Optimizing the Disembodied Spirit Template

[ATHATH]

At first glance, the Disembodied Spirit template (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030924a) seems very good. It grants incorporeality and the Rejuvenation ability, has an LA entry of "as the base creature", doesn't give the templated creature the Undead type, and sets the templated creature's CR to 0 (!!!).

There are just two teensy, weensy, little problems: the templated creature can only make a single move action per turn and loses all of its attacks.

Immediately, I see a few noticeable tricks:
1. The template doesn't actually say that you lose your standard and swift actions; just that you can only take 1 move action per turn (which, unless you're using a Belt of Battle or something, shouldn't come up much).
2. The template sets the templated creature's CR to 0. This means that, using the reading shown in trick 1, a DM could legally throw a nearly fully-powered, bazillionth-level, Disembodied Spirit monster at a group of level 1 characters. Take that, TDC!

Does trick 1 work?

What useful, combat-related things could a Disembodied Spirit do with its single move-action (if trick 1 is ruled to not work)?

What other abuses of this template can the Playground come up with?

[Troacctid]

Trick 1 does not work. You are limited to a single move action on your turn.

You could actually use the single move action to make a partial charge. The problem with this is that you have no attacks.

[Jack_Simth]

It doesn't have a special attacks line; something with a damaging aura could still pose a problem for a low-level party.

[Chewychunga]

would there be any way to turn this into a PC? or would it be crazy overpowered for a la+0 template? and any way to REGAIN your standard action after you apply template?

[Belzyk]

Be a psion or Wilder o.o ghost that does ghostly things without speaking xD even better be a Dragonborn Elen psion xD lmao ohhhh I'm so going to be a Elen psion ghost thingy now

[Troacctid]

Be a psion or Wilder o.o ghost that does ghostly things without speaking xD even better be a Dragonborn Elen psion xD lmao ohhhh I'm so going to be a Elen psion ghost thingy now

How are you doing things without standard or swift actions, though?

[ATHATH]

would there be any way to turn this into a PC? or would it be crazy overpowered for a la+0 template? and any way to REGAIN your standard action after you apply template?
It has an LA entry of "Same as the base creature.", so it's legal to add to a PC. Even if it wasn't, you could just visit the portal that grants the template in-game.

[Belzyk]

How are you doing things without standard or swift actions, though?

Because it says you have no attacks. Casting isn't an attack there is no where's in that entire thing where it says you only get a move action. It just states that you cannot attack. As in physically attacking. Thats something all incorpreal creatures have. None of them can physically attack. Using a spell like ability or extoridnary ability or supernatural ability isn't an attack.

[Jack_Simth]

Because it says you have no attacks. Casting isn't an attack there is no where's in that entire thing where it says you only get a move action. It just states that you cannot attack. As in physically attacking. Thats something all incorpreal creatures have. None of them can physically attack. Using a spell like ability or extoridnary ability or supernatural ability isn't an attack.
How sure are you of that? When I read the link, I see:

Attack: A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn.(emphasis added)

[Belzyk]

How sure are you of that? When I read the link, I see:
(emphasis added)

Well considering invorpreal creatures can only touch and drain str it still has actions. It just can't attack. If you have no actions at all the creature can't even do anything except float around. Its rejuvenation is a action. So it has actions. Just not attacks. Casting isn't an attack. Its an ability. Matter of fact. Per SRD an attack is just something your able to do as a standard action. A move is a action. So all that template stops you from doing is using your standard action as an attack.

[ATHATH]

Well considering invorpreal creatures can only touch and drain str it still has actions. It just can't attack. If you have no actions at all the creature can't even do anything except float around. Its rejuvenation is a action. So it has actions. Just not attacks. Casting isn't an attack. Its an ability. Matter of fact. Per SRD an attack is just something your able to do as a standard action. A move is a action. So all that template stops you from doing is using your standard action as an attack.
Yes, it does have actions- move actions.

Could Ruby Knight Vindicator let a Cleric cast a couple of Quickened spells per day? The Swift action could also be used to activate a Ghost Touch Belt of Battle to get a Full or Standard action, I suppose, if you wanted to do other Standard action-requiring stuff a few times per day.

[Belzyk]

Yes, it does have actions- move actions.

Could Ruby Knight Vindicator let a Cleric cast a couple of Quickened spells per day? The Swift action could also be used to activate a Ghost Touch Belt of Battle to get a Full or Standard action, I suppose, if you wanted to do other Standard action-requiring stuff a few times per day.

You don't need any of that to take a standard action. All that template forbids is using your standard action to attack look up the SRD for actions.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, there go: Apply it to a Medusa, or anything with a gaze attack. Any non-action hazard would be terrible to a low-level party.


You don't need any of that to take a standard action. All that template forbids is using your standard action to attack look up the SRD for actions.

It straight-up says "can make only a single move action each turn". Hard to get clearer than that.

[Belzyk]

Oh, there go: Apply it to a Medusa, or anything with a gaze attack. Any non-action hazard would be terrible to a low-level party.



It straight-up says "can make only a single move action each turn". Hard to get clearer than that.

Umm this is totally raw vs rai then. Because it doesn't state you can't use a standard action just that you can't use your Standard action to attack. Also you can't do anything that allows multiple moves. The template a ill so states you still have all your abilities. And the no attack is only for the attack block. If you retain all abilities you can still cast man.

[Belzyk]

OK I double checked the different types of actions. All this template is stating is you can't do multiple things that require move actions in a single turn. Like drawing a weapon then moving. Also this template doesn't stop any action except attacking. Spells supernatuals extordinatry abilities are all still usable because they are abilities. Not attacks. And this template states you still have access to all abilities. I mean give me solid proof this template stops actions? It doesn't say anyweres on that template that you can't use standard actions just that you cannot use your standard action to attack and that you only get 1 move action a turn. Thats all what's so hard about understanding it. I mean even as RAW it doesn't state you don't get a standard. Your just assumpong because of the wording you don't. Bit the wording doesn't even say that.

[ATHATH]

OK I double checked the different types of actions. All this template is stating is you can't do multiple things that require move actions in a single turn. Like drawing a weapon then moving. Also this template doesn't stop any action except attacking. Spells supernatuals extordinatry abilities are all still usable because they are abilities. Not attacks. And this template states you still have access to all abilities. I mean give me solid proof this template stops actions? It doesn't say anyweres on that template that you can't use standard actions just that you cannot use your standard action to attack and that you only get 1 move action a turn. Thats all what's so hard about understanding it. I mean even as RAW it doesn't state you don't get a standard. Your just assumpong because of the wording you don't. Bit the wording doesn't even say that.
That was my original interpretation (I think; it's at least similar), but apparently Troacctid has reason to believe otherwise. Let's wait for his explanation.

[Belzyk]

That was my original interpretation (I think; it's at least similar), but apparently Troacctid has reason to believe otherwise. Let's wait for his explanation.

I concur. I am still learning about and there's still things I don't understand buy when I have the chance I love to learn. And this template is really imterestimg

[Ruethgar]

I would have to agree with Belzyk. The wording does not limit any other actions, only move actions. So a Disembodied Dvati would get only one move action between them despite normally getting two, but they still have two standard and swift. And White Raven Tactics, or similar ability, would not let them get another move action since it is still on the same turn. It looks like they may have tried to mimic the wording of the Zombie entry, but it doesn't work to the same effect without the or standard action part. RAW, it appears to do nothing to non-move actions.

[Troacctid]

It's the same wording used in the zombie template, and under the partial charge option, so unless you think your actions aren't restricted in those cases...

[Belzyk]

It's the same wording used in the zombie template, and under the partial charge option, so unless you think your actions aren't restricted in those cases...

So how is that going to stop this template from letting me cast and manifest powers? Because I think this would be amazing on an elen psion.

[torrasque666]

So how is that going to stop this template from letting me cast and manifest powers? Because I think this would be amazing on an elen psion.
Because it says that you can "make only a single move action each turn". Zombies have a similar text that says that they can perform "only a single move action or attack action each round". Zombies are limited to an either/or. These things don't even get the or part. Trying to read this as explicitly literal as you're making it is being obtuse. Its clear what they meant. Its clear how its intended. Trying to parse the phrase "A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn." as "A disembodied spirit has no attacks" and "Can make only a single move action each turn." is being deliberately difficult.

Long story short, its meant to make ghosts that cant do anything except float around forever bemoaning their fate.

[Troacctid]

To wit, you can manifest powers just fine, it's just that those powers have to be manifestable as a move action. Most powers aren't. (Although there are a few that are, such as psionic dimension door.)

[Thurbane]

Can't some vestige powers be activated as a move action at higher level?

[Chewychunga]

Because it says that you can "make only a single move action each turn". Zombies have a similar text that says that they can perform "only a single move action or attack action each round". Zombies are limited to an either/or. These things don't even get the or part. Trying to read this as explicitly literal as you're making it is being obtuse. Its clear what they meant. Its clear how its intended. Trying to parse the phrase "A disembodied spirit has no attacks and can make only a single move action each turn." as "A disembodied spirit has no attacks" and "Can make only a single move action each turn." is being deliberately difficult.

Long story short, its meant to make ghosts that cant do anything except float around forever bemoaning their fate.

i totally agree with this.. reason i was asking if you allowed the attacks would it be too op for a la+0
and if you dont allow the attack and only one move and NOTHING else then is there a viable way to make this into a decent / viable build??
always wanted to play a ethrial creature but never play with LA >0

[Troacctid]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403739-Alternate-Uses-of-Move-Actions) is a thread listing uses for move actions. It's not comprehensive, but...there's not much.

[Chewychunga]

lol so reading that list its almost useless to create a char with move only abilitys :P
i didnt see a single damage ability other than maybe spit viper

[Troacctid]

Vipergout is a standard action to cast, so it's not an option.

[Chewychunga]

Lol so then it seems totally useless to use a a PC char

[ILM]

I'm totally slapping this template on a paladin/hexblade passive debuffer.

[Belzyk]

OK so it's more of a RAI thing over RAW thank yaw. I see my interperiting of this template was a lot different.

[Ruethgar]

The intent seems fairly clear that it was supposed to be akin to the zombie, however the "or attack action each round" part of the zombie entry is what makes that ability function as intended. The Disembodied can legitimately be read in two different ways and is just another example of poor writing on the part of WotC(what a surprise). So that would leave it to an "ask your DM" who would undoubtedly rule in favor of the intent or, if he was vindictive/lenient, rule that both are valid and roll 50/50 on which one takes place during a turn.

[Gallowglass]

Hmmm... What about slapping this template on a swarm? Swarms don't really attack, they just do damage to anyone dumb enough to start their turn in the same space as the swarm. Even if you rule the swarm damage to not work, they'd still have the distraction ability which is a passive ability.

[Belzyk]

Even better just use the normal ghost template. Found here
http://realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghost.shtml

I hope I don't get in trouble for posting a link. It has all the goodies of that other one plus some.

[torrasque666]

Even better just use the normal ghost template. Found here
http://realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghost.shtml

I hope I don't get in trouble for posting a link. It has all the goodies of that other one plus some.

Huh. Either Realmshelps uses a different source book, or they forgot about a ghost's LA+5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)

[ATHATH]

Even better just use the normal ghost template. Found here
http://realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghost.shtml

I hope I don't get in trouble for posting a link. It has all the goodies of that other one plus some.
The entire point of using the Disembodied Spirit template over the Ghost template is that the Disembodied Spirit template has an effective LA of +0, which is much lower than the LA of the Ghost template. Plus, the Ghost template doesn't set a creature's CR to 0.

[Belzyk]

The entire point of using the Disembodied Spirit template over the Ghost template is that the Disembodied Spirit template has an effective LA of +0, which is much lower than the LA of the Ghost template. Plus, the Ghost template doesn't set a creature's CR to 0.

In all honesty if something says the la is same as base creature it isn't ment for players. Paragon template is same as base creature also. (I think). Also if your the dm. How are you interpreting the line of text that's causing all the issues. Because it's your game so it can go either way. As a player ask your dm how they would rule it.

[zergling.exe]

In all honesty if something says the la is same as base creature it isn't ment for players. Paragon template is same as base creature also. (I think). Also if your the dm. How are you interpreting the line of text that's causing all the issues. Because it's your game so it can go either way. As a player ask your dm how they would rule it.

If it says LA is the same as base creature that means +0, which is suitable for PCs. Unlisted and LA: - mean they are not suitable for PCs. The Paragon template is special, because it comes from the Epic Handbook, which is 3.0, and was before LA was really finalized.

[daremetoidareyo]

swim-by attack or flyby attack feats

These will give you standard actions.

ride by attack? is a charge a type of attack? or is a charge something else... It probably doesn't matter if you have an ubermount...All you need is the equipment to ride that ubermount. Ghost touch reigns?

The first thing I think about is a sparrow hengeyokai dragonfire adept with the strafing breath feat. Just be a tiny hard to hit ghost bird that breathes real fire (or acid) everywhere it flies.

[Florian]

On a less serious note: This template can be used on any creature that has the death throws feature.
Imagine that: Undead suicide bombers that seek to e caught in AoE effects to detonate... just to rejuvenate some time later. That would make a nasty feature for a dungeon.

[Ruethgar]

Hmmm... What about slapping this template on a swarm? Swarms don't really attack, they just do damage to anyone dumb enough to start their turn in the same space as the swarm. Even if you rule the swarm damage to not work, they'd still have the distraction ability which is a passive ability.

And the Swarm subtype has no LA adjustments associated with it while an Antropomorphic Murder of Crows is considered the same as an Antropomorphic Raven... an anthro swarm just seems all kinds of wrong though.

[daremetoidareyo]

And the Swarm subtype has no LA adjustments associated with it while an Antropomorphic Murder of Crows is considered the same as an Antropomorphic Raven... an anthro swarm just seems all kinds of wrong though.

Silly mortal, I'm made up of tiny birds! Mwahahaha.