Sequel to Methods of Rationality

[Douglas]

For any fans of Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality (http://hpmor.com/), a particularly dedicated and talented fan decided to continue the story past Voldemort's defeat and into Harry's quest for World Optimization, in the story Significant Digits (http://www.anarchyishyperbole.com/p/significant-digits.html). He's done such a good job that Eliezer Yudkowsky, the original HPMoR author, has just about declared it official canon (exact quote, formatting included, from about a month ago in a news update email, "I'm pretty much ready to declare it the continuation for HPMOR").

So, I'm curious what everyone thinks about Significant Digits, whether you knew of it before or not. I've read it all through the latest update, and I think it's very well done and a perfect fit with the themes of MoR. (I'll be very vague here, no spoilers) Today's update in particular impressed me with an extremely unorthodox yet sensible conflict resolution.

Some things that could stand better/earlier explanation to avoid confusion in the first few chapters:
"The Tower" is most commonly used to refer to Harry Potter, though is also the short form of the name for the combined school/hospital he founded.
"The Goddess" is Hermione Granger, an informal title bestowed by someone who witnessed her destruction of Azkaban and soon adopted by the rest of the world as she (and Harry) rose to political prominence.
The story starts several years after MoR ends, with Harry fully adult, graduated from Hogwarts, and already one of the major political powers in the world.

[warty goblin]

Does the author of this one know how to use Bayes' rule in a way that doesn't fill me with a terrible fury against bad statistics? Because the Bayes in the previous one was terrible to the point of being justifiable only through an essentially solipsistic argument.

[Douglas]

Formal Bayesian analysis doesn't show up much that I recall, especially not with trying to show calculations. There's a lot of clever and creative strategies and tactics, and various characters trying to outmaneuver each other (which includes trying to predict what the other guy might do), but the author doesn't try to show characters analyzing probabilities much.

Also, the story starts out with a heavy focus on political maneuvering, but transitions to a far greater (and to me more interesting) problem part way through.

[DelphiSage]

Why is this fic so offen mentioned around fan circles?

[tensai_oni]

Why is this fic so offen mentioned around fan circles?

It's (in)famous for trying to bring logic and scientific thinking into the Potter-verse.

Personally, I believe this is because a lot of people on the internet like to feel smart, and one of most surefire ways of feeling smart is thinking you can do something that makes more sense than canon. But there's a fine line between pointing out plot holes and being unable to accept assumptions of genre and breaks from reality required for the book (or movie, or cartoon, or whatever) to even exist and be enjoyable in the first place. And Yudkovsky is doing the latter.

Methods of Rationality is the equivalent of playing DnD and summoning chlorine elementals, because chlorine is an element in real life. It's the equivalent of going to a mecha show and saying that realistically speaking the robots shouldn't be able to uphold their own mass, and then see them collapse defeated by your faultless logic. It's going full Frodo mode, asking why don't they just use the eagles to drop the Ring into Mount Doom.

Yes, I'm not a fan.

[Lethologica]

Because it's unusual, inconsistent, better early than late, and controversial.

[DelphiSage]

But why this fic specifically? There's probably half a million fanfics that try and make things more "logical" at the expense of missing the point entirely. And from younger, less dated fandoms, I'd bet.

[Douglas]

It's (in)famous for trying to bring logic and scientific thinking into the Potter-verse.

Personally, I believe this is because a lot of people on the internet like to feel smart, and one of most surefire ways of feeling smart is thinking you can do something that makes more sense than canon. But there's a fine line between pointing out plot holes and being unable to accept assumptions of genre and breaks from reality required for the book (or movie, or cartoon, or whatever) to even exist and be enjoyable in the first place. And Yudkovsky is doing the latter.
I would argue that Yudkowsky is demonstrating that those assumptions and breaks from reality are in fact not required.


Methods of Rationality is the equivalent of playing DnD and summoning chlorine elementals, because chlorine is an element in real life. It's the equivalent of going to a mecha show and saying that realistically speaking the robots shouldn't be able to uphold their own mass, and then see them collapse defeated by your faultless logic. It's going full Frodo mode, asking why don't they just use the eagles to drop the Ring into Mount Doom.

Yes, I'm not a fan.
A lot of the early parts seem like that, but a large part of that is really just seeing surface impressions of magical things through the eyes of an overly arrogant and scientifically minded kid. A smart kid, maybe, but one with too much confidence in his own intelligence for his own good. And yes, this does cause him major problems in the later parts of the story.

Yudkowsky then goes on to build an alternative foundation under the surface, explore a way for it all to really work together, and craft a complex set of interrelated plots with several surprising twists and a resolution that truly depends entirely on creative thought with pre-established capabilities.


But why this fic specifically? There's probably half a million fanfics that try and make things more "logical" at the expense of missing the point entirely. And from younger, less dated fandoms, I'd bet.
I haven't read all that many fanfics, but I'd guess most of the ones of that type merely point out plot holes and then fix them, while doing little else. Methods of Rationality builds its own original world, clearly similar to and inspired by canon Harry Potter but with fundamental differences, and then tells its own original story set in that world.

[Lethologica]

But why this fic specifically? There's probably half a million fanfics that try and make things more "logical" at the expense of missing the point entirely. And from younger, less dated fandoms, I'd bet.
HP may be dated but you won't find a larger fanfic community anywhere else. Eliezer has superficial credibility and an existing fandom from LessWrong; writes better than most fanfic authors (a low bar to clear); and had a long-term plan.

[Chives]

One of the things I love about Methods of Rationality is that it sets up the villain so well. It's amazing actually, I can't think of another book that does that better.

Thanks for the info on the sequel, definitely giving it a read.

[Tyndmyr]

But why this fic specifically? There's probably half a million fanfics that try and make things more "logical" at the expense of missing the point entirely. And from younger, less dated fandoms, I'd bet.

Because this one is still entertaining. Looking at things "realistically" does not always make a good end product. In fact, I'd say it's extremely difficult to maintain a completely coherent storyline, while also making everything entirely consistent, and yet still maintaining the fantasy feel, and humor, and all of that.

Those are skills that are very different, and figuring out one does not necessarily grant you another.

There are, after all, a great many fantasy authors. Why is Pratchett so commonly lauded? I dare say it's because he, too, had mastered many of these skills. He isn't seeking rationality, per se, though his books often do explore some moral grounds...but his world is reasonably consistent, and while greater truths are perhaps explored, they are not done so at the cost of making the work unenjoyable.

MoR is...less preachy, and more amusing than most such attempts. It's not perfect at that, oh god no, but it's better than a great many. There's an actual story there, of interest, not mere sniping at plot holes.

I am reading the sequel, and while it's not exactly like the original, it's still good enough that I keep reading.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

While I'm not an HP reader, I do know about MoR, and--I'm really amused and impressed that this fanfic is now getting a fanfic, which is becoming canon fanfic. :smallbiggrin:

[KnightDisciple]

Somehow not surprising. Not everyone shares my tastes (poorer the world for it! :smalltongue:) so it's not surprising someone would want to continue this work...

But...ugh. Was I the only one who couldn't even finish it? It was way too heavy-handed for my liking.
I mean, even the title felt kind of "preachy", as if only this author was really rational.
EY's site's own name is somewhat telling to me. They're the ones who are "Less Wrong", which is to say they're naturally more rational.
That same attitude bleeds into the writing of MoR, and it's just such a turnoff to me I could never stomach finishing the work. :smallfrown:

[warty goblin]

I read the first couple chapters, since there's enough stuff in there that's vaguely in my wheelhouse to be of interest. It struck me as being an exercise in Author Insert Character demonstrates their Vast Intellect by solving problems set up by the author for them to solve in order to promulgate the author's weird personally philosophy. All of this was covered via a mote-and-bailey tactic, since the protagonist was ostensibly a kid, so anything they got wrong was due to that, and anything they got right was due to the transcendent awesomeness of rationality as conceived of by Yudkowski.

That, and infuriatingly bad uses of Bayes' rule. "Here's a world that contradicts huge amounts of what I thought I knew. Quick, let's use an enormously influential prior for a topic I know nothing about which I pulled directly out of my (desired) posterior*. Look, a number! Rationality!"


*This sort of pun should really be beneath me.

[Red Fel]

For what it's worth, MoR was extremely preachy, and there was a good amount of condescension to it. This, along with its tendency to over-explain, escalated as the story went on.

That said, early on, it was tons of fun. The premise - what if a perfectly rational mind went to Hogwarts? - was exceptionally well-executed, to incredibly entertaining results. Even the more self-gratifying elements of the story, like the author shoehorning in references to his favorite stories (e.g. Star Wars, Ender's Game) tended to be done well, and amusing.

By the end, it was exceedingly tiresome. I got through the last however many chapters by sheer force of will, wondering whether the story would return to the whimsy and humor of the early chapters. I felt a bit let down by the outcome. It felt like a number of threads were left hanging; it seemed anticlimactic and forced. To be fair, with the amount of buildup that went into it, I think the author was hard-pressed to come up with a truly satisfying ending; almost anything would be lacking compared with what came before.

I've not yet read this successor. To be honest, I don't know that I could. I might love it as much as, or more than, I enjoyed the early parts of MoR. I might loathe it as much as, or more than, I loathed the slog through the latter parts of MoR. Or I might simply find the differing writing style attempting to exist in the same world jarring.

Not sure I'm going to bother, frankly. MoR was a lovely exercise, it had its time, but I finished it and I don't think I need more.

[Eldan]

Oh, it's incredibly heavy-handed and preachy. Also, frequently not as smart as it likes to think it is. I still sorta enjoyed it. I guess that' what meant by guilty pleaure.

Edit: never finished it, though. Tiresome indeed.

[KnightDisciple]

On the one hand, I can certainly understand the appeal of a "scientific approach" to a series that originally was a bit "slapdash". The magical potential in the Harry Potter series is fascinating even before you crank things up to 13 with various "Super Harry" sort of stories. So applying a sort of "scientific mindset" to the magic of Harry Potter has understandable appeal!

To me, the issue is that the core themes of Harry Potter aren't about science or magic or the like. They're about wonder, family, goodness, choice, and so on. We follow the journey of a boy becoming a young man, facing tragedy and triumph at all-too-young ages, immersed in a world of talking paintings and every-flavor jelly beans, right alongside zombies, liches, and hellfire.

To take that wondrous, mystical story and break it down for the sake of "rationality" (which is to say, the author's particular vision of rationality) is what soured the experience for me.

I think there's a great deal of story potential in the idea of someone with a more solid, scientific mindset coming to the world of Hogwarts and "pushing the limit" with magic. One could suggest that such attitudes are, in fact, the source of many innovations! Dumbledore won awards for "The 12 Uses of Dragon's Blood", after all.


what if a perfectly rational mind went to Hogwarts?
My problem is that the premise assumes that not even one character in the series was as close to "perfectly rational" (no human being is capable of "perfect" rationality) as possible, within the context of the Wizarding World.
Maybe none of them were, but it's likely because human beings are more than just a collection of neurons analyzing data. We are our intelligence, yes, but without treading into forum-banned material, we are also our feelings and emotions and perceptions and identity and so on.
To try and strip away everything from a person except for crystal-clear perfect rationality treads dangerously close to making your protagonist fundamentally inhuman.
And the Harry Potter stories are ultimately stories of the Human Condition, simply told through magic.

Again, this isn't to say there isn't room for a more "rationally scientific" exploration of Harry Potter! It's just that I'm raising the question of whether this was the best possible exploration of the concept.
I'm actually curious to hear what becomes of a work that bases on MoR but isn't written by EY, simply to see if it...softens the corners...of the original work.

[Prime32]

Yudkowski has a very weird idea of what "rationality" means. Do we need to get into that time Harry made a Dementor explode because he believes that scientists will build Heaven in the future, even if they have to break the laws of physics to do so?

[Tyndmyr]

On the one hand, I can certainly understand the appeal of a "scientific approach" to a series that originally was a bit "slapdash". The magical potential in the Harry Potter series is fascinating even before you crank things up to 13 with various "Super Harry" sort of stories. So applying a sort of "scientific mindset" to the magic of Harry Potter has understandable appeal!

To me, the issue is that the core themes of Harry Potter aren't about science or magic or the like. They're about wonder, family, goodness, choice, and so on. We follow the journey of a boy becoming a young man, facing tragedy and triumph at all-too-young ages, immersed in a world of talking paintings and every-flavor jelly beans, right alongside zombies, liches, and hellfire.

To take that wondrous, mystical story and break it down for the sake of "rationality" (which is to say, the author's particular vision of rationality) is what soured the experience for me.

Yes, well, MoR has a different theme. I think that's the point, really. If all you're doing is retelling the original story, then your fanfic isn't really adding a great deal, even if the details have changed. I'm not really that fussed about who you're shipping with who, I'm more interested in the grand themes of your story. Those pretty much HAVE to be different to tell a unique story in that world.




My problem is that the premise assumes that not even one character in the series was as close to "perfectly rational" (no human being is capable of "perfect" rationality) as possible, within the context of the Wizarding World.
Maybe none of them were, but it's likely because human beings are more than just a collection of neurons analyzing data. We are our intelligence, yes, but without treading into forum-banned material, we are also our feelings and emotions and perceptions and identity and so on.
To try and strip away everything from a person except for crystal-clear perfect rationality treads dangerously close to making your protagonist fundamentally inhuman.
And the Harry Potter stories are ultimately stories of the Human Condition, simply told through magic.

Again, this isn't to say there isn't room for a more "rationally scientific" exploration of Harry Potter! It's just that I'm raising the question of whether this was the best possible exploration of the concept.
I'm actually curious to hear what becomes of a work that bases on MoR but isn't written by EY, simply to see if it...softens the corners...of the original work.

In fairness, even the original works portrayed wizards as remarkably uncurious about, say, muggle things overall. Even those who explore it do kind of a rubbish job of it, and a lot of wizards ARE kind of bumbling idiots. And that's fine. It makes for a nice contrast.

Now, sure, the author's definition of rationality does not always match mine, and one or two things do come across as implausible, but there is a strong appeal of "what would happen if we abused this interaction as if we were 3.5 optimizers". I mean...a LOT of people on this forum dive into such things, mostly for no practical purpose. So, there seems to be a certain curiosity for exploring rules systems and the like.

The sequel does change some things. More tippyverse. Less talking about rationality and hamfisted real life examples. It's both better and worse for various reasons.

[OldTrees1]

I am a fan of HPMOR but not of Significant Digits. While the story seems like a reasonable continuation, the writing style makes me have to force myself to read it (in contrast to HPMOR and Harry Potter where I would get drawn in).

Those that are fans of HPMOR can find a slew of decent quality continuations on reddit's "r/HPMOR".


As for the draw of HPMOR? You have:

Very smart magically gifted children that compete in games but also work together against other challenges (and smarter protagonists require smarter antagonists). This is the thread Significant Digits seems focused on.
Literature about wizards doing wizardry rather than mere wizards doing magic. In Harry Potter the wizardry was lampshaded by Hermione mentioning a rule of magic here and there. Unfortunately this thread is all but abandoned later in HPMOR. SD kinda tries this too, but mostly not.

Those draws are not for everyone, and even those that seek them will not enjoy everything that falls in that genre. Honestly even I found the first lecture(HP vs parents) to be painfully condescending, so it is not for everyone.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm not sure how a sequel would work, considering that the original was very, very emphatic that there was nothing and no one that was a match for Harry in the wizarding world if he was going all out.

Even if Hermione wasn't now immortal

Read MoR on the second attempt, parts of it were good if you can tolerate meta smugness. Somebody here recommended Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) as a good alternative that deconstructs without hating the original so much , last time it was brought up.

[OldTrees1]

I'm not sure how a sequel would work, considering that the original was very, very emphatic that there was nothing and no one that was a match for Harry in the wizarding world if he was going all out.

Even if Hermione wasn't now immortal

Read MoR on the second attempt, parts of it were good if you can tolerate meta smugness. Somebody here recommended Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20) as a good alternative that deconstructs without hating the original so much , last time it was brought up.

You overestimate HPMOR's opinion of Harry's power level at the end.
Especially since he almost lost & was permanently debuffed in the final fight

However SD made it harder by: Politics, Numbers, & more Equals

"and the Natural 20" is quite good indeed. :smallbiggrin:

[Sapphire Guard]

But that person is gone now, so who else can challenge him?

[Douglas]

But that person is gone now, so who else can challenge him?
Oh, there is someone. Multiple someones, even. At the start of Significant Digits, the primary opposition to Harry is led by Draco Malfoy, who's actually doing a pretty good job of it, backed by a bunch of people whose liking for independence and distrust of Harry's supposed utopian aims set them strongly in opposition to Harry's attempts at diplomacy. Later in the story, more are revealed whose identities would be major spoilers.

Remember that explanation about how modern magic is weaker than old magic because knowledge keeps getting lost to death before being passed on? What happens if someone achieves immortality and then (being the risk-averse type) hides for centuries?
What legendary ancient wizards are there whose fate is not definitively explained?
Merlin

[Tyndmyr]

In fairness, there's a LONG time getting there. The early bit of the book is mostly tippyverse exploration, which is all well and good, but very little actual opposition crops up until much later.