

The target can also spend 5 feet of movement to automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it grappled. Finally, being underwater imposes no penalties on the target’s movement or attacks.

and Pathfinder:

Components V, S, M (a leather strip bound to the target), DF

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

So, two different spells RAW with two different challenges to overcome.

Ideas for 3.5:
Steal or Sunder the strip of leather bound around the appendage used for the spell. (Or ring if obtained through the ring of FoM)
find a way to paralyze or restrain the opponent that are not terrain, spells or magical in nature. Mundane poisons? Mundane traps? Except traps would count as "nonmagical restraints"....a
find a way to reduce the characters movement to 0 to keep them from using 5' to escape grapples and restraints.

Ideas for Pathfinder:
Steal or Sunder the strip of leather bound to the character used for the spell (Or ring if obtained through the ring of FoM)
Mundane shackles (if you can find a way to get them on the character. In Pathfinder, the only way to do this to an unwilling opponent is through grappling, pinning and then restraining.
Although you can argue that mundane shackles are using the Grapple rules to retrain the character and so an automatic success on Escape Artist means this won't work.
Mundane poison


So, it seems to me that the cheapest solution involved drow naptime drops or other poison.

[Psyren]

The strip of leather is a material component, so it doesn't actually stay on the target. You wrap it around their appendage while casting (probably like a rubber band or snap bracelet) and the spell's energies then consume it instantly, leaving the spell in effect. There's nothing to cut off them once the spell is cast.

[AnimeTheCat]

You touch a willing creature. For the duration, the target’s movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the target’s speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained.

The target can also spend 5 feet of movement to automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it grappled. Finally, being underwater imposes no penalties on the target’s movement or attacks.


So, if the target's movement speed can't be reduced by magical effects or spells, what about the Druid spell Spike Growth? They take damage per 5 ft square moved through, which makes the path look a lot less appealing. Additionally the spell says:


Any creature that takes damage from this spell must also succeed on a Reflex save or suffer injuries to its feet and legs that slow its land speed by one-half. This speed penalty lasts for 24 hours or until the injured creature receives a cure spell (which also restores lost hit points). Another character can remove the penalty by taking 10 minutes to dress the injuries and succeeding on a Heal check against the spell’s save DC.

Their movement speed is not caused by a spell or magical effect. Right there it says that the speed reduction is caused by injuries to feet and legs. There's on way you can at least slow the target down. There's also the big brother of Spike Growth called Spike Stones. The immediate movement speed reduction caused by the spell won't take effect but the same injury rule applies. Along this same line of thought are Caltrops. You're not so much "beating" FoM, more like hindering the person under the influence of FoM.

Try using Charm Person, that way you can simply ask them to remove the ring and give it to you to use. Could Also try Color Spray. RAW FoM only protects you from being paralyzed or restrained. Stunned is neither of those. Sleep is also an option (depending on target level of course). Hideous Laughter will make the target fall prone. Try to fascinate the target with a bard and have a rogue swipe the ring from his hand. Maybe try using the spell Suggestion to ask him to remove the ring and give it to you. Only problem with that is that you can't do it if it seems like an unreasonable suggestion. perhaps a charlatan along the roadside just wishes to marvel at it and once he has the ring the player gets jumped by the guys hiding in the bushes? Or perhaps then the charlatan casts hold person on him once he has the ring?

All of the above are 4th or lower level spells that can be used in a crafty way to counteract someone with a ring of FoM because none of them directly inhibit the movement of the target.

[Kelb_Panthera]

3.5: Freedom of Movement

Components: V, S, M (a leather strap, bound around the arm or a similar appendage)

You touch a willing creature. For the duration, the target’s movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the target’s speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained.

The target can also spend 5 feet of movement to automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it grappled. Finally, being underwater imposes no penalties on the target’s movement or attacks.



Where did this come from? It doesn't match my PHB or the SRD.

[zergling.exe]

Here's the actual 3.5 Freedom of Movement, pulled from WotC's srd (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). (not the hyperlink one) Just for anyone that doesn't know where to find it.


Freedom of Movement
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 4, Drd 4, Luck 4, Rgr 4
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or creature touched
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.
Material Component: A leather thong, bound around the arm or a similar appendage.

It's basically identical to the Pathfinder version.

[Mr Adventurer]

Where did this come from? It doesn't match my PHB or the SRD.

I'm going to guess 5e.

[Inevitability]

I'm going to guess 5e.

Can confirm, it's from 5e.

[Mr Adventurer]

I could tell, because I have seen many rulebooks in my time, and also because of the pixels.

[Magesmiley]

One big thing to remember about Freedom of Movement is that it prevents you from being held in place. It doesn't prevent people from moving you where you don't want to go. This includes things like bull rushing and overrun. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you from bull rushing someone who is under the effect of the spell into a spot they can't get out of, such as a corner, or a pit, or through a blade barrier (I actually did this last one multiple times during a game).

Think creatively.

[denthor]

Let's look at the spell from both 3.5 and pathfinder.

3.5: Freedom of Movement

Components: V, S, M (a leather strap, bound around the arm or a similar appendage)

You touch a willing creature. For the duration, the target’s movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and other magical effects can neither reduce the target’s speed nor cause the target to be paralyzed or restrained.

The target can also spend 5 feet of movement to automatically escape from nonmagical restraints, such as manacles or a creature that has it grappled. Finally, being underwater imposes no penalties on the target’s movement or attacks.

and Pathfinder:

Components V, S, M (a leather strip bound to the target), DF

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing.

So, two different spells RAW with two different challenges to overcome.

Ideas for 3.5:
Steal or Sunder the strip of leather bound around the appendage used for the spell. (Or ring if obtained through the ring of FoM)
find a way to paralyze or restrain the opponent that are not terrain, spells or magical in nature. Mundane poisons? Mundane traps? Except traps would count as "nonmagical restraints"....a
find a way to reduce the characters movement to 0 to keep them from using 5' to escape grapples and restraints.

Ideas for Pathfinder:
Steal or Sunder the strip of leather bound to the character used for the spell (Or ring if obtained through the ring of FoM)
Mundane shackles (if you can find a way to get them on the character. In Pathfinder, the only way to do this to an unwilling opponent is through grappling, pinning and then restraining.
Although you can argue that mundane shackles are using the Grapple rules to retrain the character and so an automatic success on Escape Artist means this won't work.
Mundane poison


So, it seems to me that the cheapest solution involved drow naptime drops or other poison.

How does the forum feel about magical whips for either version magical spiked chains, man catchers all seem to be special weapon proficiency that work

[jiriku]

One big thing to remember about Freedom of Movement is that it prevents you from being held in place. It doesn't prevent people from moving you where you don't want to go. This includes things like bull rushing and overrun. There is absolutely nothing that prevents you from bull rushing someone who is under the effect of the spell into a spot they can't get out of, such as a corner, or a pit, or through a blade barrier (I actually did this last one multiple times during a game).

Think creatively.

Great point. It's also quite possible to box a FoM opponent in with walls. Think inside the box!

[Divide by Zero]

The spell doesn't protect you from tripping, so unless they have another way around that a standard lockdown build should be able to keep them in place for a while.

[Togo]

Certain monsters, such as dragons, have a crush attack. From memory that imposes a pin condition via a reflex save, not via a grapple check. This bypasses freedom of movement entirely. They can still escape via a grapple check on their turn, of course, but they're still grappled until they spend that action.