Mother Cyst and Sublime Chord

[magicalmagicman]

1. I can use my 4th level spells per day on my sublime chord to cast necrotic cyst.
2. I can't use my bard spell slots to cast any necrotic spells.

Is this correct?

[Gallowglass]

1. I can use my 4th level spells per day on my sublime chord to cast necrotic cyst.


Spells per Day: A sublime chord has the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, all of 4th level or higher. ... A sublime chord can choose spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list or the bard spell list; if a spell appears on both lists at different levels, she uses the bard version of the spell.


Necrotic Cyst
(Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead)

Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Cleric 2, Sorcerer 2, Wizard 2

sublime chord can only choose spells higher than 4th level. Necrotic Cyst is 2nd level. So no.




2. I can't use my bard spell slots to cast any necrotic spells.


Probably not. If you find any Necrotic spells that list "Bard" under the level option, then sure, but I don't know of any.

[Ger. Bessa]

I've seen on this boards different readings of mother cyst, some of those specifically allowing such things.

If (that's the different reading) mother cyst adds the spells to your spells knowns, you perfectly can use a 4th (or higher) spell slot to cast a lv1, 2 or 3 spell that you know.

I've also seen readings where the feat adds the spells to your list (even if what you mentionned [cleric 2, wiz/sor 2] goes against it).

On the other hand, if the feat is only a feat tax to use that line of spells, no, you can't.

So with purely hard RAW and the unfunniest glasses ever, no you can't. For what you want to do OTOH, honestly, ask your DM.

One question though... since you've decided to brainwash your demon hipster chicks with necrotic tumors, why go with a charisma caster when wizard does it better ?

[magicalmagicman]

One question though... since you've decided to brainwash your demon hipster chicks with necrotic tumors, why go with a charisma caster when wizard does it better ?

Well there was that thread about the 0gp wizard being completely unable to make a comeback despite being like level 13. Oh and lots of ppl debate that if wizard loses spellbook he is utterly worthless, and he can't scribe spells he already knows without money. And tattoo'd spellbooks have the issue whether damage has a chance of ruining the tattoo with scars and whatnot, and whether or not healing magic restores parts of torn off tattoo. That and the tattoos can be erased by the erase spell.

Sorcerers out of the box can do everything anytime, and versatile spellcaster is really nice, and it also grants early access. Also i like a specialized feel. So sorcerers are simple, specialized, and equipment independent, which is why I grab eschew materials, the feat that every optimizer cries at the sight of.

Same with bard/sublime chord. I think about them just for fun. My current sorcerer is 16 int for the skill points in a 25 point buy which is a huge pain, and I grab draconic heritage: battle dragon for the perform class skill. By going bard I'm basically delaying all my spells by 1 level in exchange for 1 feat and 6 ability points (since I only need int 12 instead of 16)

And for the last goddamn time I bind succubi for the ethereal by my side at all times body guard and spy roles. The true reason behind the nonlethal orbs and cysts is to finally bind pit fiends without dealing with so much crap. geas fails against them because they got at will magic circle, same with dominate monster, and fiendish codex II made it clear devils don't work for free, etc.

[Troacctid]

Why not just learn Summon Component? A 1st level spell known is usually cheaper than a feat, unless you're going into fiend-blooded or master transmogrifist.

[magicalmagicman]

Why not just learn Summon Component? A 1st level spell known is usually cheaper than a feat, unless you're going into fiend-blooded or master transmogrifist.

Wow, I did not know that spell existed. I'm going to have to think some things over. I also enjoy ignore material components for epic levels, so that's a factor too.

Anyways, by RAW, I believe Mother Cyst adds those spells to spell knowns, but its weird. Any class can take that feat, but those spells are listed as sorcerer/wizard/cleric exclusive, so I guess although technically you know those spells, you can't cast them because you lack the appropriate class spell slots, but does sublime chord's spell slots qualify for that? I'm thinking yes.

[Gallowglass]

Wow, I did not know that spell existed. I'm going to have to think some things over. I also enjoy ignore material components for epic levels, so that's a factor too.

Anyways, by RAW, I believe Mother Cyst adds those spells to spell knowns, but its weird. Any class can take that feat, but those spells are listed as sorcerer/wizard/cleric exclusive, so I guess although technically you know those spells, you can't cast them because you lack the appropriate class spell slots, but does sublime chord's spell slots qualify for that? I'm thinking yes.

Live by the RAW, die by the RAW. You can't insist on a RAW specific interpretation of one part of an ability while consciously choosing to ignore the rest of the WRITTEN RULES of the ability.aaa

From Mother Cyst Feat: "Normal: A creature without this feat cannot cast necrotic cyst spells." So even Troacctid's extremely liberal use of Summon Component doesn't let you use necrotic cyst spells because the RAW is not "A creature without a mother cyst cannot cast necrotic cyst spells" it is "a creature without THIS FEAT cannot cast necrotic cyst spells." Pedantic? Sure. But this is a RAW argument isn't it?

From all Necrotic Cyst spells: "Level: Cleric X, Sorcerer X, Wizard X", So if you are a bard or other class and you take the Mother Cyst feat it DOESN'T by RAW do anything useful. You don't have a cleric, sorcerer or wizard spell list so you can't add these spells to your list, so you can't access the spells whether you want to parse it as you have them or not.

Now for the Sublime Chord who "adds a small number of sorcerer or wizard spells OF FOURTH LEVEL OR HIGHER to their spell list", congratulations. If you choose them as you level you can add:

"4th--necrotic domination; 5th--necrotic burst; 6th--necrotic eruption; 7th--necrotic tumor; 8th--necrotic empowerment; 9th--necrotic termination"

to your list, but not:

"1st--necrotic awareness; 2nd--necrotic cyst, necrotic scrying; 3rd--necrotic bloat;"

Just to further some RAW pedanatry:

From Summon Component:
"You cup your hand and the object you desire appears in your palm.", So the necrotic cyst doesn't appear embedded in a different person.
"No component you summon can be worth more than a single gold piece, and it can't be a magic item", how much is a necrotic cyst worth? is it magical?

[magicalmagicman]

The summon component discussion has nothing to do with the cyst discussion. I was talking about why I didn't like wizards, and why I take eschew materials on my sorcerer in another thread I made, and Troacctid merely suggested that the spell, summon component, would be a great substitute for eschew materials. There is no way summon component would let anyone cast cyst spells because those spells require the mother cyst as a focus, not a material component.

Taking the feat Mother Cyst grants you all the cyst spells as a spell known. You don't have to waste your sublime chord spell knowns to grab those spells.

So the question i was asking was, if I was a sublime chord, can I use my 4th level spell slots to cast 2nd level spells I know?

[daremetoidareyo]

Heighten spell?

[A.A.King]

So if I got this right you are asking the following:

Assuming/Given that the "Mother Cyst" feat adds all the Necrotic Cyst spells to a Sublime Chord's spells known list (including the ones below level 4 even though a character usually doesn't have any Sublime Chord spells of those levels) can that character use his 4th level or higher spell slots to cast his 2nd-Level spells?

I think you can, seeing as generally a caster can use a spell slot to cast any spell of that level or lower.

However I disagree with your two main assumptions:
1) Mother Cyst adds the spells to your spell known list
2) Including the spells with spell levels you don't have (in this case 1st, 2nd, and 3rd)

I mean personally I don't think that a 15th level bard with a charisma of 17+ and the Versatile Spellcaster feat and Air Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium can combine his 2 6th level spell slot to cast "Ethereal Jaunt". If your class doesn't have spells of that level then you can't know spells of that level even if a feat says it grants them. But maybe that is just me.

If you are dead set on casting Necrotic Cyst it might be easier to just take 3 levels in Lyric Thaumaturge.

[magicalmagicman]

If you are dead set on casting Necrotic Cyst it might be easier to just take 3 levels in Lyric Thaumaturge.

Or wyrm wizard.

[A.A.King]

Or wyrm wizard.

True, though a Lyric Thaumaturge dips works better for bards than a Wyrm Wizard dip. If you want to qualify for Wyrm Wizard one the things you'll have to pick Arcane Preperation which is a useless feat, if you want to qualify for Lyric Thaumaturge the only extra thing you have to pick up is Melodic Casting (which is a feat you probably want anyway).

Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 / X 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / X+9 (10) gives you a first and second level wizard spell of your choice added to the bard list (in this case Necrotic Cyst and maybe even Necrotic Awareness) and room for the Necromancer Prestige Class of your choice (in this build simply known as X)