Alternative Uses For Spell slots

[Bobby Baratheon]

The character concept of a karsite sorcerer has been bounced around before (including on this very forum), but I'm interested in making an actual playable version of this. Obviously we're not going to get any where near Pun Pun territory on this one, but I think there are some ways to make this concept workable, and not be a total flop. The idea here is to find effective alternative uses for spell slots and have a decent enough chassis to be relevant in melee. I shall dub this build the karcerer; I'm aiming for a melee oriented build but I'm open to other options.

This is what I have thought of so far:
-Blue Dragon Lineage: IMO this is underrated, as it directly scales with Charisma, functionally grants multiple attacks in a round, makes no mention of SR or fortitude-saves-for-half, and scales in effectiveness with level. A sorcerer with Charisma 24 (feasible at level one with the right race/template choices) can get (1d6 + 7) electricity damage per level of the spell being given up. When you need guaranteed damage, this is a surpisingly effective choice. The main downsides are the limited range (30 feet) and that the damage is of an energy type (electricity) rather than untyped.
-Draconic breath: situationally better than the Blue Dragon Lineage, and advanced by Dragonheart mage.
-Dragonheart mage (to advance the former's effectiveness while not losing too much)
-Being a dragonspawn: the LA hurts, but the perks and the free sorcerer level outweigh it IMO. If I can't talk the DM into a lesser blue dragonspawn (identical to white dragonspawn except energy type), I'll probably ditch it as LA +4 is just too much. If karsite gets reduced to LA +1 or the "lesser" karsite becomes available, I might consider taking Blue Dragonspawn as is. Those bonuses are just so sweet. . .
-On that note, I think being a Karsite spellcaster arguably presents a case for reducing the LA by one. It's such a massively stupid self nerf that I can't see a reasonable DM forcing the +2 LA. If needed, I suppose I could make a "lesser" karsite by losing the dispel ability and the proficiencies.
-Stalwart Battle Sorcerer: It works in my group, so take that particular debate elsewhere. The downsides aren't really all that bad for a non-spell using spellcaster, and it gives you a nice d8+2 hp every level, which is more or less on par with a d12 HD. Also, proficiencies are nice, as is a free weapon focus.
-Magic blooded template
-Arcane Strike: would need DM's permission, but it's not all that cheesy on this build and amps up the karcerer's damage output, which he desperately needs.
-Unseelie Fey, if only because Winter's Chill has pretty awesome synergy with Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and death by massive damage. Taking the arbitrarily high Cha modifier of the karcerer as a penalty on a save-or-die effect is never fun for the opposition.
-Reserve feats by RAW are off the table (IIRC) but I think they would be pretty fair on this build.
-Multiclassing warlock/eldritch theurge (would need DM permission)
-Picking up binding via feats and multiclassing into anima mage (ditto)
-Picking up a level of cleric for turn attempts, and then converting those into useful things (like divine might and its ilk)
-Any of the more useful draconic feats

What other ways can I maximize this gimped build's potential and make it into a viable character? Fluffwise, I'm imagining a sorcerer who has a block on his ability to cast spells persay (because he's a karsite, and unaware of that fact) but has learned to channel his arcane power into other abilities. My interpretation of being an unseelie fey and a karsite would be that he has natural power, but it's blocked by his karsite heritage. I don't want to go too overboard with multiclassing, and I don't want to pick up spellcasting by becoming a spellscale or the other methods of losing your racial traits. What are your thoughts, playground? How can I make this work?

[Mr Adventurer]

There's an ACF in... Dungeonscape? That lets you spend spell slots on reducing damage. Not sure it's compatible with Stalwart though.

[Troacctid]

You would want Favored Soul, Beguiler, or Dread Necromancer instead of Sorcerer. They give the same spells per day, but on a much better chassis (or in the case of Dread Necromancer, basically the same chassis with better class features).

[ShurikVch]

There are a bunch of probably relevant stuff (I don't sure how well it may work for karsite; some of them required multiclassing, but all of them are "burn spell slot for something which isn't spellcasting"):

PrCs:
Abjurant Champion 4: Arcane Boost
Archmage: High Arcana
Combat Medic 5: Spontaneous Heal
Daggerspell Mage 7: Arcane Infusion
Dracolexi 8: Voice in Silence
Dweomerkeeper 4: Supernatural Spell
Elder Druid (Dr#286) 8: Elder Druid Blade
Enlightened Fist 5: Arcane Rejuvenation
Jade Phoenix Mage 1: Arcane Wrath
Jade Phoenix Mage 2: Mystic Phoenix Stance
Jade Phoenix Mage 6: Firebird Stance
Knight of the Weave 6: Spellfire (healing)
Knight of the Weave 10: Spellfire (blasting)
Magical Trickster 1: Spontaneous Trickster
Noctumancer 2: Innate Counterspell
Ordained Champion 3: Divine Bulwark
Ordained Champion 4: Fist of the Gods
Shadowbane Inquisitor 2: Sacred Stealth
Shadowbane Stalker 1: Sacred Stealth
Shadowbane Stalker 4: Sacred Defense
Shadowbane Stalker 10: Sacred Strike
Shadowstriker 2: Sun's Blessing
Shadowstriker 3: Surge of Piety
Soulcaster 10: Magical Distillation
Soulguard 1: Pierce Deception
Soulguard 2: Divine Rebuke
Stormcaster 1: Thunderclap
Wild Mage 9: Reckless Dweomer

Feats:
Arcane Accompaniment
Arcane Flourish
Arcane Toughness
Ascetic Mage
Cannibalize Spell (Dr#349)
Channel Charge
Dampen Spell
Defensive Magic (Dr#351)
Draconic Arcane Grace
Celestial Sorcerer Aura
Celestial Sorcerer Lance
Celestial Sorcerer Wings
Infernal Sorcerer Eyes
Infernal Sorcerer Howl
Invest Spell (Dr#338)
Mystic Focus (Dr#349)
Netherese Battle Curse
Recharge Staff (Dr#338)

[WhamBamSam]

If you're going for Draconic feats anyway, the 4th Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level will let you skirt your Spellcasting Inability by giving you one of your low-level spells as a SLA. Assuming Spellcasting Inability doesn't prevent you from qualifying for PrCs (something of an assumption, but let's make it), then Archmage will do this as well.

Even if you could take the 1st Dragonblood Sorcerer sub level, you're probably better off with the familiar. Improved Familiar is a good way to go if you're not getting anything else out of your spellcaster level.

You can get a Domain Granted Power for the price of restricting a few of your spells known to the spells from the domain in question.

[Bobby Baratheon]

@ShurikVch: I'm going to look through those when I get the chance, but which ones do you recommend? Which of the feats listed are the most meaningful options? Thanks a ton for the list!!!! This gives me a lot to work with.

@Whambamsam: That's an intriguing option I hadn't really given much though to. Which domain powers are the most worthwhile? Travel seems like it would be useful if not a worldbeating option.
I was considering taking the Dragonblooded sub level - does it interact normally with Battle Sorc and Stalwart Sorc? If so it'd be an efficient way to get the ball rolling on the draconic feats.

[ShurikVch]

@ShurikVch: I'm going to look through those when I get the chance, but which ones do you recommend? Which of the feats listed are the most meaningful options? Thanks a ton for the list!!!! This gives me a lot to work with.It's depend on a lot of things:
which role you plan to play - close combat, support...
with what you agree to multiclass - Ascetic Mage required Monk, some of PrCs need divine casting...
if prerequisite is spellcasting, can you even qualify to it with Spellcasting Inability?

Most obvious suggestions -

PrCs:
Archmage - Arcane Fire is nice to fry enemies, and SLAs should work by RAW
Dweomerkeeper - Supernatural Spell is still OP (if works at all)
Jade Phoenix Mage - even without spells you still far from helpless
Stormcaster - one level dip allow you to throw around thunder

Feats:
Channel Charge, Invest Spell, and Recharge Staff are strong, because they make you almost into Artificer-light
Cannibalize Spell allow to turn spell slot into power points, which is awesome for Cerebremancer or Mind Mage

[WhamBamSam]

@Whambamsam: That's an intriguing option I hadn't really given much though to. Which domain powers are the most worthwhile? Travel seems like it would be useful if not a worldbeating option.
I was considering taking the Dragonblooded sub level - does it interact normally with Battle Sorc and Stalwart Sorc? If so it'd be an efficient way to get the ball rolling on the draconic feats.Unfortunately you don't seem to get to treat your Sorc level as a Cleric level for the purpose of your Domain power, which squelches a lot of them, including Travel. For a Karsite build, maybe Hunger to get an extra attack (unless you're getting a bite from your other Draconic stuff) to serve as a vector for Magic Draining Attacks. If you've already got a bunch of natural weapons, maybe Demonic. Celerity would grant +10 to your movement speed. One of the versions of the Sun Domain gives Turn Undead which could be used to fuel divine feats (could be argued that it's not the current version, but the most recent thing printed as the Sun Domain is very different). A few grant bonus feats, the best of which is probably Improved Initiative from the Time Domain unless you need Point Blank Shot or Blind-Fight or whatever to qualify for something. Retribution might be worth it, depending how your DM rules it to actually work (whether it's a standard action to make the Retribution attack or it triggers automatically when you get hit). Pride, Luck, or Destiny might be cool if dice have a tendency to hate you or your friends.

I'd say that Dragonblood Sorcerer should play nicely with Stalwart Battle Sorcerer, since it trades away different things. Even if you do qualify for Dragonblood Sorcerer 1 (which you won't as a Karsite without some manner of shenanigan), I'd say probably just take the familiar and spend a feat on Draconic Heritage to start up whatever Draconic feat setup you're going for.

[Troacctid]

You could just be a cleric, if you want domain powers. I mean, it doesn't actually matter what your spell list is if you're not casting them anyway, right? And the spontaneous variant actually has more spell slots than a sorcerer, IIRC.

[MisterKaws]

Some of you are forgetting some important points:

Karsite Sorcerers cannot qualify for anything that has "Able to cast Nth level spells" as a requirement, not until ECL 14, where they can use SLA Arcane Fusion to TO over the racial restriction.

Anything other than a Sorcerer would have roughly 15% of the means to use the spell slots.

Multiclassing into non-casters takes away the point of it.


That out of the way, the build could potentially work, given the right options are selected. Here is some stuff you must get at all means for it to at least work.

ACFs: Stalwart Sorcerer(CM), Battle Sorcerer(UA), Spell Shield(DgS), Spell-Like Ability(RotD), Domain Access.

Feats: Draconic Heritage(CM), Draconic Breath(CM), Blue Dragon Lineage(CM), Obtain Familiar(CArc), Improved Familiar(CW version, Winter Wolf, possibly on Drakken form if you like it), Arcane Strike(CW)(only at 12th), Spell-Linked Familiar(only if you get to 15th, for the Wings of Cover abuse).

Max-power Dragonpact(DM).

[Bobby Baratheon]

Karsite Sorcerers cannot qualify for anything that has "Able to cast Nth level spells" as a requirement, not until ECL 14, where they can use SLA Arcane Fusion to TO over the racial restriction.

This is a valid point, but as the character doesn't actually cast spells I think the DM will be cool with allowing normal casting prestige classes so long as I explain my intentions beforehand and don't try for anything too sneaky. Also, the dearth of sorcerer class features will probably convince the DM to let me take some prestige classes.

That said, Green Star Adept comes to mind as one that could be potentially useful. I'm looking for melee/close range oriented stuff, but anything else would be great too. So far the base of this build is going to be Dragonblooded/Stalwart Battle Sorc plus arcane strike and blue dragon lineage. I think we're starting at level seven, btw, but I need to check again. I might pick up a level in fighter or a TOB class, but that depends on whether I need it or not. Race wise, I'm thinking unseelie fey/magic blooded karsite (hopefully with the LA talked down to +1). I'm debating using the savage progressions version of the half fey template in order to get a metric ton of SLAs and charm person at will.

[MisterKaws]

Just do a Dragonpact while full sorcerer and you'll get a metric ton of SLAs with no LA.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Just do a Dragonpact while full sorcerer and you'll get a metric ton of SLAs with no LA.

The savage progressions version is a level you take rather than actual LA. It's debatable whether its strictly better or worse than the LA half fey template, especially since one level nets you charm person at will (among other things). How many classes grant something like that in a one level dip?

[MisterKaws]

The savage progressions version is a level you take rather than actual LA. It's debatable whether its strictly better or worse than the LA half fey template, especially since one level nets you charm person at will (among other things). How many classes grant something like that in a one level dip?

And that one level dip will make you lose all benefits of having 9th level slots.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Not necessarily - if I can talk the LA on karsite down to one, and don't take any other templates with LA, there's no reason why I'd lose more than one casting level from taking one level of the half fey template.

Also, do karsites qualify for human paragon? If so, that could be nifty.

[MisterKaws]

Also, do karsites qualify for human paragon? If so, that could be nifty.

Yup, subraces can get main race paragons just fine.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Sweet! I might pick that over the half fey thing, since feats are going to be pretty valuable on this build.

[Thurbane]

There's an ACF in... Dungeonscape? That lets you spend spell slots on reducing damage. Not sure it's compatible with Stalwart though.

Spell Shield - you lose your familiar. If you still get a familiar with Stalwart, no reason you couldn't take this as well.

[Pyromancer999]

One thing not to forget is you get light and medium armor proficiency as well as simple and martial weapon proficiency from Karsite, which is definitely useful for a sorcerer that doesn't have to worry about Arcane spell failure and intends to go the Stalwart Battle Sorcerer route.

Another thing the Karsite Sorcerer(or Karcerer) is somewhat good at that many people haven't noted is magic item crafting. Given that it's not going to be casting spells(aside from whatever's useful for an SLA from the Dragonblood 4th level substitution level ability), while it's still not going to be as good at crafting as an Artificer, it is a bit more viable to take spells that would be good for magic item creation, such as creating golems or something maybe. Could just learn spells that make nice wands/scrolls and cast that way, as nothing in the Karsite spell-ban ability says they can't use magic items. Granted, could be wrong, but still could be nice for the party.

Also, if you intend on using Dragonheart Mage in this build, given that your DM seems to be allowing you to qualify for prestige classes as though you could cast spells of the levels you have spell slots in, I would suggest also taking both a Dragonpact(mentioned earlier by someone else, gets you a boatload of SLAs), and take levels in Pact-Bound Adept. Even if you can talk your DM into adjusting LA to just +1, taking Dragonheart Mage for all 10 levels(which I'm presuming you are, as it seems like you wanted to max out your breath weapon), that puts you at casting as a 17th level sorcerer. Now, you could just take 1 level of Pact-Bound Adept, and boost the benefits your Dragonpact from your 8th level slot as though you'd sacrificed a 9th level slot, and still count as a 16th level sorcerer(or 8th level from a 7th level slot, if you can't get the LA reduction and count as a 15th level sorcerer). However, while taking all 5 levels does demote you to a 15th level sorcerer(or 14th if you can't get the LA reduction), but gets you 9th level spell sacrifice benefits from a 7th level spell slot, plus allows you to enter a second dragonpact for even more SLAs. I would suggest Unbridled Fury of the Storm(Blue dragon pact, gets you a bunch of Lightning-based SLAs, capping out with a Maximized Lightning Storm) or Tyrant of the Desert Sun(Gets you a couple illusion SLAs, along with a self-buff and debuff SLA, capping off with Sunbeam for the final) for your first pact, given you have a whole Blue Dragon-love thing going on with this character, and then have the second pact(if you take all 5 levels) be used to add some additional capability to your Sorcerer.

One more note is that for the 4th level Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level, there are some spells that can be fueled or improved by expending spell slots, although main one that may interest you for some self-healing would be Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords(5th level spell). Use that and expend a spell slot to heal 5d6 + (1d6 x level of spell slot sacrificed) hp.

[Bobby Baratheon]

@Pyromancer999 - thanks! I hadn't really thought of crafting - that could be a very productive way of staying useful. That gives me an idea with Alchemist Savant - spellvials would give me a decent combat option, especially with a versatile spell like elemental dart. Putting some emphasis on wand usage would also give me more options to play with. Cannith Wand Adept could be useful here, especially since A) losing caster levels isn't that painful, and proper wand selection plus the benefits of CWA + Wand Mastery will alleviate that and B) My groups tends to ignore setting specific prereqs like Dragonmarks.

I'm thinking that I could make use of the karcerer's naturally high charisma and go for some fear effects. Dreadful Wrath and Imperious Command could be a fairly powerful combo.

EDIT: Anima Mage + Karsus could prove useful for the wands as well (extra CL).

[Pyromancer999]

@Pyromancer999 - thanks! I hadn't really thought of crafting - that could be a very productive way of staying useful. That gives me an idea with Alchemist Savant - spellvials would give me a decent combat option, especially with a versatile spell like elemental dart. Putting some emphasis on wand usage would also give me more options to play with. Cannith Wand Adept could be useful here, especially since A) losing caster levels isn't that painful, and proper wand selection plus the benefits of CWA + Wand Mastery will alleviate that and B) My groups tends to ignore setting specific prereqs like Dragonmarks.


More (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Player_Guide_to_Crafting_%283.5e_Optimized_Charact er_Build%29#Feats) on (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2829.0) crafting (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0). Couple key things are to take both Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan feats if you can, as they reduce the gold and XP cost respectively of crafting by 25%, which is good for someone relying on their own crafted wands to cast. Also, if you take Craft Wondrous Item and don't mind being able to create a narrow range of constructs, Effigy Master lets you easily craft Effigy versions of whatever creature you like as minions. Additionally, remember wands do cap out at level 4, so you're dependent on scroll-crafting for higher-level spells.

Also, while caster levels being lost does hurt less, the Karcerer still does need a decent caster level for two reasons:

1) SLAs: If you intend to do a Dragonpact and/or take the 4th level Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level, the SLA level from Dragonblood and both frequency and number of SLAs from the Dragonpact depend on the spell slot sacrificed. So, caster levels being lost do hinder the power of those two.

2) Spell-slot expenditure abilities: Spell slot expenditure abilities are usually dependent on the level of the spell slot expent. Losing too many caster levels can majorly lower the power of said abilities.



EDIT: Anima Mage + Karsus could prove useful for the wands as well (extra CL).

Agreed. Additionally, if you want to ditch the sorcerer focus(although that is kind of against the premise of the optimization), you can always go Knight of the Sacred Seal is always good, advancing binding alongside full BAB and a d10 hit die, with easy prerequisites, and at 5th level, the capstone lets you ignore the time limit on Karsus's touch.

[Mr Adventurer]

Additionally, if you want to ditch the sorcerer focus(although that is kind of against the premise of the optimization), you can always go Knight of the Sacred Seal is always good, advancing binding alongside full BAB and a d10 hit die, with easy prerequisites, and at 5th level, the capstone lets you ignore the time limit on Karsus's touch.

This gives me the idea (not original, I'm sure) of binding Karsus to make a pseudo-gish with that item use.

Whatever qualifies/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/...um, Witch Hunter 5?/Occult Slayer 5?

[WhamBamSam]

If you're going to be an Anima Mage anyway, you probably don't need to bother with Item Creation feats. Just bind Astaroth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) on crafting days.

[Pyromancer999]

This gives me the idea (not original, I'm sure) of binding Karsus to make a pseudo-gish with that item use.

Whatever qualifies/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/...um, Witch Hunter 5?/Occult Slayer 5?

The issue with that build is that it needs as high of a Binder level as possible in order to be able to pseudo-cast with magic items, unless you're fine with capping out at 5th level spells. Granted, Binder 9/Ranger(Arcane Hunter variant, gets you all Arcane Spellcasting creatures as enemies) 1/KotSS 5/Occult Slayer 2 is a nice binding build with some anti-arcane abilities, while still capable of using 9th level spells from items, and 17 BAB. If you don't care about Binder level as much, or intend to compensate through feats, you can exchange 3 levels of Binder to go Occult Slayer 5, although would still need to take Improved Binding twice to be able to keep 9th level spell capability, or at least have a very good UMD bonus. Also, the Mage Slayer line of feats never hurts if you intend to further the anti-spellcaster focus.


If you're going to be an Anima Mage anyway, you probably don't need to bother with Item Creation feats. Just bind Astaroth (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a) on crafting days.

If re-training is allowed, one or two item creation feats couldn't hurt. If you go Anima Mage with full sorcerer + binding feats to qualify, Astaroth doesn't come online till 12th level, which is a bit late to come to the crafting table. Might not be the worst idea even if retraining isn't allowed.