Harry Potter In D&D 3.5

[Bartmanhomer]

I just thought of something. What if Harry Potter was a D&D character? If he was a D&D character, he should be consider a Level 20 wizard or probably a lot higher than that consider to be an epic wizard. His adventures are high level and legendary. He beat Voldermort which he's consider an epic wizard. I think Harry Potter should be an NPC or if players wanted to play him as a PC. What do you think about Harry Potter being a D&D character?

[AvatarVecna]

There's definitely ways to emulate HP spells within D&D 3.5, but the magic system in HP is entirely compatible with 3.5 magic; how often a wizard/witch in HP can cast a spell isn't well defined, nor whether more powerful effects require more exertion on the part of the witch/wizard. Sure, the latter could be assumed, but how quickly they can cast spells (and whether therecs any kind of daily magic limit) is undefined. What's more, they're likely some kind of Int-based spontaneous caster, making the closest equivalent class I can think of the Arcanist from Pathfinder.

What's more, giving HP HP (*rimshot*) causes issues with certain effects, due to most HP mages being pretty flimsy by muggle NPC standards.

And let's not even get started on the super-broken effects in Harry Potter. Any self-respecting 3.5 Wizard who got their hands on a Time Turner could take over the world with enough diligence, especially if they had the brilliant idea to become a multiple-phylactery lich who stires said phylacteries with properties protected by Fidelius charms.

[ben-zayb]

I can't remember seeing them prepare their spells, and they remind me more of warlocks to be honest, what with the eldritch wand blasts. Then again, I only read one book so my pov might not be the most accurate.

[AvatarVecna]

I can't remember seeing them prepare their spells, and they remind me more of warlocks to be honest, what with the eldritch wand blasts. Then again, I only read one book so my pov might not be the most accurate.

Some kind of spontaneous caster would be best, likely Int-based, with access to healing magic.

EDIT: If it weren't for the fact that they aren't really bursting into song or spontaneous dances, Sage Bard would work...and the few powerful members of the society are actually full-fledged Sage bloodline Sorcerers.

[MisterKaws]

Actually, he would at most be a 7-9th level character, seeing as he doesn't have any shown ability to protect against save-or-dies, other than just counterspelling them, and he flies with a rather inefficient method for a D&D caster, so he really isn't that great.

[Cruiser1]

If he was a D&D character, he should be consider a Level 20 wizard or probably a lot higher than that consider to be an epic wizard.
Harry Potter (or rather characters of equivalent power that interact with him) can be simulated well in D&D 3.5 with relatively low level characters. For example, Milo as a mere level 3 Wizard is able to do well against a bunch of Death Eaters in the classic crossover fanfic: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20

[ATHATH]

I would image Harry Potter to actually be an Artificer. He can brew potions (the Brew Potion feat) and mainly uses a Wand (if the Wand has the Olidimmara's Bard Spell spell in it and Harry took the variant ability for the Magic domain in that issue of Dragon, he could cast a wide variety of spells with a single Wand). Most of the Macguffins and cool toys in the HP books are magic items, too.

[Bartmanhomer]

Actually, he would at most be a 7-9th level character, seeing as he doesn't have any shown ability to protect against save-or-dies, other than just counterspelling them, and he flies with a rather inefficient method for a D&D caster, so he really isn't that great.

I think he's far beyond than in those levels, MisterKaws.

[Requiem_Jeer]

He really isn't. If you look at the actual feats that Moldyshorts got up to, you could manage it without hitting 7th level spells. He's just not epic. And if Voldie's not epic, Harry certainly isn't.

[Red Fel]

Yeah. Ignoring for just a moment the general rule that characters in literature tend to be lower-level than we'd expect (see, e.g., all the analysis of LotR characters), Harry really doesn't do anything epic. He clearly has some sort of special homebrew Favored Enemy (Dark Lord) feat that gives him bonuses to hit, counter, and resist Voldemort's abilities, but other than that?

He basically has one spell. One spell. Expelliarmus is his signature; it's a ranged disarm as a touch attack. Does he do anything else consistently? Okay, he can conjure a positive energy creature that fights off Dementors - call that Summon Monster somewhere between I and III, calling a celestial stag. Fine. What else? A few minor debuffs, sure, and the ability to light lights or open locks. That's about it.

None of that puts him at remotely epic levels. Which makes sense, because he never actually finished his magic education. (Until the epilogue, anyway.)

I mean, for crying out loud, the kid is famous for rolling a natural 20 on a save-or-die when he was a baby! That's his claim to fame! We'll say he has Residual Rebound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/spelltouchedFeats.htm#residualRebound) (although it really ought to be one of the death-related ones, if any). Again, doesn't say much at all.

[Afgncaap5]

Maybe he just has Death Ward as a permanent, ongoing effect?

Honestly, to represent Harry (or any of the other figures in the wizarding world) in D&D you'd want to use a different system. It might be worth looking at skill-based magic (like in the d20 Wheel of Time material). It might also be worth making all of Harry's magic be skill based in a way more akin to a few 3e skills, like with ranks in Alchemy or Scrying. (Honestly, each class sort of feels like a unique skill that a person can become more or less adept with.) So, Harry would be someone with passable Alchemy, weak Divinations, reasonable Charms and Transfigurations, and (given his unnatural aptitude for defense against the Dark Arts) incredible Abjurations. As in other skills, you need the proper tools (in this case a wand, or sometimes special books or alchemical labs.) Toss in Pathfinder's Fly skill for broomstick aptitude, and you're on the right track.

Apart from those two systems, he might also work well with an energy-based d20 magic system like Spheres of Power. Heavy focus on the Protection sphere, toss in Telekinesis (for both calling a broomstick to his hand and disarming enemy wands), some weird meshing of the Life and Death spheres since he's the Boy Who Lived (or maybe even the Fate sphere since his survival often depends on vaguely defined things like "love" and such), and a few other sphere talents for regular use. His Casting Tradition would probably be Focus Casting (for the wands), Verbal Casting ("It’s Wing-gar-dium Levi-o-sa, make the ‘gar’ nice and long"), and maybe some form of Skilled Casting to represent fine manipulation of the wand that seems to be different than just somatic components (swish-and-flick), so some sort of "Perform (Wand Gestures)" skill.

While d20 is generally not great for representing literary magic users, I think Harry Potter's one of the more achievable examples.

[The Vagabond]

Personally, if I HAD to stat out Harry in D&D terms?
I would just backport Spheres of Power, and use that. It serves as a far closer analog to Potterverse magic, with magic that relies more on practice than anything else.

Also, shoutout to Harry Potter and the Natural 20 (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Natural-20). Like a pratchett novel, with the main character being a D&D wizard in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Hilarity ensues.

[Strigon]

I'd just like to point out that the killing curse is not a save-or-die. It's just a ranged touch attack that kills instantly.
The only person to survive is Harry, and that's because of a temporary immunity/resistance; if it were a save, he wouldn't be nearly so special.

In any case, Harry himself is definitely quite a low level. Voldemort, obviously, is some lesser known Lich variant, but I don't think anyone in the HP universe is level 20; putting a level 20 Wizard, even an unoptimized one, in that universe would result in him being king of the entire world.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd say Voldie is at most level 15. Probably level 13. And Harry is lucky if he's level 7 by the end of the series. He's probably closer to level 5. A somewhat optimized combat mage, since he can best most of the Death Eaters by himself, but he either has plot armor or he gets lucky with the dice when it matters.

Hermione is, of course, the group's rules lawyer, and Ron is the belligerent, drunk roommate who'd rather play YuGiOh and racing games on his iPhone, which the DM has tried to incorporate into his world via Exploding Snap and Quidditch. Ron has no idea what's going on 90% of the time after the first part of the campaign because he's clearly lost interest, and even when he does, he tends toward trolling the other players and provoking intraparty strife.

[TheIronGolem]

I'd say Voldie is at most level 15. Probably level 13. And Harry is lucky if he's level 7 by the end of the series. He's probably closer to level 5. A somewhat optimized combat mage, since he can best most of the Death Eaters by himself, but he either has plot armor or he gets lucky with the dice when it matters.

Harry is the very worst kind of DMPC.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Harry is the very worst kind of DMPC.He's everyone else's tool. He does very little himself in later books, and the only reason he's still alive past book 2 is because of constant deus ex machinas.

[Red Fel]

He's everyone else's tool. He does very little himself in later books, and the only reason he's still alive past book 2 is because of constant deus ex machinas.

Which is finally lampshaded in a later book, but only raises the point that, if Harry was a pawn the whole time, then the entire series was utterly unnecessary. If everything was perfectly engineered and orchestrated to such a degree that Harry truly lacked any agency to speak of, then he is officially a terrible protagonist, let alone character.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Which is finally lampshaded in a later book, but only raises the point that, if Harry was a pawn the whole time, then the entire series was utterly unnecessary. If everything was perfectly engineered and orchestrated to such a degree that Harry truly lacked any agency to speak of, then he is officially a terrible protagonist, let alone character.That is what fanfiction is for, I guess.

That, and crossovers.

And slash.

But not canon slash. Ugh. Draco? Really? Or worse, Snape? WHYYYYYY!?!

[ATHATH]

Speaking of HP fanfiction, there's a good one called Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality. It basically details what would happen if Harry was actually competent (and a little bit more evil, I recommend it to you, Red Fel). It does suffer a bit from Cerebus Syndrome, though.

[ekarney]

When you consider that the "most powerful and evil spells" are just save or dies and not very good ones at that, it just seems like everyone dumped wis.

From what I've gathered is the wizards in HP could be one of a few alternatives.
But, there's a few things we need to remember, one, that HP wasn't designed to be compatible with 3.5. Two, that if it hypothetically is set in a 3.5 setting, that there's been some amount of DM fiat/homebrewing.

Alternative 1
Never seen preparing spells, ergo, spontaneous
Either massive amounts of SPD, a way of very quickly and easily refreshing SPD. (Possible DM fiat due to it being a high magic campaign "If everyone's casting spells, and all the part does is cast spells, then maybe i should give them more spells so they can survive 4 encounters a day")
Expanded/Modified spell list, beyond what 3.5 allows for Sorcerers.
Low level, due to the fact that the story is based around one person who survived a Save or Die. (Thanks MisterKaws)
High enough level for at least certain students to cast Teleport and Telekinesis.
Probably a 1 or 2 level Artificer dip. seeing as very few people actually cast alter self and prefer to brew it as a potion, implying that they don't know the spell, or it's not on their list.
Supporting the Artificer notion, they tend to use Spell Storing Infusion and use their wands as the target.
Magic seems to be inherited most of the time, further supporting the sorcerer notion.

Alternative 2
Seen researching spells in classes, may actually be prepared casters.
Explains high amount of SPD.
Likely have Spell Mastery, since every character seems to have a preference for one specific spell they can cast whenever they feel like.
Wizards learning spells faster allows them to still have crappy saves and a couple levels of Artificer, those two levels may be fairly universal.
Magic being inherited may be a setting specific rule as opposed to Sorcerer specific.


Individual characters.
The main trio seem to be built to the standard of Caster 10ish/Artificer 2 (or the other way around, seeing as they use the Alter Self potion quite early.

Voldemort, seems to have a HEAP of Phylacteries, and is regarded as quite powerful, so he may have more HD and has the Lich Template. May actually use some sort of metamagic'd wisdom drain to kill people, seeing as Harry suffers from a low Wisdom and Neville's parents went totally mad.

The Founding Fathers: I believe it's written, though I haven't even thought about HP for several years may be epic level, since it appears they've invented spells of their own.

Neville: Apparently swapped out most of his caster levels for Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 6, as he demonstrates terrible casting ability, a penchant for Survival (becoming Herbology Professor) and has a very nice charger build that he uses in Deathly Hallows, also explains his proficiency with the sword, and they fact that he may have dumped Int and Charisma.

[5ColouredWalker]

Neville: Apparently swapped out most of his caster levels for Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 6, as he demonstrates terrible casting ability, a penchant for Survival (becoming Herbology Professor) and has a very nice charger build that he uses in Deathly Hallows, also explains his proficiency with the sword, and they fact that he may have dumped Int and Charisma.

I almost fell out of my chair at that. Bravo!

Edit:
Anyhow, for spells, perhaps a combination spellpoint with fatigue system and spell recovery system based on those in UA. It explains why spellcasting can be exhausting (Spell points drop too low? Get fatigue/exhaustion etc), and, if the spell points are set to recover fast enough, it explians how spells can be spammed like pennies.



Of course, if I wanted to model it as closely as possible, I'd make everyone warlocks with an ACF that stripped out a bunch of features but made them learn invocations like a wizard.

[GreyBlack]

I just thought of something. What if Harry Potter was a D&D character? If he was a D&D character, he should be consider a Level 20 wizard or probably a lot higher than that consider to be an epic wizard. His adventures are high level and legendary. He beat Voldermort which he's consider an epic wizard. I think Harry Potter should be an NPC or if players wanted to play him as a PC. What do you think about Harry Potter being a D&D character?

Okay, so step 1: Harry Potter is not a level 20 wizard. He's probably edging in around a level 5 in the books. Voldemort is likely somewhere in the area of level 7-8, while Dumbledore is edging in on 9. I used to have an article I'd link to about this, but a good baseline to consider is that Aragorn, son of Arathorn, King of Gondor in LOTR is in the area of level 5 (Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2).

Let's look at spells he can cast, as this is going to be the best indicator of what level he should be. While, yes, there are no 1:1 analogues Potter-3.5/PF (I operate in PF, so I'll pull from there), we can at least get an idea.

Okay, so. Harry can cast the Unforgiveable Curses. The only one he ever casts is the Crucio curse, which causes unbelievable agony to the spell target. The spell can be modeled as a Necromancy spell, in my eyes, using spells like Ray of Exhaustion to simulate the effect. Ray of Exhaustion is a 3rd level Wizard spell, so then the earliest he could cast it would be at Level 5. This makes sense; Harry is significantly more powerful than the average wizard (years of fighting the Dark Ones tends to give you amazing XP), and Level 5 is generally the top end of where you would see your Average Joe.

Comparatively, let's look at Voldemort. Ignoring lichdom, he is able to straight up kill using the Avada Kevadra. The earliest kill spell Wizards get is Phantasmal Killer at Spell Level 4. Earliest cast point for Phantasmal Killer is level 7, making Voldy a minimum of Wizard 7, likely boosted due to lichdom.

In my research, now, it appears that characters in the HP universe are only really going to max out at 4th level spells, with some of the more impressive feats accomplished being through the Level 4 varieties. Dumbledore casts Dimensional Anchor and Greater Invisibility. The best I can get on Dumbledore is that he can apparently cast True Seeing or See Invisible, as he is able to see through the Invisibility Cloak (or at least likely can), putting him at an astounding Spell Level 6, or Wizard 11.

So, if you really want to go this route, consider this. Harry Potter, compared to some wizards we've created or can even name from fiction, is actually comparatively weak. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go drink myself into oblivion because I wasted 20 minutes finding feats that I could apply so we could port over Harry Potter characters into 3.5/PF.

[Ger. Bessa]

The cruciatus curse is Wrack [BoVD] and is lv4 for wizards.
Imperio is Dominate person (it's never used on dragons, cornish pixies or inferi, so target: humanoid looks fine to me).
Avada Kedvra is ranged touch Slay living.

No character in HP need to be above lv9.
(Disapparition is something between DDoor and teleport lv4/5)
And polymorh anything is split in many little spells, none deserving to be above lv3.

(Actually, I think second year students can cast irresistible dance, but they can still cast through it with a concentration check).

[Willie the Duck]

he should be consider a Level 20 wizard or probably a lot higher than that consider to be an epic wizard. His adventures are high level and legendary. He beat Voldermort which he's consider an epic wizard.

The only epic thing Harry does is defeat Voldemort (with a lot of help), another supposedly epic character whose only really epic in informed greatness ( we are told he's really big and bad, but we never really see him do anything that amazing).

[denthor]

Why it is very difficult for me to agree with our esteemed Red Fel I must

He-who-must-not-be-named is shown flying all the characters in the book Are intimidated and impressed that he could cast a third-level spell Fly

This puts everybody else in the book Below 5th level

Dumbledore is only great because he has a wand that is an artifact

[Âmesang]

Okay, so step 1: Harry Potter is not a level 20 wizard. He's probably edging in around a level 5 in the books. Voldemort is likely somewhere in the area of level 7-8, while Dumbledore is edging in on 9. I used to have an article I'd link to about this, but a good baseline to consider is that Aragorn, son of Arathorn, King of Gondor in LOTR is in the area of level 5 (Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2).
Heck, one should be able to stat out the Dark Lord Sauron as a 12th-level artificer (based on the prerequisites of Forge Ring/Craft Artifact).

EDIT: I assume this was the article? The Alexandrian — Calibrating Your Expectations (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2).

[Xuldarinar]

Harry Potter would most likely be;

Human Sorcerer (Sage Bloodline) 5(tops), with a bloodline familiar (Owl), several ranks in Fly, and reasonable Dexterity and Intelligence scores.

[GSQ|unionjack]

I'm just going to throw this out there. Spells lists aside, mechanically I think the psion makes a lot of sense. Spontaneous casting on variable power levels using the power points system feel like it fits. It covers all the levitation, healing, disarming, etc. If you give a psion a wand and call it magic, it's a wizard from HP.

Maybe powerful wizards like Voldemort and Dumbledoor are higher level, and Harry just got some homebrew feat to let him spend PP over his level. Better yet, he plays at one of those tables where they read the psion rules wrong and just assumed they were super powerful.

[Strigon]

Why it is very difficult for me to agree with our esteemed Red Fel I must

He-who-must-not-be-named is shown flying all the characters in the book Are intimidated and impressed that he could cast a third-level spell Fly

This puts everybody else in the book Below 5th level

Dumbledore is only great because he has a wand that is an artifact

Not just that, but remember; an item that grants invisibility is a legendary artifact; one that literally lets you cheat death. Granted it's at-will, but the point remains it's still not that impressive.

[digiman619]

I think the Potterverse is run in E6.

[Afgncaap5]

I think the Potterverse is run in E6.

Seems sensible to me.


Which is finally lampshaded in a later book, but only raises the point that, if Harry was a pawn the whole time, then the entire series was utterly unnecessary. If everything was perfectly engineered and orchestrated to such a degree that Harry truly lacked any agency to speak of, then he is officially a terrible protagonist, let alone character.

There's actually one moment near the end (book 7, I think?) where pretty much all the scheming by other wizards might've been undone by a quick bout of wrestling over the wand between Harry and Draco Malfoy. I like it as a turning point, because Harry actually has to do something for himself. I'd also argue that finding the philosopher's stone in the mirror in Book 1 was significant, but that one's harder to attribute to Harry himself if one doesn't really know the real-world lore behind it with the whole "You must truly desire to find/create the stone more than you desire what you would do with it" thing. Still, isolated instances of autonomy don't excuse a lot of the other issues with him as a protagonist. Fortunately, Neville's around to pick up the slack...

One could also argue that this is a problem not with Harry but with the genre itself, since the Harry Potter books are really fairplay whodunnits in disguise and the main characters of those often let the plot come to them as it will, but that's another discussion for another day, and likely another forum.

[Aharon]

Quoting myself from another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?290583-Tippyverse-DnD-VS-Tippyverse-Potterverse)


I still seem not to have made myself clear: by doing so, it's, in my opinion clear that Tippyverse will win. The universe we use for comparison will always be in advantage, which is why this approach is fundamentally flawed unless we do a full conversion - which leads to loss of exactness/information.#

But for the sake of having fun, I will try to map as many effects from Potterverse as possible to DnD, to see where we land. I expect the result will be far, far below Tippyverse.

I will base my post on the harry potter wiki (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/), which includes material from books, films and games as sources.

Tippyverse Potterverse:
Assumption one: Wandless magic is observed in the books. A Tippyverse Potterverse caster would only use wandless magic, as it is clearly superior by virtue of not being subject to disarming (Tom Riddle, a.k.a Lord Voldemort, also only performed wandless magic in the films, not counting the controlled magic he performed prior to going to Hogwarts. In the Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire film, Voldemort wandlessly knocked Harry to the ground, deflected Harry's Disarming Charm by waving his hand, and magically lifted Harry from the ground with one hand, apparently applying force to the latter's face whilst forcing him to his feet. He again used wandless magic on Harry in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, impatiently disarming the boy with a wave of his wand-free hand. In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2, Voldemort again used wandless magic to move a dead giant out of the way and to restrain Harry by using his cloak.)

Assumption two: the same is true for non-verbal spells. Our hypothetical Potippy-caster only casts non-verbally.

Spells:
Anapneo - Prevent Choking. No DnD equivalent. Protects against Dust of sneezing and choking?
Brackium Emendo/Ossio Dispersimus - Bestow Boneless Quality (Osteomancer, Dragon Compendium p. 82)
Episkey - Treat mild to moderate injuries: Cure Light Wounds?
Ferula - Binds and splints fractures: Also Cure Light wounds?
Reparifors - heals minor magically-induced ailments like paralysis: Remove Paralysis
Tergeo — spell for clearing up dried blood from a bleeding wound: Prestidigitation
Vulnera Sanentur — spell used to heal deep gashes like those caused by the curse Sectumsempra: Cure Moderate Wounds?
Accio — Telekinesis
Aguamenti - Create Water
Alarte Ascendare - Telekinesis
Albus Dumbledore's forceful spell - Bigby's Forceful Hand?
Alohomora - Knock
Antonin Dolohov's curse - Harm?
Aparecium - See invisible
Aqua Eructo - geyser effect of decanter of endless water with higher dc?
Arania Exumai - Repel vermin limited to arachnids?
Aresto Momentum - Paralysis?
Arrow-shooting spell - Launch Bolt
Ascendio - Levitate
Avada Kedavra - Power Word Kill without HP limit, but as a ray
Avifors - Polymorph, Bird only
Avis - Summon swarm (of birds)
Babbling Curse - Bothersome Babble (Complete Mage)
Bat-Bogey Hex - Summon swarm (of batlike bogies)
Baubillious - Light of Lunia
Bedazzling Hex - equivalent to hide enchantment on armor
Smashing spell - Kelgore's Fire bolt/orb of fire
Bewitched Snowballs - Snilloc's snowball swarm
Bluebell Flames - Light
Bombarda - same as smashing spell
Bombarda Maxima - delayed blast fireball?
Bubble-Head Charm - reproduces effect of necklace of adaptation
Bubble-producing spell - ???
Calvario - ???
Cantis - as Bothersome Babble, except target sings instead of babbling
Carpe Retractum - Animate Rope without needing a target rope
Cascading Jinx - Ball lightning?
Caterwauling Charm - Alarm
Cauldron to Sieve - Polymorph any Object, with limited target and limited form the object can be changed to.
Cave Inimicum - Greater Alarm?
Cheering Charm - Good Hope /Tasha's hideous laughter
Cistem Aperio - Knock
Colloportus - Arcane Lock
Colloshoo - Stun
Colovaria - Prestidigitation
Confringo - Shatter/Disintegrate and fireball?
Confundo - Confusion
Conjunctivitis Curse - Contagion, Blinding sickness only?
Cornflake skin spell - Contagion, Red ache?
Cracker Jinx -
Cribbing Spell -
Crucio - targeted symbol of pain
Mucus ad Nauseam -
Cushioning Charm -
Defodio - Passwall/Soften Earth and Stone
Deletrius - Dispel Magic?
Densaugeo -
Depulso - Telekinesis

Off to bed... To be continued. HP Wizards seem astoundingly versatile from A to D, I think they would fit in well in a mid-op campaign. Among the spells I have reviewed up to date, there aren't any gamechangers that would allow them to win against Tippyverse.

[Hecuba]

Okay, so step 1: Harry Potter is not a level 20 wizard. He's probably edging in around a level 5 in the books. Voldemort is likely somewhere in the area of level 7-8, while Dumbledore is edging in on 9. I used to have an article I'd link to about this, but a good baseline to consider is that Aragorn, son of Arathorn, King of Gondor in LOTR is in the area of level 5 (Ranger 1/Fighter 2/Paladin 2).

Let's look at spells he can cast, as this is going to be the best indicator of what level he should be. While, yes, there are no 1:1 analogues Potter-3.5/PF (I operate in PF, so I'll pull from there), we can at least get an idea.

Okay, so. Harry can cast the Unforgiveable Curses. The only one he ever casts is the Crucio curse, which causes unbelievable agony to the spell target. The spell can be modeled as a Necromancy spell, in my eyes, using spells like Ray of Exhaustion to simulate the effect. Ray of Exhaustion is a 3rd level Wizard spell, so then the earliest he could cast it would be at Level 5. This makes sense; Harry is significantly more powerful than the average wizard (years of fighting the Dark Ones tends to give you amazing XP), and Level 5 is generally the top end of where you would see your Average Joe.

Comparatively, let's look at Voldemort. Ignoring lichdom, he is able to straight up kill using the Avada Kevadra. The earliest kill spell Wizards get is Phantasmal Killer at Spell Level 4. Earliest cast point for Phantasmal Killer is level 7, making Voldy a minimum of Wizard 7, likely boosted due to lichdom.

In my research, now, it appears that characters in the HP universe are only really going to max out at 4th level spells, with some of the more impressive feats accomplished being through the Level 4 varieties. Dumbledore casts Dimensional Anchor and Greater Invisibility. The best I can get on Dumbledore is that he can apparently cast True Seeing or See Invisible, as he is able to see through the Invisibility Cloak (or at least likely can), putting him at an astounding Spell Level 6, or Wizard 11.

So, if you really want to go this route, consider this. Harry Potter, compared to some wizards we've created or can even name from fiction, is actually comparatively weak. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go drink myself into oblivion because I wasted 20 minutes finding feats that I could apply so we could port over Harry Potter characters into 3.5/PF.

I'd dispute this, though only to a limited extent. There are a couple effects in Harry Potter that are well modeled as 7th level spells, and the differences in casting mechanisms would likely justify a progression that capped at 7's over 20 levels instead of 9's.

Supporting this premise requires a detailed discussion of the high-end in HP magic, which requires some groundwork. It also requires some concept of what "D20 Harry Potter" might look like, to which I can propose in broad sketches.
I'll do the former first

Rowling provided a couple well defined examples of how the most powerful spells in the series work, but they are addressed primarily by implication and extra-textual discussion. Complicating the matter is that fanon often formed an idea of how this worked before all the evidence was available, and they are almost uniformly wrong.
If we exclude civic-works projects like the Floo network or the trace (which are probably better considered as well-planned, repeated, and broad implementations of less powerful spells), the two leading examples are:

The sacrificial protection Lily Potter gave Harry Potter at her death (and, from Rowling's extra-textual discussions, Harry gave the defenders of Hogwarts following his at the Battle of Hogwarts)
and Voldemort's curse on the Defense Against the Dark Arts Professorship

Because there is more granular evidence, I'll use the first as an example. This is something of a deep dive, so I'm spoilering it for length.

Our biggest hint for understanding of how the Sacrificial Protection in question works didn't come until after book 7, when Rowling started discussing the matter explicitly. Importantly, she also gives us a second example: she indicated in a discussion that -- after Harry walked to the forest to die -- he provided the same form of protection to the defenders of Hogwarts. As a result, she also indicates that none of the defenders of Hogwarts died in the battle after that point. The death eaters didn't have their spells deflected or burn by touching the defenders: they merely happened to fail at killing anyone else after the protection was in place.

This clears up an immense deal regarding the core nature of the protection, as well as the mechanism.
Mechanism:

Evil Person (V), Sacrifice (L), and Protected Person (H) must be involved.

H can apparently be more than one person.

V must make some form of offer to let Sacrifice L to trade their life for Protected Person(s) H.
L must choose to die to attempt to protect H.


Resulting Effect:

Primary: H is protected from V in a manner that is difficult to distinguish from chance/luck/fate.
Primary: This can be extended past its normal duration by a blood-relative of L (hereafter P) choosing to provide shelter for H while H is a minor (though it us unclear what additional steps are required to do so). After majority, the effect does not instantly end-- presumably it would linger or expire as it normally would have were this measure not present in the first place.

Secondary: An ancillary benefit of extending it in this manner is there are some degree of protections granted either P's home or family while P shelters H. This effect does seem to end promptly at majority (or possibly H moving out - it was important that the Dursley family go into hiding before Harry left Number 4 permanently). This bears the most resemblance to the idea of blood wards, but it is clearly secondary.

Secondary: V disintegrates when touching H, though this may require some confluence with other obscure magics (i.e. accidental horacrux implantation). This is also an effect of secondary importance.
Secondary: These protections also affect people acting in direct service to V (or some similar requirement) -- i.e. it covers Death Eaters.
Secondary: Magics that cause V to share H's blood (or possibly L's blood -- its unclear if the result was from taking Harry's blood because he was the protectee or because he was Lily's blood kin) can eliminate 4 but makes 1 more effective. This may also require confluence with other magics (2 above, horacrux, etc.)


Side notes:
When combined with the prophesy, the result is that if Harry and Voldemort came to a final confrontation while Lily's protection was still in place and there was a way Harry could win then Harry would win.
Voldemort never understood the primary effect. He demonstrated this when he use Harry blood in his resurrection: thus Dumbledore's "something like triumph." This is interesting, since it operates very similar to the cures on the defense position.

Short version: The most important effect of Lily's sacrificial protection is that it made chance/fate/luck/what-have-you bend over backwards to favor Harry over Voldemort.
The scope of this is reasonably close to that of Bestow Greater Curse. It's not a perfect match, but it matches tone and is a reasonable version of the other effect clause (while also being safely beyond the power level appropriate for Bestow Curse, at least by my estimation). The curse on the defense position maps to that relatively well too. Voldemort's quasi-resurrection and possession feats map well to the 5-6 range.
That's a 7th level spell for most lists, along with a couple just a level or two below that. It's not Limited Wish, but its still impressively high up there for an actual example in western fiction.


Moving from there, the question then becomes: at what level should Harry Potter Wizards get 7s?
Spoilering again for length

This is the part that requires sketching out some aspects of "D20 Harry Potter" and trying to reconcile it with D&D.

The HP magic system does not remotely match any of the common casting systems in D&D. Its skill based, so its best matches are likely epic casting and true-naming -- both of which are usually non-starters in practice.

Still, it's workable. Indeed, if we stick to a level 6 or 7 cap on spell level but remove any spell per day limitation it might well make allow for a reasonably balanced class.
It would not hold up to Tier 1's, especially in the presence of significant optimization (where they can bypass their spell limits and other similar balancing elements), but that level of optimization is never a good way to model fiction.
Such a caster could probably outperform a standard bard and would make for an interesting alternative to a sorcerer at any given level -- at least for certain kinds of games.
Short Version: Given the casting mechanic, HP Wizards being 1-2 spell levels behind primary casters at least eye-balls as a decent balance point (in the absence of optimization significantly greater than is normally assumed in modeling characters from fictional works).

The kink in such a conclusion is that the effects that map to 5th-through-7th level are uniformly triggered in a different way. The distinction seems to be relatively similar in kind to both the ritual casting alternate system in (if I recall) UA or to mitigating factors for epic spell-casting. In either case, it casts some doubt as to whether or not it is reasonable to consider those elements when trying to pin down level.

If you decide that you should consider those examples though, then the most powerful characters would need to follow suit. Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Lily Potter should reasonably be modeled at (relatively) high level under such constraints.
Harry, however, should not: it would be better to model him as carrying around an intangible artifact than to shoe-horn the effects of Lily's spell into his character proper.

Further side notes on a theoretical HP D20 system
The notes above omits the following: you would have to balance an entire new power system with a different core mechanic in order to do it.

Bridging the fundamental differences in what the two settings challenging. HP & the Natural 20 (referenced earlier in the thread) uses this as a major plot mover, and it is not wrong in doing so. In addition to the obvious things (the relative permanence of death, cosmology differences, basic levels of biological realism), there are also - for example - issues that only come up when look at how to handle individual monsters.

The most well trodden ground is a dementor. People are often tempted to make it some form of undead (because of the level drain and the movie depiction). That doesn't fit the canon though: canonically, dementors are unliving non-beings. Dementors are were never born and they never die. When large numbers of people are depressed, additional dementors of them just happen - more or less spontaneously. They are probably best represented as some cross between an endrich horror and a depression elemental. But the biggest issues is that they are canonically un-killable: wizards have tried.

Societies full of casters, the most powerful of which can manage something-like-7's in a pinch, have been unable to destroy a single Dementor despite concerted effort.

That does not mean that you can march your army of dementors through Sigil and take over (though they would make dang good foot soldiers), but it does mean that you're going to have to work really hard to fit such a creature into a D&D framework.

If they can't die, what does wining an encounter mean? Do you need to escape them? Force them to flee? Contain them?

They also eat emotions--which is easy to deal with (cf. Grey Jesters & Joystealers) -- and souls -- which are not. An unkillable, soul-eating monster potentially introduces a truly permanent death to D&D. That is a big change. If you choose to make it not truly permanent, what tools can get past it: Resurrection? True Resurrection? Wish/Miracle? SDAs?

Do those mechanisms destroy the dementor as a result? Do you need the dementor that ate the soul (the same way you need physical remains for some options).

If you actually wanted to run Harry Potter in D&D, you would likely need to go through each monster and spell in this manner.

[Malimar]

You need to be level 11 to become a lich, i.e. create a horcrux, so Voldemort's at least level 11. Does he do anything that a level 11 character couldn't do? Aside from the strangeness of the Killing Curse (ranged touch no save just die -- even the analogous finger of death, a level 7 spell, allows a save), not really.

For what reason would one accuse Voldemort of being epic? The only evidence on that score is that he's one of a handful of the most powerful wizards in the world, which for some reason people take to mean "he's epic level", and not "the HP world operates on e11".

[Hecuba]

You need to be level 11 to become a lich, i.e. create a horcrux, so Voldemort's at least level 11. Does he do anything that a level 11 character couldn't do? Aside from the strangeness of the Killing Curse (ranged touch no save just die -- even the analogous finger of death, a level 7 spell, allows a save), not really.

Modeling it with ranged touch provides at least some degree of balance against the lack of save. This also meshes well with the Atrium duel, where Dumbledore effectively uses his animated statue to provide cover against it. (I would probably peg the killing curse below 7--Finger of death is over leveled--but I think 7s are demonstrated elsewhere, so the point is moot.)

That said, modeling it as Finger of Death (instead of, say, slay living) gets us back to level 7 spells. As such, if gets us back to character level 13 if HP wizards get full progression.

At very least, they are not prepared casters-- matching a Sorcerer instead of Wizard gets us to 14. They also have uncapped spells/day and certain other valueable elements of the HP magic system (painless crafting, anyone?). As such, I would expect at least a couple levels higher than that. (See post above).

I would, however, certainly not peg anyone in the story as Epic (at least until Miss Granger, no longer needing to spend all her time saving her silly little friends from scenery-chewing villians, manages to catch up on her reading).

[Strigon]

You need to be level 11 to become a lich, i.e. create a horcrux, so Voldemort's at least level 11. Does he do anything that a level 11 character couldn't do? Aside from the strangeness of the Killing Curse (ranged touch no save just die -- even the analogous finger of death, a level 7 spell, allows a save), not really.

He's clearly some sort of weird non-core Lich, though.
First off, I don't think a normal one can have more than one phylactery, and killing Voldemort clearly has more of an affect on him than "he pops back 1D10 days later."

On a tangent, the MM text for a phylactery states that, in order to completely kill a Lich, its phylactery must be located and destroyed. Does this mean, from a very technical standpoint, that if it is destroyed before being located, the Lich is essentially unkillable?

[tropical_punch]

On a tangent, the MM text for a phylactery states that, in order to completely kill a Lich, its phylactery must be located and destroyed. Does this mean, from a very technical standpoint, that if it is destroyed before being located, the Lich is essentially unkillable?

Certainly not. It doesn't need to be located then destroyed, merely located and destroyed. So all you have to do is locate the Phylactery after it's destroyed.

[MisterKaws]

So he's a Dry Lich, but not really?

[Deox]

He's clearly some sort of weird non-core Lich, though.
First off, I don't think a normal one can have more than one phylactery, and killing Voldemort clearly has more of an affect on him than "he pops back 1D10 days later."

You can, but it requires the use of Epic Magic. Champions of Ruin has the spell, Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery, which can make additional phylacteries. Although it's epic magic, IIRC, the DC was very low, somewhere around 30.

[Malimar]

You can, but it requires the use of Epic Magic. Champions of Ruin has the spell, Aumvor's Fragmented Phylactery, which can make additional phylacteries. Although it's epic magic, IIRC, the DC was very low, somewhere around 30.

I forgot about that spell. The thread's first bit of evidence of Voldemort's epicness!

[Strigon]

I forgot about that spell. The thread's first bit of evidence of Voldemort's epicness!

Of course, it is somewhat tempered by the realization that his immortality is kind of crappy.
I mean, he lives, but he needs a new body, or else he lives as not much more than a consciousness - which is why I say he's a variant lich, rather than a normal one with an epic spell.

[Gildedragon]

Of course, it is somewhat tempered by the realization that his immortality is kind of crappy.
I mean, he lives, but he needs a new body, or else he lives as not much more than a consciousness - which is why I say he's a variant lich, rather than a normal one with an epic spell.

Particularly since his body doesn't reform; a special resurrection-light incantation needed to be cast for him to get a new body.
Also this lich variant lets the phylacteries be magic items

[Strigon]

Particularly since his body doesn't reform; a special resurrection-light incantation needed to be cast for him to get a new body.
Also this lich variant lets the phylacteries be magic items

And, for that matter, sentient beings.

Edit: Actually, can a Lich use a sentient being? I realize this is an awful idea, since those have a nasty tendency to die on you, but is it possible?

[InvisibleBison]

And, for that matter, sentient beings.

Edit: Actually, can a Lich use a sentient being? I realize this is an awful idea, since those have a nasty tendency to die on you, but is it possible?

The rules aren't entirely specific about what sort of objects a lich can use to make its phylactery, but it is clear that it has to be an object, not a creature. Which is a shame, otherwise two prospective liches could make each other into their phylacteries, which would make getting rid of them permanently much, much harder.

[Malimar]

The rules aren't entirely specific about what sort of objects a lich can use to make its phylactery, but it is clear that it has to be an object, not a creature. Which is a shame, otherwise two prospective liches could make each other into their phylacteries, which would make getting rid of them permanently much, much harder.

That sounds like the most romantic thing.

[Âmesang]

The spirit/possessing-aspect of his nature reminds me of the Suel Liches of Oerth (DRAGON #339, p.58).

Also, couldn't a theoretical "living phylactery" still kill himself? Greater good and all that.

[Gildedragon]

The spirit/possessing-aspect of his nature reminds me of the Suel Liches of Oerth (DRAGON #339, p.58).

Also, couldn't a theoretical "living phylactery" still kill himself? Greater good and all that.

Trick is getting a neutral person to be the phylactery, and make sure the person's life is quite comfortable.
Or make them unaware that you're using them to regenerate.

[Vinyadan]

I havn't read the books. Would he be a DMPC?

[GreyBlack]

I'd dispute this, though only to a limited extent. There are a couple effects in Harry Potter that are well modeled as 7th level spells, and the differences in casting mechanisms would likely justify a progression that capped at 7's over 20 levels instead of 9's.

Supporting this premise requires a detailed discussion of the high-end in HP magic, which requires some groundwork. It also requires some concept of what "D20 Harry Potter" might look like, to which I can propose in broad sketches.
I'll do the former first

Rowling provided a couple well defined examples of how the most powerful spells in the series work, but they are addressed primarily by implication and extra-textual discussion. Complicating the matter is that fanon often formed an idea of how this worked before all the evidence was available, and they are almost uniformly wrong.
If we exclude civic-works projects like the Floo network or the trace (which are probably better considered as well-planned, repeated, and broad implementations of less powerful spells), the two leading examples are:

The sacrificial protection Lily Potter gave Harry Potter at her death (and, from Rowling's extra-textual discussions, Harry gave the defenders of Hogwarts following his at the Battle of Hogwarts)
and Voldemort's curse on the Defense Against the Dark Arts Professorship

Because there is more granular evidence, I'll use the first as an example. This is something of a deep dive, so I'm spoilering it for length.

Our biggest hint for understanding of how the Sacrificial Protection in question works didn't come until after book 7, when Rowling started discussing the matter explicitly. Importantly, she also gives us a second example: she indicated in a discussion that -- after Harry walked to the forest to die -- he provided the same form of protection to the defenders of Hogwarts. As a result, she also indicates that none of the defenders of Hogwarts died in the battle after that point. The death eaters didn't have their spells deflected or burn by touching the defenders: they merely happened to fail at killing anyone else after the protection was in place.

This clears up an immense deal regarding the core nature of the protection, as well as the mechanism.
Mechanism:

Evil Person (V), Sacrifice (L), and Protected Person (H) must be involved.

H can apparently be more than one person.

V must make some form of offer to let Sacrifice L to trade their life for Protected Person(s) H.
L must choose to die to attempt to protect H.


Resulting Effect:

Primary: H is protected from V in a manner that is difficult to distinguish from chance/luck/fate.
Primary: This can be extended past its normal duration by a blood-relative of L (hereafter P) choosing to provide shelter for H while H is a minor (though it us unclear what additional steps are required to do so). After majority, the effect does not instantly end-- presumably it would linger or expire as it normally would have were this measure not present in the first place.

Secondary: An ancillary benefit of extending it in this manner is there are some degree of protections granted either P's home or family while P shelters H. This effect does seem to end promptly at majority (or possibly H moving out - it was important that the Dursley family go into hiding before Harry left Number 4 permanently). This bears the most resemblance to the idea of blood wards, but it is clearly secondary.

Secondary: V disintegrates when touching H, though this may require some confluence with other obscure magics (i.e. accidental horacrux implantation). This is also an effect of secondary importance.
Secondary: These protections also affect people acting in direct service to V (or some similar requirement) -- i.e. it covers Death Eaters.
Secondary: Magics that cause V to share H's blood (or possibly L's blood -- its unclear if the result was from taking Harry's blood because he was the protectee or because he was Lily's blood kin) can eliminate 4 but makes 1 more effective. This may also require confluence with other magics (2 above, horacrux, etc.)


Side notes:
When combined with the prophesy, the result is that if Harry and Voldemort came to a final confrontation while Lily's protection was still in place and there was a way Harry could win then Harry would win.
Voldemort never understood the primary effect. He demonstrated this when he use Harry blood in his resurrection: thus Dumbledore's "something like triumph." This is interesting, since it operates very similar to the cures on the defense position.

Short version: The most important effect of Lily's sacrificial protection is that it made chance/fate/luck/what-have-you bend over backwards to favor Harry over Voldemort.
The scope of this is reasonably close to that of Bestow Greater Curse. It's not a perfect match, but it matches tone and is a reasonable version of the other effect clause (while also being safely beyond the power level appropriate for Bestow Curse, at least by my estimation). The curse on the defense position maps to that relatively well too. Voldemort's quasi-resurrection and possession feats map well to the 5-6 range.
That's a 7th level spell for most lists, along with a couple just a level or two below that. It's not Limited Wish, but its still impressively high up there for an actual example in western fiction.


Moving from there, the question then becomes: at what level should Harry Potter Wizards get 7s?
Spoilering again for length

This is the part that requires sketching out some aspects of "D20 Harry Potter" and trying to reconcile it with D&D.

The HP magic system does not remotely match any of the common casting systems in D&D. Its skill based, so its best matches are likely epic casting and true-naming -- both of which are usually non-starters in practice.

Still, it's workable. Indeed, if we stick to a level 6 or 7 cap on spell level but remove any spell per day limitation it might well make allow for a reasonably balanced class.
It would not hold up to Tier 1's, especially in the presence of significant optimization (where they can bypass their spell limits and other similar balancing elements), but that level of optimization is never a good way to model fiction.
Such a caster could probably outperform a standard bard and would make for an interesting alternative to a sorcerer at any given level -- at least for certain kinds of games.
Short Version: Given the casting mechanic, HP Wizards being 1-2 spell levels behind primary casters at least eye-balls as a decent balance point (in the absence of optimization significantly greater than is normally assumed in modeling characters from fictional works).

The kink in such a conclusion is that the effects that map to 5th-through-7th level are uniformly triggered in a different way. The distinction seems to be relatively similar in kind to both the ritual casting alternate system in (if I recall) UA or to mitigating factors for epic spell-casting. In either case, it casts some doubt as to whether or not it is reasonable to consider those elements when trying to pin down level.

If you decide that you should consider those examples though, then the most powerful characters would need to follow suit. Voldemort, Dumbledore, and Lily Potter should reasonably be modeled at (relatively) high level under such constraints.
Harry, however, should not: it would be better to model him as carrying around an intangible artifact than to shoe-horn the effects of Lily's spell into his character proper.

Further side notes on a theoretical HP D20 system
The notes above omits the following: you would have to balance an entire new power system with a different core mechanic in order to do it.

Bridging the fundamental differences in what the two settings challenging. HP & the Natural 20 (referenced earlier in the thread) uses this as a major plot mover, and it is not wrong in doing so. In addition to the obvious things (the relative permanence of death, cosmology differences, basic levels of biological realism), there are also - for example - issues that only come up when look at how to handle individual monsters.

The most well trodden ground is a dementor. People are often tempted to make it some form of undead (because of the level drain and the movie depiction). That doesn't fit the canon though: canonically, dementors are unliving non-beings. Dementors are were never born and they never die. When large numbers of people are depressed, additional dementors of them just happen - more or less spontaneously. They are probably best represented as some cross between an endrich horror and a depression elemental. But the biggest issues is that they are canonically un-killable: wizards have tried.

Societies full of casters, the most powerful of which can manage something-like-7's in a pinch, have been unable to destroy a single Dementor despite concerted effort.

That does not mean that you can march your army of dementors through Sigil and take over (though they would make dang good foot soldiers), but it does mean that you're going to have to work really hard to fit such a creature into a D&D framework.

If they can't die, what does wining an encounter mean? Do you need to escape them? Force them to flee? Contain them?

They also eat emotions--which is easy to deal with (cf. Grey Jesters & Joystealers) -- and souls -- which are not. An unkillable, soul-eating monster potentially introduces a truly permanent death to D&D. That is a big change. If you choose to make it not truly permanent, what tools can get past it: Resurrection? True Resurrection? Wish/Miracle? SDAs?

Do those mechanisms destroy the dementor as a result? Do you need the dementor that ate the soul (the same way you need physical remains for some options).

If you actually wanted to run Harry Potter in D&D, you would likely need to go through each monster and spell in this manner.

The problem with this analysis is the sense of scale. The Fly and Greater Invisibility spell are considered "high level magic" in universe. I would argue that the examples you bring up (e.g. the Lily Potter thing) is more an example of the use of Ritual Magic and Divine Intervention. As such, I do feel we're better served through an examination of the spells used by the characters for greater textual analysis.

Good point on the Lichdom, though. I might argue that the Horcrux is actually a weaker version of Lichdom, given the need for an outside ritual to restore the Horcrux Lich to life. As such, perhaps level 9 might be a good place to put Voldy?

[Malimar]

The rules aren't entirely specific about what sort of objects a lich can use to make its phylactery, but it is clear that it has to be an object, not a creature. Which is a shame, otherwise two prospective liches could make each other into their phylacteries, which would make getting rid of them permanently much, much harder.That sounds like the most romantic thing.

Pish posh upon the RAW, it's such a sweet story that it's canon in my game now. The lich-queens Kade and Rana: Two necromancers who so loved each other that they somehow shared parts of their souls with each other, each making the other into their phylactery. When one was destroyed, her soul would temporarily reside within the other while a new body formed. It proved too difficult to destroy them both, and mortals were only spared their depredations after they grew bored of the world and traveled elsewhere.

[Ger. Bessa]

That sounds like the most romantic thing.

The fanfiction "Blessed" uses that, along with some characters deciding that the level cap of E6 is more a suggestion than a rule.

Voldy starts popping simulacra, Harry gets reincarnated into something with at-will SLAs, Hermione and one of Voldy's splits become each other's horcrux and at the end, Voldy goes template-stacking (to get some plant immunities and regen, mainly).

[Eldariel]

The problem with this analysis is the sense of scale. The Fly and Greater Invisibility spell are considered "high level magic" in universe. I would argue that the examples you bring up (e.g. the Lily Potter thing) is more an example of the use of Ritual Magic and Divine Intervention. As such, I do feel we're better served through an examination of the spells used by the characters for greater textual analysis.

I think you be able to produce a better analysis by starting from the differences in the magic systems and then try to create a parallel system inside 3e. Different things are extraordinarily complex in the HPverse Magic than in D&D. Thus you have to cherrypick. Like, most of Potterverse Transmutation is way more versatile and open than anything D&D Wizards get before Polymorph Any Object, and the limitations are still somewhat different. The Killing Curse's closest analogue is a rayified Power Word: Death (and quite probably nothing in the Potterverse can get over 150HP/there's no such limit). They obviously have Warlock-levels of sustainability right off the bat, but with a lot more and more varied invocations. Thus I think you'll find a better result if you instead build upon the Wanded Warlock chassis and add things as necessary, seeing where they fall. Perhaps a level ~15 Warlock* would be a decent analogue for someone of Voldemort's power, but with far weaker item creation capabilities (mostly limited to Potions). Perhaps a level 14 Sorcerer with cherrypicked spells could come close (or 16 if wanting to include PAO). Wizard doesn't really work; they have way too many natural restrictions in preparation compared to a Potterverse caster.

[Hecuba]

I would argue that the examples you bring up (e.g. the Lily Potter thing) is more an example of the use of Ritual Magic and Divine Intervention.
I agree (and actually noted above) that Ritual magic makes a good model for those as well. At that point, however, we're merely disagreeing on were to draw the line despite agreeing on basic logic.

I still think the ability to cast 7s at least in some context fits for Voldemort. The curse on the defence position has, more or less, the same primary effect and does not involve any self-sacrifice to facilitate.


The problem with this analysis is the sense of scale. The Fly and Greater Invisibility spell are considered "high level magic" in universe.
[...] As such, I do feel we're better served through an examination of the spells used by the characters for greater textual analysis. I would say that method is immensely problematic. It focuses on elements that are a matter of the two systems judging the value of specific effects differently.

Flight is not high level, flight without an accoutrement is: brooms of flying and magic carpets (both of which would need fly to make in D&D) are routine enough that they are produced at a scale large enough to warrant model designations. Invisibility is hard, but a spell that provides a hide bonus that (if the spell is well executed) can grant HiPS is much easier.

Such examples should be actively avoided in any attempt to peg a level for common effects: it's the same basic principle that would lead us to NOT attempt to model inanimate-to-animate transfiguration as PAO merely because it is the lowest level spell that can do it.



Good point on the Lichdom, though. I might argue that the Horcrux is actually a weaker version of Lichdom, given the need for an outside ritual to restore the Horcrux Lich to life. As such, perhaps level 9 might be a good place to put Voldy?

It also has tangential benefits. The ability to have more than one would be limited to a lich with Epic magic in 3.5, while Voldemort Dire it substantially earlier. Horacruxes also get some offensive and defensive elements that normal a phylactery lacks. Finally, the longer retun issue is at least partially offset by the ability to wander around as a spirit and possess people in the interim: Voldemort clearly can do so, even if he preferred to laze about in Albania for some reason.

[Gildedragon]

Wasn't that because that's where his vampire followers were. Followers that could do the rituals to strengthen his soulform

[Hecuba]

Wasn't that because that's where his vampire followers were. Followers that could do the rituals to strengthen his soulform

No: as far as I know, there is nothing in canon or Rowling's comments to that effect. There is no indication, in fact, that Voldemort had any Vampires in his service. The closest we come to that is Quirrel's cover story for what he did in Albania.

Indeed, Rowling deliberately avoided significantly using actual Vampires because she thought it moved too far form a British tone (Vampires being heavily tired to Eastern European folklore and all).

The actual (partially metafictional) reason was likely that, during the period in question, Albania had become immensely isolationist and closed its borders to an extent greater even than most other Eastern Block countries. Voldemort went to Albania so that he could lie low in a place that was hard for Dumbledore to investigate.

For the 80s and early 90s UK, Albania was conceptually somewhere relatively close in distance but still immensely hard to get into. Not quite the Darién Gap, but it works.

As to why he didn't just possess a series of muggles while there and use them to contact his followers, plan his resurrection, and facilitate his own return...

[atemu1234]

I think the Potterverse is run in E6.

I agree. There's nothing to indicate a high-level magic in D&D, but I would also say that instead of a fort/ref/will save I'd say that there are static numbers versus static numbers (IE, 10 + Fort Bonus + Con bonus for fortitude, as opposed to a save bonus, opposed by 10 + Spell level + Casting stat + wand bonus). That would explain why Voldemort can consistently kill other characters with a spell. It's hard to model the Love thing for harry with d20.


No: as far as I know, there is nothing in canon or Rowling's comments to that effect. There is no indication, in fact, that Voldemort had any Vampires in his service. The closest we come to that is Quirrel's cover story for what he did in Albania.

Indeed, Rowling deliberately avoided significantly using actual Vampires because she thought it moved too far form a British tone (Vampires being heavily tired to Eastern European folklore and all).

The actual (partially metafictional) reason was likely that, during the period in question, Albania had become immensely isolationist and closed its borders to an extent greater even than most other Eastern Block countries. Voldemort went to Albania so that he could lie low in a place that was hard for Dumbledore to investigate.

For the 80s and early 90s UK, Albania was conceptually somewhere relatively close in distance but still immensely hard to get into. Not quite the Darién Gap, but it works.

As to why he didn't just possess a series of muggles while there and use them to contact his followers, plan his resurrection, and facilitate his own return...

... I'd say he needed time to recover his strength, and until he had someone he knew he could manipulate completely trust he knew telling his followers would lead to him being discovered and possibly killed earlier.

[Gildedragon]

the 3.0 Spell (in Tome and Blood) Hide Life can be used several times to emulate the Horcuxes; it doesn't change V's type to undead, and does make his post Lilly Potter state... odd to emulate (though perhaps his body was disintegrated so one gets a "not bodied but not dead" state, which was the one he was in)