Some questions for DMing

[Aldarin]

Hey guys, Aldarin here. So, I just started DMing for some of my cousins and introduced them to D&D. They're level 4 now, and the party-- a fighter, a wizard, a paladin, and a ranger--are learning quickly. However, the fighter is worried that he isn't contributing enough out of combat, so I made this thread to gather ideas about how I can maximize his potential.

He's a DEX-Based EK, if that helps

In summary, just trying to find some ways to help a fighter find out of combat potential.

Thanks,
Aldarin

[Ruslan]

Hey guys, Aldarin here. So, I just started DMing for some of my cousins and introduced them to D&D. They're level 4 now, and the party-- a fighter, a wizard, a paladin, and a ranger--are learning quickly. However, the fighter is worried that he isn't contributing enough out of combat, so I made this thread to gather ideas about how I can maximize his potential.

He's a DEX-Based EK, if that helps

In summary, just trying to find some ways to help a fighter find out of combat potential.

Thanks,
Aldarin

A level of Rogue with expertise in a couple of key skills can really help.

Also, not sure which spells he got as EK, but he does have the option to pick from an open-ended list at some levels. Not all spell choices have to combat-oriented ...

[Aldarin]

A level of Rogue with expertise in a couple of key skills can really help.

Also, not sure which spells he got as EK, but he does have the option to pick from an open-ended list at some levels. Not all spell choices have to combat-oriented ...


I probably should have said: he doesn't want to multiclass.

[NewDM]

Erm... feats?

A list of out of combat feats that might help:

Athlete
Actor
Dungeon Delver
Keen Mind
Linguist
Lucky (for skills)
Observant
Ritual Caster
Skilled

A background with the right skills and tools might help.

Other than that, not much can be done. As a DM you can tailor challenges so that player doesn't feel left out. (I don't do this because my world doesn't care whether characters are in it or not).

[mgshamster]

What kind of out-of-combat challenges are you providing?

Just as a general character, he can contribute by talking, problem solving, investigating, commanding others and telling them what to do and which tasks to perform at what time, collecting information that others have gathered and compiling them, assisting with any task via the help action, using any of his skills that's he proficient in, using any of his ability scores, and more.

Tell him not to limit his character to just his class. Tell him not to limit his actions and choices to just what is written on the character sheet. Try to think of the character as a real person and the options open up.

Have him imagine himself as if he had all those abilities - would he limit himself to just a handful of stats written on a piece of paper? Does he do his school work only by referencing his ability to read, write, and perform arithmetic? Or does he talk to teachers, parents, class mates, mentors, and others for ideas and asistence? His character can do the same.

Have him think of an officer in the military. A captain has the same general skill set as a common soldier - but can do so much more simply by commanding his men to perform tasks that he may no be able to do at that moment. That captain is contributing just as much as the radio specialist or the rifleman, even though they all have the same general set of skills.

Even within his own class, he still has options. He has spells that can be used out of combat (even combat spells can have creative uses out of combat), he has feats that can be used to gain of combat uses. Even if he never gets a feat, his stats will eventually be overall higher than everyone else, because he gets more ASI - and he can use those ability scores to perform tasks. He has cantrips that he can cast all day long. He has weapon bond, and if he makes one of those weapons a hammer, axe, or pick, then he also has a very useful tool that he can summon whenever it's needed.

"We need to bust through that door!"

"No worries, fella's, I now have an axe."

There's lots he can do to contribute, so long as he thinks beyond the character sheet and doesn't limit himself to just what's written down on that piece of paper.

[Gtdead]

If he feels that his character is one dimensional, he should probably invest in the skilled feat, or find some niche to fill. Between the Paladin and the Wizard, there aren't much stuff left for a Dex EK to excel at other than stealth (EK is one of the mechanically good undercover classes due to being able to summon his weapon and fighter in general is the god of overkill against anything soft and fluffy).

If he feels that his roll isn't high enough to pass checks, that's a mechanical problem that any class other than rogue and bard have. After all he doesn't have to make the roll himself. As long as he communicates and roleplays his character, actively trying to immerse himself and think of solutions to various problems, he should be fine. If he believes that he has to do something more then perhaps he has the wrong idea about the game.

I see this in my group too. New players tend to think of skills as units instead of something that their characters naturally do.

Perhaps if you gave us some details as to the source of his worry? Something specific that happened?

[Ruslan]

Use the optional training rules to get proficiency with Thieve's Tools, seeing as your party doesn't have a rogue. Then, there are locks to be picked, traps to be disabled ...

[YCombinator]

Use the optional training rules to get proficiency with Thieve's Tools, seeing as your party doesn't have a rogue. Then, there are locks to be picked, traps to be disabled ...

If he's dexterity based and there's no rogue out shining him in that department, there are a bunch of skills based on dexterity that you could throw into encounters. Maybe one of the party needs to balance across a ledge, sneak into a place, pick a lock, and run out. Maybe the ranger is high dexterity too. Try to look through his character sheet and play to whichever thing is on it that others don't have. I always like to throw stuff at my players that's custom made for them. Also, things that are custom made to counter them. It makes players feel their character choices very strongly.

Also like others said, encourage him to find a character personality, act off sheet. He doesn't need any set skills or powers be the voice of reason in the party, or the one that gets them into trouble (under rated), or maybe the strong leader who gives them hope. There are boundless RP decisions that new players wouldn't consider that make most of the character sheet irrelevant.

[NewDM]

I find it sad that the advice for making fighters participate out of combat is the same as every edition: DM make situations where they are useful.

[mgshamster]

I find it sad that the advice for making fighters participate out of combat is the same as every edition: DM make situations where they are useful.

Stop trying to turn this into an argument. Can't we just help out the OP for once without getting into a massive debate over it?

[Zman]

He has at least four skills, most other classes don't have much more. He can role play and use his skills to his advantage. Considering he is Dexbased a Stealth would be useful. Also, he is an EK, he has access to Cantrips and ultimately spells from other schools if he chooses.

What Backgeound did he choose?
What class Siills did he choose?

I'm wondering if the problem is more he believes h has no out of combat options therefore he doesn't try to do anything out of combat. There is no reason he can't contribute, especially at level 4.

[mer.c]

I'd just like to second the Ritual Caster suggestion. It's super thematic for an EK, and that feat is an enormous bundle of utility for anyone who takes it. Given the EK's very limited spell selection, it can broaden their options considerably.

[Giant2005]

Hoe much you contribute out of combat tends to have very little to do with your class or what it is capable of.
It is about coming up with ideas and plans, it is about driving the plot forward with the strength of your creativity.
If you want to help him maximize his potential out of combat, tell him to take his eyes off his sheet more often and just get caught up in the moment.

[Blue Lantern]

Hoe much you contribute out of combat tends to have very little to do with your class or what it is capable of.
It is about coming up with ideas and plans, it is about driving the plot forward with the strength of your creativity.
If you want to help him maximize his potential out of combat, tell him to take his eyes off his sheet more often and just get caught up in the moment.

This, so very much.

Besides, what exactly are the other players doing out of combat that seems to outshine this fighter.

[NewDM]

This, so very much.

Besides, what exactly are the other players doing out of combat that seems to outshine this fighter.

Expertise on 2 or 4 skills, never rolling below a 9, expertise on anything related to favored terrain/enemies, expertise on two skills from a short list, 1/2 proficiency bonus on skills not proficient in, advantage on strength checks, spells that bypass non-combat challenges, etc...etc...

I'm sure I missed a few.

[KorvinStarmast]

Stop trying to turn this into an argument. Can't we just help out the OP for once without getting into a massive debate over it? +1. I liked the idea about using the training feature to get proficiency in thieve's tools.

[Zman]

Expertise on 2 or 4 skills, never rolling below a 9, expertise on anything related to favored terrain/enemies, expertise on two skills from a short list, 1/2 proficiency bonus on skills not proficient in, advantage on strength checks, spells that bypass non-combat challenges, etc...etc...

I'm sure I missed a few.

Ummm.... None of that applies to the OP. Well, I guess the spell casters could have forgone combat spells for utility spells and use their slot outside of combat. But, your comment really has little to do with this thread and is bringing your personal baggage about the Fighter from your thread to this one.

[Gastronomie]

Have a band of NPCs appear that have a background connection to the Eldritch Knight, so that it encourages his role-playing and makes him feel special. Works.

[sxmedicus]

A dex eldritch knight might want to consider War caster and Booming blade for starters.... or rebuild onto a Bladesinger

[Gastronomie]

A dex eldritch knight might want to consider War caster and Booming blade for starters.... or rebuild onto a BladesingerIt's "out of combat".

Sadly, Eldritch Knights don't have many out-of-combat abilities, which is why the DM should build connections with NPCs and encourage good role-playing.

[mgshamster]

It's "out of combat".

Sadly, Eldritch Knights don't have many out-of-combat abilities, which is why the DM should build connections with NPCs and encourage good role-playing.

The EK specifically may be a little limited, but the character isn't. The character is more than just the class. Every background comes with a Background Feature that adds a bit of narrative power, and every character is a full person capable of doing the things that people can do - including talked, problem solving, data collection, standing guard, tending to the animals, arguing, hunting, cooking, and much much more.

[Blue Lantern]

Ummm.... None of that applies to the OP. Well, I guess the spell casters could have forgone combat spells for utility spells and use their slot outside of combat. But, your comment really has little to do with this thread and is bringing your personal baggage about the Fighter from your thread to this one.

Thanks for the support, but I don't really want you to start an argument on my behalf, I decided to simply ignore the guy, nothing comes from answering him.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I second (third?) the suggestion to encourage more roleplaying if the player isn't doing much out of combat. I run a party composed of a Paladin, a Rogue, a Wizard, a Monk and a Barbarian. You wouldn't think at first blush, based on their class abilities, that the Barbarian and the Monk take the lead for most of the non combat encounters. But they do, simply because they really like that part of the game, and not because they are optimized for it.
Heck, even the wizard tries to talk his way through most encounters instead of using spells, just 'cause he loves speaking in character and acting out scenes.

[Zman]

The EK specifically may be a little limited, but the character isn't. The character is more than just the class. Every background comes with a Background Feature that adds a bit of narrative power, and every character is a full person capable of doing the things that people can do - including talked, problem solving, data collection, standing guard, tending to the animals, arguing, hunting, cooking, and much much more.

Yes, despite having fewer mechanical OOC options that some other classes, they still have significantly more OOC options than in previous editions, and due to bounded accuracy they are relevant the entire game. How a character is played is the most important part and as I said in an earlier post I'm guessing the player believes they have no OOC options therefore isn't attempting to contribute OOC.

[Blue Lantern]

I second (third?) the suggestion to encourage more roleplaying if the player isn't doing much out of combat. I run a party composed of a Paladin, a Rogue, a Wizard, a Monk and a Barbarian. You wouldn't think at first blush, based on their class abilities, that the Barbarian and the Monk take the lead most of the non combat encounters. But they do, simply because they really like that part of the game, and not because they are optimized for it.
Heck, even the wizard tries to talk his way through most encounters instead of using spells, just 'cause he loves speaking in character and acting out scenes.

To add to that, I was in a game with a guy playing an eldrich knight in a couple of session that basically had no combat at all, and he was the one most involved, because he was roleplaying a lot.
Again, I think that with some specific it would be easier to help.

[BiPolar]

What Backgeound did he choose?
What class Siills did he choose?

I'm wondering if the problem is more he believes h has no out of combat options therefore he doesn't try to do anything out of combat. There is no reason he can't contribute, especially at level 4.

This will help us out a lot here with giving suggestions on what he could be doing.

[sxmedicus]

It's "out of combat".

Sadly, Eldritch Knights don't have many out-of-combat abilities, which is why the DM should build connections with NPCs and encourage good role-playing.

oh! my bad!, must have been too sleepy. Im the Druid on this tread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?486146-D-amp-D-5e-2-player-combo-The-Direwolf-Riding-Knight and have had just 2 combats since we started and we all are having lots of fun... yes, it doesnt matter which class you are or any of your stats... you dont have to be good on any skill to contribute by using it.
I believe your EK may consider a background change if he feels so inclined, a noble adds some utility outside of combat and opens up many rolplaying aplications... another example, the Rider on my post has no social skill but has all the initiative towards speaking, she's always blotching it but it sure is fun to follow about :P

[Specter]

I can't imagine anything this man would be a specialist at other than combat. If there were no wizard, he would be the Arcana guy, but as it is...

What can happen, instead, is him being the best to deal with people like him: an Eldritch Knight school, a band of mercenaries, the city guards...

[BiPolar]

I can't imagine anything this man would be a specialist at other than combat. If there were no wizard, he would be the Arcana guy, but as it is...

What can happen, instead, is him being the best to deal with people like him: an Eldritch Knight school, a band of mercenaries, the city guards...

Yes, but his background and skills may say otherwise. That's why we need to know what those are. But mostly, fighters are muscle...which has it's role in and out of combat.

[Blue Lantern]

I can't imagine anything this man would be a specialist at other than combat. If there were no wizard, he would be the Arcana guy, but as it is...

What can happen, instead, is him being the best to deal with people like him: an Eldritch Knight school, a band of mercenaries, the city guards...

So if you are not a specialist is not even worth trying? That's a sad philosophy.

And not even the case, because apparently the ek is the only dex based character (maybe shared with the ranger, not clear), so there is already something he should be able to do a bit better than the rest of the team.

And that's why all the suggestion in the thread are only marginally useful unless we know more details about the situation.

[Roughishguy86]

It sounds like your player is playing a class on a sheet of paper rather than a character in a world that is alive and adapting.

Any class of any level can contribute to the roleplaying aspect of roleplaying games your class doesn't matter all that much.

No one walks up to the local lord and says hello my name is hitty mcstabstabs the fighter here is a list of my skills.

However he might wwalk up to the same person and engage him in a conversation.

You just need too let your player know that he's playing a table top rpg not a video game his actions aren't limited to what his character sheet says or what your typical EK can do. He should create a personality for his character complete with life goals and morals and then act accordingly ooc.

(Edit. i can't type)

[JoeJ]

Hey guys, Aldarin here. So, I just started DMing for some of my cousins and introduced them to D&D. They're level 4 now, and the party-- a fighter, a wizard, a paladin, and a ranger--are learning quickly. However, the fighter is worried that he isn't contributing enough out of combat, so I made this thread to gather ideas about how I can maximize his potential.

He's a DEX-Based EK, if that helps

In summary, just trying to find some ways to help a fighter find out of combat potential.

Thanks,
Aldarin

A character is not a class. What else is this EK besides a fighter? What is his background, skills, tools, languages? Who does he know in the world?

If he's asking what he can do, whether in or out of combat, he's asking the wrong question. In 5e it works much better if you start with asking what he wants to do in any given situation. Then figure out what's required to make that happen.

[Aldarin]

Thanks a ton for all of the ideas! I really appreciate it. I'll be implementing some of these ideas soon.

Responding to some posts:

Rusian: Great idea! Thieve's tools would be a good investment for him.

GWJ_DanyBoy (and everybody else who agreed with him): I'll try to cut out some extended battles to allow for more roleplaying. Thanks for bringing that up!

JoeJ: Sorry, I should have given more information.

He's a Variant Human, with crossbow expert feat. He's an Outlander. His skills are Perception, Stealth, Athletics, Survival, and Intimidation. His scores are:

STR 8
DEX 19
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 10
Languages: Common, Elvish, Orc.

He's Neutral Good.

I don't remember his tools, ideals, traits, etc., but I'll post them when we meet up again in a couple of days.

[Blue Lantern]

Thanks a ton for all of the ideas! I really appreciate it. I'll be implementing some of these ideas soon.

Responding to some posts:

Rusian: Great idea! Thieve's tools would be a good investment for him.

GWJ_DanyBoy (and everybody else who agreed with him): I'll try to cut out some extended battles to allow for more roleplaying. Thanks for bringing that up!

JoeJ: Sorry, I should have given more information.

He's a Variant Human, with crossbow expert feat. He's an Outlander. His skills are Perception, Stealth, Athletics, Survival, and Intimidation. His scores are:

STR 8
DEX 19
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 10
Languages: Common, Elvish, Orc.

He's Neutral Good.

I don't remember his tools, ideals, traits, etc., but I'll post them when we meet up again in a couple of days.

Aldarin, if you don't mind, could you also give us an idea of what the other classes skills and background are like.

In any case, the biggest issue I see is that taking the outlander background he basically trying to get to do some of the ranger job, but of course the ranger will be better at it, and of course he is a bit worse than the paladin at social stuff and than the wizard at knowledge stuff.

If you are open to tweak him a little maybe you could let him switch background to urchin or criminal or something to have him more focused in the skill part that the rest of the group do not has.

Still, even like this what he could do is pair with the other, for instance play bad cop (with intimidate) to the paladin good cop for social encounters, also help a bit the ranger and wizard when their respective skills are used, that way you can put him in a jack of all trades situation where he is always involved, even if not always the centre of attention.

[Vogonjeltz]

Hey guys, Aldarin here. So, I just started DMing for some of my cousins and introduced them to D&D. They're level 4 now, and the party-- a fighter, a wizard, a paladin, and a ranger--are learning quickly. However, the fighter is worried that he isn't contributing enough out of combat, so I made this thread to gather ideas about how I can maximize his potential.

He's a DEX-Based EK, if that helps

In summary, just trying to find some ways to help a fighter find out of combat potential.

Thanks,
Aldarin

Short answer: Anything he wants.

Long answer (involves you responding to some questions):

What out of combat scenarios are coming up where the player feels they aren't contributing? Remember, a character can attempt basically anything they can imagine, there are no real limitations beyond what the player can imagine their character doing.

Social situations: Do they want to try to intimidate, deceive, or persuade someone? Have them describe what they want to say and what reaction they're trying to elicit (this helps resolve DM/Player outcome intent, plus it can result in amusing conversations between friends if something kind of absurd is described, which adds to the gaming experience, alot of this game is the social interaction between the DM and the players). Then determine the kind of check (if one even seems warranted, maybe what they've said is perfectly reasonable in and of itself, and should just work) and have them roll to see if they succeed.

Exploration situations: Have them look around, ask questions about the environment, in short, say things and try to do things. It doesn't have to have a maximized chance of success to be a worthwhile activity by the player. In fact, I find the most satisfying accomplishments are often those that maybe didn't have a very good chance of working. Failure is usually anticipated, so victory is all the sweeter.

If the fighter wants to do more things keyed off their specific repetoire of skill proficiencies/abilities, we'd need to know what cantrips/spells they chose, what skill proficiencies they chose, what their background is (in short, who is this character?) class won't tell you much of anything at all. Another thing, skill proficiency only makes it easier to achieve the goal sought, it's not actually a gate to making the attempt in the first place for most any thing where failure is a possibility.


Can't we just help out the OP for once without getting into a massive debate over it?

If you were to refer to the Wilcox-Laird trait list #3, #4, #10, #12, #16, #18, and #21...probably not.

(If you don't know what that is, short answer: People argue...alot, and to paraphrase Miley Cyrus out of context, they can't stop, they won't stop).

[BiPolar]

He's a Variant Human, with crossbow expert feat. He's an Outlander. His skills are Perception, Stealth, Athletics, Survival, and Intimidation. His scores are:

STR 8
DEX 19
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 13
CHA 10
Languages: Common, Elvish, Orc.

He's Neutral Good.

I don't remember his tools, ideals, traits, etc., but I'll post them when we meet up again in a couple of days.

His background and skills are great for out of combat situations. I think the bigger issue, and the good news is that it's quite resolvable, is that he isn't sure how to roleplay. His ideals, bonds, and flaws will continue to flesh out his personality and affect how he does what he does out of combat, but he's got a great start.

Yes, he's a fighter, but unless he's wearing armor that gives him disadvantage on stealth, he's one helluva stealthy fighter. The outlander makes him a master survivalist. He knows how to get by in the wilds, but no reason why this can't start to translate over time to cities. Yes, he's a bit uncomfortable, but he's smart as well. He's learned to adapt his skills to a city. He knows what's around him (perception), he's strong (Athletics) and likes to intimidate(maybe especially so because he's uncomfortable in the city), and he's sneaky! Intimidate is tough because it's a Charisma skill, maybe let him swap it for He can scout and gather information very well with those skills. Maybe swap it out for Acrobatics (helps with his stealthy maneuvers) or insight to pair with perception and with dealing with people and animals.

[Blue Lantern]

If you were to refer to the Wilcox-Laird trait list #3, #4, #10, #12, #16, #18, and #21...probably not.

(If you don't know what that is, short answer: People argue...alot, and to paraphrase Miley Cyrus out of context, they can't stop, they won't stop).

That's a, let's say, generous interpretation of that list.

[MrFahrenheit]

Question for the OP: is it the character not doing a lot out of combat, or the player?

If the former, that may very well be ok, especially as the game is meant to be social. The player can contribute ideas and advice to another player whose character would perform the actual checks. As long as everyone is having fun, the physical rolling-of-the-dice need not actually matter. In my campaign, the players of cha 8 characters constantly contribute advice to the cha-laden ones during social interactions. Same is true for dex- or any other ability.

If the latter, then you may have a bigger problem with how the player understands the game. Do you award non-combat XP? I do, and divide it equally among players for any given encounter, regardless of contribution, so long as the party was together. One player advising another to "say X" (from a non social character to a social one) in a non combat encounter is effectively the same as advising "cast X" (from a non caster to a caster) in a combat one.

At the end of a session, I rate how successful I was as DM by whether or not everyone had fun.