[3.5] Strong ToB Build

[Thurbane]

Using only official 3.0 and 3.5 materials, what's the strongest/most versatile ToB character you can build?

I specifically want to avoid casting, but any "mundane" class is open. Feats that grant SLAs or Supernatural abilities should be OK...

No infinite loops please (no cancer mage + festering anger, for example) - I'd like for this to be a build that a reasonable DM would approve at their table.

For race, is Dragonborn Raptoran a good base to get flight and a breath weapon?

Cheers - T

[Ortesk]

Question before I post an idea, is a Swordsage considered mundane? Since they have a lot of supernatural, magic like powers? Just curious on this one

[Thurbane]

Question before I post an idea, is a Swordsage considered mundane? Since they have a lot of supernatural, magic like powers? Just curious on this one

Yes, anything from ToB that isn't actually spellcasting (Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator) is good to go.

[Ortesk]

Okay using a TOB chassis, my best would be these two:

Damage: Barbarian 1/Warblade14/Frenzy Beserker 5. With this, you have a lot of good quality maneuvers for regular battles, good defensive uses (diamond mind, IHS, ect) then when you need to put the hurt on something just charge it and pound it. 5 Levels of FB is enough for the improved power attack, so I consider that a good cut off point. Any more and I feel you lose the warblade flavor.

All around Utility: I love Unarmed Swordsage 9/Ranger 1/ Shadowsun Ninja 10. I like the arcane variant ranger, with nemesis. I love the utility abilities, the travelling and moving around (huge importance for high level games) and the self healing factor. You have an ability you can turn on and off to give extra power, which will be handy. With these mixed with mage slayer feats, you have IMO one of the strongest mage slayers outside of being a mage. The sheer ability to do so much, for a mundane, is amazingly flavored. You also get 9th level maneuvers, unlike my first idea (which is how to optimize damage as melee, lawl I charge and you die)

As a race, I wouldn't take raptoran Dragonborn. I would take human dragonborn if you can keep the feat, and get wings. A breath weapon is really cool at low level, past level 5 you can do fire damage with your strikes and are better attacking than breathing. The wings are nice though, very nice. But the dex hurts shadowblade. Though a wood elf dragonborn is alright, +2 str -2 int. Basically a better half orc, and opens up the racial only class in tob with the island of time ability (forget the name)

[Hida Reju]

Bard 4 Warblade rest. Song of the White Raven, Dragon fire inspiration, Song of the Heart, lingering song, and Words of Creation.

You have a bard that advances Inspire courage with Warblade lvls, uses his bard magic to cast one spell Inspirational boost. You get something like +6 inspire courage fast that can turn into 6D6 fire damage if you want or other energy types with a bit of effort.

Next go to town with tiger claw TWF maneuvers boosted by mad energy damage per hit. Oh and you share the love with any other Melee.

[Sword-Geass]

Though a wood elf dragonborn is alright, +2 str -2 int. Basically a better half orc, and opens up the racial only class in tob with the island of time ability (forget the name)

Eternal blade it is. Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 with Time Stands Still can let you make 4 full attacks in a round, once per encounter, 5 times a day. That's another build to keep in mind, and you don't have to spend a single feat for pre-reqs, also.

Another charger could be (if flaws are allowed) Warblade 4/X 1/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Where X is some class with Hide and Move Silently as class skills and full BAB (Ranger, for example). Can do the same trick of the above, gets 9th level manuevers (at 20), and treats both ends of a double scimitar as two-handed, so you could charge (with Shock Trooper and the Tiger Claw maneuver for pounce, sad, but barbarian doesn't fit) for full PA damage and hit 7 times with it.

Edit: forgot about Raging Mongoose, you could make that 11 hits, although you could only grab it via Martial Study with those levels :smallbiggrin:

[Ortesk]

Eternal blade it is. Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 10 with Time Stands Still can let you make 4 full attacks in a round, once per encounter, 5 times a day. That's another build to keep in mind, and you don't have to spend a single feat for pre-reqs, also.

Another charger could be (if flaws are allowed) Warblade 4/X 1/Revenant Blade 5/Eternal Blade 10. Where X is some class with Hide and Move Silently as class skills and full BAB (Ranger, for example). Can do the same trick of the above, gets 9th level manuevers (at 20), and treats both ends of a double scimitar as two-handed, so you could charge (with Shock Trooper and the Tiger Claw maneuver for pounce, sad, but barbarian doesn't fit) for full PA damage and hit 7 times with it.

Edit: forgot about Raging Mongoose, you could make that 11 hits, although you could only grab it via Martial Study with those levels :smallbiggrin:

Throw on a belt of battle for more attacks. if you had charge feats, that is what...5 enemies getting gazzillion damage?

And the second build is one that I made heavy use of with my half nymph-human. Used old blood (elf) to get into it. Was really fun to be some super gorgeous character, who went beserk and slaughtered people in some sexy blood lust. Only time I had fun with an exalted character.

[Nizaris]

If using Eternal Blade, I'm a big fan of Shards of Granite's Unstoppable Onslaught option. Does require using a Stone Dragon weapon for the set-up (as many touch attacks as you can, probably unarmed) immediately followed up with Island In Time and a Time Stands Still while dual wielding. Every successful touch attack you made on the previous turn grants a +4 to attack and damage to all 10-12 attacks; you should be sitting on a massive bonus and capable of one shoting pretty much anything.

[OldTrees1]

For race, is Dragonborn Raptoran a good base to get flight and a breath weapon?

Yes it would work, although I prefer the Dragonborn Goliaths for their Large Size and Flight.

Race: Dragonborn Goliath
Level order: Rogue 1, Barbarian(Mountain Rage, Spirit Lion, Wolf Totem) 2, Swordsage 5, Warblade 1, Scarlet Corsair 5 (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050805b), Swordsage +6

Important feats: Imperious Command, Extra Rage, Combat Reflexes, & Staggering Strike
Important gear: Fearsome armor(demoralize as move action), Mwk Awl Pike(not needed eventually), & Primary weapon

Your job is to force the enemy army to cower(Move Action -> 30ft radius for Cha mod rounds), while bearing down with your strikes(Only 15.5 IL), & staggering enemies with your AoOs. All of this while being able to fly and having the skill points necessary to be relevant out of combat.

[Troacctid]

One build that I like is Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Incarnate 2/Necrocarnate 4/Crusader 1/Necrocarnate 2/Warblade 1/Necrocarnate 6. Incarnum provides a ton of extra versatility, as well as combat power, especially with Necrocarnate ratcheting up your essentia pool, and you don't need a lot of Crusader levels to bash heads effectively.


(no cancer mage + festering anger, for example)
What about Festering Anger by itself?

[ben-zayb]

Bloodline is an alternate rule, but it would be pretty scary abused with ToB. Level 9 maneuvers at ECL11, and 9th level swordsage, warblade, and crusader initiation by ECL13.

[Aegis013]

I would take human dragonborn if you can keep the feat...

By RAW, you don't. The bonus feat is a racial trait, and since it's not explicitly called out as kept in the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar on page 10 of RotD, it falls under "all other racial traits", which you lose. Making Human -> Dragonborn strictly worse than a race with a good stat adjustments -> Dragonborn.

If you mean if it gets houseruled that way, then OK.


As far as builds, I'm a big fan of Swordsage/Telflammar Shadowlord/Master of Nine using the Shadow Jaunt, Shadow Stride, Shadow Blink maneuvers to trigger Shadowpounce. May require dips for Sneak attack, if your DM doesn't houserule Assassin's Stance to qualify you, but the Dimension Door thing can be qualified for with Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt feat. Even better if you can get them on a better recovery mechanic. I personally like Crusader's best.

[Darrin]

By RAW, you don't. The bonus feat is a racial trait, and since it's not explicitly called out as kept in the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar on page 10 of RotD, it falls under "all other racial traits", which you lose. Making Human -> Dragonborn strictly worse than a race with a good stat adjustments -> Dragonborn.

There is a way to keep the human bonus feat. If you read carefully on page 10 of RotD:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have."

This means if you have some other feat you've gained via class levels or some other method, you can lose that instead. Ranger is good for this, as you can lose either Track or Endurance with very little loss of functionality. There are many other classes and ACFs you can use to get bonus feats. Here's a somewhat comprehensive list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16967823&postcount=7). Fighter 1, for example, can lose Tower Shield Proficiency or Heavy Armor Proficiency, which they explicitly get as bonus feats. Crusaders also get Tower Shield Proficiency, but not Warblades.

Also, check the last paragraph on page 10: you can lose an existing feat to gain either Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail. If you take the Breath aspect and trade out an existing feat for Dragon Wings, this gives you a breath weapon and puts you one feat away (Improved Dragon Wings) from the same fly speed as taking the Wings aspect.

So consider a Dragonborn Snow Elf Warblade 3/Fighter 1/SLT Barbarian 1/Warblade +5/Eternal Blade 10. Still gets Time Stands Still, but also has Pounce and Whirling Frenzy along with a breath weapon and flight. (If multiclass penalties are in play, then a Dragonborn Half-Elf works nearly as well.)

[Aegis013]

There is a way to keep the human bonus feat. If you read carefully on page 10 of RotD:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have."

This means if you have some other feat you've gained via class levels or some other method, you can lose that instead. Ranger is good for this, as you can lose either Track or Endurance with very little loss of functionality. ...

I hadn't thought to burn a feat gained through class levels. Very neat, thank you for sharing that with me.

[martixy]

One build that I like is Incarnate 4/Crusader 1/Incarnate 2/Necrocarnate 4/Crusader 1/Necrocarnate 2/Warblade 1/Necrocarnate 6. Incarnum provides a ton of extra versatility, as well as combat power, especially with Necrocarnate ratcheting up your essentia pool, and you don't need a lot of Crusader levels to bash heads effectively.


What about Festering Anger by itself?

Well, in the spirit of the challenge I'd say you also have to skip Naberius and similar tricks.
Capping the benefit is also another option, but who says how much is too much?

Here's what I propose: 2 Str per 1 point of Con damage.
And why: A character normally heals 1 point of ability damage per day, and the average of 1d3 is 2, so it averages out to 1 point of Con damage for every 2 points of Str.
(Technically with proper rest you heal 2 points of ability damage per day, but that pushes us into TO territory again.)

[Troacctid]

Well, in the spirit of the challenge I'd say you also have to skip Naberius and similar tricks.
Capping the benefit is also another option, but who says how much is too much?

Here's what I propose: 2 Str per 1 point of Con damage.
And why: A character normally heals 1 point of ability damage per day, and the average of 1d3 is 2, so it averages out to 1 point of Con damage for every 2 points of Str.
(Technically with proper rest you heal 2 points of ability damage per day, but that pushes us into TO territory again.)

You heal ability damage naturally. All it takes is maybe a casting of Lesser Restoration every couple days. Festering Anger really doesn't need to combo with anything.

[martixy]

You heal ability damage naturally. All it takes is maybe a casting of Lesser Restoration every couple days. Festering Anger really doesn't need to combo with anything.

Isn't that what I said? That's totally what I said.
I was merely proposing using the rate of natural healing as the basis for establishing a limiting factor, so Festering anger can be used in a build, instead of outright banning it.

[Keld Denar]

Storm Knight! (https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=d%26d+3.5+storm+knight)

Otherwise, you can have some fun with something like Rogue2-4/Warblade in combination with Staggering Strike and maybe 3 Mountains and Disrupting Blow/Dazing Strike/White Raven Hammer to really stack up the status effects.

I'm also a fan of simply taking WarbladeX with Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment with a Ring of Blinking. The skill points cross class don't hurt as bad for a Warblade and you get Blindfighting (a prereq) for free as a Warblade bonus feat. Great defenses and offense but not leveling small villages with a single full attack.