I'm building a mundane for funsies!

[GreyBlack]

Okay, so I recently purchased the Weapon Master's Handbook and was inspired by the Relic Mastery feat line. So, I have a couple of questions:

1: Teleportation Mastery. How does that interact with the Dimensional Agility line? Do I count as casting Dimension Door, or no?
2: Would it be worth it to craft my own magic items via Master Craftsman, or is grabbing those two feats too expensive for the concept?

So my idea is that this character lives in a high magic setting, but never received the opportunities or formal schooling necessary to cast magic. He apprenticed himself to some of the greatest craftsmen in the world, learning how to create some truly spectacular arms and armor. As such, he now travels from town to town essentially as a wandering blacksmith/mercenary hybrid to prove his worth to the world. I'm just left wondering: is this concept worth it? Or should I just bite the bullet and roll Alchemist? (Considering Fighter/VMC Alchemist right now).

[Psyren]

Okay, so I recently purchased the Weapon Master's Handbook and was inspired by the Relic Mastery feat line. So, I have a couple of questions:

1: Teleportation Mastery. How does that interact with the Dimensional Agility line? Do I count as casting Dimension Door, or no?
2: Would it be worth it to craft my own magic items via Master Craftsman, or is grabbing those two feats too expensive for the concept?

So my idea is that this character lives in a high magic setting, but never received the opportunities or formal schooling necessary to cast magic. He apprenticed himself to some of the greatest craftsmen in the world, learning how to create some truly spectacular arms and armor. As such, he now travels from town to town essentially as a wandering blacksmith/mercenary hybrid to prove his worth to the world. I'm just left wondering: is this concept worth it? Or should I just bite the bullet and roll Alchemist? (Considering Fighter/VMC Alchemist right now).

1) Yes, because of two rules. First, the Item Mastery feats count as spell-like abilities:


All effects created by item mastery feats act as spell-like abilities and use your base attack bonus as the caster level.

Second, having a spell-like ability that functions as {spell} counts as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites that specifically name that spell (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow):


Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?
Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells".

2) This largely depends on your campaign. If you have downtime to craft and purchasable or discoverable magic items are in short supply, sure. But if you can get your hands on items to pull this off without spending feats, I'd say do that - gold is usually less valuable than feats. This also depends on whether retraining is an option, since once you have all the gear you want, crafting feats are less valuable.

Having said that, while this strategy does work, the limited uses of it per day make me hesitant to recommend it. Since it depends on your base fort save value, it means you can use it 1/day at 8th level, 2/day at 14th level and 3/day at 20th level. Sure, Fighters wouldn't ordinarily get to do this at all, but chances are you're not going to get more than two tele-pounces per day out of this. If you want to make a teleporting attacker I'd recommend playing something else like a Magus or Unchained Monk instead.

[GreyBlack]

1) Yes, because of two rules. First, the Item Mastery feats count as spell-like abilities:



Second, having a spell-like ability that functions as {spell} counts as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites that specifically name that spell (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow):



2) This largely depends on your campaign. If you have downtime to craft and purchasable or discoverable magic items are in short supply, sure. But if you can get your hands on items to pull this off without spending feats, I'd say do that - gold is usually less valuable than feats. This also depends on whether retraining is an option, since once you have all the gear you want, crafting feats are less valuable.

Having said that, while this strategy does work, the limited uses of it per day make me hesitant to recommend it. Since it depends on your base fort save value, it means you can use it 1/day at 8th level, 2/day at 14th level and 3/day at 20th level. Sure, Fighters wouldn't ordinarily get to do this at all, but chances are you're not going to get more than two tele-pounces per day out of this. If you want to make a teleporting attacker I'd recommend playing something else like a Magus or Unchained Monk instead.

Thank you for this! The wording of the feat, by RAW, sounds like the item is casting the spell rather than you using a SLA, hence the confusion.


And, certainly. At the moment, I'm more interested in proof of concept than actual viability, and I think that this would create an interesting artificer character type thing. I'd probably burn too many feats anyway to go through the full D.A. line anyway. Thank you again!

[Florian]

@GreyBlack:

That´s pumping a lot of feats into a relatively small amount of effect. Throwing in VMC Alchemist doesn´t help there, either.

I´d rather go Fighter/Shadowdancer on this, supplementing the Dimensional Dervish feat line with Extra Shadow Jump and Flexible Shadow Jump (both Blood of Shadows) and building on Bravery with Improved Bravery and Inspiring Bravery (both Ultimate Intrigue).

Master Craftsman .... is relative. That´ll cost you up to three feats and possible a trait for further cost reduction and also permanently blocks one of your skill ranks, which can be annoying for a Fighter.
In a strict WBL game with a lot of free time at your hands, the results of being able to cherry-pick equipment can be spectacular in the mid-level range when you build your character around that.

For example, when you go the Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc route, with Opportunistic Gambler and Fate´s Favored, you want to craft a Courageous weapon as fast as possible and start collecting everything with the related bonus types.

[GreyBlack]

@GreyBlack:

That´s pumping a lot of feats into a relatively small amount of effect. Throwing in VMC Alchemist doesn´t help there, either.

I´d rather go Fighter/Shadowdancer on this, supplementing the Dimensional Dervish feat line with Extra Shadow Jump and Flexible Shadow Jump (both Blood of Shadows) and building on Bravery with Improved Bravery and Inspiring Bravery (both Ultimate Intrigue).

Master Craftsman .... is relative. That´ll cost you up to three feats and possible a trait for further cost reduction and also permanently blocks one of your skill ranks, which can be annoying for a Fighter.
In a strict WBL game with a lot of free time at your hands, the results of being able to cherry-pick equipment can be spectacular in the mid-level range when you build your character around that.

For example, when you go the Sacred Tattoo Half-Orc route, with Opportunistic Gambler and Fate´s Favored, you want to craft a Courageous weapon as fast as possible and start collecting everything with the related bonus types.

EHHHH.... The Fighter/Shadowdancer build isn't exactly on-concept. The concept is a guy who's so good with his own items that it simulates magic, sort of like a significantly nerfed 3.5 Artificer. I'll agree that Master Craftsman is relative (and fairly weak, especially considering that you'd need to take it twice to make magic armor and magic weapons), but it's the concept I'm looking at more than the Dimensional Dervish. Focus is going to be on Item Mastery rather than D.D.

[Psyren]

If your concept is a mundane who is built around Item Mastery, I recommend the Relic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/relic-master-fighter-archetype) fighter archetype. This will give you more uses of Item Mastery per day, and even allow you to use Item Mastery with magic items that don't match the effect you want. The only downside is it loses both Armor and Weapon training, though the ability to enhance your weapon just by holding it makes up for the latter somewhat.

As far as becoming an expert blacksmith - instead of VMC Alchemist, I recommend VMC Wizard. This gives you the following:

1) Arcane school (good choices are Creation so you can create tools from nothing, or Arcane Crafter for a bonus item creation feat to go with your Master Craftsman.)
2) A familiar (to which you can apply the Valet (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/valet-familiar-archetype) or Sage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype) archetypes.)
3) A cantrip (Mending is the obvious choice here, though Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, and Arcane Mark all fit your concept as well.)
4) An Arcane Discovery (Arcane Builder and Golem Constructor are both good choices.)

[Florian]

EHHHH.... The Fighter/Shadowdancer build isn't exactly on-concept. The concept is a guy who's so good with his own items that it simulates magic, sort of like a significantly nerfed 3.5 Artificer. I'll agree that Master Craftsman is relative (and fairly weak, especially considering that you'd need to take it twice to make magic armor and magic weapons), but it's the concept I'm looking at more than the Dimensional Dervish. Focus is going to be on Item Mastery rather than D.D.

The concept of an item-handler being "mundane" is the foggy one here. When you think "artificer light", then take a look at the Occultist, a class that is completely focused on gaining power by handling items, and items alone.

The Relic Master Fighter archetype will practically do the same, just with higher BAB instead of the small spell selection. In the end, you´ll still use a lot of SLAs.

Master Craftsman really starts to shine when you´re more into Wondrous Items than armor or weapons.

A fun variation on the whole theme would use a 1to1 multiclass of Fighter (Relic Master) and Vigilante (Brute). Master Craftsman by day, brutal melee monster by night.

[GreyBlack]

Yes, necro and all, but I just realized something with this concept: is Master Craftsman even necessary for me to grab Craft Magic Arms and Armor or Craft Wondrous Item?

Hear me out: If the item mastery feats qualify as spell-like abilities, and SLAs qualify as spells for the purpose of crafting items... can a Fighter with Illusion Mastery (for example) qualify as he is able to cast Minor Image as an SLA?

[Florian]

Should be the same as handling SLAs for the purpose of qualifying for PrCs, so no, not possible. A SLA only substitutes a specific spell if that spell is asked for. (See FAQ that prevented Dreamspeaker Elves from further early-entry abuse)

[SorenKnight]

Should be the same as handling SLAs for the purpose of qualifying for PrCs, so no, not possible. A SLA only substitutes a specific spell if that spell is asked for. (See FAQ that prevented Dreamspeaker Elves from further early-entry abuse)

You should check the prerequisites for crafting feats again, only a caster level is required, not spell casting. SLA can qualify you as long as the caster level for them is high enough.

[GreyBlack]

And, under the item mastery feat rules, your caster level is equal to your BAB. Under this framework, do I qualify? Or should I take this to the Paizo boards?

[Psyren]

SLAs do not give you a caster level for the purpose of qualifying for item creation feats. (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qp0) You still need Master Craftsman.

[SorenKnight]

By RAW you qualify as soon as you hit caster level 5, which would be when your Bab hits 5 at fifth level. If you go single classed fighter you would qualify at the same time as a single classed wizard.

Edit: Nevermind. Whole thing is ruined by an idiotic Paizo ruling. If you want to use this in a game I'd recommend ignoring it. Letting non-casters craft easier does nothing but make the game funner and more balanced.

[Florian]

Edit: Nevermind. Whole thing is ruined by an idiotic Paizo ruling. If you want to use this in a game I'd recommend ignoring it. Letting non-casters craft easier does nothing but make the game funner and more balanced.

No worries. Armor Master´s Guide makes up for that. One of the Advanced Armor Mastery options gives Master Craftsman, the full version of Craft Magic Arms and Armor and substitutes BAB for skill checks on this. Pretty nifty package.

[Psyren]

No worries. Armor Master´s Guide makes up for that. One of the Advanced Armor Mastery options gives Master Craftsman, the full version of Craft Magic Arms and Armor and substitutes BAB for skill checks on this. Pretty nifty package.

One caveat to this though - the Relic Master archetype (if the OP decides to go with it) gives up Armor Training.

[GreyBlack]

No worries. Armor Master´s Guide makes up for that. One of the Advanced Armor Mastery options gives Master Craftsman, the full version of Craft Magic Arms and Armor and substitutes BAB for skill checks on this. Pretty nifty package.

Is this archetype up on the SRD yet? Can you link to it? I'm curious...

[Psyren]

Is this archetype up on the SRD yet? Can you link to it? I'm curious...

It's not an archetype - Weapon Masters' Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook basically came up with free options to buff the Fighter. Instead of increasing the value of your Weapon Training or Armor Training bonuses, you can pick an AWT option or AAT option instead.

The AWT options have been added to the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter) on the Fighter page, so I assume that's where the AAT options will go too, later on.

[GreyBlack]

It's not an archetype - Weapon Masters' Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook basically came up with free options to buff the Fighter. Instead of increasing the value of your Weapon Training or Armor Training bonuses, you can pick an AWT option or AAT option instead.

The AWT options have been added to the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter) on the Fighter page, so I assume that's where the AAT options will go too, later on.

I haven't seen any AAT options on there yet and I actually own AWT, so boo. Thanks though!

[Psyren]

I haven't seen any AAT options on there yet and I actually own AWT, so boo. Thanks though!

They'll be up there before too long I'm sure. There's some nice ones and do a good job of bumping the Fighter up a tier without needing archetypes.

[SorenKnight]

No worries. Armor Master´s Guide makes up for that. One of the Advanced Armor Mastery options gives Master Craftsman, the full version of Craft Magic Arms and Armor and substitutes BAB for skill checks on this. Pretty nifty package.

Funnily enough, I was actually going to mention that, but then I remembered the that it was unnecessary by what I thought were the rules and forgot about it. Nice as it is for fighters though, I still like the pre-FAQ rules and will hopefully get to keep them in my game. After all they open up crafting for almost everybody, rogues with the minor magic talent for example, or anything with racial SLAs like an aasimar or gnome.