Countersong: What if?

[Crake]

So I've been having a long hard think about countersong, and ways it could be improved. As it is currently, it is a very niche ability, and requires either the bard to be singing beforehand, or to pass their own save on the effect at hand. An easy fix to this is of course making it an immediate action to use, though the 400gp countersong charm from the magic item compendium does already exist for that purpose, albeit 1/day each, you can always have a few on hand and swap them out once you use your first.

But what if the bard could use countersong to actively counter spells, using their ranks in perform as their bonus to their dispel check instead of their caster level, with any other bonuses to dispel checks still applying, such as dispel chords or the inquisition domain.

Intially I was thinking this ability would only apply to sonic or language dependant spells, though afterwards I thought that the scope is still likely too low to matter, so instead, why not allow countersong to counter any spell with a verbal component, OR sonic/language dependant spells without verbal components? Combining this with immediate actions is rather powerful admittedly, especially seeing how many songs per day a bard gets, so I was wondering how the playground thinks this ability would work to give countersong a little boost to being a more enjoyable and selectable option?

[MesiDoomstalker]

It be a very powerful ability to Counter any spells with Verbal components. Honestly, I'd give it the ability as an Immediate Action and leave at that, you get a useful but niche ability. Not every ability needs to be super useful.

[Crake]

It be a very powerful ability to Counter any spells with Verbal components. Honestly, I'd give it the ability as an Immediate Action and leave at that, you get a useful but niche ability. Not every ability needs to be super useful.

In case it wasn't clear, it's not an automatic counter, still requiring a dispel check, if that makes you feel differently about it?

Also, what about just being able to counter sonic and language dependant spells then? That way countersong could actually help with spells like the blasphemy line wheras currently even if you could use it as an immediate action, it does nothing for them, since there's no save.

[MesiDoomstalker]

In case it wasn't clear, it's not an automatic counter, still requiring a dispel check, if that makes you feel differently about it?

Also, what about just being able to counter sonic and language dependant spells then? That way countersong could actually help with spells like the blasphemy line wheras currently even if you could use it as an immediate action, it does nothing for them, since there's no save.

If it's an Imm. Action, still required a Dispel check, only affected [Sonic] and [Language Dependent] spells/effects, then its a useful but niche ability. If it affected any spell with a Verbal component, then you get a catch-all Counter technique that comes online level 1 and you get a ton of a day and in general better dispel package without any actual investment (which Dispelling normally does).

[Crake]

If it's an Imm. Action, still required a Dispel check, only affected [Sonic] and [Language Dependent] spells/effects, then its a useful but niche ability. If it affected any spell with a Verbal component, then you get a catch-all Counter technique that comes online level 1 and you get a ton of a day and in general better dispel package without any actual investment (which Dispelling normally does).

Yeah, I thought it might be a bit over the top being able to counter anything with a verbal component, so I'll go with my gut feeling on that. I'll ask my players what they think about it.

[Gallowglass]

But what if the bard could use countersong to actively counter spells, using their ranks in perform as their bonus to their dispel check instead of their caster level, with any other bonuses to dispel checks still applying, such as dispel chords or the inquisition domain.

That part is troubling. let's assume the bard is going to pick their highest available perform ability, its likely to be several ranks higher than their character level. +3 for the general rule, +x for traits and feats, +x for masterwork performance items, +x for spells or items affecting perform ability. Then you still get to add dispel bonuses like dispel chords and the inquisition domain...

It seems like the countersinger would quickly become the greatest counterspelling tool in the toolkit, able to effectively and routinely counterspell any spell being cast by a much higher level enemy combatant.

Not that that's a bad thing, but it seems like it should be niched as an alternate class feature or something rather than a general rule replacement.

[Kelvarius]

That part is troubling. let's assume the bard is going to pick their highest available perform ability, its likely to be several ranks higher than their character level. +3 for the general rule, +x for traits and feats, +x for masterwork performance items, +x for spells or items affecting perform ability. Then you still get to add dispel bonuses like dispel chords and the inquisition domain...

It seems like the countersinger would quickly become the greatest counterspelling tool in the toolkit, able to effectively and routinely counterspell any spell being cast by a much higher level enemy combatant.

Not that that's a bad thing, but it seems like it should be niched as an alternate class feature or something rather than a general rule replacement.

I know s/he's not an official source, but going by RAW of this homebrew, it states specifically ranks. Not modifier. So it would still be level +3, but that's all unless there's some strange high op fu I'm unaware of.

[Gallowglass]

I know s/he's not an official source, but going by RAW of this homebrew, it states specifically ranks. Not modifier. So it would still be level +3, but that's all unless there's some strange high op fu I'm unaware of.

Good point. It seems like most skill enhancing feats, tricks and equipment presents as "a bonus to your skill" rather than "skill ranks", So if that's what Crake meant then that's not as troubling as first blush. Still, level +3 will still make you 15% better than a normal wizard of your level using dispel magic to counterspell.

[illyahr]

There is an ACF from Complete Mage called Spellbreaker Song that might be what you're looking for.


Bards pride themselves on being masters of language and sound. A rare few learn to use their voices to interfere with enemy spellcasters, twisting word and sound to defeat spells before they are cast.

Class: Bard.

Level: 1st.

Special Requirement: Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, Perform (any) 3 ranks.

Replaces: You do not gain the countersong bardic music ability.

Benefit: You can use your music or poetics to interfere with spells that have verbal components. Doing this costs one daily use of your bardic music ability and requires a standard action to start. Enemy spellcasters within 30 feet of you take a 20% spell failure chance when casting any spell that has a verbal component (as if they were deafened). You can maintain your spellbreaker song for 3 rounds.

This ability follows all the other appropriate rules for bardic music.

[AnimeTheCat]

There is an ACF from Complete Mage called Spellbreaker Song that might be what you're looking for.

Originally Posted by Spellbreaker Song

Bards pride themselves on being masters of language and sound. A rare few learn to use their voices to interfere with enemy spellcasters, twisting word and sound to defeat spells before they are cast.

Class: Bard.

Level: 1st.

Special Requirement: Knowledge (arcana) 1 rank, Perform (any) 3 ranks.

Replaces: You do not gain the countersong bardic music ability.

Benefit: You can use your music or poetics to interfere with spells that have verbal components. Doing this costs one daily use of your bardic music ability and requires a standard action to start. Enemy spellcasters within 30 feet of you take a 20% spell failure chance when casting any spell that has a verbal component (as if they were deafened). You can maintain your spellbreaker song for 3 rounds.

This ability follows all the other appropriate rules for bardic music.

I like this a lot. I never even knew this was a thing. Is there any RAW way to augment that above 20%? If so, this has such beautiful potential to boost the utility of the already utility heavy class. I like this so much.

[Nibbens]

I like it! Having a built in counterspell for language dependent/sonic spells is really cool.

Here's a thought. I know in PF (can't remember how it is in 3.X) if you're utilizing versatile performance, you'll wind up with several perform skills on top of your primary.

So... piggybacking off this idea, what if you could utilize different perform skills to modify the saves of / counter-spell (seriously, countering might be a little rough for this idea) different types of spell with certain spell descriptors.

for example:
Perform: Oratory or Comedy would effect emotion effecting spells.
Perform: wind instrument could effect wind effecting spells.
Perform: Drum could effect vibration type spells (earthquake, shatter, etc (I don't think vibration is a spell descriptor, but meh - I'm just spitballing)
Perform: Sing could effect fear type spells.

You could go on an on here.

Just my two copper. :smallcool:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Countersong's greatest problem after what you identified (needing it as an immediate or the bard to pass his save first) is that it doesn't work on by far the most devastating sonic set of spells in the game -- Blasphemy and its kin -- since they don't even allow saves, and Countersong does nothing beyond a save replacement.

Countersong should be able to shut down any sonic or language-dependent attack, spell or otherwise. Full stop.
That and the problem the OP identified, and i think it'd be fine.

[weckar]

One thing that's Always bothered me about countersong: how do we justify it with non-musical bards? (3.5, pretty sure pathfinder actually solves this)

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Comedy: Dispeller? I hardly know 'er!
Oratory: Oy! Bird-brains! Pay attention!
Dancing:
http://i.imgur.com/Ltg3sTv.gif

Dancing, in my mind, is the hardest one to justify, but if it can make a sound (tap dancing, anyone?), it's not too hard to justify.