Demi-Lich Vs Cthuhlu

[Belzyk]

So say I'm a 30th level Demi lich with ya know problems..... as in enjoying terrorizing elder things..... could I theoretically terrorize Cthuhulu and ya know walk away unscathed. Assume my skull has been made out of that crazy force water material from stormwreck also my soul crystals to.

[Vizzerdrix]

Without a steam ship, no. You go mad and decide ice cream is next season biggest fasion.

[Thealtruistorc]

For this purpose, are we using Cthulhu's stats from the Pathfinder Bestiary 4? In that case, I think you may have a solid chance of taking him. Thuly has relatively few immunities for a creature of his stature, and his nasty spell effects won't be able to do much to the demilich.

[ATHATH]

N/A

This explains why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DyRxlvM9VM

[ATHATH]

For this purpose, are we using Cthulhu's stats from the Pathfinder Bestiary 4? In that case, I think you may have a solid chance of taking him. Thuly has relatively few immunities for a creature of his stature, and his nasty spell effects won't be able to do much to the demilich.
Ugh, they just HAD to stat him out, didn't they...

Then yes, a properly optimized Demilich would win, but only because the devs didn't implement Cthulhu properly.

[Belzyk]

Ugh, they just HAD to stat him out, didn't they...

Then yes, a properly optimized Demilich would win, but only because the devs didn't implement Cthulhu properly.

OK well what if we go with a unstated version of him. Would I still be able to terrorized the fudger? Even if I had to use cheese. And I don't think I'd have to worry about insanity. Unread are immune to fear insanity is a type of fear.

[ATHATH]

OK well what if we go with a unstated version of him. Would I still be able to terrorized the fudger? Even if I had to use cheese. And I don't think I'd have to worry about insanity. Unread are immune to fear insanity is a type of fear.
No.

Watch the video in my link; it explains my point better than I could.

[Belzyk]

No.

Watch the video in my link; it explains my point better than I could.

I've seen that video. Still doesn't answer my question. With cthuhlus powers and a Demi liches powers. Could I.....ohhh ice cream hey guys guys putting ice cream on your head is totes next seasons fashion man. ..talking to a empty piece of the far realm..

[Xuldarinar]

I've seen that video. Still doesn't answer my question. With cthuhlus powers and a Demi liches powers. Could I.....ohhh ice cream hey guys guys putting ice cream on your head is totes next seasons fashion man. ..talking to a empty piece of the far realm..

No.

To put it simply, it is because you can still comprehend it.

[Belzyk]

No.

To put it simply, it is because you can still comprehend it.

Eh was worth a try. Guess I'll just go get a steamship

[Strigon]

The issue with Cthuhlu is that it was impossible for mortal minds to comprehend. And it was written by a mortal mind, for mortal minds.
But by level 30, as a Demi-Lich, you're far beyond "Mortal mind". You have earth-shattering powers, and beings of incomprehensible power to us are playmates to you. Cthuhlu does have limitations; it's just that we can't understand them. He's an entirely unknown being to us, so asking if your character can beat him is meaningless. Cthuhlu is meant to be mysterious, otherworldly, and undefined. It's like asking if you compared a car to "something heavy" and asked which weighed more; there isn't enough information there to even begin with an answer..

[Belzyk]

The issue with Cthuhlu is that it was impossible for mortal minds to comprehend. And it was written by a mortal mind, for mortal minds.
But by level 30, as a Demi-Lich, you're far beyond "Mortal mind". You have earth-shattering powers, and beings of incomprehensible power to us are playmates to you. Cthuhlu does have limitations; it's just that we can't understand them. He's an entirely unknown being to us, so asking if your character can beat him is meaningless. Cthuhlu is meant to be mysterious, otherworldly, and undefined. It's like asking if you compared a car to "something heavy" and asked which weighed more; there isn't enough information there to even begin with an answer..

I never said beat....I just wanna know if I could terrorize the f*cker and survive as a level 30 demilich

[Morcleon]

I never said beat....I just wanna know if I could terrorize the f*cker and survive as a level 30 demilich

Again, same issue. The powers and defenses that Cthulu has are ambiguous, so there's no concrete way to figure it out. The most accurate answer to your question is "maybe". :smalltongue:

[Xuldarinar]

I suppose you could cause problems for Cthulhu, or any of the other Great Old Ones/Outer Gods... But that having been said, you would risk drawing their attention and thus in turn cause problems for yourself.

[Belzyk]

Again, same issue. The powers and defenses that Cthulu has are ambiguous, so there's no concrete way to figure it out. The most accurate answer to your question is "maybe". :smalltongue:

Maybe is better then no. ..straps his skull to the steamship and sets sail.. On a more normal note. How would yaw recommend introducing the far realm into a game? Id like it to act as a single being that's kinda been forced to be exposed to the rest of my multiverse and trys to lash out anytime it makes contact with the multiverse . And think of all the creatures as cells in a body. (Creatures from the far realm I mean. And pseudonatural creatures)

[Belzyk]

I suppose you could cause problems for Cthulhu, or any of the other Great Old Ones/Outer Gods... But that having been said, you would risk drawing their attention and thus in turn cause problems for yourself.

As a Demi lich it would totally be worth it. XD I can see a Demi lich basically playing his/her own version of the great game. And forcing great old ones to participate without them even knowing. Just for the lulz

[Strigon]

If you want to just cause him trouble, I'd say that's an unqualified "yes".
I mean, by level 30, you should be far more powerful than anything humanity had at the time - depending on your class, maybe anything we currently have. You should definitely be able to outdo a lousy steamship. Of course, we don't know what would be different about him once he was completely awoken, but in the interim you should certainly give him some trouble.

[Starmage21]

The Far Realm is made of herp and derp. Dont know what those words mean? GOOD! Neither do I, and you can't define The Far Realm either. The only thing that The Far Realm is a place that has rules, and has no problem breaking the rules, and the rules you understand that make the world apply there and they dont have a problem not applying too. Like literally having spiders in your brain and for some reason you're not dead.

the Far Realm is a cheap cop-out for a realm of chaos that doesnt follow any rules and for some reason they didnt want to use Limbo.

[Red Fel]

OK well what if we go with a unstated version of him. Would I still be able to terrorized the fudger? Even if I had to use cheese. And I don't think I'd have to worry about insanity. Unread are immune to fear insanity is a type of fear.

Well, here's the thing. Dealing with Cthulhu boils down to two elements:
How you withstand Cthulhu.
How Cthulhu withstands you.
Let's address each.

First: How you withstand Cthulhu. The issue with Cthulhu isn't that he's scary, or that he's incomprehensible. The issue is that he is so far beyond us, that the very fact that he can exist makes other forms of existence utterly worthless.

Have you ever seen a photograph of the Earth from space? I don't mean from the moon - I mean from way out there (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5b/2f/c2/5b2fc253fe939c38e8afc592039dd3a4.jpg). Seeing that tiny speck amidst the void makes you feel incredibly small. But it also makes you feel important, because, alone in space, you are one of only a few billion beings that exist.

Now, imagine that feeling of smallness without the importance. That's what Cthulhu does. You see him - a being so complex, so massive, so utterly beyond any knowable existence - and realize that you are as insignificant as the ants beneath your feet. You realize that an entire race of such beings must exist, and that your life by comparison is utterly inconsequential.

Insanity is not a form of fear; it is insanity. Even so, Cthulhu doesn't have some sort of magical madness field you can resist. The madness comes from that sudden, reality-breaking realization that every rule you believed that governed reality is a lie, that every act you have ever accomplished and could ever achieve is pointless, and that you are so utterly, desperately, alone and worthless in the cosmos that nothing matters.

That is what Cthulhu does. And even a Lich could scarce withstand it.

Now, on the subject of how Cthulhu would withstand you:


The Far Realm is made of herp and derp. Dont know what those words mean? GOOD! Neither do I, and you can't define The Far Realm either. The only thing that The Far Realm is a place that has rules, and has no problem breaking the rules, and the rules you understand that make the world apply there and they dont have a problem not applying too. Like literally having spiders in your brain and for some reason you're not dead.

the Far Realm is a cheap cop-out for a realm of chaos that doesnt follow any rules and for some reason they didnt want to use Limbo.

This. If we go for an un-statted Cthulhu, as we should, he is less of a creature to be fought and more of a cosmic force. This isn't Pacific Rim. He's not even going to acknowledge you, because your attacks fall within the rules of a reality he doesn't acknowledge. Fire cannot burn him, because combustion is a cosmic force he exists beyond; you cannot affect his mind, as it exists beyond our understanding of minds. You can neither harm his body nor his spirit, as both exist outside of all rules of magic and reality.

Declaring war on Cthulhu is like declaring war on gravity. You can limit gravity's impact on you, but you really can't do a thing about gravity itself. And gravity certainly doesn't care one way or the other.

[Belzyk]

The Far Realm is made of herp and derp. Dont know what those words mean? GOOD! Neither do I, and you can't define The Far Realm either. The only thing that The Far Realm is a place that has rules, and has no problem breaking the rules, and the rules you understand that make the world apply there and they dont have a problem not applying too. Like literally having spiders in your brain and for some reason you're not dead.

the Far Realm is a cheap cop-out for a realm of chaos that doesnt follow any rules and for some reason they didnt want to use Limbo.

So how could I incorporate that as a single entity that is being forced Upton my multiverse. I was kinda wanting use it as a large scale battle or 2

[Belzyk]

Well, here's the thing. Dealing with Cthulhu boils down to two elements:
How you withstand Cthulhu.
How Cthulhu withstands you.
Let's address each.

First: How you withstand Cthulhu. The issue with Cthulhu isn't that he's scary, or that he's incomprehensible. The issue is that he is so far beyond us, that the very fact that he can exist makes other forms of existence utterly worthless.

Have you ever seen a photograph of the Earth from space? I don't mean from the moon - I mean from way out there (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5b/2f/c2/5b2fc253fe939c38e8afc592039dd3a4.jpg). Seeing that tiny speck amidst the void makes you feel incredibly small. But it also makes you feel important, because, alone in space, you are one of only a few billion beings that exist.

Now, imagine that feeling of smallness without the importance. That's what Cthulhu does. You see him - a being so complex, so massive, so utterly beyond any knowable existence - and realize that you are as insignificant as the ants beneath your feet. You realize that an entire race of such beings must exist, and that your life by comparison is utterly inconsequential.

Insanity is not a form of fear; it is insanity. Even so, Cthulhu doesn't have some sort of magical madness field you can resist. The madness comes from that sudden, reality-breaking realization that every rule you believed that governed reality is a lie, that every act you have ever accomplished and could ever achieve is pointless, and that you are so utterly, desperately, alone and worthless in the cosmos that nothing matters.

That is what Cthulhu does. And even a Lich could scarce withstand it.

Now, on the subject of how Cthulhu would withstand you:



This. If we go for an un-statted Cthulhu, as we should, he is less of a creature to be fought and more of a cosmic force. This isn't Pacific Rim. He's not even going to acknowledge you, because your attacks fall within the rules of a reality he doesn't acknowledge. Fire cannot burn him, because combustion is a cosmic force he exists beyond; you cannot affect his mind, as it exists beyond our understanding of minds. You can neither harm his body nor his spirit, as both exist outside of all rules of magic and reality.

Declaring war on Cthulhu is like declaring war on gravity. You can limit gravity's impact on you, but you really can't do a thing about gravity itself. And gravity certainly doesn't care one way or the other.

Idk man a Demi lich with 30 levels of spell casting is kinda reality breaking in of itself wouldnt you say. I understand your argument but at the same time taking a look at epic level casting in Dnd I could totally see a Demi lich being able to comprehend cthulhu I mean if I'm able to warp bend and remake reality to my will I'm pretty sure that's on par with cthulu in a sense that the fact that he exists isn't gonna be as traumatic for a creature that can litteraly say screw everything. And unmake reality. I'm just curious how I could use this understanding of the big C to make the farm realm into a encroaching enitiy that's being forced upon my multiverse by outside forces. Specifically the 4th dimensional being known as D of the M

[Red Fel]

Idk man a Demi lich with 30 levels of spell casting is kinda reality breaking in of itself wouldnt you say. I understand your argument but at the same time taking a look at epic level casting in Dnd I could totally see a Demi lich being able to comprehend cthulhu I mean if I'm able to warp bend and remake reality to my will I'm pretty sure that's on par with cthulu in a sense that the fact that he exists isn't gonna be as traumatic for a creature that can litteraly say screw everything. And unmake reality. I'm just curious how I could use this understanding of the big C to make the farm realm into a encroaching enitiy that's being forced upon my multiverse by outside forces. Specifically the 4th dimensional being known as D of the M

No. A Demilich with 30 levels of casting is exceptionally powerful at casting. He can break the game, or the action economy; he can access NI Wishes or what-have-you. But he still exists within reality and within its rules.

Your response suggests to me that you have an answer in mind. Clearly, your goal is to have a Demilich confront and defeat Cthulhu (which, if Cthulhu is played as originally conceived, won't happen, your argument notwithstanding) so that your character can use that knowledge to kill the DM (also impossible by any metric unless the DM self-inserts). I know what answer you want to hear, but it's not the one I'm giving you.

Want to kill the DM? Kill the DM.1 Otherwise, get used to the idea that no matter how powerful the character, statted mechanical abilities will not defeat an un-statted cosmic force. Not going to happen.

1 Please don't kill the DM. Murder is illegal.

[Belzyk]

No. A Demilich with 30 levels of casting is exceptionally powerful at casting. He can break the game, or the action economy; he can access NI Wishes or what-have-you. But he still exists within reality and within its rules.

Your response suggests to me that you have an answer in mind. Clearly, your goal is to have a Demilich confront and defeat Cthulhu (which, if Cthulhu is played as originally conceived, won't happen, your argument notwithstanding) so that your character can use that knowledge to kill the DM (also impossible by any metric unless the DM self-inserts). I know what answer you want to hear, but it's not the one I'm giving you.

Want to kill the DM? Kill the DM.1 Otherwise, get used to the idea that no matter how powerful the character, statted mechanical abilities will not defeat an un-statted cosmic force. Not going to happen.

1 Please don't kill the DM. Murder is illegal.

I was just curious if a Demi lich could. And at the same time I see using cthuhlu as a base for a far realm invasion would be useful. I'm just trying to figure out how to incorporate this. I just don't know how to incorporate gargantuan tentacles or random eyeballs appearing in the sky and getting my team of players to fight it off. Imagine the Manos Grande from Bleach. The sky begins to shatter and there's now horrors spewing from it. How would I be able to get my players to cope with what's happening and fight it?

[Red Fel]

I was just curious if a Demi lich could. And at the same time I see using cthuhlu as a base for a far realm invasion would be useful. I'm just trying to figure out how to incorporate this. I just don't know how to incorporate gargantuan tentacles or random eyeballs appearing in the sky and getting my team of players to fight it off

It's simple.

Either Cthulhu is just another form of big cosmic horror, an epic-level statted monster that can be fought and killed like other epic-level statted monsters, or he is the literary Cthulhu and his awakening heralds the unstoppable end of all things.

One of these makes for a great and climactic boss fight. One of them makes for an apocalypse.

If you want the boss fight, do the boss fight. It's Pacific Rim. Ever watched Pacific Rim? A fight against boss-Cthulhu is that. Do that, and worry less about the cosmic madness.

[Belzyk]

It's simple.

Either Cthulhu is just another form of big cosmic horror, an epic-level statted monster that can be fought and killed like other epic-level statted monsters, or he is the literary Cthulhu and his awakening heralds the unstoppable end of all things.

One of these makes for a great and climactic boss fight. One of them makes for an apocalypse.

If you want the boss fight, do the boss fight. It's Pacific Rim. Ever watched Pacific Rim? A fight against boss-Cthulhu is that. Do that, and worry less about the cosmic madness.

Hmmm thank you. I have watched that and ehh. I'm not giving my players mechas to fight with Lol. I'm gonna have to think on this. I do want them to feel like their efforts are futile that they just keep pushing the inevitable back. And would like them to figure out what's causing the far realm to leak into their multiverse.

[Knight Magenta]

It depends on genre conventions. If you are playing a horror game, then Cthuhlu always wins. The best you can hope for is to remain sane for a while longer.

If you are playing a game about action and adventure, then sufficient skill can overcome any foe.

I don't really get why people complain about Cthuhlu being stated. Just because it can not be opposed by mere mortals, does not mean that heroes who can punch out gods can't oppose Cthuhlu and win.

Re: the realization of your insignificance.
This does not seem that scary to me. Sure, you are insignificant to Cthuhlu. But your life is just as valuable as it was before to you. I mean, consider our reality. In a few billion years the sun will explode and destroy earth. If we survive that, then some time later the universe itself will die. Thinking about that gives me existential dread now and again. All that we do will turn to dust and be forgotten in time. Heck, I know that when I die, in a few centuries there will be nothing of me left. Probably not even memories. And ya, that sucks, but then you shrug and move on with life because you can't do anything about it, so why stress over it?


Besides, if some two-bit cult can chant and dance and wake up an elder thing, that means we can interact with them. If you can interact with it, you can kill it.

[Hecuba]

If you're looking at whether or not you can take a given being X from fiction, a good starting point is to consider whether or not you can take some other insanely powerful fictional being Y that is still less powerful than X.

If the answer to that question is not an easy "yes," then the answer to the first question is probably "no."

So, let's fit that to Cthulhu. If Cthulhu is X, then what should be Y? Y still needs to be mindbogglingly powerful and able to interact with reality on levels significantly higher that our perception of the universe, but should not be entirely beyond human context.

So let us take Y to be a Q, from Star Trek:TNG. Can your level 30 demi-lich beat a Q - a being from a race where gunshots are supernovae and who can casually change the gravitational constant of the universe on a whim?

If not, (with appropriate apologies to the Bestiary) Cthulhu is likely not in your range.

[Bronk]

I was just curious if a Demi lich could. And at the same time I see using cthuhlu as a base for a far realm invasion would be useful. I'm just trying to figure out how to incorporate this. I just don't know how to incorporate gargantuan tentacles or random eyeballs appearing in the sky and getting my team of players to fight it off. Imagine the Manos Grande from Bleach. The sky begins to shatter and there's now horrors spewing from it. How would I be able to get my players to cope with what's happening and fight it?

This sounds more like an elder evil incursion mixed with a Far Realm breach and an invasion of Moon Calves (MM2).

Edit: After looking at the statted pathfinder version of Cthulu... It looks like it doesn't matter who would win in a fight. Cthulu is literally unkillable, and the demilich is just a construct left behind by the real lich to protect its hoard while it's consciousness travels the planes. (Oh neat! In Pathfinder, they can also be made because the lich gets so bored it lets itself and its phylactery crumble away into nothing! So... I guess in that case the real lich would just be missing out on the one interesting thing that would have happened to it in who knows how long...)

[Belzyk]

This sounds more like an elder evil incursion mixed with a Far Realm breach and an invasion of Moon Calves (MM2).

Edit: After looking at the statted pathfinder version of Cthulu... It looks like it doesn't matter who would win in a fight. Cthulu is literally unkillable, and the demilich is just a construct left behind by the real lich to protect its hoard while it's consciousness travels the planes. (Oh neat! In Pathfinder, they can also be made because the lich gets so bored it lets itself and its phylactery crumble away into nothing! So... I guess in that case the real lich would just be missing out on the one interesting thing that would have happened to it in who knows how long...)

Yeah wtf is a moon calve. To the monster manual. And Demi liches sent constructs. They are liches that have become so powerful and use soul shards and get ridnof their plyactry. And they only have their skull. See this is changing to what I want Lol cthuhlu type elder evil

[Strigon]

If you're looking at whether or not you can take a given being X from fiction, a good starting point is to consider whether or not you can take some other insanely powerful fictional being Y that is still less powerful than X.

If the answer to that question is not an easy "yes," then the answer to the first question is probably "no."

So, let's fit that to Cthulhu. If Cthulhu is X, then what should be Y? Y still needs to be mindbogglingly powerful and able to interact with reality on levels significantly higher that our perception of the universe, but should not be entirely beyond human context.

So let us take Y to be a Q, from Star Trek:TNG. Can your level 30 demi-lich beat a Q - a being from a race where gunshots are supernovae and who can casually change the gravitational constant of the universe on a whim?

If not, (with appropriate apologies to the Bestiary) Cthulhu is likely not in your range.

I'd argue that Q is more powerful than Cthuhlu; or at least on par.
Cthuhlu is a force of nature.
Q, on the other hand, controls forces of nature. Never mind that he could pop back in time and slam steamship after steamship into ol' fang-fins and prevent him from ever waking up, he can alter the gravitational constant of the universe. Which means, directly relating to Red Fel's previous post, he can actually make gravity obey him, as opposed to just ignore him.

[Bronk]

Yeah wtf is a moon calve. To the monster manual.

The Moon Calf is in Monster Manual 2, for 3.5. I don't know if they're in Pathfinder directly. They're basically eldritch alien horrors from space that look similar to a flying Cthulu, but without the humanoid body. They range in size from large to gargantuan, so they're smaller than regular Cthulu.

[LTwerewolf]

I'd argue that the demilich is even more susceptible to Cthulhu's insanity. Beyond any other mortal, they feel themselves to be supremely powerful; they matter more than anything else that has ever existed. Until Cthulhu. The higher on the ladder, the further the fall.

[Melcar]

I've seen that video. Still doesn't answer my question. With cthuhlus powers and a Demi liches powers. Could I.....ohhh ice cream hey guys guys putting ice cream on your head is totes next seasons fashion man. ..talking to a empty piece of the far realm..

It can not be attacked... nor be represented in a being. So no... You can not target, see, touch, smell, or hear it. Its not here or there its everywhere!!!

[Whyareall]

I'd argue that the demilich is even more susceptible to Cthulhu's insanity. Beyond any other mortal, they feel themselves to be supremely powerful; they matter more than anything else that has ever existed. Until Cthulhu. The higher on the ladder, the further the fall.

Demiliches have fly 180 ft (perfect)

[Bronk]

I'd argue that the demilich is even more susceptible to Cthulhu's insanity

Not so much, since demiliches are immune to mind affecting effects.

[Âmesang]

It can not be attacked... nor be represented in a being. So no... You can not target, see, touch, smell, or hear it. Its not here or there its everywhere!!!
Ah, so it's an area of effect. Does it allow a Reflex for half?

[Belzyk]

Ah, so it's an area of effect. Does it allow a Reflex for half?

Naw Ulrag'Valriza is everywhere. His Demi Lich powers has transcended mortality he has crushed phanes and eats pandymins (whatever that elder evil is) for lunch. xD no mere concious being can withstand his mighty Nope! Spell. Lmao (just role playing here)

[Draco_Lord]

N/A

This explains why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DyRxlvM9VM

You know, on this point. As the video points out Cthuhlu shows us how pathetic we are, but in the DND world we already know that, and over come it. People have seen powerful monsters and Gods. Things that can accidentally sneeze and wipe them out of existence, and they have also seen morals over come it and beat it. Cthuhlu doesn't hold that kind of power any more, cause there are things just as big out there, constantly.

[ben-zayb]

No disrespect to Red Fel, but the pov he presents is really just from that of a RL mortal who's really, really good with prose. This confrontation between the demilich and cthulu presented simply assumes what a mortal thinks what would happen were a hypothetical cthulu to exist in D&D (assuming this happens in a d&d setting), and is prone to the no limits fallacy caused by the limits of our very real mortal limits. Do you think an equally smart human expert within D&D would just be as good as distinguishing the difference between two people that casually ignores reality?

Likewise, a level 30 demilich is as good as punpun if it wanted to, and that's effectively a RAW No Limits. Even against gravity. Even against Cthulu. No, even then.

[Hecuba]

Likewise, a level 30 demilich is as good as punpun if it wanted to, and that's effectively a RAW No Limits. Even against gravity. Even against Cthulu. No, even then.

What limits to does Cthulu have, other than the fact that it currently happens to be nap time?

[LTwerewolf]

Not so much, since demiliches are immune to mind affecting effects.

Against the proper Cthulhu it's not mind affecting, it's what its own mind is doing to itself.

[ben-zayb]

What limits to does Cthulu have, other than the fact that it currently happens to be nap time?

That there are still bigger fishes than it, so there is still a pecking order whether cthulu is aware of it or not. Yep, order. Something that is beyond the ken of, what, level 3 human experts? Level 10?

That's just the thing. Even in fiction, there are still tiers even amongst reality warpers/ignorers/benders, even amongst those who supposedly ignore convenient human logic. Just check the various <cosmic horror> vs <cosmic entity> threads all over the web.

[Belzyk]

What limits to does Cthulu have, other than the fact that it currently happens to be nap time?

And what limits does pun-pun have?

[LTwerewolf]

And what limits does pun-pun have?

He still has to obey the laws of reality.

[Belzyk]

He still has to obey the laws of reality.

No he doesn't. Punpun in essence becomes the dm man. So the rules are what he wants them to be

[LTwerewolf]

No he doesn't. Punpun in essence becomes the dm man. So the rules are what he wants them to be

No, pun pun just has arbitrarily high ability scores. That's it.

[Belzyk]

No, pun pun just has arbitrarily high ability scores. That's it.

Umm no Punpun has infinite divine ranks which if you look into deities and Demi gods makes him as strong as the dm. The highest power in the game is the dm. Punpun has access to that level of power also. Because Punpun has access to infinite power.

[ben-zayb]

No, pun pun just has arbitrarily high ability scores. That's it.

Nope: LTwerewolf got that wrong. Oh, and Cthulhu loses. Yes, even then.

That's an ability available to a demilich who ascends to punpunhood, just because.

Of course I'm still hoping this thread remain demilich vs cthulhu, instead of no limits version of demilich vs no limits probably-not-RAW version of cthulhu. And AFAIK, the limited version of cthulhu is statted by RAW.

[Belzyk]

Nope: LTwerewolf got that wrong. Oh, and Cthulhu loses. Yes, even then.

That's an ability available to a demilich who ascends to punpunhood, just because.

Of course I'm still hoping this thread remain demilich vs cthulhu, instead of no limits version of demilich vs no limits probably-not-RAW version of cthulhu. And AFAIK, the limited version of cthulhu is statted by RAW.

Yeah me to I don't wanna pun-pun this. Id like go keep it demi-lich vs cthuhlu also. Because Punpun trumps all in dnd

[Flickerdart]

I see two reasons why a demilich could withstand Chtulhu.

Equal measures of Pride and Folly
You and me - level 1 commoners - see Cthulhu, and see a being that renders us irrelevant. But a 30th level demi-lich is not us - he has climbed from being a level 1 guy towards something that is not just quantitatively better, but a new kind of thing altogether. He beholds a Great Old One, and what goes through his mind isn't "well what's the point then" but "time to git gud." After you've achieved one radical transformation, another one seems much more possible.

The limits of Undeath
Why are undead immune to mind-affecting effects? It's not because they don't feel fear - you can certainly intimidate a vampire into compliance. Undead are tortured souls hastily nailed to the Material Plane. A demilich might be wiser, smarter, more charismatic than your average mortal, but it is diminished in an important, spiritual way. Its very existence is artificial. When it comes in contact with a frame-breaking experience like Cthulhu, its bootleg soul may very well simply reject it as a valid input. Great Old Ones? Does not compute, all I see is Squidface McGee over there.

That's not to say the lich is right, or that not having his mind turned to mush suddenly lets him fight Cthulhu on even terms. But because an ancient magic skull perceives the world in a much different way than a person, he may very well retain what passes for sanity among the post-living.

[SethoMarkus]

Here's the deal. Cthulhu is a being that was created for and exists within a specific type of mythos. If you remove it from that mythos, things begin to change and you can claim that it is no longer the original being.

Within the original mythos, Cthuhlu is a being of immense cosmic power and proportions; a being beyond mortal comprehension or understanding, and existing in a space and time only overlapping with our own. It is horrible, it is dreadful, it is immortal, it is unstoppable, and it isn't even a "full" Elder God. This is the essence of Cthulhu.

Now, you can take a great tentacled creature of immense size and power, slap it into another setting, call it Cthuhlu and debate ways to beat it. And that is fine. But that is not Cthuhlu in essence, just in name. If it isn't a horror setting or one with beings that cannot be defeated, Cthuhlu cannot truly exist. That isn't saying you can't have fun with it. That isn't saying you a wrong. But just like it isn't really Q from the Q Continuum if you take away their dimension altering abilities, or Ichigo from Bleach if you take away all of the Soul Reaper abilities (from the setting), this would be a hollow shell of the source.

[Belzyk]

Here's the deal. Cthulhu is a being that was created for and exists within a specific type of mythos. If you remove it from that mythos, things begin to change and you can claim that it is no longer the original being.

Within the original mythos, Cthuhlu is a being of immense cosmic power and proportions; a being beyond mortal comprehension or understanding, and existing in a space and time only overlapping with our own. It is horrible, it is dreadful, it is immortal, it is unstoppable, and it isn't even a "full" Elder God. This is the essence of Cthulhu.

Now, you can take a great tentacled creature of immense size and power, slap it into another setting, call it Cthuhlu and debate ways to beat it. And that is fine. But that is not Cthuhlu in essence, just in name. If it isn't a horror setting or one with beings that cannot be defeated, Cthuhlu cannot truly exist. That isn't saying you can't have fun with it. That isn't saying you a wrong. But just like it isn't really Q from the Q Continuum if you take away their dimension altering abilities, or Ichigo from Bleach if you take away all of the Soul Reaper abilities (from the setting), this would be a hollow shell of the source.

I never said anything about beating him. I'm just wondering if a 30th level Demi lich could terrorize him and still survive

[illyahr]

So, from what we know of Cthuhlu, the question is this: Can we cause Cthuhlu enough discomfort to notice the demi-lich without causing so much that Cthuhlu simply wipes him from existence?

[Belzyk]

So, from what we know of Cthuhlu, the question is this: Can we cause Cthuhlu enough discomfort to notice the demi-lich without causing so much that Cthuhlu simply wipes him from existence?

Cthulu can't do that only Azathoth can do that.

[Flickerdart]

So, from what we know of Cthuhlu, the question is this: Can we cause Cthuhlu enough discomfort to notice the demi-lich without causing so much that Cthuhlu simply wipes him from existence?
Do you just want to be noticed? Walk up to Cthulhu and say hello. He has eyes, probably.

Do you want to be acknowledged? That's harder.

[SethoMarkus]

I never said anything about beating him. I'm just wondering if a 30th level Demi lich could terrorize him and still survive

Nor did I.

If you can terrorize Cthulhu, then it is not the Cthulhu from the mythos.

[Esprit15]

I never said anything about beating him. I'm just wondering if a 30th level Demi lich could terrorize him and still survive

The thing is, people have said no, for decent reasons, and then other people basically responded with "Nuh-uh!" The first group responds with "Uh-huh!" and the cycle continues.

[Belzyk]

The thing is, people have said no, for decent reasons, and then other people basically responded with "Nuh-uh!" The first group responds with "Uh-huh!" and the cycle continues.

I see that. I'm just glad I have two sides yo now work with. I believe I'm going to turn the far realm into an elder evil type guy and have my party fend it off and look for a way to stop the madness it's causing. Kinda like cthulu

[OldTrees1]

The madness Cthuhlu(as from the mythos) inspires is a bit interesting. From my understanding it hits 2 points of vulnerability:
1) You are literally worthless and your existence literally meaningless.
So what? This impacts many people, but it is not a universally crippling observation.

2) The laws of physics as you knew them? Either coincidences or just a negligible fraction of the actual laws of physics.
Are the true laws learnable? But humanity has examples of people that can accept striving for an impossible end.

So to survive the insanity you merely need to have a psyche that can play along with meaninglessness and futility. I have not met the human yet but I have met examples that would survive one or the other. So unless they are mutually exclusive we could see a human(or a Demi Lich) that could be unharmed by the realization.


But then we get into the question of "terrorize". Can Cthuhlu even feel annoyance not to speak of terror? From my understanding Cthuhlu is a priest of ??? and is sleeping to pass the time until its next duty. I do not recall any evidence that these beings can feel annoyance or fear. My best guess would be threatening to have it oversleep. Perhaps someone understanding its awaited duty might have a better guess at a threat(would deleting the earth foil the duty?).


So it remains a big NO.

[ben-zayb]

The thing is, people have said no, for decent reasons, and then other people basically responded with "Nuh-uh!" The first group responds with "Uh-huh!" and the cycle continues.

You got it backwards. The very first post to adequately provide a logical answer is in post #3, and from then it you get hype-based logic.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You and me - level 1 commoners - see Cthulhu, and see a being that renders us irrelevant.I don't know about you, but I'm not a starving, uneducated serf.

[Flickerdart]

I don't know about you, but I'm not a starving, uneducated serf.
In pseudo-fantasy D&D land, a level 1 commoner is a peasant with a hovel. In modern times, a level 1 commoner is a salaryman with a semi-detached house in the 'burbs. When discussing epic undead wizards leading an assault on otherworldly horrors, there's no difference between the two.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In pseudo-fantasy D&D land, a level 1 commoner is a peasant with a hovel. In modern times, a level 1 commoner is a salaryman with a semi-detached house in the 'burbs. When discussing epic undead wizards leading an assault on otherworldly horrors, there's no difference between the two.If you're talking about the NPC class, no, we're not commoners. Experts, sure, but not commoners.

[Flickerdart]

If you're talking about the NPC class, no, we're not commoners. Experts, sure, but not commoners.
Again - it doesn't matter.

[Efrate]

The crux of the matter is Cthulhu isn't comprehensible by mortal minds. You have to ask yourself is a demi-lich actually mortal? They can be killed (kind of), but they have no other limitations of mortals. I would say they are not. Throw a divine rank at a demi-lich? Blows up that part, phylactery piece brings it back, and you have just diminished a god. Do it enough, and you eliminate a god, a nearly unparalleled power that is beyond comprehension, just by refusing to accept its power. A stretch I know, but doable.

Also, as Cthulhu warps our mind by having us contemplate our mortality and insignificance, our own powerlessness and reality at its most fundamental level being untrue or not understood, demiliches have already transcended that. You fear not death nor age, you can craft magic that lasts for eternity and more, you have given the finger to all that reality and made it your ***** for a long while now, and you understand how to make it not apply if you don't wish to. Gravity? Things fall? You always fly. You can make other things always fly. Don't like it? Wish for it to NOT work or to work differently in whatever location. Turn your demiplanes' gravity into subjective directional gravity, or do that for prime material. You have infinite time you could. Suddenly this thought it was known fact is now a whim you alter. You can do that with anything.

You'd look on Cthulhu in either form, and be unaffected. You know better. So there is this big cosmic force that makes mortals fear everything and doubt their lives, perception, reality, sanity? And then there is this other guy like you, named Cthulhu. He might be bigger or on a possibly grander scale, but you've killed Colossal+ stuff before. You may have destoryed entire planes on a whim. How is he stronger or better or different? You are very similar. You might even get along. And once he sees that his incomoprehensibleness is comprehended by you, does he then fear? Are the ants not a rival in power? Is his existence all a lie? Could he not go mad himself confronted with another version similar to himself?

Also, just to muddle the existence a bit more,a lich of any stripe by most people is insane and beyond all reason. They no longer are alive and have divorced themselves from this reality in a sense. If that is what Cthulhu does, and yet you survive and thrive, who has actually won already? Maybe when you meet he accepts you as brethren because you have successfully escaped? All the things he does, you have more or less done to yourselves, so now what? What power does he hold? You survive gods, travel to realms where the rules don't apply,or even make them yourselves, then break them.

Heck you use magic which is already beyond reality, is that not something to consider when you face such a thing?

Rambling aside, I haven't seen PF demilich nor Cthulhu, but going by 3.5 its very easily doable. With a high enough intimiidate check, and maybe some dread witch shenanigans, you can not only cow him but make him a fanatical follower of you. He's already a priest and acknowledges higher powers, just convince him your a higher power. Enjoy fighting eldar god, old ones, and the like, you got squid face backing you up dealing with riffraff while you do the hard work. You're a demilich, only take care of the things that actually matter.

[Flickerdart]

And once he sees that his incomoprehensibleness is comprehended by you, does he then fear? Are the ants not a rival in power? Is his existence all a lie? Could he not go mad himself confronted with another version similar to himself?
Cthulhu is just a Great Old One, of which there are many. Become an equal to an Outer God, or Azathoth, and then Cthulhu will be scared.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Cthulhu is just a Great Old One, of which there are many. Become an equal to an Outer God, or Azathoth, and then Cthulhu will be scared.Become Pun-Pun, and he will fear.

[SethoMarkus]

See, this is why I made my whole Cthulhu vs Cthulhu post. It may just be my opinion here, but I feel it captures the essence of Lovecraft's intent, but no matter how big you make something, Cthulhu and the Elder Gods are bigger and badder. Much like villains faced by Goku or Superman, in the end they are the more powerful being, as Cthulhu is here. (Note: I know that Goku and Superman are not always the biggest fish, but they survive and they win. The point is that they have plot armor.)

You can stat up a creature and call it Cthulhu and that is fine. The real Cthulhu isn't so much a being as it is an idea; a physical representation of the insurmountable. It may be delayed, even to the point of becoming irrelevant to your generation and the next three, but it cannot be stopped or destroyed.

Cthulhu isn't the fear of death and madness, it is death and madness. You don't go mad from insignificance in the scheme of mortality and personal power, but from the nihilism that it all is pointless. All of it. No matter what you do, no matter how powerful you become or how many worlds you destroy, it's just a drop in the bucket. As personal ability increases, so too does the scope and challenge of Cthulhu and those ones he serves.


Now, that all said, I am by no means faulting anyone statting old tentacled. Go ahead and kill it if that is the game you want to play. I just think that you would be missing the point of Cthulhu by doing so. Cthulhu doesn't typically have a place in most conventional D&D or fantasy adventure games because they are about overcoming challenges; it belongs in a Horror game, about subcoming to challenges or surviving for as long as possible. By all means do ehat you enjoy, though. They are all games about having fun, and sometimes fun is kicking an Elder God in its squid face and laughing.

[Belzyk]

See, this is why I made my whole Cthulhu vs Cthulhu post. It may just be my opinion here, but I feel it captures the essence of Lovecraft's intent, but no matter how big you make something, Cthulhu and the Elder Gods are bigger and badder. Much like villains faced by Goku or Superman, in the end they are the more powerful being, as Cthulhu is here. (Note: I know that Goku and Superman are not always the biggest fish, but they survive and they win. The point is that they have plot armor.)

You can stat up a creature and call it Cthulhu and that is fine. The real Cthulhu isn't so much a being as it is an idea; a physical representation of the insurmountable. It may be delayed, even to the point of becoming irrelevant to your generation and the next three, but it cannot be stopped or destroyed.

Cthulhu isn't the fear of death and madness, it is death and madness. You don't go mad from insignificance in the scheme of mortality and personal power, but from the nihilism that it all is pointless. All of it. No matter what you do, no matter how powerful you become or how many worlds you destroy, it's just a drop in the bucket. As personal ability increases, so too does the scope and challenge of Cthulhu and those ones he serves.


Now, that all said, I am by no means faulting anyone statting old tentacled. Go ahead and kill it if that is the game you want to play. I just think that you would be missing the point of Cthulhu by doing so. Cthulhu doesn't typically have a place in most conventional D&D or fantasy adventure games because they are about overcoming challenges; it belongs in a Horror game, about subcoming to challenges or surviving for as long as possible. By all means do ehat you enjoy, though. They are all games about having fun, and sometimes fun is kicking an Elder God in its squid face and laughing.

See I am now going to use all this to turn the far realm into a single being of cthuluian perpotions. Its going to be shattering into my multiverse. Like litteraly shattering, I'm gonna have cracks in the sky and world then tentacles and eyes and crazy stuff will spew out. And my party is gonna have to fend off the attacks. And try to figure out why it's happening. Kinda like an elder evil type thingy

[ben-zayb]

See, this is why I made my whole Cthulhu vs Cthulhu post. It may just be my opinion here, but I feel it captures the essence of Lovecraft's intent, but no matter how big you make something, Cthulhu and the Elder Gods are bigger and badder. Much like villains faced by Goku or Superman, in the end they are the more powerful being, as Cthulhu is here. (Note: I know that Goku and Superman are not always the biggest fish, but they survive and they win. The point is that they have plot armor.)

You can stat up a creature and call it Cthulhu and that is fine. The real Cthulhu isn't so much a being as it is an idea; a physical representation of the insurmountable. It may be delayed, even to the point of becoming irrelevant to your generation and the next three, but it cannot be stopped or destroyed.

Cthulhu isn't the fear of death and madness, it is death and madness. You don't go mad from insignificance in the scheme of mortality and personal power, but from the nihilism that it all is pointless. All of it. No matter what you do, no matter how powerful you become or how many worlds you destroy, it's just a drop in the bucket. As personal ability increases, so too does the scope and challenge of Cthulhu and those ones he serves.


Now, that all said, I am by no means faulting anyone statting old tentacled. Go ahead and kill it if that is the game you want to play. I just think that you would be missing the point of Cthulhu by doing so. Cthulhu doesn't typically have a place in most conventional D&D or fantasy adventure games because they are about overcoming challenges; it belongs in a Horror game, about subcoming to challenges or surviving for as long as possible. By all means do ehat you enjoy, though. They are all games about having fun, and sometimes fun is kicking an Elder God in its squid face and laughing.

And you missed the point of my earlier post. There are always bigger fishes than Cthulu, especially considering we already know about other Old Ones being leagues higher than Cthulhu. So, yes, Cthulhu is not insurmountable in any sense of the word. A sufficiently higher being can tell it to go and play his little games elsewhere. It also so happens that a sufficiently high being can exist in D&D, and it can easily be the demilich in this thread.

[SethoMarkus]

And you missed the point of my earlier post. There are always bigger fishes than Cthulu, especially considering we already know about other Old Ones being leagues higher than Cthulhu. So, yes, Cthulhu is not insurmountable in any sense of the word. A sufficiently higher being can tell it to go and play his little games elsewhere. It also so happens that a sufficiently high being can exist in D&D, and it can easily be the demilich in this thread.

Let me rephrase that a little. Cthulhu is a 1 on a 1-10 scale. It serves a higher power, a 10 relative to itself. Any "mortal" (non native-deity), no matter their power, is at most a 0.01 out of 10 compared to Cthulhu.

Yes, Cthulhu is not the most powerful. That is part of what makes it so scary and intimidating. You will never overcome Cthulhu no matter your power, and it is just the messenger.

[Efrate]

Demiliches are so much more though. They can and do challenge the powers that be which would make ordinary or even extraordinary people quake infear. Them and Cthulhu are to average joe q. citizen more or less the same. Powers beyond comprehension, reprehensible, capable of destroying them, the world, maybe even all existence an infinite number of ways with but a thought, and said citizen is utterly unnoticeable to them, less than an ant. I'd say the demilich being a more immediate presence would be a bigger threat and they would fear it more. A demilich is orders of magnitude beyond comprehension more powerful than an average mortal, even a very well trained and prepared one.

I'd say a mid to high optimized demilich is at least equal to Cthulhu. Its already equal to or more powerful than Gods.

As for the campaign, sky breaking an tentacles coming out sounds awesome, I dunno if PF has an Avatar system but look at it in 3.5 and convert ol' squiddy to a couple of different levels of avatars that you can face. Maybe you just manage to break a tentacle and seal the sky in a few places, but you know there is more, and once he notices he can rip it open again. Have pseudonatural creatures start showing up and all of that and you can evoke the feelings of this massive unwinning race to just hold him off, then when yer ready go kick him in the junk and smear the planes with his gooey syrupy innards. Whatever ramifications that has is up to you.

[Belzyk]

Demiliches are so much more though. They can and do challenge the powers that be which would make ordinary or even extraordinary people quake infear. Them and Cthulhu are to average joe q. citizen more or less the same. Powers beyond comprehension, reprehensible, capable of destroying them, the world, maybe even all existence an infinite number of ways with but a thought, and said citizen is utterly unnoticeable to them, less than an ant. I'd say the demilich being a more immediate presence would be a bigger threat and they would fear it more. A demilich is orders of magnitude beyond comprehension more powerful than an average mortal, even a very well trained and prepared one.

I'd say a mid to high optimized demilich is at least equal to Cthulhu. Its already equal to or more powerful than Gods.

As for the campaign, sky breaking an tentacles coming out sounds awesome, I dunno if PF has an Avatar system but look at it in 3.5 and convert ol' squiddy to a couple of different levels of avatars that you can face. Maybe you just manage to break a tentacle and seal the sky in a few places, but you know there is more, and once he notices he can rip it open again. Have pseudonatural creatures start showing up and all of that and you can evoke the feelings of this massive unwinning race to just hold him off, then when yer ready go kick him in the junk and smear the planes with his gooey syrupy innards. Whatever ramifications that has is up to you.

My players are gonna hate me lmao. Yessss this is going to be amazing

[ben-zayb]

Let me rephrase that a little. Cthulhu is a 1 on a 1-10 scale. It serves a higher power, a 10 relative to itself. Any "mortal" (non native-deity), no matter their power, is at most a 0.01 out of 10 compared to Cthulhu.

Yes, Cthulhu is not the most powerful. That is part of what makes it so scary and intimidating. You will never overcome Cthulhu no matter your power, and it is just the messenger.

Yes, "mortal" from the definition/perspective of low-level human experts. And, divinity, you say? Attainable in D&D. Or are you imposing some artificial definition of mortal to suit the argument?

[Hecuba]

I'd say a mid to high optimized demilich is at least equal to Cthulhu. Its already equal to or more powerful than Gods.

It's tangential to the issue at hand, but unless PF made a significant nerf to 3.5 divine rank of which I am unaware (or you are limiting the scope to only lesser deities) you are likely underestimating what a deity can do.

Just ignore the silly class levels & HD for the most part: portfolio sense and SDAs can cover a lot for any significant portfolio. That is where the work gets done.

If Pun-Pun' ascension is in scope for a single greater deity, he's not going to ascend without the aid of another one of higher rank. And portfolio sense is so broad that it will be in scope if there is nontrivial number of them present in the setting.

Heck, in a pinch an intermediate deity might well do.

[gooddragon1]

I don't know about a demi lich, but there's probably at least a handful of The Town/The Nexus characters who could go up against Cthuhlu.

[Efrate]

Having killed gods in 3.0 rather easily around level I think 35? I know their scope fairly well. They are still bound by the action economy, and you break that then you break them. Many are not immune to Time Stop. Some are. Some do it at will. Maybe you just want to go kill Vecna or Nerull cause he is a nasty SoB. His sense and SDA don't stop you from doing so, you get to their citadel get through the minions, fight him, and he dies. Divinity usurped. They might know when you planeshift/teleport/whatever, I no longer have my Deities and Demigods sadly, to their citadels or their plane, but that doesn't mean they have a lot of options stopping you.

They are statted from what I remember pretty sloppily being fairly poor amalgamations of classes, and are around CR 40 I think just on levels, but CR is a lot less meaningful in epic levels. Supreme initiative is the biggest worry because then they can break action economy before you can, otherwise just go for it. Colossi also help. Send a few to wade through the minions, especially with how golems and such magic immunity worked in 3.0 where was it actual immunity to stuff and not just unbeatable SR so you can use any conjuration spell and easily kill the mage killers.

I am not sure if there were official updates in 3.5 but as far as 3.0 most were not too bad. The norse and greek and egyptian gods were a LOT better, but most of the basic DnD ones were fairly sloppily done.

[5ColouredWalker]

*Skims through*

The thing that people seems to be forgetting, is that Cuthulu is not the greatest being in his food web, and his food web fits perfectly in the DnD Great Wheel Multiverse, he slots in the Far Realms. Within the far realms, he's a titanic multi-dimensional entity that is also a god, who exists in a world which when we try to fit within our logic, has only the slightest tangent of laws within which it follows, and that is 'A CN Abbyss, with an extra heaping of C'.

A Demilich however is, per standard, a motal that is half way to godhood. He has mastered the wizarding arts to the state where the logic of nature is simply source code he plays with. When your level 3 expert (What I put people to be in this day and age) tries to describe the demilich, the expert describes the Demilich as a mortal almost completely unbound of body and who has long since stopped caring about natural law and it's puny cries about rules such as death, who's master the logics of the worlds source code and makes them dance for his amusement, before travelling words with similar source codes, learning them, and then playing with them to stave off the seemingly inevitable approach of boredom. His only true limits are those of the divinely morphic realms inhabited by their ruling god who stares at the intruder, and destroys it the moment it becomes annoying.


Both of these are functionally gods to us, however they're from functionally different realities, and one's a much higher tier god (Since it's actually a god, and the Demilich is just an epic wizard.). Who wins? Their worlds are too different, if Cuthulu visits he's going to sit confused for a while trying to figure out what the jumbled mess of our world means, his wild flailing destroying vast swaths around him, before the confused beast is put out of it's misery by a being who puts down demigods with practiced ease, and Cuthulu happily wakes up at home wondering what the hell he drank last night that his dream was that f**ked, before realizing it has the bruises of actually dying and wonders what the hell happened last night, before realising it accidentally went to what it considers it's far realms and decides to either investigate further or to stop poking it.
The Demilich visits? The Demilich is suddenly in a world with vastly different source code which laughs at his attempts to tell it what to do, his very eyes rebel as his mind in vain struggles to process the scene before him, and Cuthulu for some reason notices him and decides he want's the lich gone. Being an actual, physical god in his home plane(s)? Cuthulu thinks a little hard and the Demilich never was, never is, and never again shall be.

[Efrate]

Except the demi lich is travelling astrally so killing the astral body is nothing but a setback. If hes smart he uses the spell to split his phylactery and hide various ones in various secret demiplanes. Throw divine ranks or such at him and he just bounces back in a bit.

As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. 3.5 MM1 pg 168. Bolded is mine.

Specific over general. Don't destroy the phylactery, everything you do to the lich up to and including remaking reality has no effect. Only is about as specific as it gets.

Also pretty sure a good epic level knowledge the planes or arcana or whatever if you are treating the far plane as a plane would reveal all the traits it needs to know to function well.

[Belzyk]

*Skims through*

The thing that people seems to be forgetting, is that Cuthulu is not the greatest being in his food web, and his food web fits perfectly in the DnD Great Wheel Multiverse, he slots in the Far Realms. Within the far realms, he's a titanic multi-dimensional entity that is also a god, who exists in a world which when we try to fit within our logic, has only the slightest tangent of laws within which it follows, and that is 'A CN Abbyss, with an extra heaping of C'.

A Demilich however is, per standard, a motal that is half way to godhood. He has mastered the wizarding arts to the state where the logic of nature is simply source code he plays with. When your level 3 expert (What I put people to be in this day and age) tries to describe the demilich, the expert describes the Demilich as a mortal almost completely unbound of body and who has long since stopped caring about natural law and it's puny cries about rules such as death, who's master the logics of the worlds source code and makes them dance for his amusement, before travelling words with similar source codes, learning them, and then playing with them to stave off the seemingly inevitable approach of boredom. His only true limits are those of the divinely morphic realms inhabited by their ruling god who stares at the intruder, and destroys it the moment it becomes annoying.


Both of these are functionally gods to us, however they're from functionally different realities, and one's a much higher tier god (Since it's actually a god, and the Demilich is just an epic wizard.). Who wins? Their worlds are too different, if Cuthulu visits he's going to sit confused for a while trying to figure out what the jumbled mess of our world means, his wild flailing destroying vast swaths around him, before the confused beast is put out of it's misery by a being who puts down demigods with practiced ease, and Cuthulu happily wakes up at home wondering what the hell he drank last night that his dream was that f**ked, before realizing it has the bruises of actually dying and wonders what the hell happened last night, before realising it accidentally went to what it considers it's far realms and decides to either investigate further or to stop poking it.
The Demilich visits? The Demilich is suddenly in a world with vastly different source code which laughs at his attempts to tell it what to do, his very eyes rebel as his mind in vain struggles to process the scene before him, and Cuthulu for some reason notices him and decides he want's the lich gone. Being an actual, physical god in his home plane(s)? Cuthulu thinks a little hard and the Demilich never was, never is, and never again shall be.

Thats going a little extreme because chances are in this situation. The demi-lich would have attained actual godhood. And cthulu could prolly banish him back to his own realm but not kill. In DnD there are mortals. Litteraly Mortals who can die and all that. That have lived uncounted years in the far realm and learned to use it. (Manual of the planes). Also I understand cthulu is unkillable.(well unless he fudged up and ends up in the city of sigil. Then I'm sure he's gonna die.) I'm really happy to see so many different views on this subject. Its really helping me build my elder evil xD the far realm!

[GreyBlack]

C'thulu has been statted in Pathfinder:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu

Comparatively, this is a demilich.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/demilich

This is an awakened demilich:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/demilich/demilich-awakened

Now, when you say level 30, do you mean ECL 30 or Wizard 30 + demilich? Because both have significantly different outcomes. An ECL 30 demilich will actually take no actions unless disturbed (Torpor). So, unless C'thulu is actively devouring your stuff, you're not gonna do much. Additionally, assuming I read this correctly, you have to be a lich before you can be a demilich; lichdom applies an ECL +4 penalty to you, so you'll be casting as a Wizard 26.

.... Which, assuming 3.5 epic level spellcasting is enough. By that point, you should have already researched a universe-destruction spell, so you just cast it and remake it in your own image. However, since I'm going by PF, Epic Spellcasting doesn't exist, so we can't go by that.

So, in terms of raw spellcasting power, you're going to be limited to the Level 9 spells. Quickened Level 9 spells, mind, based on how PF Epic progression could technically work going by core rulebook (i.e. gaining a spell level every 2 levels), but level 9s nonetheless. Which are still monstrously powerful, but can you single-handedly overcome a CR 30 with Non-Euclidean, Immortality, Freedom of Movement, SR 41, and immunity to a vast number of ways to damage it (including, but not limited, to ability damage, ability drain, and mind-affecting effects)? TBQH, there's not really a whole hell of a lot you can do, but using severe cheese (e.g. Solar Gate, Shapechange shennanigans, etc.), you can certainly do it. Depends on how good your imagination is and your ability at non-euclidean thinking is.

[Belzyk]

C'thulu has been statted in Pathfinder:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/great-old-ones/great-old-one-cthulhu

Comparatively, this is a demilich.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/demilich

This is an awakened demilich:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/demilich/demilich-awakened

Now, when you say level 30, do you mean ECL 30 or Wizard 30 + demilich? Because both have significantly different outcomes. An ECL 30 demilich will actually take no actions unless disturbed (Torpor). So, unless C'thulu is actively devouring your stuff, you're not gonna do much. Additionally, assuming I read this correctly, you have to be a lich before you can be a demilich; lichdom applies an ECL +4 penalty to you, so you'll be casting as a Wizard 26.

.... Which, assuming 3.5 epic level spellcasting is enough. By that point, you should have already researched a universe-destruction spell, so you just cast it and remake it in your own image. However, since I'm going by PF, Epic Spellcasting doesn't exist, so we can't go by that.

So, in terms of raw spellcasting power, you're going to be limited to the Level 9 spells. Quickened Level 9 spells, mind, based on how PF Epic progression could technically work going by core rulebook (i.e. gaining a spell level every 2 levels), but level 9s nonetheless. Which are still monstrously powerful, but can you single-handedly overcome a CR 30 with Non-Euclidean, Immortality, Freedom of Movement, SR 41, and immunity to a vast number of ways to damage it (including, but not limited, to ability damage, ability drain, and mind-affecting effects)? TBQH, there's not really a whole hell of a lot you can do, but using severe cheese (e.g. Solar Gate, Shapechange shennanigans, etc.), you can certainly do it. Depends on how good your imagination is and your ability at non-euclidean thinking is.

3.5 not pathfinder. And I'm fairly certain in 3.5 I don't have to awaken myself as a Demi lich and 3o caster levels plus Demi lich

[Âmesang]

Also I understand cthulu is unkillable.(well unless he fudged up and ends up in the city of sigil.
Didn't Vecna once sneak into Sigil and break reality? :smalltongue:

[Xuldarinar]

I never before really looked at Pathfinder's Demi-lich. And now that I have I have to ask..

Why should a skull be particularly susceptible to vorpal weapons? Can you behead a bodiless head?

[Red Fel]

I never before really looked at Pathfinder's Demi-lich. And now that I have I have to ask..

Why should a skull be particularly susceptible to vorpal weapons? Can you behead a bodiless head?

Oh, but don't you see? A vorpal weapon is designed to remove the head. Against most creatures, that means removing the head from the body. But a Demilich has no body; therefore, it isn't being removed from a body. It's simply being removed.

Completely.

From existence.

Because that makes sense.

[Belzyk]

Didn't Vecna once sneak into Sigil and break reality? :smalltongue:

Thats a cover story by the lady of pain. To give deities hope

[Belzyk]

Oh, but don't you see? A vorpal weapon is designed to remove the head. Against most creatures, that means removing the head from the body. But a Demilich has no body; therefore, it isn't being removed from a body. It's simply being removed.

Completely.

From existence.

Because that makes sense.

To bad he's undead and undead are immune to critical hits and volperal needs to be a critical hit. All a pathfinder voporal weapon does is bypass his damage reduction. Not beheading him.

[Xuldarinar]

To bad he's undead and undead are immune to critical hits and volperal needs to be a critical hit. All a pathfinder voporal weapon does is bypass his damage reduction. Not beheading him.

It would work, however, in a 3.P game. If memory serves, Kas grants binders the ability to critical against undead. So, a Binder with a vorpal sword could cut the head off of a floating head.

[RegalKain]

See, discussions like this, are the reason I so very much dis-like when random game designers go "Hey let's stat this thing up!" because as GITP has proven time and time and time again if it has stats they can kill it. My players once asked me to stat up more or less the "father" of deities in my session and I simply told them they couldn't kill him, they insisted so I said fine. "Imagine PunPun, now he also has a few extra abilities." This is why I consider the game kind of crappy no one ever assumes "Oh it's a deity, or an elder god, surely it has more intelligence than me, a human on earth, it's probably found these loop holes itself" nope, we just go by the run of the mill stats in the books. Cause that's what the designers wrote. My over-deity who others just refer to as "Father" or "All-Father" had these extra abilities, and honestly, I think beings of power that their original creators didn't intend to be one-punched should have them.

Divine Command: Nothing (Creature, Item, Player, or anything else that falls into the category of anything, except the original All-Father) can have Divine Ranks equal to or greater than the All-Father, furthermore any creature that has Divine Ranks is treated as a Fanatic follower of the All-Father, and obeys their commands absolutely. This is an Extraordinary ability that cannot be broken by any means, and cannot be saved against. Furthermore any creature that achieves Divine Ranks, is subject to instant permanent death a moment before achieving their first Divine Rank, if the All-Father chooses to end their existence because they came by their ranks falsely he may do so as a free action. The All-Father exists on all time lines, and all space, there is not a time before his arrival, and there is no time after his departure.

Merged With Existence: The All-Father cannot be the target of any spell, SLA, attack or anything else that must declare a target, furthermore he automatically saves on any save that may need a roll. (Will, Fort, Ref, etc) no matter how high the DC he simply passes it. Any form of spell that bypasses the above immunity to target him instantly fails, he is made aware of the loop hole in the laws of physics and this ability should change to reflect that, he can also instantly slay the would-be assailant the same way he can with Divine Command.

These are in addition to the normal things gods have, as well as everything PunPun can do, because no, the overdeity of all deities in a setting shouldn't be punched down by an uber charger, or winked out of existence by a cheeky Kobold. I've always run the stats in every book as "That's no the deity itself, that's simply one of their weaker Avatars" because I've always been so annoyed that the designers made them so weak. (Anyone ever looked at Kord? He's weak even by god standards.) Now the question arises with Cthulu I understand that even in his Mythos he's not "top-dog" but that's like going up to Bob the Farmer and mentioning the Far realms, sure the farmer doesn't know, because why would he? He's never needed to know, he has no idea what's out there. The beings Cthulu serves have no DC to hit with any Knowledge check, they are so far removed from our reality that even epic casting can't get you to them, they are simply beyond you. Cthulu itself should have the stats of "It's eternal, assume it's stronger than PunPun, yes even then." but I understand why that's NOT the case, something that cannot be beaten isn't fun in a game all about smacking things about. I just really think deities or elder gods of any kind should be plot points, not a bigger stick of EXP.

tl;dr : Treat all deities like the Lady of Pain.

[Flickerdart]

tl;dr : Treat all deities like the Lady of Pain.
Why? D&D-style fantasy is about swordmurdering progressively bigger and badder things. There's a reason entities like the Lady of Pain and Ao are few and far-between - the designers intended to make deities vulnerable to swordmurder in these settings. While you are free to make all your deities invincible in your settings, it goes against the spirit of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms.

[RegalKain]

Why? D&D-style fantasy is about swordmurdering progressively bigger and badder things. There's a reason entities like the Lady of Pain and Ao are few and far-between - the designers intended to make deities vulnerable to swordmurder in these settings. While you are free to make all your deities invincible in your settings, it goes against the spirit of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms.

And had the designers have even the SLIGHTEST idea of what their system was capable of, do you honestly think their stats would remain what they are? When things like PunPun and Epic Spellcasting is on the table, deities aren't even bigger and badder, it's "Oh geez I accidently removed Kord from existence again, tee-hee" that's just...silly?

[Flickerdart]

And had the designers have even the SLIGHTEST idea of what their system was capable of, do you honestly think their stats would remain what they are? When things like PunPun and Epic Spellcasting is on the table, deities aren't even bigger and badder, it's "Oh geez I accidently removed Kord from existence again, tee-hee" that's just...silly?
"If it has stats, it can be killed" has been a meme since long before 3.5 happened. Pun-pun isn't a serious thing at actually happens at real tables, and by the time you're swinging around Epic Spellcasting, you are bigger and badder and should be knocking down gods.

[DivineDenier]

Demiliches are so much more though. They can and do challenge the powers that be which would make ordinary or even extraordinary people quake infear. Them and Cthulhu are to average joe q. citizen more or less the same. Powers beyond comprehension, reprehensible, capable of destroying them, the world, maybe even all existence an infinite number of ways with but a thought, and said citizen is utterly unnoticeable to them, less than an ant. I'd say the demilich being a more immediate presence would be a bigger threat and they would fear it more. A demilich is orders of magnitude beyond comprehension more powerful than an average mortal, even a very well trained and prepared one.

I'd say a mid to high optimized demilich is at least equal to Cthulhu. Its already equal to or more powerful than Gods.

As for the campaign, sky breaking an tentacles coming out sounds awesome, I dunno if PF has an Avatar system but look at it in 3.5 and convert ol' squiddy to a couple of different levels of avatars that you can face. Maybe you just manage to break a tentacle and seal the sky in a few places, but you know there is more, and once he notices he can rip it open again. Have pseudonatural creatures start showing up and all of that and you can evoke the feelings of this massive unwinning race to just hold him off, then when yer ready go kick him in the junk and smear the planes with his gooey syrupy innards. Whatever ramifications that has is up to you.

let me preface this with, i love this answer, because im sure a demilich could find a way to bop cthulhu, permanently, maybe or maybe not. you'd have to find a way to kill azathoth or the outer beings, which, honestly we very little information about them so that not happening realistically, even in D&D. said demilich would need to ascend. become an outer being. become the new crawling madness or something.

[Belzyk]

let me preface this with, i love this answer, because im sure a demilich could find a way to bop cthulhu, permanently, maybe or maybe not. you'd have to find a way to kill azathoth or the outer beings, which, honestly we very little information about them so that not happening realistically, even in D&D. said demilich would need to ascend. become an outer being. become the new crawling madness or something.

Nope Azathoth would just wake up and everything would cease to be. Done

[Slithery D]

To bad he's undead and undead are immune to critical hits and volperal needs to be a critical hit. All a pathfinder voporal weapon does is bypass his damage reduction. Not beheading him.

And I like this. The alternative would have been DR/-. This way there's a rare but flavorful/amusing way to overcome it. Just like the Jabberwock has DR/vorpal because of literary history.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This is why I consider the game kind of crappy no one ever assumes "Oh it's a deity, or an elder god, surely it has more intelligence than me, a human on earth, it's probably found these loop holes itself" nope, we just go by the run of the mill stats in the books.
I do agree with this. If you are playing a game where optimized demiliches get to run around with immunity to damage, you should, as DM, optimize your deities to a similar degree. In this case, your DM should optimize Cthulhu to reflect the optimization level of your demilich. That may still put it within killing range (if it is of a much lower ECL than your own, or if it lacks Epic Spellcasting), but it probably shouldn't be easy, not so much from an in-world perspective, but from an 'interesting campaign design'-perspective. YMMV, naturally.

[Belzyk]

I do agree with this. If you are playing a game where optimized demiliches get to run around with immunity to damage, you should, as DM, optimize your deities to a similar degree. In this case, your DM should optimize Cthulhu to reflect the optimization level of your demilich. That may still put it within killing range (if it is of a much lower ECL than your own, or if it lacks Epic Spellcasting), but it probably shouldn't be easy, not so much from an in-world perspective, but from an 'interesting campaign design'-perspective. YMMV, naturally.

OK guys so I've turned the far realm into an elder evil type being. That's breaking the walls of reality and spilling into the multiverse. Besides moon cows and moon tentacle monsters. What other creatures could I use. (All psudonatural creatures are actually cells inside the far realm.)

[RegalKain]

I do agree with this. If you are playing a game where optimized demiliches get to run around with immunity to damage, you should, as DM, optimize your deities to a similar degree. In this case, your DM should optimize Cthulhu to reflect the optimization level of your demilich. That may still put it within killing range (if it is of a much lower ECL than your own, or if it lacks Epic Spellcasting), but it probably shouldn't be easy, not so much from an in-world perspective, but from an 'interesting campaign design'-perspective. YMMV, naturally.


more or less, exactly this. I may be biased though, because I don't enjoy campaigns where the players are special snowflakes and by level 10 they are the most powerful people in the known material plane. It just feels cheap and silly to me I guess, most of the DMs I game with and when I DM, the players start off as nobodies, they can rise to the occasion but the King, and his personal guard aren't afraid of a level 15 adventuring party, they've been there and done that themselves, who do you think founded the kingdoms? Adventurers, people who are ballsy enough to look at a great red wyrm and go "ehh, I can take that"

[Grim Portent]

Wasn't Cthulhu's 'race' supposed to have been beaten in a war by the Mi-Go in Lovecraft's stories to explain why he was sleeping in Ry'leth rather than still actively serving his gods? He's clearly not unbeatable in the original stories.

The general trend of Lovecraft's stories was to do with the fear of human insignificance and impermanence, basically everything that wasn't human was on a level similar to the Great Old Ones or their servants, be it the Mi-Go, the Old Ones or those time travelling space worm things.

Something as inhuman and alien as a Demilich should be more than capable of taking on the various monsters from the Mythos as they were originally depicted, including Cthulhu. Hell, in The Dunwich Horror a half human son of Yog-Sothoth was killed by a dog.

[Belzyk]

Wasn't Cthulhu's 'race' supposed to have been beaten in a war by the Mi-Go in Lovecraft's stories to explain why he was sleeping in Ry'leth rather than still actively serving his gods? He's clearly not unbeatable in the original stories.

The general trend of Lovecraft's stories was to do with the fear of human insignificance and impermanence, basically everything that wasn't human was on a level similar to the Great Old Ones or their servants, be it the Mi-Go, the Old Ones or those time travelling space worm things.

Something as inhuman and alien as a Demilich should be more than capable of taking on the various monsters from the Mythos as they were originally depicted, including Cthulhu. Hell, in The Dunwich Horror a half human son of Yog-Sothoth was killed by a dog.

This is true. Cthulu is immortal but he isn't unbeatable.

[Chambers]

My favorite ability that Cthulhu has: "Cthulhu eats 1d3 adventurers per round."

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My favorite ability that Cthulhu has: "Cthulhu eats 1d3 adventurers per round."...and is defeated soundly by Gilligan and The S.S. Minnow.

[Belzyk]

...and is defeated soundly by Gilligan and The S.S. Minnow.

LMAO OMG dude

[atemu1234]

Ok, so here' a summary of the debate thusfar:

Party 1: Okay, so can we kill Cthulhu
Party 2: Well, if we use the stats from Pathfinder, sure, it's not that difficult.
Party 1: Okay what if we don't use those stats?
Party 2: Well, the source material basically makes him more powerful than any potential mortal, that he basically ignores reality, and that if he fully awakens, it would take little effort on his part to wipe away all life on earth with as little effort as it takes to clean a stain on a white shirt with bleach, I'd say no.
Party 1: Okay but I'm really powerful.

The crux of this is, we need to use stats. Something other than

I Win (Ex): I win everything.

The problem is, Cthulhu in PF is a being entirely destructible. Cthulhu in the source material is on par with a abstract concept.

[Traab]

Nope Azathoth would just wake up and everything would cease to be. Done

Bah, im sure the demi lich has his own personal demi plane he kept nice and secured with spells on par with what killed cthulu. He could rebuild from there. :p

[OldTrees1]

Ok, so here' a summary of the debate thusfar:

The crux of this is, we need to use stats. Something other than

I Win (Ex): I win everything.

What about:

Insignificance (Ex): Anyone that observes you realizes they are worthless.
Incomprehensible (Ex): Any attempt to understand you fails.

Even together these are not a blank "I win" check but they are adequate stats for dealing with the entity lovecraft attempted to depict.

The reason the stat would need to be in this form is that Cthuhlu is not defined by numbers, even NI numbers. So any attempt to punch out a sack of NI numbers will do nothing to conclude the issue even in the rare circumstance that everyone agrees the sack of NI numbers is stronger than the qualitatively different challenge that is the lovecraft mythos.

[Eisfalken]

The fact we are actually debating if a demi-lich can "terrorize" an alien being of beyond-godlike power and ability that exists on the outskirts of reality that is the only thing said demi-lich has ever known is proof that people don't know what they are talking about when they talk about Lovecraftian horror anymore.

When the literally incomprehensible is reduced to a few dice rolls and arguments about abilities, someone has, somewhere along the line, failed to grasp the point.

[ben-zayb]

When the literally incomprehensible is reduced to a few dice rolls and arguments about abilities, someone has, somewhere along the line, failed to grasp the point.
And by literally incomprehensible, you mean from the perspective of commoners/experts, in a world/story without other creatures like demilich to give a point of comparison? Gotcha.

This is what happens if you put hype vs actual feats. No limits fallacy ahoy!

[Esprit15]

But given the fact that one of them can be reduced to a bundle of numbers and the other can't suggests that there are still orders of magnitude that separate the two.

[ben-zayb]

But given the fact that one of them can be reduced to a bundle of numbers and the other can't suggests that there are still orders of magnitude that separate the two.Uhm, what? Cthulhu has indeed already been reduced to a pile of numbers. Or shall we go in circles with "Actually Cthulhu already had been statted out", "But that's not Cthulhu, because Cthulhu can't be statted out", just because some people have trouble grasping the idea that perhaps the fish in the lovecraftian pond isn't as big as previously thought when put in a world where even a 1st level character is capable of breaking the laws of physics despite being non-magical.

As someone already mentioned in this thread, it's just a matter of scale. There indeed exist orders of magnitude between a demilich and cthulhu, just in the way that might rock certain people's worldview.

[Seto]

The problem is, Cthulhu in PF is a being entirely destructible. Cthulhu in the source material is on par with a abstract concept.

What about Cthulhu in its game? In Call of Cthulhu, or Trail of Ctulhu, or Munchkin Cthulhu? Is it modeled here? Does it have stats? (I've never played those games)

[Dexam]

As with all "C'thulhu vs" threads, my default answer is this:

I declare C'thulhu and the Demi-Lich to be my OTP; C'thulhu loses, because he has canonically been defeated by being shipped...

:smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

Uhm, what? Cthulhu has indeed already been reduced to a pile of numbers. Or shall we go in circles with "Actually Cthulhu already had been statted out", "But that's not Cthulhu, because Cthulhu can't be statted out", just because some people have trouble grasping the idea that perhaps the fish in the lovecraftian pond isn't as big as previously thought when put in a world where even a 1st level character is capable of breaking the laws of physics despite being non-magical.

As someone already mentioned in this thread, it's just a matter of scale. There indeed exist orders of magnitude between a demilich and cthulhu, just in the way that might rock certain people's worldview.

If you try to use those stats (the ones that do not accurately represent the mythos) then of course we will get caught in that infinite loop. You would not accept "a bat with a 3rd arm" as legit stats for Batman so why would we accept "godzilla with some tentacles" as legit stats for Cthulhu?

Official source vs official source is the only comparison you can make that has a chance of consensus.

So which shall we do? Circles or comparison?

[ben-zayb]

If you try to use those stats (the ones that do not accurately represent the mythos) then of course we will get caught in that infinite loop. You would not accept "a bat with a 3rd arm" as legit stats for Batman so why would we accept "godzilla with some tentacles" as legit stats for Cthulhu?

Official source vs official source is the only comparison you can make that has a chance of consensus.

So which shall we do? Circles or comparison?

Fair enough. How about we list down what Cthulhu have actually done to these humans and see the closest combination of mechanics in D&D that best capture those.

[OldTrees1]

Fair enough. How about we list down what Cthulhu have actually done to these humans and see the closest combination of mechanics in D&D that best capture those.

I am away from books myself (I heavily used the public library) but as I recall there are only 3 main effects and the 3rd one(something physical) should be discounted given the Demi Lich's obvious defenses.
1: Realization of Cthulhu's existence is the realization that you are meaningless and trivial. (Sans this you are no longer talking about Cthulhu in your world)
2: Humans have gone mad trying to understand the physics that these beings operate under.

On the Demi-Lich's side we have some useful benefits:
1: Demi-Lich's are near the top of the totem pole in their world(before the addition of the mythos) so a Demi-Lich could be considered equipped with the world's resources including human capital.
2: Our Demi-Lich only seeks to terrorize Cthulhu and walk away unscathed. This mission objective is not "remain sane" or "defeat Cthulhu". Instead it is the both easier and harder "Encounter Cthulhu, Terrorize Cthulhu, Survive to walk away, End up unscathed".

So going insane is not an instant lose for the Demi-lich provided they have a means of reversing the damage later(say by deleting the knowledge/memory and healing the insanity) and is able to accomplish their objective in the interim. So if I were the Demi-lich, I would need a plan that would continue even if I felt I was worthless/trivial that would end up terrorizing any creature that I might come across(since at this point I am sane and thus don't have intimate knowledge about my foe yet). Is this doable? I would expect yes, although the second part is above my Int/Wis level. The surviving part is covered by lichdom and I already mentioned the recovery method so parts 3 & 4 are doable even at my Int/Wis level.

[Max Caysey]

So say I'm a 30th level Demi lich with ya know problems..... as in enjoying terrorizing elder things..... could I theoretically terrorize Cthuhulu and ya know walk away unscathed. Assume my skull has been made out of that crazy force water material from stormwreck also my soul crystals to.

Is it a level 30 commoner?

A Demi lich is a weak undead that is easilly destroyed, albeit not permanently unless the phylactery is found.

[OldTrees1]

Is it a level 30 commoner?

A Demi lich is a weak undead that is easilly destroyed, albeit not permanently unless the phylactery is found.

I expect we are talking about the Lich that rose to having multiple phylacteries rather than the Lich that fell to a weakened state.

[ben-zayb]

On one hand, for Cthulhu
1. The problem I see is that it's basically just something of a confirmation: bottom level commoners/experts are definitely meaningless and trivial compared to PCs at high levels, and maybe even lower for non-mundanes. That's just how things are in D&D, barring extreme levels of cheese involving sacrifices and tortures, and even then the individuality of these mooks don't even matter. On the other hand, even if we assume that this effect, for some unexplained reason, affects everyone with zero exceptions (likely no, because Azathoth), a knowledgeable and experienced caster must have already realized a long time ago just how meaningless and trivial it had been compared to the top tiers in the D&D world (deities, elder evils, etc), so this won't probably be the first.
2. insanity effects (always derived AFAIK from the spell of the same name) are mind-affecting, so a simple immunity to it will suffice.

On the other hand, for the Demilich
2. The problem I see is that "terrorize" suggests inflicting fear of some sort, which in D&D have plenty of absolute negators, especially if we consider fear effects as always getting the mind-affecting tag. Thus, the goal may as well not work if Cthulhu has one of the many ways to achieve immunity, such as through magic items. A dread witch with searing, fell frighten no-save, no-SR, no-attack spell might work, assuming it's not mind-affecting and if Cthulhu has no known immunity/imperviousness to damage alone.


So with just those points we've addressed, I'm guessing the demilich will be annoyed once it realizes Cthulhu no-sells its attempts to terrorize it (like how the small animated object no sold its intimidate checks), and will troll some other powerful being that doesn't have those two pesky immunities. It would likely be more annoyed than usual because this creature practically gave it another "The Reason You Suck" speech effect (except this one's turned to 11*) without even trying or speaking, moderately inconveniencing him for who knows how long.


* or 100, or infinity, or whatever your hyperbole requires

[OldTrees1]

On one hand, for Cthulhu
1. The problem I see is that it's basically just something of a confirmation: bottom level commoners/experts are definitely meaningless and trivial compared to PCs at high levels, and maybe even lower for non-mundanes. That's just how things are in D&D, barring extreme levels of cheese involving sacrifices and tortures, and even then the individuality of these mooks don't even matter. On the other hand, even if we assume that this effect, for some unexplained reason, affects everyone with zero exceptions (likely no, because Azathoth), a knowledgeable and experienced caster must have already realized a long time ago just how meaningless and trivial it had been compared to the top tiers in the D&D world (deities, elder evils, etc), so this won't probably be the first.
2. insanity effects (always derived AFAIK from the spell of the same name) are mind-affecting, so a simple immunity to it will suffice.

On the other hand, for the Demilich
2. The problem I see is that "terrorize" suggests inflicting fear of some sort, which in D&D have plenty of absolute negators, especially if we consider fear effects as always getting the mind-affecting tag. Thus, the goal may as well not work if Cthulhu has one of the many ways to achieve immunity, such as through magic items. A dread witch with searing, fell frighten no-save, no-SR, no-attack spell might work, assuming it's not mind-affecting and if Cthulhu has no known immunity/imperviousness to damage alone.


So with just those points we've addressed, I'm guessing the demilich will be annoyed once it realizes Cthulhu no-sells its attempts to terrorize it (like how the small animated object no sold its intimidate checks), and will troll some other powerful being that doesn't have those two pesky immunities. It would likely be more annoyed than usual because this creature practically gave it another "The Reason You Suck" speech effect (except this one's turned to 11*) without even trying or speaking, moderately inconveniencing him for who knows how long.


* or 100, or infinity, or whatever your hyperbole requires

1C) I think a canonical cutoff point is "part of the mythos or not". Certainly it is not bottom of the ladder since most of those that were affected were at the top of their world excluding the mythos.
2C) I am not convinced but I see no reason to dispute this point.
2D) Are we sure terrorize is a form of fear here? I would have expected annoy/frustrate turned up to 11 to be sufficient. The problem is I would go insane long before I could find out if it is even possible to learn what would annoy/frustrate Cthulhu. However a Demi-lich is above my Int/Wis grade so ...? I do expect that we cannot rely on "the spell will know" because the Demi-lich might need to resort to something other than magic. So I do hold that the Demi-lich will need a successful guess even if they don't know.

All in all I think it is looking more and more likely that this goal could be accomplished.

[illyahr]

Given what we know of both, I'm going with "Possible, but highly unlikely"

[noob]

Given what we know of both, I'm going with "Possible, but highly unlikely"
Why?
Let us say that this demilich have ranks in truenaming the truename dispel spell and a lot of rudisplorking.
he send a rabbit in the far realms and cast truename dispel on that rabbit(through a gate and while using transdimensional spell or one of the many other sheanigans for that).
He remove far realms because it is effecting the rabbit(and he can remove a whole lot of other things).

[illyahr]

Why?
Let us say that this demilich have ranks in truenaming the truename dispel spell and a lot of rudisplorking.
he send a rabbit in the far realms and cast truename dispel on that rabbit(through a gate and while using transdimensional spell or one of the many other sheanigans for that).
He remove far realms because it is effecting the rabbit(and he can remove a whole lot of other things).

First off: I don't care what anyone else says, that's not how the English language works. Sorry.

Second: The reason that Wizards are tier 1 is because, given enough time and preparation, they can handle almost anything. The issue with this is the wizard needs to know his opponent before he can prepare. Cthuhlu, by its very nature, is unknowable. Therefore, the wizard is unable to properly prepare. The wizard might be able to build up a general set of spells to help, but until he is actually standing before Cthuhlu, there is no guarantee that the spells he prepared will be effective.

[Snowbluff]

Second: The reason that Wizards are tier 1 is because, given enough time and preparation, they can handle almost anything. The issue with this is the wizard needs to know his opponent before he can prepare. Cthuhlu, by its very nature, is unknowable. Therefore, the wizard is unable to properly prepare. The wizard might be able to build up a general set of spells to help, but until he is actually standing before Cthuhlu, there is no guarantee that the spells he prepared will be effective.

Certifiably false. Generate a duplicate of Cthulu, and have it develop a solution for you. Unless Cthulu can not understand itself (in which case, it can't function), you've got yourself whatever solution you need.

If that doesn't work, make 2...

[Flickerdart]

Certifiably false. Generate a duplicate of Cthulu, and have it develop a solution for you. Unless Cthulu can not understand itself (in which case, it can't function), you've got yourself whatever solution you need.
This seems somewhat fruitless - since comprehending Cthulhu is what drives people off the deep end, even a friendly Cthulhu ice assassin would still mind crush the lich. And if the lich is immune to Cthulhu's mind crushing in the first place, it doesn't really need the clone or any special prep to win.

[Snowbluff]

This seems somewhat fruitless - since comprehending Cthulhu is what drives people off the deep end, even a friendly Cthulhu ice assassin would still mind crush the lich. And if the lich is immune to Cthulhu's mind crushing in the first place, it doesn't really need the clone or any special prep to win.

Well, the Demi Lich definitely is immune (can't be mad, as such effects would fall under between 1 to 3 of their immunities), but I was more against the idea that nothing can comprehend Cthulu, which is ridiculous. :p

[illyahr]

Certifiably false. Generate a duplicate of Cthulu, and have it develop a solution for you. Unless Cthulu can not understand itself (in which case, it can't function), you've got yourself whatever solution you need.

If that doesn't work, make 2...

You can't make a duplicate unless you know the subject, which brings us back full circle.

[Snowbluff]

You can't make a duplicate unless you know the subject, which brings us back full circle.

It has a name. That's all you need.

Suffice it to say that HP Lovecraft is a regressive primitive by modern standards. Humans are capable of imaging and deducing a lot. When someone says that we would be to Cthulu what ants are to us, forgets that ants couldn't never try to conceive of the idea of something being inconceivable. After that, a demilich is many times smarter than that kind of human.

[illyahr]

It has a name. That's all you need.

Suffice it to say that HP Lovecraft is a regressive primitive by modern standards. Humans are capable of imaging and deducing a lot. When someone says that we would be to Cthulu what ants are to us, forgets that ants couldn't never try to conceive of the idea of something being inconceivable. After that, a demilich is many times smarter than that kind of human.

We know his name. Does the demilich?

This is an amazing amount of grammatical acrobatics and I can't decide if I'm impressed or horrified. :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

We know his name. Does the demilich?

This is an amazing amount of grammatical acrobatics and I can't decide if I'm impressed or horrified. :smallbiggrin:

Do we know its name? I call it Cthulhu since that is what a I read a person said they read a madman call it. Is that really a credible source?

[Snowbluff]

IIRC, the stories are sourced using translated texts. It works out in the end.

We know his name. Does the demilich? I dunno. What would a creature of infinite knowledge, power, and resources not know?


This is an amazing amount of grammatical acrobatics and I can't decide if I'm impressed or horrified. :smallbiggrin:

Don't be an ant! :smalltongue:

[Gildedragon]

Also aren't liches and demiliches already described to be insane.

[illyahr]

I dunno. What would a creature of infinite knowledge, power, and resources not know?

Boccob doesn't even have infinite knowledge and he's the god of knowledge. Also, power in D&D is measured by level (or so the theory goes). The demilich is level 30, not level infinity.

The demilich is extremely powerful, extremely intelligent, and resourceful enough to make himself a demilich. However, the Far Realms have no information available about them other than "it's there" as it runs on principles that simply can not be understood by anyone except the insane, and even that is iffy.

[Snowbluff]

Boccob doesn't even have infinite knowledge and he's the god of knowledge. Also, power in D&D is measured by level (or so the theory goes). The demilich is level 30, not level infinity.

You're right, he got there at least 15 levels ago. Not that the question hasn't been answered by the premise existing. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnthropicPrinciple) Still, I find it odd that you can think of something as inconceivable and are willing to buy that, but not something that can inconceivably conceive the inconceivable. It's a very self contradictory line of thought.

[illyahr]

You're right, he got there at least 15 levels ago. Not that the question hasn't been answered by the premise existing. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AnthropicPrinciple) Still, I find it odd that you can think of something as inconceivable and are willing to buy that, but not something that can inconceivably conceive the inconceivable. It's a very self contradictory line of thought.

Whoa, there. A little warning when you link to Tvtropes. :smallbiggrin:

And that word you keep using. I do not think it means what you think it means. :smalltongue:

[Bohandas]

Without a steam ship, no. You go mad and decide ice cream is next season biggest fasion.

Undead are immune to mind-influencing effects