Witch bolt seems pretty awful

[quinron]

As per the title: one of my players (it's his first time playing 5e, he's played a fair bit of 3.5) is running a 4th-level wizard who likes to use witch bolt - to the point that the "lightning leash" is one of his signature moves - and I'm finding myself breaking it almost every time he uses it because not doing so seems downright imbecilic.

Compared to most other 1st-level spells, an attack roll for 1d12 damage is absolutely pitiful; magic missile deals a higher average, and it never misses. I'm guessing the balance of the spell depends on being able to get a few rounds of guaranteed damage, but if he's fighting something with even slightly-below-average Intelligence, I think their first instinct would be to try to run away, which breaks the leash and ends the spell.

The thing is, I think witch bolt is a very cool spell, but as it is now, it's next to useless. To balance it out, how does this sound for a house rule:

"Until the end of the turn after you hit a target with this spell, the target cannot move outside the spell's range. On each turn after that, the target must succeed on a [not sure what ability? Dex probably] saving throw at the beginning of its turn or it cannot move outside the spell's range."

This guarantees you can deal 13 (2d12) damage so long as your concentration isn't broken, albeit over multiple rounds, and it also allows a wizard who's willing to dish a bit in combat to act as a battlefield controller without having to give up his damage-dealing capabilities.

[Giant2005]

The damage sucks - it isn't any better than a cantrip. The only use the spell has is the one that the player has been using it for - convincing enemies without enough sensitivity to realize it is doing bugger all damage to them, to spend their turn running away. Your change would prevent that.
Sure your change adds a different use, and much more reliably (the enemies running away pretty much relies on the enemy being stupid), but the running away use is much more useful to the average caster than forcing them to stay in your face.

[Gastronomie]

I think something like "the target must suceed on a Con save or whatever or lose all movement speed for one turn" would be better. Still not overpowered.

Some spells are overpowered, others are terrible. But if the DM wants, he could always re-write the effects of the underpowered to make them more fun and interesting.

[Dr. Cliché]

Rather than reducing enemy speed, would it be better if they had to move further away to end the spell?

So, the spell still only has a 30ft range when you initially cast it, but the enemy has to move something like 60 or 90ft away from you to end it. It could even give you an idea of their direction and distance from you if they move out of your LoS but are still within range.

[Waazraath]

Maybe the spell was more meant for the warlock, with auto-scaling spell slots? As a fifth level spell, 5d12 damage, every round, is okish, at least. Most of the warlock's carreer, it does more damage than a cantrip, and you only need to hit once (for which you can use inspiration, or a bardic inspiration die, or whatever, to help it hit).

Still not great, but better. For a wizard: seems bloody useless indeed.

[NewDM]

My character uses Witch Bolt on paralyzed targets which means it deals double the damage and nothing runs away. Since it requires an attack roll it is an automatic critical hit and that means all damage dice are rolled twice.

[Giant2005]

Maybe the spell was more meant for the warlock, with auto-scaling spell slots? As a fifth level spell, 5d12 damage, every round, is okish, at least. Most of the warlock's carreer, it does more damage than a cantrip, and you only need to hit once (for which you can use inspiration, or a bardic inspiration die, or whatever, to help it hit).

Still not great, but better. For a wizard: seems bloody useless indeed.

It is 5d12 for the first round and 1d12 for every round after that.

[Waazraath]

It is 5d12 for the first round and 1d12 for every round after that.

Ah. Nvm. Just bloody awful, in that case.

[Dr. Cliché]

It is 5d12 for the first round and 1d12 for every round after that.

Indeed.

Not to mention that Hex + Eldritch Blast at that level would deal 2d10+2d6+6 (assuming 16 Cha). If the Warlock is 11th level, it would be 3d10+3d6+9. And, this damage would be repeatable every round. On different targets. For 24 hours.

[NewDM]

Indeed.

Not to mention that Hex + Eldritch Blast at that level would deal 2d10+2d6+6 (assuming 16 Cha). If the Warlock is 11th level, it would be 3d10+3d6+9. And, this damage would be repeatable every round. On different targets. For 24 hours.

But it requires an attack roll on each ray of each attack.

[JellyPooga]

My character uses Witch Bolt on paralyzed targets

This is what Witch Bolt is for. It's not a straight up combat spell; Eldritch Blast is better for that. It's not really a control spell because different creatures react differently to "being damaged".

What it's good for is throwaway damage; it's almost a flippant spell, but it relies on the target being bound or otherwise restrained (which can include being stuck in a cell or pit, for example).

"I'll deal 10d12 damage to you, at my leisure. It could take a while. Oh no, you don't get to do anything about it, I just thought I'd let you know what's going to happen. What was that? I couldn't hear you through the screaming; did you want to say something? Stop? Why would I stop? I'm performing valuable research here..."

It's also got potential used in conjunction with a (friendly) Flesh Golem or Shambling Mound...

[Kryx]

I added the following at the end:

Each time the creature takes this damage it must make a Constitution saving throw or be grappled until the end of your next turn. The spell ends if the target is outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you at the end of your turn.

Though most low level damage spells have this same problem as cantrips scale. Most become worthless at higher levels.

[Dr. Cliché]

But it requires an attack roll on each ray of each attack.

Witch Bolt also requires an attack roll. Miss and the entire spell is wasted.

[Kane0]

Yep, there have been threads about this poor spell before.

1. Increase range
2. Remove concentration requirement
3. Bonus action to cast/maintain
4. Isnt broken as soon as enemy leaves range, only if you end your turn out of range
5. Damage on higher slots increases for both initial and subsequent uses

Pick 1-2 of the above, maybe 3 if you're feeling generous

Some make it more like flaming sphere and the like, action to cast and can use a bonus action to zap a target within range while concentrating.

[Dr. Cliché]

Though most low level damage spells have this same problem as cantrips scale. Most become worthless at higher levels.

I imagine it's also a matter of utility - especially for a class like Warlock, with such limited spell slots.

I mean, are you really gaining that much by expending a precious spell slot to cast Witch bolt and then zap the enemy with it every turn, as opposed to just Eldritch Blasting them every turn? The latter requires no concentration, can't be stopped by the enemy moving 35ft from you and can target multiple enemies. If you do want to use a spell, then (as above) Hex can give you extra damage on multiple targets for an entire day (compared to a Lv5 casting of Witch Bolt). Or, you could just use Eldritch Blast for damage and save your spell slots for stuff like Counterspell or Fly.

Put simply, even if Witch Bolt offers slightly better damage to Eldritch Blast, is it really significant enough to be worth expending a precious spell slot for?

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is what Witch Bolt is for. It's not a straight up combat spell; Eldritch Blast is better for that. It's not really a control spell because different creatures react differently to "being damaged".

What it's good for is throwaway damage; it's almost a flippant spell, but it relies on the target being bound or otherwise restrained (which can include being stuck in a cell or pit, for example).

"I'll deal 10d12 damage to you, at my leisure. It could take a while. Oh no, you don't get to do anything about it, I just thought I'd let you know what's going to happen. What was that? I couldn't hear you through the screaming; did you want to say something? Stop? Why would I stop? I'm performing valuable research here..."

It's also got potential used in conjunction with a (friendly) Flesh Golem or Shambling Mound...
This is a terrible use of a spell slot. That's what cantrips are for. I second Kane0's list of suggestions.

[Joe the Rat]

Indeed.

I'm thinking about trying it in my game using a bonus action maintain. I may try ending the caster's turn beyond range to end the spell as well.

Currently, I see two niches where it could be useful:

Electric Dragon Sorcerers: Cha to element damage (so not as bad), metatmagic bonus action spell options
Warcasters: The spell requires an action to maintain. You may freely cast on your reactions. Get up close and personal, then Booming Blade or Lightning Lure when they try to bug out. Disengage? They'd better be able to cover a lot of ground. I prefer the latter: let's throw another lightning arc at the guy trying to run away.

[Zman]

Yep, there have been threads about this poor spell before.

1. Increase range
2. Remove concentration requirement
3. Bonus action to cast/maintain
4. Isnt broken as soon as enemy leaves range, only if you end your turn out of range
5. Damage on higher slots increases for both initial and subsequent uses

Pick 1-2 of the above, maybe 3 if you're feeling generous

Some make it more like flaming sphere and the like, action to cast and can use a bonus action to zap a target within range while concentrating.

Agreed. It has potential, just poorly executed. Thought, making an enemy voluntarily run away for a turn has its own worth, haha.

[Segev]

Does your player complain about enemies running out of its area?

Are they spending more than their normal move to do so?

Does he rely on them running out of its reach?

If he wants to trap them, he could cast it while they're in melee with his allies. Especially useful if he has to go through his allies to get out of reach of the spell. If he wants to make them move out of the way, then it's doing what he wants it to do. If he wants to keep them "leashed," he can move up next to them before casting it; unless they're faster than him, they won't be able to get away without using a Dash action or something.

I don't have the spell in front of me right now; when does it check to see if the target is in range for its end-condition? THe moment he's out of range? At the start/end of his turn? At the start/end of the caster's turn?

If it's not the last one, I'd suggest the change should be that it doesn't end unless the target is out of range at the end of the caster's turn. That way, the caster can "follow" to keep him in range. Have the damage dealt at the end of the caster's turn, too, just to prevent it from failing to do damage if the caster is chasing.

Actually, I'd word it something like this: "Once during his turn as a free action, while the target is in range, the caster can deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target. If the caster does not do this on any of his turns, the spell ends."

Or even remove the bit about the spell ending; make it so that the target coming back in range lets the caster deal damage to him again for free.

[jas61292]

I feel like one of witch bolt's biggest weaknesses is DMs that play the mechanics and not the creatures. There are so many spells with continuing effects and much longer ranges than witch bolt. And more than one of those include visible lightning. Unless the creature is either knowledgeable about the specific spell, or planning on running away anyways, the likely reaction to the spell is never going to be "step out of range to end it, and then come back in." Rather, it would far more likely be "kill the magic dude to stop the pain." At that point it becomes a game of keeping concentration, which you are far more likely to be able to keep up for a few rounds.

[EvilAnagram]

I find that Witch Bolt is more effective if you can use different abilities. An Eldritch Knight or sorcerer, especially at lower levels, can cast Witch Bolt and Booming Blade in the same turn, creating a situation in which an enemy can either move and take damage or stay still and take damage. Providing two bad options was always the best way to tank in 4e, and it can be quite useful in 5e, too.

It's also helpful if you're a melee character with Sentinel since you can use your op-attack to keep it in place while the damage keeps stacking each turn.

If you're a ranged caster with a Sentinel ally, this is actually a solid choice. The damage is guaranteed, and your buddy can still make a full attack each round.

I agree that maintaining it with a bonus action is a great fix to the spell.

[Temperjoke]

I find that Witch Bolt is more effective if you can use different abilities. An Eldritch Knight or sorcerer, especially at lower levels, can cast Witch Bolt and Booming Blade in the same turn, creating a situation in which an enemy can either move and take damage or stay still and take damage.

I was just thinking about this combination.

What if you added penalty damage for moving after the initial hit? The enemy would have to decide whether to endure it, try to break the caster's concentration, or take the hit trying to leave.

[N810]

So, Spike growth then ? :smallwink:

[Temperjoke]

So, Spike growth then ? :smallwink:

Spike Growth affects an area and hurts everyone who enters the area, while Witch Bolt is single target, and the classes that get Spike Growth don't get Witch Bolt, and visa versa.

[kaoskonfety]

Hmm... if we make it a warlock healing spell instead of lightning damages its suddenly rather interesting... no stat bonus, just straight d12's so its kinda random, eats your action but you can decide round by round to "drop it", you have to stay close to the target but not "crazy close"...

might tweek it a little try it out if I can find a willing group

[Submortimer]

This is a terrible use of a spell slot. That's what cantrips are for. I second Kane0's list of suggestions.


You know...why not make Witch Bolt a Cantrip?


Witch Bolt
Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
Description:
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage. The following round, you may use a bonus action to automatically deal lightning damage to that target equal to your spellcasting modifier.
The initial and secondary damage each increase by 1d8 at level 5 (2d8/1d8), level 11 (3d8/2d8), and level 17 (4d8/3d8).

Classes: Sorc, Wiz, War

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

A nice idea, but a bit strong as written. I'd keep it a full action for the repeating damage, and I'd probably lower it to 1d6 across the board if I was changing it to a cantrip.

[Dr. Cliché]

A nice idea, but a bit strong as written. I'd keep it a full action for the repeating damage, and I'd probably lower it to 1d6 across the board if I was changing it to a cantrip.

With damage that low, what's the point?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

With damage that low, what's the point?

Why does it need to be the most damaging option? That's what EB is for. You use this because you want to not miss after the first shot, or to force the target to flee which is a particularly strong effect. Comparable to Vicious Mockery which only does 1d4 or Frostbite which is 1d6.
At 1d8 damage, it beats out most other cantrips due to accuracy alone.

[Submortimer]

A nice idea, but a bit strong as written. I'd keep it a full action for the repeating damage, and I'd probably lower it to 1d6 across the board if I was changing it to a cantrip.

Damage wise, it's right in line with Booming blade, it just requires that you use a bonus action for extra damage instead of getting it when they move. I almost want to INCREASE the damage to d10, but that feels like a bit much. Lowering the damage would make it outright useless.

[Segev]

It is interesting, but not necessarily redeeming, that witch bolt takes an action, but doesn't require spellcasting. So if you have bonus-action spells, or have undergone a polymorph or Wild Shape since casting it, it doesn't stop being usable.

Taking an action to do the damage does limit the usefulness of other forms, though.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why does it need to be the most damaging option?

It has no other purpose. If it can't compete with other damage cantript, what's the point?

[Temperjoke]

It is interesting, but not necessarily redeeming, that witch bolt takes an action, but doesn't require spellcasting. So if you have bonus-action spells, or have undergone a polymorph or Wild Shape since casting it, it doesn't stop being usable.

Taking an action to do the damage does limit the usefulness of other forms, though.

Maybe that should be the fix? Having it use your bonus action instead of main action?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Damage wise, it's right in line with Booming blade, it just requires that you use a bonus action for extra damage instead of getting it when they move. I almost want to INCREASE the damage to d10, but that feels like a bit much. Lowering the damage would make it outright useless.

You're only comparing it to the very best options, not the average option. I have my own problems with Booming blade and Greenflame blade in that they become default optimal choices for any melee attacker who can acquire them who doesn't have an extra attack.
Other cantrips must make their attack roll each round, so their expected damage is reduced by the odds to hit. For your proposed cantrip, only the first round suffers an accuracy penalty, and every round thereafter it does automatic damage.
Further, if it only requires a bonus action to maintain, the expected damage is further increased by being able to fire additional cantrips simultaneously. No other cantrip allows this without using something like Twinning.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

It has no other purpose. If it can't compete with other damage cantript, what's the point?

See my other post. It is my position that it is too strong for damage as originally proposed over the course of more than one round. In addition, it has tactical implications that pure damage cantrips do not have.

[krugaan]

You're only comparing it to the very best options, not the average option. I have my own problems with Booming blade and Greenflame blade in that they become default optimal choices for any melee attacker who can acquire them who doesn't have an extra attack.

I haven't had any experiences with BB or GFB, but ... what melee attacker doesn't get extra attack?

The only one I can think of is cleric (and maybe rogue), and they would need multiclass or magic initiate to gain the feat.

[Submortimer]

Why does it need to be the most damaging option? That's what EB is for. You use this because you want to not miss after the first shot, or to force the target to flee which is a particularly strong effect. Comparable to Vicious Mockery which only does 1d4 or Frostbite which is 1d6.
At 1d8 damage, it beats out most other cantrips due to accuracy alone.

Both Vicious Mockery and Frostbite are Save cantrips, and both force disadvantage on the targets next attack, that's why the damage is so low on both of those spells.

The standard is d10 if it does nothing but damage on a spell attack, d8 if it has a rider or works on a save, d6 if it hits multiple targets or operates on a save AND has a rider.

The two notable exceptions are VM and Poison Spray. VM deals psychic damage, which almost nothing has resistance to, and PS deals poison damage, which almost EVERYTHING has resistance to.

[Tanarii]

I haven't had any experiences with BB or GFB, but ... what melee attacker doesn't get extra attack?Dragonborn Sorcerer (Draconic) as a GISH. Str primary, Con/Cha secondary (and choose primarily non-attack/save spells). Or possibly Mountain Dwarf for better weapons and armor.

Edit: Not really germane to the conversation. Just the first thing that popped into my head.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Both Vicious Mockery and Frostbite are Save cantrips, and both force disadvantage on the targets next attack, that's why the damage is so low on both of those spells.

The standard is d10 if it does nothing but damage on a spell attack, d8 if it has a rider or works on a save, d6 if it hits multiple targets or operates on a save AND has a rider.

The two notable exceptions are VM and Poison Spray. VM deals psychic damage, which almost nothing has resistance to, and PS deals poison damage, which almost EVERYTHING has resistance to.

That is an interesting interpretation, I have not thought of it that way before. But I don't see it as the explicit guide to creating cantrips. Not all possible riders are created equal, and should be judged individually.

[krugaan]

Dragonborn Sorcerer (Draconic) as a GISH. Str primary, Con/Cha secondary (and choose primarily non-attack/save spells).

Or possibly Mountain Dwarf for better weapons and armor.

point taken, but I hardly feel like it's overpowered in any sense of the word

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I haven't had any experiences with BB or GFB, but ... what melee attacker doesn't get extra attack?

The only one I can think of is cleric (and maybe rogue), and they would need multiclass or magic initiate to gain the feat.

AT rogue, Lore bard, Clerics, Druids, Non-bladepact Warlocks. And anyone can choose High elf as a race.

[Submortimer]

You're only comparing it to the very best options, not the average option. I have my own problems with Booming blade and Greenflame blade in that they become default optimal choices for any melee attacker who can acquire them who doesn't have an extra attack.
Other cantrips must make their attack roll each round, so their expected damage is reduced by the odds to hit. For your proposed cantrip, only the first round suffers an accuracy penalty, and every round thereafter it does automatic damage.
Further, if it only requires a bonus action to maintain, the expected damage is further increased by being able to fire additional cantrips simultaneously. No other cantrip allows this without using something like Twinning.

1. Booming blade is the only cantrip that deals damage off-turn. It is the only comparable option. Additionally, this is weaker than booming blade in that it eats up part of your action economy where booming blade does not. In trade-off, it is given a modest range.

2. Every round thereafter = 1 round. One additional round of damage, which keeps it in line with Booming Blade.

3. Yet again, booming blade. No other cantrip does off turn damage, so there's no proper comparison.

[krugaan]

AT rogue, Lore bard, Clerics, Druids, Non-bladepact Warlocks. And anyone can choose High elf as a race.

besides the ones I mentioned, i'd hardly consider any of those actual melee attackers.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

besides the ones I mentioned, i'd hardly consider any of those actual melee attackers.

But you do agree that the case does exist for rogues at least?

[Submortimer]

But you do agree that the case does exist for rogues at least?

Absolutely this. GFB/BB is the best option for a melee AT.

[krugaan]

But you do agree that the case does exists for rogues at least?

Well yes, although that's really the only case which provides a clear cut benefit. So, the one case, really, and I don't feel that it's terribly unbalancing.

I mean, no one is really complaining that rogues are tearing up the dpr charts, an extra 4d6 or whatever on top of sneak attack is hardly gamebreaking at level 17, and that precludes using offhand to get sneak attack if the cantrip misses.


Absolutely this. GFB/BB is the best option for a melee AT.

Again ... it's almost like they were giving a buff to gishes, all gishes...

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I mean, no one is really complaining that rogues are tearing up the dpr charts, an extra 4d6 or whatever on top of sneak attack is hardly gamebreaking at level 17, and that precludes using offhand to get sneak attack if the cantrip misses.

While, yes, it doesn't push into new possible maximums, it does raise the floor of what rogues can be expected to do. For instance, in all situations where Cunning action is to be used, then having these cantrip is absolutely better than not having it. It is a small thing, but I don't like to see power creep. Every ability that was close to the average now falls a bit below average, and it shrinks the list of good options.

[Carlobrand]

I assume Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade originate from some supplement.

[krugaan]

While, yes, it doesn't push into new possible maximums, it does raise the floor of what rogues can be expected to do. For instance, in all situations where Cunning action is to be used, then having these cantrip is absolutely better than not having it. It is a small thing, but I don't like to see power creep. Every ability that was close to the average now falls a bit below average, and it shrinks the list of good options.

I suppose, although at the glacial rate they are releasing content (compared to 3e, which I suppose is a good thing), I doubt power creep is going to be much of an issue. I rather see this more as equalizing an underutilized subclass.

Lets face it, assassin is by far the most popular choice.

[Submortimer]

While, yes, it doesn't push into new possible maximums, it does raise the floor of what rogues can be expected to do. For instance, in all situations where Cunning action is to be used, then having these cantrip is absolutely better than not having it. It is a small thing, but I don't like to see power creep. Every ability that was close to the average now falls a bit below average, and it shrinks the list of good options.

Not entirely. It does entirely invalidate the TWF rogue if damage is your only concern, but even that has some substantial benefits.

Basically:


If your'e gonna use one weapon, probably play an AT and use a weapon cantrip. Best damage for your action use.
If you're gonna go TWF, do everything in your power to always make both attacks. Two chances to get Sneak Attack is always better than one.
Otherwise, go ranged. Go hand crossbow/crossbow expert and be excellent all the time.

[Tanarii]

I suppose, although at the glacial rate they are releasing content (compared to 3e, which I suppose is a good thing), I doubt power creep is going to be much of an issue. I rather see this more as equalizing an underutilized subclass.

Lets face it, assassin is by far the most popular choice.

Power creep is power creep. And the SCAG cantrips are massive power creep. There's a reason they come up over and over again both in optimization threads and in official play.

And I disagree assassins are most popular, but unless we have a way to poll all D&D games everywhere I don't think we'll get far proving each other wrong on that. :smallamused: But anecdotally I'd put AT as popular as both the other archetypes put together.

[mgshamster]

So the bad guys run away when they get hit by Witch Bolt?

Sounds like a great tool to use for getting enemies to run when you want them to - right into a trap. :)

It's like casting fear on someone and they take damage, too!

[Foxhound438]

I assume Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade originate from some supplement.

sword coast adventure guide. People here like them more than is warranted. Everyone seems to have entirely forgotten good old shocking grasp, mr. "I see you're wearing plate and are next to me..."

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Despite my objections, I'm not too strongly concerned about the current state of supplements and balance. It's not a competitive game after all. I just think its something to be mindful of when evaluating content, and especially when designing/home-brewing new content.

[PIELIKEI]

You know...why not make Witch Bolt a Cantrip?


Witch Bolt
Evocation Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 round
Description:
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 lightning damage. The following round, you may use a bonus action to automatically deal lightning damage to that target equal to your spellcasting modifier.
The initial and secondary damage each increase by 1d8 at level 5 (2d8/1d8), level 11 (3d8/2d8), and level 17 (4d8/3d8).

Classes: Sorc, Wiz, War

Or another option.


Witch Bolt
2nd-Level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 45 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: 10 minutes
Description:
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. On each of your turns for the duration you can use your action to make a ranged spell attack against any creature within range. On a hit, the target and all targets affected by Witch Bolt take 1d12 lightning damage and the target gets affected by Witch Bolt. If the target already affected by Witch Bolt its movement speed is halved for one turn instead. Alternatively, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage all targets affected by Witch Bolt automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else or if no target is affected by your Witch Bolt. A target can remove Witch Bolt by going outside of range or gaining total cover from you. The lightning damage from Witch Bolt goes up by 1d12 for every 2 levels above level 2. The range of Witch Bolt increases by 15 ft for every 2 levels above level 2.

Classes: Sorc, Wiz, War

[Submortimer]

sword coast adventure guide. People here like them more than is warranted. Everyone seems to have entirely forgotten good old shocking grasp, mr. "I see you're wearing plate and are next to me..."

"What? you wanted to take reactions? Well isn't THAT a shame."

I think they were just a thing people wanted to see. I know I did. Still, they are very good for very specific cases (EK, AT, Bladelock (depending on the build), storm cleric, Bladesinger), and only decent for the others, much like most of the other abilities in 5e. People easily forget that, in this edition, being in melee is usually very, VERY bad for characters that don't want to be there. Nine times out of ten, your wizard should be using Fire Bolt if they're gonna use a cantrip at all, and that one other time he should be using Shocking Grasp to get the hell out of dodge.

[JellyPooga]

This is a terrible use of a spell slot. That's what cantrips are for. I second Kane0's list of suggestions.

As I stated, IMO it's not a combat spell. It's not a spell designed to kill someone quickly. Heck, I'm not convinced it's a spell designed to kill someone at all, but rather to cause a lot of pain. It's (probably supposed to be) the Emperors Force Lightning from Return of the Jedi; if he wanted to kill Luke, he'd choke him or fling him into the chasm that Vader subsequently chucks him in. No, what the Emperor wanted was to cause Luke a lot of pain whilst he gave his "villains exposition".

That's what Witch Bolt is for; causing damage, but in nice small chunks. Yes, you could spam Cantrips instead, roll the dice and take your chances, high though they may be OR you could stack the table once in your favour, then sit back and watch the show.

Witch Bolt does 10d12 damage (average 65) as a 1st level spell, requiring one successful attack roll, concentration, your action every turn for 1 minute and for the target to stay in range.

Eldritch Blast does 1d10+(Cha mod) per turn (average 8.5/turn with Cha:16), as a 1st level Caster, requiring one attack roll per turn and your action every turn.

Before I get to brass tacks, I'd like to once again mention that I don't think Witch Bolt is a combat spell in the first place. Second, Eldritch Blast is considered by many to be one of the best combat Cantrips in the game. Comparing them is like trying to compare Phantasmal Force to Fireball; they might both deal HP damage, but they serve two very different purposes. Third, as a 1st level spell (note that this is not upcast in a higher level slot, nor influenced by any modifiers that might apply, such as the Draconic Sorcerers Elemental Affinity), assuming you can meet the requirements as outlined above, Witch Bolt deals an average of 65 damage to a single target. This is comparable to spells of a much higher level. Jumping through hoops should be expected for such an effect.

Anyway, I digress...Assuming the target is restrained (somehow) and you've nothing better to do than attack this guy (which is the circumstance I initially proposed and you called out as a "terrible use"), it will take Eldritch Blast 7 turns to roughly match the full damage potential of Witch Bolt. That's 7 attack rolls. Other Cantrips will take significantly longer e.g. Firebolt: 12 turns, or Ray of Frost: 14 turns. Assuming you hit every time and average damage rolls.

Advantage (available from many sources), Bless, Portent, Bardic Inspiration...are just the start of the list, off the top of my head, of resources that only require a single expenditure with Witch Bolt, but would require 7 uses with EB to have the same efficacy.

If you have the time, you arguably won't need to use those resources because you can just keep blasting until you hit, but whether you're a hero or a villain, missing a whole bunch of times against a guy in a pit or caged doesn't look good for the reputation and certainly won't help if the intent is an interrogation. If you don't have the time? Well, you can play the odds, as I said.

Is it a great use of a spell slot? Perhaps not. Is casting Identify a great use of a spell slot? Not really...unless the circumstances demand it or make it worthwhile; in the case of Identify, maybe time is short, in the case of Witch Bolt, there are those circumstances where a Cantrip isn't going to do the job 100% of the time, but Witch Bolt might just come in handy.

[Tanarii]

I'd consider it for the first few levels as a Wizard who only knew utility cantrips, or a Lightning Sorcerer with Shocking Grasp as his only attack cantrip. Although in the latter case, I'd probably swap it for Chromatic Orb once I could afford the 50gp material component for that spell. IMX that's typically the 2nd --> 3rd level up that Sorcs swap into Chromatic Orb, so that'd be the time to ditch it.

[krugaan]

As I stated, IMO it's not a combat spell. It's not a spell designed to kill someone quickly. Heck, I'm not convinced it's a spell designed to kill someone at all, but rather to cause a lot of pain. It's (probably supposed to be) the Emperors Force Lightning from Return of the Jedi; if he wanted to kill Luke, he'd choke him or fling him into the chasm that Vader subsequently chucks him in. No, what the Emperor wanted was to cause Luke a lot of pain whilst he gave his "villains exposition".

That's what Witch Bolt is for; causing damage, but in nice small chunks. Yes, you could spam Cantrips instead, roll the dice and take your chances, high though they may be OR you could stack the table once in your favour, then sit back and watch the show.

Witch Bolt does 10d12 damage (average 65) as a 1st level spell, requiring one successful attack roll, concentration, your action every turn for 1 minute and for the target to stay in range.

Eldritch Blast does 1d10+(Cha mod) per turn (average 8.5/turn with Cha:16), as a 1st level Caster, requiring one attack roll per turn and your action every turn.

Before I get to brass tacks, I'd like to once again mention that I don't think Witch Bolt is a combat spell in the first place. Second, Eldritch Blast is considered by many to be one of the best combat Cantrips in the game. Comparing them is like trying to compare Phantasmal Force to Fireball; they might both deal HP damage, but they serve two very different purposes. Third, as a 1st level spell (note that this is not upcast in a higher level slot, nor influenced by any modifiers that might apply, such as the Draconic Sorcerers Elemental Affinity), assuming you can meet the requirements as outlined above, Witch Bolt deals an average of 65 damage to a single target. This is comparable to spells of a much higher level. Jumping through hoops should be expected for such an effect.

Anyway, I digress...Assuming the target is restrained (somehow) and you've nothing better to do than attack this guy (which is the circumstance I initially proposed and you called out as a "terrible use"), it will take Eldritch Blast 7 turns to roughly match the full damage potential of Witch Bolt. That's 7 attack rolls. Other Cantrips will take significantly longer e.g. Firebolt: 12 turns, or Ray of Frost: 14 turns. Assuming you hit every time and average damage rolls.

Advantage (available from many sources), Bless, Portent, Bardic Inspiration...are just the start of the list, off the top of my head, of resources that only require a single expenditure with Witch Bolt, but would require 7 uses with EB to have the same efficacy.

If you have the time, you arguably won't need to use those resources because you can just keep blasting until you hit, but whether you're a hero or a villain, missing a whole bunch of times against a guy in a pit or caged doesn't look good for the reputation and certainly won't help if the intent is an interrogation. If you don't have the time? Well, you can play the odds, as I said.

Is it a great use of a spell slot? Perhaps not. Is casting Identify a great use of a spell slot? Not really...unless the circumstances demand it or make it worthwhile; in the case of Identify, maybe time is short, in the case of Witch Bolt, there are those circumstances where a Cantrip isn't going to do the job 100% of the time, but Witch Bolt might just come in handy.

Here's my idea for witch bolt:

cantrip: as a bonus action, deal 2 damage to a target you have damaged either this round or the previous round. This damage increases to 4/6/8 at level 5/11/17. No save, no attack roll.

It's vaguely like witch bolt, but unique and cooler and more awesome. Actually it would be a companion spell to witch bolt, like ... agonizing bolt or something, lulz.

I cannot imagine a scenario in which I have 10 rounds, the best course of action is 6.5 avg damage a round, on a single target which I cannot change. Unless it's some kind of magical forcefield generator I have to overload with lightning damage and I have no other source of lightning damage. Oh wait, shocking grasp.

[Submortimer]

*snip*

I have to disagree with you: I'm sure that Witch Bolt is FULLY intended to be a combat spell, mostly because all it does, all it can ever do, is hit point damage.

If it had something, ANY other kind of rider, if it could do anything other than HP damage, I'd agree with you, but it doesn't, and it can't.

[JellyPooga]

I have to disagree with you: I'm sure that Witch Bolt is FULLY intended to be a combat spell, mostly because all it does, all it can ever do, is hit point damage.

And yet spam-casting Cantrips is in almost every combat circumstance a better option. So there's two conclusions we can draw; the first (and the one that most people seem to go with) is that Witch Bolt is simply a bad spell. It's a poorly designed combat spell, from the low DPR to the crippling limitations on it.

The second option is that it's not a combat spell at all and the DPR is an integral but incidental factor of the spells true function, which is to cause the victim to suffer damage in small but inevitable chunks.

In combat, this is not that useful. It can, however, cause concern, display power or simply be a source of pain. These things are not well represented by Conditions or rules at all and are rather more dependent on roleplaying the characteristics of the victim.

For example; A tough, hard-nosed Paladin exposed to Witch Bolt whilst in captivity is likely to clam up and endure the pain, but a weaselly little goblin lieutenant (with decent HP, despite being weaselly and little!) might scream for mercy and reveal the layout of his home caves or some of his Bosses plans, if only the pain would go away. Is this a direct function of Witch Bolt? No, it's a direct function of the Intimidation skill, but Witch Bolt is being used as both a means of torture and as a display of arcane power.

To the goblin with little understanding of magic, you're a mighty Wizard with unknowable powers. The Rogue with his knives, on the other hand, that guy he knows, maybe not specifically, but the pain he can inflict is something he might be used to. Being zapped with unending lightning, on the other hand, that's something new...

[Tanarii]

And yet spam-casting Cantrips is in almost every combat circumstance a better option.Prior to level 5, it does the same damage at longer range and against a (generally) better hit chance than Poison Spray. It does more damage than any other cantrip, by 2pts vs ones with a rider and one point vs the one without (firebolt). But at much closer range. Conversely, you can do MUCH more damage every following round than any of those if you hit, DPR wise, provided you can keep the target in range.

It's a passable spell for lower level (1-4) casters to use against very high HP BBEG. The auto-hit keeps it competitive DPR-wise vs a Cantrip even at levels 5-10, but at the cost of the spell slot makes it pretty sub-optimal.

[EvilAnagram]

Of course, I think we're forgetting that Tempest Clerics get some pretty good use out of this when they upcast it thanks to their channel divinity.

[Vogonjeltz]

As per the title: one of my players (it's his first time playing 5e, he's played a fair bit of 3.5) is running a 4th-level wizard who likes to use witch bolt - to the point that the "lightning leash" is one of his signature moves - and I'm finding myself breaking it almost every time he uses it because not doing so seems downright imbecilic.

Compared to most other 1st-level spells, an attack roll for 1d12 damage is absolutely pitiful; magic missile deals a higher average, and it never misses. I'm guessing the balance of the spell depends on being able to get a few rounds of guaranteed damage, but if he's fighting something with even slightly-below-average Intelligence, I think their first instinct would be to try to run away, which breaks the leash and ends the spell.

The thing is, I think witch bolt is a very cool spell, but as it is now, it's next to useless. To balance it out, how does this sound for a house rule:

"Until the end of the turn after you hit a target with this spell, the target cannot move outside the spell's range. On each turn after that, the target must succeed on a [not sure what ability? Dex probably] saving throw at the beginning of its turn or it cannot move outside the spell's range."

This guarantees you can deal 13 (2d12) damage so long as your concentration isn't broken, albeit over multiple rounds, and it also allows a wizard who's willing to dish a bit in combat to act as a battlefield controller without having to give up his damage-dealing capabilities.

Here's the thing: Witch Bolt outdamages the use of the spell slot for other 1st level spells if it gets even 2 rounds off, by a significantly wider margin if it goes for the full minute (65 average). Ensuring that full minute happens usually means using teamwork, targetting grappled or prone opponents (ones who can't get the full 30 feet away in a round).

So the time to cast a Witch Bolt is when your Fighter, Barbarian, Bardbarian, or Beastmaster Pet has grappled/restrained/knocked prone an enemy. Then they won't be able to get out of range the next round, ensuring you've done more damage than comparable options for that spell slot. Magic Missile only does 10.5 on average from that spell slot, which is 54.5 damage less than a full casting of Witch Bolt, indeed Witch Bolt outdamages it on average after only 2 rounds.


The damage sucks - it isn't any better than a cantrip.

True of all 1st level attack spells, but only after the Cantrips start dealing additional damage dice. Prior to that, at levels 1-4 Witch Bolt (and other low level attack spells) is strictly better.

The advantage that Witch Bolt has is damage efficiency for that spell slot. So if you're going to use a 1st level spell slot to cast a damage dealing spell, Witch Bolt has the highest damage potential. Of course, at higher levels that just means the lower level spell slots are best used for non-damage dealing spells like the utility and defensive spells, because Cantrips have defacto out valued them. Even then, however, Witch Bolt has the advantage of not requiring attack rolls after casting.

So, if you were an EK, you could cast Witch Bolt, move into close range, and grapple the opponent. Then continue dealing damage with Witch Bolt while dragging them to a cliff or something.

[mgshamster]

The only time I saw Witch Bolt in action was against a Shambling Mound.

Whoops.

[Giant2005]

Here's the thing: Witch Bolt outdamages the use of the spell slot for other 1st level spells if it gets even 2 rounds off, by a significantly wider margin if it goes for the full minute (65 average).

It doesn't really. Witch Bolt does an average of 1 damage more than Fire Bolt each round that it is used.
That means for it to equal the 5 damage that Magic Missile inflicts above a Fire Bolt, it would need to be maintained for 5 rounds. Anything more than 5 is profit.

[Tanarii]

It doesn't really. Witch Bolt does an average of 1 damage more than Fire Bolt each round that it is used.No it doesn't. It does an average of 2.925 more than Firebolt, assuming a 65% chance to hit with Firebolt. Which is probably a bit high at levels 1-4. Call it a 3.2 higher with a 60% chance to hit.

[rhouck]

Of course, I think we're forgetting that Tempest Clerics get some pretty good use out of this when they upcast it thanks to their channel divinity.

Except they have to multiclass or magic initiate to get it :smallfrown:

[krugaan]

The only time I saw Witch Bolt in action was against a Shambling Mound.

Whoops.

That would be a hell of an encounter at low levels:

One shambling mound and 4 swamp shamans (reskinned, I dunno, fighter/sorcs or something).

Shambling mound "shambles" into the party while the swamp shamans either witch bolt it or cantrip the party.

[Giant2005]

No it doesn't. It does an average of 2.925 more than Firebolt, assuming a 65% chance to hit with Firebolt. Which is probably a bit high at levels 1-4. Call it a 3.2 higher with a 60% chance to hit.

Actually, with a 65% chance to hit, the average damage of 1d10 is 3.85 and 1d12 is 4.55, so the difference in a practical situation is less than 1.

Although it did raise another consideration which might work in Witch Bolt's favor. If Witch Bolt is a crit, is the damage on subsequent turns doubled also? If so, there could certainly be value in combining it with something like Hold Person.

[Tanarii]

Actually, with a 65% chance to hit, the average damage of 1d10 is 3.85 and 1d12 is 4.55, so the difference in a practical situation is less than 1.The average damage of 100% chance to hit with Witchbolt for 1d12 is 6.5

[Giant2005]

The average damage of 100% chance to hit with Witchbolt for 1d12 is 6.5

Witchbolt isn't Magic Missile - it is subjected to an attack roll just like Firebolt is. Mathematically, it makes no difference to the average DPR if you are just subjected to a single attack roll, or a bunch of them. The average accuracy of a heap of 65% rolls is still the same 65% as if it was only a single roll.

[Tanarii]

Witchbolt isn't Magic Missile - it is subjected to an attack roll just like Firebolt is. Mathematically, it makes no difference to the average DPR if you are just subjected to a single attack roll, or a bunch of them. The average accuracy of a heap of 65% rolls is still the same 65% as if it was only a single roll.
You need to go reread the spell. It automatically does the 1d12 damage every round after the first.

[Giant2005]

You need to go reread the spell. It automatically does the 1d12 damage every round after the first.

I know that, it just doesn't change the calculation at all - that 1d12 damage still relies on an attack roll, you simply just don't have to roll it again.
Maybe this will help explain it better: The 1d12 damage on round two has a 65% chance of inflicting damage and a 35% chance of not inflicting damage. If the attack roll on round one succeeded (65% chance) then round 2's damage will go off just fine without other factors interfering.

[Tanarii]

I know that, it just doesn't change the calculation at all - that 1d12 damage still relies on an attack roll, you simply just don't have to roll it again.
Maybe this will help explain it better: The 1d12 damage on round two has a 65% chance of inflicting damage and a 35% chance of not inflicting damage. If the attack roll on round one succeeded (65% chance) then round 2's damage will go off just fine without other factors interfering.The second round has 100% chance of inflicting damage, not 65%. Only the first round requires an attack roll.

[Giant2005]

The second round has 100% chance of inflicting damage, not 65%. Only the first round requires an attack roll.

Maybe math will help you understand better.
The formula for two rounds of damage with Firebolt (with a 65% hit chance and ignoring crits because it will make the math less understandable for the point I am trying to convey) is the following: 0.65x5.5 + 0.65x5.5
The formula for two rounds of Witch Bolt is: 0.65(6.5+6.5)

[JellyPooga]

That would be a hell of an encounter at low levels:

One shambling mound and 4 swamp shamans (reskinned, I dunno, fighter/sorcs or something).

Shambling mound "shambles" into the party while the swamp shamans either witch bolt it or cantrip the party.

Or the creator of a Flesh Golem and his apprentices. The apprentices all Witch Bolt the Golem, for a(n effectively) regenerating meat-shield, while the Golem-crafter himself provides artillery support.

[georgie_leech]

Maybe math will help you understand better.
The formula for two rounds of damage with Firebolt (with a 65% hit chance and ignoring crits because it will make the math less understandable for the point I am trying to convey) is the following: 0.65x5.5 + 0.65x5.5
The formula for two rounds of Witch Bolt is: 0.65(6.5+6.5)

That's only true if on the round after missing with your Witch Bolt, the only action you could take would be to wail about your missing damage. Or are you suggesting that if the second Firebolt would automatically hit if the first one did, that it wouldn't be any better?

[Rysto]

Maybe math will help you understand better.
The formula for two rounds of damage with Firebolt (with a 65% hit chance and ignoring crits because it will make the math less understandable for the point I am trying to convey) is the following: 0.65x5.5 + 0.65x5.5
The formula for two rounds of Witch Bolt is: 0.65(6.5+6.5)

What this math is missing is that if the Witch Bolt fails, you can use a cantrip in the second round. So the Witch Bolt formula is more like: 0.65(6.5+6.5) + 0.35*0.65*5.5. Which honestly doesn't make a big difference, but it's something.

[Tanarii]

Maybe math will help you understand better.
The formula for two rounds of damage with Firebolt (with a 65% hit chance and ignoring crits because it will make the math less understandable for the point I am trying to convey) is the following: 0.65x5.5 + 0.65x5.5
The formula for two rounds of Witch Bolt is: 0.65(6.5+6.5)
The first round is irrelevant. We know the Witch Bolt hit. Only the second and later rounds matter. And Witch bolt has 100% chance to do 6.5 damage, vs Firebolts 4.5*HitChance.

Edit: okay I see what you're trying to do. Not calculate how many rounds it takes to catch up with Magic Missile after the first round when the Witch Bolt hit, but rather Calculate the total DPR of Magic Missile + some rounds of Firebolts, vs either Witch Bolt hit + subsequent rounds or Witch Bolt missed + subsequent rounds, and determine the point at which average DPR across multiple rounds is even.

In that case, we have, where H = hit chance and R = rounds:
3.5*3 + R*H*5.5
Vs
(H*6.5*(1+R)) + (1-H)*(H*5.5*R)

If we set an equivalency for the breakpoint and solve for R we get:
R = (2.5*3 - H*6.5)/(H*6.5 - (H^2)*5.5)

For H = .65 that's R = 3.3, and for H = .6 you get R = 3.4.

Witch Bolt is superior if you can use it 4 extra rounds, assuming you use Firebolts if you missed.

For a 1d8 cantrip, it changes to R under 3, or 3 extra rounds of Witch Bolt if you hit.

Either way, that's a lot of rounds you need to be able to follow up on a Witch Bolt hit to break even with Magic Missile.

[MaxWilson]

The best use of Witch Bolt is torturing Luke Skywalker.

[Carlobrand]

The best use of Witch Bolt is torturing Luke Skywalker.

I thought the best way to do that was to convince him you're his father.

[krugaan]

I thought the best way to do that was to convince him you're his father.

Embarassing family secrets are fleeting, but current-induced nerve damage is forever.

[Nicodiemus]

The other tertiary value of Witch Bolt is that it does guaranteed damage at a predictable interval.

Example: party stumbles upon a displacer beast. While fighting it, the wizard realizes that the beast snaps into focus every time it's hit. Wizard casts witch bolt and all other party members hold their action until after the wizard which effectively negates the beast's special defense. End result- cake walk for a low level party.

[PoeticDwarf]

I think something like "the target must suceed on a Con save or whatever or lose all movement speed for one turn" would be better. Still not overpowered.

Some spells are overpowered, others are terrible. But if the DM wants, he could always re-write the effects of the underpowered to make them more fun and interesting.

Or rewrite OP spells and make martials also more fun

[krugaan]

The other tertiary value of Witch Bolt is that it does guaranteed damage at a predictable interval.

Example: party stumbles upon a displacer beast. While fighting it, the wizard realizes that the beast snaps into focus every time it's hit. Wizard ?casts witch bolt and all other paymembers hold their action until after the wizard which effectively negates the beast's special defense. End result- cake walk for a low level party

The wizard could just have easily cast darkness, fog cloud, or web, which also work (no save, no save, str save) as opposed to witch bolt (attack roll at disadvantage).

Did you guys notice the part where the spell ends if you do any other action?

[Kane0]

Witch bolt wouldnt be a bad way to test condition chains if one were to try them.
For example first round is the inital damage, second round is damage plus stagger, third round is damage plus daze, fourth is damage plus stun amd so on.
Probably lower the damage a touch but leave the other restrictions in place.

[Citan]

Rather than reducing enemy speed, would it be better if they had to move further away to end the spell?

So, the spell still only has a 30ft range when you initially cast it, but the enemy has to move something like 60 or 90ft away from you to end it. It could even give you an idea of their direction and distance from you if they move out of your LoS but are still within range.


I imagine it's also a matter of utility - especially for a class like Warlock, with such limited spell slots.

I mean, are you really gaining that much by expending a precious spell slot to cast Witch bolt and then zap the enemy with it every turn, as opposed to just Eldritch Blasting them every turn? The latter requires no concentration, can't be stopped by the enemy moving 35ft from you and can target multiple enemies.

Not to mention that Hex + Eldritch Blast at that level would deal 2d10+2d6+6 (assuming 16 Cha). If the Warlock is 11th level, it would be 3d10+3d6+9. And, this damage would be repeatable every round. On different targets. For 24 hours.

Both are valid critics, and a reason why I would rather think that this spell is much more useful in the hands of a Sorcerer, which can spend a sorcery point to double the range. If you add Spell Sniper to that (AFB but it should apply since initial attack roll), it actually makes a pretty decent autohit control.
Not that I'm saying that it becomes strong enough to deserve a build around, far from it. Just that, if a Sorcerer learns the Distan Metamagic and/or Spell Sniper feat at very early levels (such as starting Human Variant), he can then consider learning Witch Bolt for the first half of his career.

There are also all the use-cases EvilAnagram pointed out.

I find that Witch Bolt is more effective if you can use different abilities. An Eldritch Knight or sorcerer, especially at lower levels, can cast Witch Bolt and Booming Blade in the same turn, creating a situation in which an enemy can either move and take damage or stay still and take damage. Providing two bad options was always the best way to tank in 4e, and it can be quite useful in 5e, too.

It's also helpful if you're a melee character with Sentinel since you can use your op-attack to keep it in place while the damage keeps stacking each turn.

If you're a ranged caster with a Sentinel ally, this is actually a solid choice. The damage is guaranteed, and your buddy can still make a full attack each round.

I agree that maintaining it with a bonus action is a great fix to the spell.
Sooo agreed with that fix, or reducing the die size BUT scaling both initial and sustained damage with cast level. :)

[Waffle_Iron]

My proposed fix for Witchbolt is to add the following to the "at higher level" text:

When cast from a 3rd level spell slot, the initial target must make a con save or suffer the grappled condition. This save may be taken each time Witchbolt deals damage.

When cast from a 6th level spell slot, replace grappled with restrained

When cast from a 9th level slot, replace grappled with stunned

[Segev]

Comparing witch bolt to magic missile...

Witch bolt requires an attack roll, and hits only a single target. Magic missile can be split up, and auto-hits.

At first level, witch bolt's average damage in the first round is 6.5, and ranges between 1 and 12. Magic missile has an average of 10.5, and ranges between 6 and 15.

Magic missile is a clearly superior spell to use in a first level slot, assuming you will only get one round of damage out of witch bolt. It's a little harder to gauge a fair comparison beyond that, because it costs your action each round to keep damaging with witch bolt. Certainly, the extra rounds' damage adds up, and saves spell slots compared to re-casting magic missile.

Using a 2nd level spell slot, Magic missile goes up to 14 average damage, with a cap at 20 and a minimum of 8. Witch bolt's first round of damage has a 13 average, which is pretty comparable, but still only has a minimum of 2. Its maximum of 24 is nice, comparatively, though. And, of course, it still does extra d12s later on, if you can keep the victim in range.

Third level spell slot and beyond, witch bolt has higher average round-of-casting damage than magic missile. It will always have a higher maximum, and always have a lower minimum, beyond level 1.

If you're comparing cantrip-spam, then witch bolt, against the one target, is not too shabby, being 1d12 automatic damage (if you hit with the first round and can keep them in range). At least at level 4 and lower. When cantrips get their automatic free damage upgrades at level 5, the 1d12 is just going to be worse than spending the action on a cantrip, making the witch bolt just not worthwhile as a way to spend your action in the follow-up rounds.



Honestly, given the boost in power to cantrips and first level spells...maybe witch bolt should do spell slot d12s EVERY round.

[Tanarii]

Magic missile is a clearly superior spell to use in a first level slot, assuming you will only get one round of damage out of witch bolt. It's a little harder to gauge a fair comparison beyond that, because it costs your action each round to keep damaging with witch bolt. Certainly, the extra rounds' damage adds up, and saves spell slots compared to re-casting magic missile. Which is why we compared MM + cantrips to Witch Bolt (attempted) + either ongoing witchbolt (on hit) or cantrips (on miss), to determine how many rounds of Witch Bolt followup are needed to be the equal of Magic Missile. The answer is 4 rounds of followup if the cantrip is Firebolt, and 3 rounds of followup if the cantrip is a 1d8 cantrip (Ray of Frost). On average.


If you're comparing cantrip-spam, then witch bolt, against the one target, is not too shabby, being 1d12 automatic damage (if you hit with the first round and can keep them in range). At least at level 4 and lower. When cantrips get their automatic free damage upgrades at level 5, the 1d12 is just going to be worse than spending the action on a cantrip, making the witch bolt just not worthwhile as a way to spend your action in the follow-up rounds.This is true, mostly because the first round requires an attack roll. DPR of witchbolt followup rounds automatic hit is approximate = level 5 cantrip damage if you take into account hit chance for the cantrips. But the first round is always sub-par for the Witch Bolt.

[Submortimer]

My proposed fix for Witchbolt is to add the following to the "at higher level" text:

When cast from a 3rd level spell slot, the initial target must make a con save or suffer the grappled condition. This save may be taken each time Witchbolt deals damage.

When cast from a 6th level spell slot, replace grappled with restrained

When cast from a 9th level slot, replace grappled with stunned

Now THAT there is an idea. That'd actually make it worthwhile to use at higher levels, without only being about damage.

[Vogonjeltz]

It doesn't really. Witch Bolt does an average of 1 damage more than Fire Bolt each round that it is used.
That means for it to equal the 5 damage that Magic Missile inflicts above a Fire Bolt, it would need to be maintained for 5 rounds. Anything more than 5 is profit.

In terms of what is a better use of a spell slot, Witch Bolt has a damage range of 1-120 (6.5/round ave, 65 ave for max rounds), whereas Magic Missile from that same slot has a range of 6-15 (10.5 average).

If Witch Bolt goes 2 rounds, it exceeds the average damage of magic missiles by 2 using the same slot.

If you can get it to go 5 rounds than it's exceeding not only the damage from the spell slot, but also the damage from the spell slot and 4 rounds of casting cantrips.

I think having a spell where it becomes quantitatively absolutely better than all alternative actions provided you can get through 5 rounds is perfectly fine, and easily achieved if you can line up the correct circumstances (i.e. a grappled, restrained, or paralyzed target).

Synergizes very well with teammates who can immobilize an opponent.

[Tanarii]

If Witch Bolt goes 2 rounds, it exceeds the average damage of magic missiles by 2 using the same slot.

If you can get it to go 5 rounds than it's exceeding not only the damage from the spell slot, but also the damage from the spell slot and 4 rounds of casting cantrips.No it doesn't. We crunched through all the math. If you assume Witchbolt followed by autodamage if it hit and cantrips if it missed, and contrast that with MM + cantrips, Witchbolt needs to go 4 extra rounds of automatic damage on a initial hit to be better than MM + Firebolt. And 3 extra rounds to be better than MM + Single Target 1d8 damage cantrip.

I can't see getting even 3 extra rounds out of it being that common. Target should generally either be dead by then, or have left range. As I said earlier, might work as a BBEG-killer for a Sorc at low levels.

[Segev]

In terms of what is a better use of a spell slot, Witch Bolt has a damage range of 1-120 (6.5/round ave, 65 ave for max rounds), whereas Magic Missile from that same slot has a range of 6-15 (10.5 average).

If Witch Bolt goes 2 rounds, it exceeds the average damage of magic missiles by 2 using the same slot.

If you can get it to go 5 rounds than it's exceeding not only the damage from the spell slot, but also the damage from the spell slot and 4 rounds of casting cantrips.

I think having a spell where it becomes quantitatively absolutely better than all alternative actions provided you can get through 5 rounds is perfectly fine, and easily achieved if you can line up the correct circumstances (i.e. a grappled, restrained, or paralyzed target).

Synergizes very well with teammates who can immobilize an opponent.

The trouble is that it takes your action each round, as well. Compare it to spamming a cantrip, and past level 4 it doesn't hold up as well. Even a simple fire bolt is 2d8 at level 5.

[Tanarii]

One thing that occurred to me is that Witch Bolt seems like the poster child for actually working with True Strike.

Let's see if this works? Sorc has two spells left, a level 1 slot and something else. He quickens the other spell, then cast True Strike on his target. Then next round, he cast's Witch Bolt with advantage. Hit chance goes up to 88%. Using my formula from before, the number of rounds needed to beat 1 Cantrip (ie instead of True Strike) + MM + cantrips is now:
H*5.5 + 3.5*3 + R*H*5.5 Vs (A*6.5*(1+R)) + (1-A)*(H*5.5*R)
Or R > (H*5.5 - A*6.5 + 3.5*3) / (A*6.5 - A*H*5.5)
Or R > 3.2, @ H = .65, A = .88

So nope, still 4 rounds for True Strike + Witch Bolt > Cantrip + MM + cantrip spam. Unless you can get the True Strike off instead of not being able to cast a cantrip.

[Segev]

Isn't true strike+witch bolt also two 1st level slots? Or is true strike a cantrip in 5e?

[Tanarii]

Isn't true strike+witch bolt also two 1st level slots? Or is true strike a cantrip in 5e?It's a cantrip. One generally consider as useless, if not MORE useless, than Witch Bolt.

[Kane0]

True strike is a cantrip, and a rarely used one at that. It has some limitations much like Witch Bolt that makes it difficult to use well (also blade ward).

[Malifice]

We need a FAQ/ Errata on this.

Its gotta be [spell level x d12 per round]. I'm 100 percent positive this is a typo.

It brings the spell up from a 'never take, ever' selection to 'flavorful but there are better options' selection.

Its how I read it in my own campaign anyway, even if you want to call it a house rule.

[Waffle_Iron]

Now THAT there is an idea. That'd actually make it worthwhile to use at higher levels, without only being about damage.

Thanks! I appreciate that. :)

[Vogonjeltz]

No it doesn't. We crunched through all the math. If you assume Witchbolt followed by autodamage if it hit and cantrips if it missed, and contrast that with MM + cantrips, Witchbolt needs to go 4 extra rounds of automatic damage on a initial hit to be better than MM + Firebolt. And 3 extra rounds to be better than MM + Single Target 1d8 damage cantrip.

I can't see getting even 3 extra rounds out of it being that common. Target should generally either be dead by then, or have left range. As I said earlier, might work as a BBEG-killer for a Sorc at low levels.

Yes, I said that in the second line. The question I'm answering in the first line is: Which spell outputs more damage from the spell slot.

Within the limits of the potential value from the slot, Witch Bolt has a higher potential value. And it has the added value of not requiring the Cast a Spell action after that point (just an Action) nor an attack roll (so disadvantage can't be imposed once it's landed).


The trouble is that it takes your action each round, as well. Compare it to spamming a cantrip, and past level 4 it doesn't hold up as well. Even a simple fire bolt is 2d8 at level 5.

True, I did caveat (in my initial post) that no 1st level damage spell holds up vs Cantrips once you hit higher levels (i.e. 5+)

I'd say the action isn't as big a deal, and it has the advantage of not requiring an attack roll after the initial casting, so while Disadvantage could be imposed on the Firebolt caster for successive casts (reducing the damage dealt) Witch Bolt would only require a one-time advantage gain to drastically improve the average damage dealt per casting.

The trick is finding the right circumstances under which to initiate the spell and maintaining the range. Spell sniper should be sufficient to prevent an opponent from just waltzing out of range. (Firebolt is 2d10 though, Ray of Frost is 2d8.)

[Tanarii]

Yes, I said that in the second line. The question I'm answering in the first line is: Which spell outputs more damage from the spell slot.The "first line" about MM vs Witchbolt is meaningless. Because you have to assume that instead of doing automatic Witchbolt damage (if they hit), they do something else that does damage instead.

If you want to compare output damage from the slot, you have to assume they'll be doing something to do damage if they weren't automatically using Witchbolt.

Unless you want to assume the character doesn't have any damaging cantrips with 30ft range, or a feasible ranged attack. (Shocking Grasp as only damaging cantrip + low Dex?)

[NNescio]

... In combat, this is not that useful. It can, however, cause concern, display power or simply be a source of pain. These things are not well represented by Conditions or rules at all and are rather more dependent on roleplaying the characteristics of the victim.

For example; A tough, hard-nosed Paladin exposed to Witch Bolt whilst in captivity is likely to clam up and endure the pain, but a weaselly little goblin lieutenant (with decent HP, despite being weaselly and little!) might scream for mercy and reveal the layout of his home caves or some of his Bosses plans, if only the pain would go away. Is this a direct function of Witch Bolt? No, it's a direct function of the Intimidation skill, but Witch Bolt is being used as both a means of torture and as a display of arcane power.

To the goblin with little understanding of magic, you're a mighty Wizard with unknowable powers. The Rogue with his knives, on the other hand, that guy he knows, maybe not specifically, but the pain he can inflict is something he might be used to. Being zapped with unending lightning, on the other hand, that's something new...

If you already have your opponent/guinea pig/'torture' target at your mercy (and, presumably, tied-up and manacled, plus gagged if he's a spellcaster), wouldn't it be far more efficient to just Shocking Grasp or Fire Bolt them instead? I mean, sure, strictly speaking per RAW you have a chance of missing (you only get advantage), but most DMs will houserule that to be autohit anyway (hitting a bound opponent is an out-of-combat trivial task), and you get advantage regardless (and the opportunity to strip them of their armor) even if your DM is a stickler for RAW. Plus you get, like, what, infinite shots so long as you have time to spare?

Or you could, well, soil their pants (and the gag in the mouth) with Prestidigitation. Plus Minor Illusion can also help with 'enhanced interrogation' techniques. Mage Hand as well. Or, I dunno, ritual-cast Unseen Servant. All these options don't cost spell slots.

The only point Witch Bolt has in its favor for enhanced interrogation purposes is the coolness factor, since it looks like Force Lightning. So, more like a BBEG or minion spell instead.

Now, Witch Bolt can also be used creatively on creatures which regenerate (or otherwise gain some benefit) from lightning damage, but again, the BBEG and his minions are the ones more likely to have such creatures on their side.

[TentacleSurpris]

TLDR the rest of the thread.

Yes, it's an awful spell.

[JellyPooga]

Here's a thought; a Sorcerer casts Witch Bolt for 1d12 damage, plus 1d12 per turn after. Notably, this is not casting a spell, but rather using your action to deal free damage, so long as you maintain concentration and your target neither exits the range or enters full cover.

So, using Quicken metamagic, a Sorcerer can cast a spell as a Bonus Action and still use his Action to deal the "free" 1d12 without having to worry about the restriction of being limited to Cantrips when casting spells as Bonus Actions.

Now, the counter argument to this is that a Cantrip does better damage than 1d12. A Cantrip will also require an attack roll or saving throw to avoid. Witch Bolt does not. Against a particularly hard to hit opponent, the ongoing damage assuming the initial attack hits is reliable HP attrition, whilst a Cantrip may well do nothing at all, despite the higher damage potential.

Is this worth a 1st level slot and your concentration for the duration? I'll say it again; it's a very situation dependent spell, I think, but it has its place.

[Tanarii]

So, using Quicken metamagic, a Sorcerer can cast a spell as a Bonus Action and still use his Action to deal the "free" 1d12 without having to worry about the restriction of being limited to Cantrips when casting spells as Bonus Actions.This is absolutely no different from comparing MM (or other first level spell) + followup cantrips to Witch Bolt. It adds nothing to the equation that wasn't already being taken into account.

And since Witch Bolt already uses your concentration, you also can't take advantage of the "not casting a spell" on that front either.

[krugaan]

Here's a thought; a Sorcerer casts Witch Bolt for 1d12 damage, plus 1d12 per turn after. Notably, this is not casting a spell, but rather using your action to deal free damage, so long as you maintain concentration and your target neither exits the range or enters full cover.

So, using Quicken metamagic, a Sorcerer can cast a spell as a Bonus Action and still use his Action to deal the "free" 1d12 without having to worry about the restriction of being limited to Cantrips when casting spells as Bonus Actions.

Now, the counter argument to this is that a Cantrip does better damage than 1d12. A Cantrip will also require an attack roll or saving throw to avoid. Witch Bolt does not. Against a particularly hard to hit opponent, the ongoing damage assuming the initial attack hits is reliable HP attrition, whilst a Cantrip may well do nothing at all, despite the higher damage potential.

Is this worth a 1st level slot and your concentration for the duration? I'll say it again; it's a very situation dependent spell, I think, but it has its place.

If, by some miracle, the party lands Contagion on a BBEG and slimy dooms it, but somehow can't get range on it or something...

then maybe. otherwise ... no.

[Vogonjeltz]

The "first line" about MM vs Witchbolt is meaningless. Because you have to assume that instead of doing automatic Witchbolt damage (if they hit), they do something else that does damage instead.

If you want to compare output damage from the slot, you have to assume they'll be doing something to do damage if they weren't automatically using Witchbolt.

Unless you want to assume the character doesn't have any damaging cantrips with 30ft range, or a feasible ranged attack. (Shocking Grasp as only damaging cantrip + low Dex?)

It's not meaningless, it helps in determining what the more valuable use of a spell slot is. That's crucial when spell slots are a limited commodity.

One possibility for comparison where a cantrip is an assumed alternative would be if you can get advantage, but are later subject to disadvantage. The later disadvantage substantially devalues the attacks by cantrip, but has no impact at all on the Witch Bolt casting.

[Malifice]

Clearly its a typo and the spell is intended to do 1d12 per slot level on the 1st and subsequent rounds.

How are people not seeing this?

[Giant2005]

Clearly its a typo and the spell is intended to do 1d12 per slot level on the 1st and subsequent rounds.

How are people not seeing this?

Because the word "initial" in there has to be intentional. Extra words just don't pop up by accident.
Plus adding scaling damage to the other rounds would make it one of the most powerful single target spells in the game - that seems a bit much for level 1.

[Malifice]

Because the word "initial" in there has to be intentional. Extra words just don't pop up by accident.

Thats exactly what a typo is.


Plus adding scaling damage to the other rounds would make it one of the most powerful single target spells in the game - that seems a bit much for level 1.

Rubbish mate. Cast as a 3rd level slot by a Wizard it deals 3d12 damage per round (20 odd points of damage). It requires an attack roll or its a wasted slot, and uses your one concentration slot, and can be ended by your target by simply walking away.

Compared to simply using cantrips for 2d10 damage per round (11 points) its a terrible use of your third level slot.

Its actually balanced (a but weak still, but sitationally useful) if you scale both the initial and secondary damage.

[Giant2005]

Thats exactly what a typo is.
No.
A typo is an accident. It is an extra letter being placed in, or a misspelled word. It can even extend to a copy/paste error.
Witchbolt doesn't fit the criteria for any of that. It has a unique clause that could not have been the result of erroneous copy/pasting, and the extra clause is implemented in a grammatically correct manner.
Sure it is possible to argue that somehow they chose to add that clause in there without the influence of the slightest bit of brain function, but that argument would be made from a position of such extreme weakness that it is hard to consider it an argument at all.


Cast as a 3rd level slot by a Wizard it deals 3d12 damage per round (20 odd points of damage).
Cast it with an X level slot and it does more single target damage than any other spell of X level, that is capable of repeating its damage over multiple rounds.
The fact that I can make that statement in a general sense without having to even specify a level is enough to prove the fact that your homebrew would be too powerful for a first level spell.

[RickAllison]

No.
A typo is an accident. It is an extra letter being placed in, or a misspelled word. It can even extend to a copy/paste error.
Witchbolt doesn't fit the criteria for any of that. It has a unique clause that could not have been the result of erroneous copy/pasting, and the extra clause is implemented in a grammatically correct manner.
Sure it is possible to argue that somehow they chose to add that clause in there without the influence of the slightest bit of brain function, but that argument would be made from a position of such extreme weakness that it is hard to consider it an argument at all.


Cast it with an X level slot and it does more single target damage than any other spell of X level, that is capable of repeating its damage over multiple rounds.
The fact that I can make that statement in a general sense without having to even specify a level is enough to prove the fact that your homebrew would be too powerful for a first level spell.

And where are your comparisons? Let's see how it compares to a few different ones:

Call Lightning. Better range (+), AoE (+), only a bonus action (+), relies on a save for half (-), not restricted to one enemy (+), requires being outdoors (-), scales at Xd10 (-). Overall, much better, but restricting.

Flaming Sphere. Xd6 damage (--), bonus action (+), not restricted to one enemy (+), better range (+). If the creature can be prevented from escaping, Witch Bolt trounces this. This is one of the weaker spells like this, however, and the benefit of not being wasted when the enemy moves 30 ft away balances out.

Bigby's/Arcane Hand. 4d8+(X-5)d8 damage (- at every level), bonus action, not restricted to one enemy (+), more control options (+), better range (+).

From what I'm seeing, it would do better at damage than similar spells, but be worse in everything else. I would love some counterexamples of how Malifice's (I believe it was his) house-rule is imbalanced. I disagree with his claim that it is a typo, but I do think it could use a buff.

[Tanarii]

It's not meaningless, it helps in determining what the more valuable use of a spell slot is. That's crucial when spell slots are a limited commodity.Its meaningless because it doesn't accurately assess the value of the slot. It leaves out opportunity cost.


One possibility for comparison where a cantrip is an assumed alternative would be if you can get advantage, but are later subject to disadvantage. The later disadvantage substantially devalues the attacks by cantrip, but has no impact at all on the Witch Bolt casting.Which is an adjusted opportunity cost for using MM + Cantrip. But if you don't consider the effect of the opportunity cost at all, you have an meaningless comparison.

[Malifice]

No.
A typo is an accident. It is an extra letter being placed in, or a misspelled word. It can even extend to a copy/paste error.
Witchbolt doesn't fit the criteria for any of that. It has a unique clause that could not have been the result of erroneous copy/pasting, and the extra clause is implemented in a grammatically correct manner.
Sure it is possible to argue that somehow they chose to add that clause in there without the influence of the slightest bit of brain function, but that argument would be made from a position of such extreme weakness that it is hard to consider it an argument at all.

Yeah nah.


Cast it with an X level slot and it does more single target damage than any other spell of X level, that is capable of repeating its damage over multiple rounds.
The fact that I can make that statement in a general sense without having to even specify a level is enough to prove the fact that your homebrew would be too powerful for a first level spell.

Youre wrong.

At 1st level it deals 1d12 on a hit, and 1d12 every round thereafter. It requires an attack roll (or the whole thing is ruined) AND your concentration slot AND they can walk 60' and the spell ends.

By comparison hit them with a firebolt, and keep spamming it. It deals 1d10 damage per round (requiring an attack roll) with a better range. Its a 1 point (on average) damage bump from using witchbolt over spamming a cantrip.

Compared to every other option at 1st level, its not worth it. An extra 1 point of damage for a round or two (assuming it hits).

As a 2nd level spell? 2d12 (attack roll, concentration, poor range, can move to stop it) against the 6d6 damage of scorching ray? You would have to maintain the spell for three rounds just to catch up to (Scorching ray + spamming firebolt), and scorching ray has a longer range, can target multiple creatures, doesnt use up concentration and cant be walked away from to stop.

As 3rd level as opposed to (fireball+spamming 2d10 damage firebolts)? Ignoring the fact that the Fireball doesnt use up your concentration slot, and targets multiple creatures, the single target damage from the witchbolt would need to be sustained for about 5 rounds to catch up to the fireball+firebolts (around 3 rounds if the target makes its save vs the fireball).

The enemy can just clobber you at any stage to end concentration, or walk away.

At no level does it stand out as 'OMG wow'. Even if the damage is spell levexD12 in following rounds, it becomes a situationally useful but not OP spell, and it is in no way unbalanced compared to other choices at that level.

If Im a 9th level caster, and Im expending my 'big boom' 5th level slot to do 5d12 (30 odd) damage per round (if I hit), and giving up my concentration slot to do it (and it can be ended at any time by me taking damage or the critter simply walking away), thats not a good deal for me.

Youre forgetting the 1d12 damage per round is pointless. Your cantrips are dealing up to 4 times that damage (more if youre a warlock). No-one would ever concentrate on that spell after 2nd level ever.

Give me an example where its OP as opposed to simply casting an offensive spell and spamming attack cantrips in the rounds afterwards. It generally catches up after about 3 rounds of you using your action to maintain it (as long as you dont get hit or flub concentration and the crtter doesnt simply move outisde the 60' range).

My critters that are affected by it tend to clobber the Palpatine like guy thats zapping them. Upping the damage to xd12 (as its supposed to me IMO) makes the spell situationally useful and not a total waste of space in the PHB.

[Citan]

Thats exactly what a typo is.



Rubbish mate. Cast as a 3rd level slot by a Wizard it deals 3d12 damage per round (20 odd points of damage). It requires an attack roll or its a wasted slot, and uses your one concentration slot, and can be ended by your target by simply walking away.

Compared to simply using cantrips for 2d10 damage per round (11 points) its a terrible use of your third level slot.

Its actually balanced (a but weak still, but sitationally useful) if you scale both the initial and secondary damage.
(Hi all ;))

Nop, it's not a terrible use of your third level slot, especially because it requires an attack roll only for your first attack.
Witch Bolt is on Wizard (EK, AT), Sorcerer and Warlock list.
While most of these classes have ways to get repeated advantage on their attack roll (archetype features for AT/EK, use of Darkness+Darkvision or Invisibility for Warlock) this way of getting advantage still uses either limited resource or strategy.

Having to ensure you hit only one time is a great deal in many situations. Especially if sustained AUTO damage scales.
The tough break is that is still uses an action so for most of the classes it would still be a situational spell.

For a Sorcerer though, it would become one of best spells: cast it with Twin metamagic to affect two creatures, or cast it with Extended to last double time, then profit. Especially with a small dip in Rogue to get Cunning Action and hide or move around to ensure the spell sticks. ;)
One of the best uses of spell slot for them imo.

[Malifice]

Nop, it's not a terrible use of your third level slot, especially because it requires an attack roll only for your first attack.

That makes it mechanically worse! It becomes hit or miss, all or nothing.

I could instead expend my 3rd level spell slot to fireball something, dealing more damage guaranteed, and targetting multiple critters at longer range, and not costing me my concentration slot.


For a Sorcerer though, it would become one of best spells: cast it with Twin metamagic to affect two creatures, or cast it with Extended to last double time, then profit. Especially with a small dip in Rogue to get Cunning Action and hide or move around to ensure the spell sticks. ;)

How are you hiding with glowing bolts of blue energy lancing from your hands to your target?

Extend spell does nothing to witchbolt. Its a concentration spell.

Twin spell does its normal thing, but so what? Its no different from twinning any other spell.

[Giant2005]

From what I'm seeing, it would do better at damage than similar spells, but be worse in everything else.

That is the point.
The game is balanced around the long-duration damage spells doing less damage than the instant damage spells. Increasing the damage of a long-duration spell to that point devalues the instant damage spells by comparison. Who would ever cast Otiluke's Freezing Sphere again if you can get more damage simply by upcasting Witch Bolt to the same level spell slot and rather get the increased damage once, you get it for as many rounds as it takes to win?
The instant damage spells would simply become too uneconomical.


Youre wrong.
If I am wrong, then show me I am wrong. Tell me about this mythical, ongoing damage spell that does more damage when cast in spellslot X than your version of Witch Bolt would do when cast in spellslot X.
The fact that you chose to cite a bunch of much less economically feasible instant damage spells as counterpoints, rather than address the actual point I made; suggests that you did look for examples but there were none to be found. So no, I'm not wrong and your own research backed that up.

[Zalabim]

The spells it would be comparing with would be:
Cloud of Daggers (4d4+2d4 per level Action, stationary)10 vs 2d12 = 13
Flaming Sphere (2d6+1d6 per level Action+Bonus actions) 7 vs 2d12 = 13
Heat Metal (2d8+1d8 per level Action + Bonus actions) 9 vs 2d12 = 13
Moonbeam (2d10+1d10 per level Action + Actions to follow) 11 vs 2d12 = 13
Spiritual Weapon (1d8+stat +1d8 per two levels Bonus actions) 9.5 vs 2d12 = 13
Call Lighting (3d10+1d10 per level Action + Actions) 16.5 vs 3d12 = 19.5
Vampiric Touch (3d6+1d6 per level Action + Actions) 10.5 vs 3d12 = 19.5
Wall of Fire (5d8+1d8 per level Action, wall) 22.5 vs 4d12 = 26
Bigby's Hand (4d8+2d8 per level Action + bonus actions) 18 vs 5d12 = 32.5
Insect Plague (4d10+1d10 per level Action, stationary) 22 vs 5d12 = 32.5
Cloudkill (5d8+1d8 per level Action, floating cloud) 22.5 vs 5d12 = 32.5
Wall of Ice (10d6/5d6 +2d6/1d6 per level Action, wall) 35/17.5 vs 6d12 = 39
Mordenkainen's Sword (3d10 Action + bonus actions, really just awful) 16.5 vs 7d12 = 45.5
Incendiary Cloud (10d8 Action, floating cloud) 45 vs 8d12 = 52

I think if you leave all the rest of the ****tiness of the spell as it is, allowing it to have 1d12 per level scaling for both its damage packets would be within the realm of balance. It would probably still be a trap spell with its 30' range, absolute range and cover limit, single target, concentration, and action each turn requirements. Oh, with the most lenient level 10+ evoker vs magic missile and firebolt (level 11 - level 17)
11.5 vs 25.5 and 21.5-27
18 vs 34 and 21.5-27
24.5 vs 42.5 and 21.5-27
31 vs 51 and 21.5-27
37.5 vs 59.5 and 21.5-27
44 vs 68 and 21.5-27
50.5 vs 76.5 and 21.5-27
57 vs 85 and 21.5-27
63.5 vs 93.5 and 21.5-27
Plugging in some numbers to see break points, and I'd say giving full scaling to Witch Bolt would place it among the strongest damaging spells of its rather narrow type (single target, concentration, efficient), based on generally reaching break even with burst damage on round 2 or 3. A few of the other similar spells above could combine with cantrips at the right levels to top it, assuming the enemy's positioning cooperates (which is necessary to some degree for Witch Bolt as well). And of course, it'd still often suck for warlocks.

Now I think I've devoted entirely too much space to Witch Bolt. How do we fix Mordenkainen's Sword?

[Giant2005]

How do we fix Mordenkainen's Sword?

In addition to its usual bonus action attack, give the user the ability to attack with it with their action too, via the attack action.

[Zalabim]

In addition to its usual bonus action attack, give the user the ability to attack with it with their action too, via the attack action.

I'm not sure that cuts it, since the spell only does as much damage as a cantrip in the first place. You'd have to have extra attack and/or allow the primary attacks with the weapon to add an ability modifier to damage. I can't believe it also only moves 20 feet on an activation.

[Giant2005]

I'm not sure that cuts it, since the spell only does as much damage as a cantrip in the first place. You'd have to have extra attack and/or allow the primary attacks with the weapon to add an ability modifier to damage. I can't believe it also only moves 20 feet on an activation.

That is kind of what I meant. If you are using it with the attack action, then all usual contingencies related to the attack action (+Str/Dexmod to damage, more than one attack if you have Extra Attack, attack/damage riders taking full effect etc.) would apply. Even then it would only serve niche builds, but at least then it would have a use beyond being the spell that gives everyone the right to make fun of Mordenkainen.

[Citan]

That makes it mechanically worse! It becomes hit or miss, all or nothing.

I could instead expend my 3rd level spell slot to fireball something, dealing more damage guaranteed, and targetting multiple critters at longer range, and not costing me my concentration slot.



How are you hiding with glowing bolts of blue energy lancing from your hands to your target?

Extend spell does nothing to witchbolt. Its a concentration spell.

Twin spell does its normal thing, but so what? Its no different from twinning any other spell.
Ok so you're so stuck on your will of "being right" that you didn't even try to understand what I said after all.

First, no, that makes it mechanically better. Because you need only one successful attack on the first round to then get damage for all the subsequent rounds. For a Sorcerer in a usual party (Bard, Cleric) it would not make much difference anyways because he can get some Help, Bless or whatever else.
For a solo character, it makes it much better to use a limited resource such as Lucky feat on. And more generally it means you have to get smart only one round to get advantage one way or another, then you can focus on movement and defense.

Second, I don't see why Extend wouldn't work with Witch Bolt just because it's concentration. It's up to 1 mn after all. Waiting for an explanation here. :) You're right on hiding part though, I forgot the "blue streak" part.

Third, I note you didn't say anything about Twin because it works against you, because you know like me that it makes the spell much much better.

But well, to each his opinion. :)

[Mellack]

I cannot see extend mattering because fights don't last more than 10 rounds. A minute is already more than long enough.

[Tanarii]

I cannot see extend mattering because fights don't last more than 10 rounds. A minute is already more than long enough.
Especially given you can't change targets.

If you could change targets every round, it'd be a much cooler spell.

[NNescio]

First, no, that makes it mechanically better. Because you need only one successful attack on the first round to then get damage for all the subsequent rounds. For a Sorcerer in a usual party (Bard, Cleric) it would not make much difference anyways because he can get some Help, Bless or whatever else.
For a solo character, it makes it much better to use a limited resource such as Lucky feat on. And more generally it means you have to get smart only one round to get advantage one way or another, then you can focus on movement and defense.

Witch Bolt requires you to spend your action each round to repeat the damage, otherwise it just ends automatically. So no, you can't really focus on movement and defense either (at least, not any more so than you could if you were spending your actions on throwing cantrips or other spells instead). I admit it is an attractive DPR spell against a single 'big-ticket' target if we houserule the sustained damage to auto-scale and you have teammates to help you tie up your target, but for a solo character the spell is just plain awful as your target can just walk out of the range of your spell (dashing, if you blew a Sorc point on distant spell), or just hit you instead. Cunning action via a rogue dip doesn't help either. 30/60 ft range is too limiting.



Second, I don't see why Extend wouldn't work with Witch Bolt just because it's concentration. It's up to 1 mn after all. Waiting for an explanation here. :) You're right on hiding part though, I forgot the "blue streak" part.

Most combats don't last beyond 10 rounds (especially not against a single target), unless stealth shenanigans are involved. And stealth isn't an option with the glowing arc of lightning painting a bullseye on you, especially when you have to remain within 30 ft of your target (can't use distant spell this time).



Third, I note you didn't say anything about Twin because it works against you, because you know like me that it makes the spell much much better. ...

You have enough problems maintaining the spell on a single target. Two targets just make it even harder (especially since you can't Distant spell now), and failing a single concentration check will end the spell on both of your targets.

Good luck trying to dance within 30 ft of both targets while preventing them from just walking out. And in the unlikely event that you do succeed, both of them will just gang up on you instead.

[Citan]

Witch Bolt requires you to spend your action each round to repeat the damage, otherwise it just ends automatically. So no, you can't really focus on movement and defense either (at least, not any more so than you could if you were spending your actions on throwing cantrips or other spells instead). I admit it is an attractive DPR spell against a single 'big-ticket' target if we houserule the sustained damage to auto-scale and you have teammates to help you tie up your target, but for a solo character the spell is just plain awful as your target can just walk out of the range of your spell (dashing, if you blew a Sorc point on distant spell), or just hit you instead. Cunning action via a rogue dip doesn't help either. 30/60 ft range is too limiting.

Most combats don't last beyond 10 rounds (especially not against a single target), unless stealth shenanigans are involved. And stealth isn't an option with the glowing arc of lightning painting a bullseye on you, especially when you have to remain within 30 ft of your target (can't use distant spell this time).

You have enough problems maintaining the spell on a single target. Two targets just make it even harder (especially since you can't Distant spell now), and failing a single concentration check will end the spell on both of your targets.

Good luck trying to dance within 30 ft of both targets while preventing them from just walking out. And in the unlikely event that you do succeed, both of them will just gang up on you instead.

You make very valid points. I was more considering the use of Twin within a party, to get help from others to restrain them. ;)
Although you could also grapple the target of its Witch Bolt, but a standard Sorcerer would be too frail for that. Would work very well on an Eldricht Knight though, and would work extremely well on a multiclass Eldricht Knight / Sorcerer (could handle 2 grappled enemies). ^^ Although it would be just for the fun of it, because it would be better to keep one hand free...

[NNescio]

You make very valid points. I was more considering the use of Twin within a party, to get help from others to restrain them. ;)
Although you could also grapple the target of its Witch Bolt, but a standard Sorcerer would be too frail for that. Would work very well on an Eldricht Knight though, ...

......

(Alright, we're going to assume that Malifice's auto-scaling houserule is in effect for WB, because otherwise the piddly 1d12 damage would be next to useless for DPR. With that said:)

Witch Bolt is even worse for an Eldritch Knight, because instead of just giving up cantrip DPR, you're giving up all your attacks as a fighter instead. Fighter DPR is much higher, because you get to add your str (or dex) mod per attack, and weapon damage dice can go up to as high as 2d6. Throw in Great Weapon Master (or Sharpshooter), and it's not even a contest. And EKs can Haste as well for another attack, an option denied to them if they choose to blow their concentration on WB instead.

Also, the initial attack roll on WB is going to be based on a non-primary stat, unless you value your spellcasting modifier over Strength or Dex for some reason (bad idea).

Sure, EB is ranged, but 30 ft might as well be melee range, especially if you need to prevent your target from running away.

Generally as an Eldritch Knight you would want to prioritize buff and mobility spells (Haste pulls double duty here), followed by AoEs and CCs, especially ones that still have effects even if your target saves (or even better, if they offer no save at all). Single-target damage spells are a bad idea, especially if the spell is a sustained channel effect instead of a one-action nuke. Magic Missile being a possible exception as it auto-hits and can be used to kill weakened priority targets.

And Witch Bolt? It eats up your concentration, so you can't buff yourself up.


and would work extremely well on a multiclass Eldricht Knight / Sorcerer (could handle 2 grappled enemies). ^^ Although it would be just for the fun of it, because it would be better to keep one hand free...

EK is MAD enough without throwing Sorcerer into the mix (remember, you need to put points into Charisma to begin with before you can even multiclass into Sorc). And to pull off that combo, you would need to a) cast Witch bolt within range of both targets b) blow an action surge c) move towards one of your targets and succeed on a grapple roll c) drag your first target at half movement to your second target d) succeed on another grapple roll on your second target. e) make sure they don't break out somehow on subsequent turns or blow your concentration by doubleteaming you. A tall order indeed.

I do suppose you can grapple your first target, wait a round (while smacking him with your free hand weapon), and then sheathe your weapon before Witch Bolting him and your second target, followed by grappling the second guy, but your first WB attack roll is going to be at disadvantage unless you can grapple from 10 ft away, and you're wasting one round of Fighter DPR regardless.

I admit, if all that do happen it would be very cool combo with the potential to deal a lot of damage (albeit divided to two targets, and houseruling scaling WB), but that's a lot of ifs. Also to make it worthwhile you probably need to cast it on two beefy targets (because the excess damage over the rounds would be mostly wasted on squishy ones), who are probably the sort that would a)resist grapples and b) wreck your **** in melee range. You're better off Twinning Haste instead.

[Pope Scarface]

Witch Bolt seems like a pretty cool spell trap though. 1d12 damage every turn as you try to pick the lock/disable the trap/etc.

[Segev]

Witch Bolt seems like a pretty cool spell trap though. 1d12 damage every turn as you try to pick the lock/disable the trap/etc.

Maybe. It relies heavily on ignorance AND stubbornness AND a lack of a willingness to try again, though. If they move 30 feet away, it ends. Reasons they might move include recognizing the spell or simply running from the ongoing lightning bolt. Most thieves who aren't so frightened off that they just keep running out of the whole dungeon are probably at least going to tentatively and carefully reach back to see if the spark resumes. And, when it doesn't, edge closer, testing carefully, until they're back up at the lock and picking it happily since the spell ended.

[ZenBear]

I'm finding myself breaking it almost every time he uses it because not doing so seems downright imbecilic...
if he's fighting something with even slightly-below-average Intelligence, I think their first instinct would be to try to run away, which breaks the leash and ends the spell.

Why does everyone have a working knowledge of arcane spells? You're mixing DM knowledge with NPC knowledge, and that's just bad DMing.

That being said, Witch Bolt is a terrible spell and deserves a buff. I like the idea of giving it a slow effect (target moves at half speed for the duration) and casting with higher slots increases the damage every round, not just the initial cast.

[Boccobsblog]

I have to agree with OP. I thought it was really cool, until I started to use it. I never get more than one hit with it, never he sustained Emperor Palpatine shizz I was hoping for.

[Tanarii]

Why does everyone have a working knowledge of arcane spells? You're mixing DM knowledge with NPC knowledge, and that's just bad DMing.I dunno if I'd go that far, but if you assume that NPCs/monsters will automatically run the hell away from lightning (or magical attacks in general) it certainly makes life a lot easier for groups with magical casters in them. No more killing half the enemies to force a morale check, just cast a Firebolt or Ray of Frost!

[ZenBear]

I dunno if I'd go that far, but if you assume that NPCs/monsters will automatically run the hell away from lightning (or magical attacks in general) it certainly makes life a lot easier for groups with magical casters in them. No more killing half the enemies to force a morale check, just cast a Firebolt or Ray of Frost!

Precisely. If they decide to run away in fear of a single lightning bolt, they shouldn't turn around and fight again as soon as it disappears. They should be gone.

[Citan]

......

(Alright, we're going to assume that Malifice's auto-scaling houserule is in effect for WB, because otherwise the piddly 1d12 damage would be next to useless for DPR. With that said:)

Witch Bolt is even worse for an Eldritch Knight, because instead of just giving up cantrip DPR, you're giving up all your attacks as a fighter instead. Fighter DPR is much higher, because you get to add your str (or dex) mod per attack, and weapon damage dice can go up to as high as 2d6. Throw in Great Weapon Master (or Sharpshooter), and it's not even a contest. And EKs can Haste as well for another attack, an option denied to them if they choose to blow their concentration on WB instead.

Ok, so you didn't even try to imagine the thing in fact.

1. Consider a situation where you're up against an enemy hard to hit: then giving your all on one round then ensuring auto damage is FAR BETTER than having to try again every round. Obviously, if you can easily hit your enemy on a constant basis Witch Bolt would be useless.

2. Eldricht Knight is not MAD at all. Just look at all the guides. Eldricht Knight CAN rely on INT or just drop it altogether and still be very efficient.
Also, for multiclass, Fighter requires only Strength OR Dexterity 13.
So multiclassing in Sorcerer would be pretty easy.

3. You could very well do everything in the same round thanks to Fighter's Action Surge (if you really want to twin cast) or just quicken your spell if you need to achieve everything in the same round.

However, I did make a mistake about EK's capability: forgot that it provided disadvantage to creature for saving throws, but not for attacks rolls. So it makes it less interesting. UA Shadow Sorcerer would rock though. :)

[Tanarii]

1. Consider a situation where you're up against an enemy hard to hit: then giving your all on one round then ensuring auto damage is FAR BETTER than having to try again every round. Obviously, if you can easily hit your enemy on a constant basis Witch Bolt would be useless.Or you can take MM. As hit change goes down, MM + cantrip spam becomes even more valuable relative to Witch Bolt (with cantrip spam on a miss). Because the latter needs an initial hit, and MM doesn't.

[Vogonjeltz]

Which is an adjusted opportunity cost for using MM + Cantrip. But if you don't consider the effect of the opportunity cost at all, you have an meaningless comparison.

It holds true even if we assume Firebolts are thrown after the fact (disadvantage or not), Witchbolt still exceeds damage for the spell slot even at low levels.

It gets much much better if we can practically guarantee the hit in the same way we can guarantee a hit from Magic Missile. Say, from Portent, or a Paralyzed opponent, or Having advantage on that first attack roll (Tides of Chaos).

Actually, a Wild Magic Sorcerer probably could realize the most benefit, being able to Twin Witchbolt, have advantage on the casting (to practically eliminate the risk of failure on the one round) and quicken spells for further bonus casting while witch bolt remains active.

[Tanarii]

It holds true even if we assume Firebolts are thrown after the fact (disadvantage or not), Witchbolt still exceeds damage for the spell slot even at low levels.Only after at least 4 rounds on the same target, not including the round of casting the spell.

How often does your caster need to spend his 1st level slot against a target, followed 4+ rounds blasting the same target with Cantrips (which is what you're comparing it to), staying within 30ft, and not needing his concentration slot?

[krugaan]

Maybe. It relies heavily on ignorance AND stubbornness AND a lack of a willingness to try again, though. If they move 30 feet away, it ends. Reasons they might move include recognizing the spell or simply running from the ongoing lightning bolt. Most thieves who aren't so frightened off that they just keep running out of the whole dungeon are probably at least going to tentatively and carefully reach back to see if the spark resumes. And, when it doesn't, edge closer, testing carefully, until they're back up at the lock and picking it happily since the spell ended.

Tempest Cleric 3 / Storm Sorc 2+

Step 1: Spiritual weapon and apply hammer vigorously to face of target.
Step 2: feel bad, and attempt to staunch bleeding with application of Witch Bolt
Step 3: decide to murder terrified victim instead, as bleeding will not stop
Step 4: Quicken Lightning Leash if your terrified target tries to flee!
Step 5: walk away in slow motion as the target explodes from your awesomeness (don't look back for extra badass points).

[NNescio]

Ok, so you didn't even try to imagine the thing in fact.

1. Consider a situation where you're up against an enemy hard to hit: then giving your all on one round then ensuring auto damage is FAR BETTER than having to try again every round. Obviously, if you can easily hit your enemy on a constant basis Witch Bolt would be useless.

Auto damage so long as you can maintain the grapple. If you can do that, you can also grapple + shove for advantage on all your normal attacks instead. Granted, you can't use GWM without two free hands, unless there's a heavy weapon somewhere that isn't two-handed.

Also, Witchbolt itself relies on an attack roll. One that is based on your non-primary stat, I might remind you, if you're an EK, which makes its all-or-nothing nature even less attractive AGAINST high-AC targets. Sure, it's easier to gain advantage on a single attack, but you still have to maintain your grapple on later rounds.

I find it difficult to imagine an enemy with 1) High AC to make attacks nonviable without advantage 2) High HP to avoid wasting the houseruled scaling WB's DPR 3) Low athletics AND acrobatics modifiers (so, somehow, it's a heavily armored, beefy target with lousy STR and DEX?) 4) Low damage and/or attack modifiers so that you can tank out multiple rounds without risk of getting killed yourself (or straight up losing concentration)

You're dreaming up a corner case that is very unlikely to happen. Nothing in the MM fits, so it has to be something custom-crafted by the DM just to fill your niche. I dunno, maybe an enemy Bladesinger with buffed up HP (like what most DMs like to do with boss monsters if they aren't good with giving him alternative defense) who somehow forgot to pick dispels, counterspells, and mobility options like Misty Step?

Or rich noble in heavily-magicked out armor, one that the PCs can't use later for some reason, maybe?


2. Eldricht Knight is not MAD at all. Just look at all the guides. Eldricht Knight CAN rely on INT or just drop it altogether and still be very efficient.
Also, for multiclass, Fighter requires only Strength OR Dexterity 13.
So multiclassing in Sorcerer would be pretty easy.

EK is MAD if you choose to rely on non-AoE spells that rely on attack rolls and/or saves, and are all-or-nothing (no effect at all when your opponent saves). Like, say, Witch Bolt.

EK builds which dump INT just pick buffs and spells that don't rely on saves, or have a partial effect even if the enemy saves. Like the spells I was advocating earlier. Or strong AoE spells like Fireball that are also good against clumped-up targets even with an abysmal save DC.

(Put in this way, if you dumped INT, your vaunted Witch Bolt might as well be made with disadvantage all the time, compared to your regular attacks.)

Throwing in Sorc means you need Charisma 13, making you even more MAD.

Also, do pull off your combo, you'll need high Strength for your grapple checks, so really, MAD either way, regardless if you focus more on your EK or Sorc side. Dipping in EK or hurts a Sorc's spell progression by at least 3 levels.

[Malifice]

Wizard 6 with Int 18 uses his third level slot on Lighting bolt (following it up with firebolt on rounds 2 and 3) as opposed to the same Wizard using the same slot on witchbolt (and then sustaining it for rounds 2 and 3). Target has an AC of 15 and a whopping +5 to dex saves:


Witchbolt is +7 to hit = 65 percent chance to hit, damage = (65 percent of 19.5) - round up to 13 DPR
Lightning bolt does 28 damage (save half). Save DC 15 with +5 save = 50 percent chance of save = DPR 21 for LB plus 65 percent of 11 from firebolt for rounds 2 onwards = 7 DPR


Ignoring concentration requirement of WB, and the fact it can be ended by simply walking away (both serious limitations to the spell), the fact its range sucks compared to the other spells (requiring you to be within move + attack range of your target) and the fact LB is an AOE spell so can take down multiple targets, after three sustained rounds WB deals an average of 39 points of single target damage. The LB + FB deals 35 points of single target damage over the same period of time.

It takes about three rounds for the WB to catch up to LB+FB. Three whole rounds for the caster to get clobbered and drop concentration, the target to walk away etc.

Upscaling the secondary damage to 1d12 per slot level is what was intended with the rules. You are never ever going to sustain a spell that deals 1d12 damage per round when you have access to at will xd10 at will cantrips with a better range that dont require concentration.

How people are not seeing this is beyond me.

Its a typo. The secondary damage is supposed to be (slot x d12). I run it this way, and its far from broken and still rarely used. Its a situationally useful spell with some serious limitations and thats about it.

[Segev]

Upscaling the secondary damage to 1d12 per slot level is what was intended with the rules. You are never ever going to sustain a spell that deals 1d12 damage per round when you have access to at will xd10 at will cantrips with a better range that dont require concentration.

How people are not seeing this is beyond me.

Its a typo. The secondary damage is supposed to be (slot x d12). I run it this way, and its far from broken and still rarely used. Its a situationally useful spell with some serious limitations and thats about it.

It's not a typo, unless it was copied from somewhere for some reason, but was meant to be dropped in the copy/paste.

I suspect it WAS intended, because somebody on the writing or editing team wanted to err on the side of not overpowering the spell.

It's bad, though.

Therefore, it is a reasonable house rule to remove "initial." I just don't recommend claiming it was intended, or that it's a typo. Call it your house rule fix; it doesn't hurt it to remove the assumption that it was "intended."

[Citan]

(Put in this way, if you dumped INT, your vaunted Witch Bolt might as well be made with disadvantage all the time, compared to your regular attacks.)

Throwing in Sorc means you need Charisma 13, making you even more MAD.

Also, do pull off your combo, you'll need high Strength for your grapple checks, so really, MAD either way, regardless if you focus more on your EK or Sorc side. Dipping in EK or hurts a Sorc's spell progression by at least 3 levels.

That's why I say you don't even try.
With Bolt is on Sorcerer's list. Fighter doesn't require anything else than STR or DEX to multiclass.
Hence an EK with 16 DEX and 16 CHA is perfectly viable. Just learn offensive spells from Sorcerer and buffs from EK.
Actually, this is a plain Sorcerer build when you think about it, since Sorcerers need DEX anyways for some spells.

[NNescio]

That's why I say you don't even try.

And you keep moving the goalposts.



With Bolt is on Sorcerer's list. Fighter doesn't require anything else than STR or DEX to multiclass.
Hence an EK with 16 DEX and 16 CHA is perfectly viable. Just learn offensive spells from Sorcerer and buffs from EK.
Actually, this is a plain Sorcerer build when you think about it, since Sorcerers need DEX anyways for some spells.

Okay, fine, I take it you concede that WB isn't practical for an EK-primary build then, if you're investing that much into Charisma (unless you intend for WB and other 1st level Sorc spells to be your only spell attack/save-dependent spells). Let's work with the Sorc primary. Splitting up equally between EK and Sorc is a bad, bad idea, since you're sacrificing spell access too much.

(Plus, as I have repeatedly said, Witchbolt burns your concentration, so most buffs CANNOT be cast when it's up.)

So, how are you supposed to use your earlier suggested grapple tactic if you dumped STR? I raised this point earlier already. And nearly no spell relies on DEX for saves or attack rolls; spell attacks are now based on your spellcasting stat, not Dex unlike ranged touched attacks from 3.5e.

The houseruled auto-scaling Witchbolt can be situationally useful, but only if your teammate creates an opening for you by tieing your enemies down (which can be easier and doesn't require much tying down if you combine Distant spell with Spellsniper for a 120ft range WB). Trying to tie them down yourself while maintaining WB has far too many opportunity costs.

So, here, I'm going to make a suggestion instead of just shooting down yours all the time. Trying to be constructive here:

Go straight Sorc, pick Distant spell (and Counterspell later while you're at it, to benefit from the increased range) and probably Quicken. Might want to pick Spell Sniper* if you like spell attacks and the DM enforces cover a lot, which also provides another benefit to WB (the increased range usually doesn't come up for other attack spells). No need to muck around with EK, Sorcs benefit less from a 3-level dip anyway, unlike Wizards (action surge is more valuable when you don't have Quicken and/or Twin, and armor plus Con save proficiency is more attractive to Wizards, plus they're more SAD). Auto-scaling WB makes it a sort of okay pick against the occasional single big-ticket high HP target (as mentioned earlier) if your teamamtes can help tie him down.

(*120 ft autoscaling WB does make it viable to be maintained with cunning action alone [stay within 50 ft]. Maybe you should be looking into an Arcane Trickster dip instead of EK. This might let you pull double duty as skill monkey/party face and secondary arcane caster.)

[Vogonjeltz]

Only after at least 4 rounds on the same target, not including the round of casting the spell.

How often does your caster need to spend his 1st level slot against a target, followed 4+ rounds blasting the same target with Cantrips (which is what you're comparing it to), staying within 30ft, and not needing his concentration slot?

At low levels when the characters may only have a +4 to +6 to hit? Fairly often combats have gone many rounds.

[georgie_leech]

At low levels when the characters may only have a +4 to +6 to hit? Fairly often combats have gone many rounds.

Thing is, those hit bonuses often go with low hp totals as well.

[JackPhoenix]

Clearly its a typo and the spell is intended to do 1d12 per slot level on the 1st and subsequent rounds.

How are people not seeing this?

Mike Mearls thinks otherwise (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/06/how-come-witch-bolts-sustained-damage-doesnt-increase-with-higher-spell-slots/):
"How come Witch Bolt's sustained damage doesn't increase with higher spell slots? It feels a bit weak to me?"

"I believe because it stacks up too quickly - usually, damage buffs are one or two dice total"

He's not Jeremy Crawford, so it's not strictly RAI, but...

[R.Shackleford]

The best out of a bad situation

Mountain Dwarf Lightning Sorcerer 18/Rogue 2

AC: 15 or 16

Final Ability Scores
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 10
Cha: 18

Feats: Warcaster, Grappler

Grab enemy (expertise athletics) quicken shocking grasp.

Restrain enemy (Grappler feat) quicken witch bolt (9th level). Continue to use witch bolt each round.

One creature IS getting grabbed (+14 athletics), I have advantage on attack roll (potential crit), and it will be hard to break my concentration. Plus I can move and dash or perform a quicken spell each round (continuing witch bolt isn't casting a spell)

My concentration check is 1d20 +3 +6 +Advantage.

9d12 + 4 + 9d12 normal hit (62.5 + 58.5 = 121 damage while I keep a creature restrained).

18d12 + 4 + 9d12 critical hit (117 + 4 + 58.2 = 179.2 while I keep enemy restraimed... Plus quickening spells... Quicken lightning bolt or maybe quicken delayed blast fireball... Set it to explode after my witch bolt duration and then disengage away...)

Not the most damaging but it would be a cool character. Shock a creature and then leave a 21d6 bomb on their face as your disengage and run away.

[Zalabim]

If you restrain with grappler, you can no longer move either. If you cast witch bolt while grappling or restraining an enemy, the best you can hope for is neutral since proximity to an enemy and being restrained both cause disadvantage on the ranged attack roll. You wouldn't be able to set up a delayed blast fireball since it requires concentration too. Other than that, crapping lightning everywhere would be a good theme, though Storm Sorcerer might be a better option if you're going to be in melee range anyway.