Plane Shift: Zendikar (Magic the Gathering/DnD Crossover Supplement)

[Hawk7915]

check it out here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/plane-shift-zendikar-2016-04-27)

I for one could not be more pumped to see them putting out a FREE campaign guide to one of Magic: The Gathering's neatest settings. Not a ton here; no fancy alternate classes or rules for utilizing mana in place of spells per day or planeswalkers as PCs. Just races and a few new monsters as well as rules for "fudging" Eldrazi and some of Zendikar's more exotic beasties using the existing monster manual.

At a glance, Vampires seem a bit underwhelming as a race, Goblins feel extremely different from standard fantasy (appropriately so) which makes it hard to use this race in other settings, and Kor look like a stone-cold awesome race with a ton of great proficiencies and perks.

[Regitnui]

Whoohoo! I haven't read it, but the only question I have is "why did this take so long?" I love Zendikar! It now may even outpace Eberron as my favourite setting... *fanboying*

[Hawk7915]

Having skimmed in a little more detail, I like it but there's a few things I would have appreciated a little more of...

1) Campaign hooks - both pre, mid, and post-Battle for Zendikar. I can imagine well enough, but its always appreciated.

2) I can roll with just using various random abberations with extra traits as run of the mill Eldrazi, but not having specific stats for the three titans just feels wrong. Granted, I can't imagine any campaign really focusing on "killing" a titan, but still.

3) Equipment, specifically stats or guidelines for the Kor Ropes and Grapples, Gideon's Surral, and the two-bladed swords of many Vampire Bloodchiefs. Also Hedron-powered weapons.

4) Advice for how the "Roil" (for pre-BFZ) might impact adventuring on the plane.

[Belac93]

I'm a little confused about this. Should it be treated like another UA, a players guide, or homebrew?

[Regitnui]

I'm a little confused about this. Should it be treated like another UA, a players guide, or homebrew?

WotC homebrew. It's the other major property getting to add to D&D.

Apparently quest hooks and stuff is in the $400 book Art of Magic: the Gathering - Zendikar.

[Hawk7915]

WotC homebrew. It's the other major property getting to add to D&D.

Apparently quest hooks and stuff is in the $400 book Art of Magic: the Gathering - Zendikar.

$25 on Amazon...WotC is a monster sometimes and that's pretty high price for a coffee table book (imo at least) but not that unreasonable :smalltongue:. I missed that part in the initial write-up though. Maybe I'll hunt down the book.

I am hoping we get a Innistrad setting guide too. There's less exciting races there (Werewolves, though!) but its also a great, fun setting.

[Dralnu]

This is amazing news. It wasn't too long ago that Mike Mearls dismissed chances of cross-over, saying it would be too difficult to coordinate, and Mark Rosewater also said he wants to keep the brand separate. Then out of the blue we get this! So either they're okay with dabbling, or a policy shift is happening. Either way, I like it!

I'm gonna do some brewing!

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I like it, though I'll agree with Hawk7915, ideas about how to use the roil would have been greatly appreciated. It may be asking a lot for a free PDF but some setting specific equipment and magic items would also have been really cool.

I would have actually preferred if they didn't give stats or monster equivalents for the titans just on the principle that they shouldn't be something your players have a hope of defeating in straight-up combat. If I ran a Zendikar game and there was ever a chance of a titan showing up, I'd treat it more as a set piece with some nasty environmental effects and such than a monster with hit points you can deplete.

I see why they went with Zendikar for this kind of thing. It is a very D&Dish world. I just hope we see more worlds too. I'm currently running Dralnu's Innistrad campaign and getting to a point where my players are starting to stray from the pre-written adventure to follow suggested (but not fully fleshed) plot hooks and personal goals so a little more inspiration for running things in that setting would be awesome.

Really, if this goes over well, I can imagine Wizards publishing a compendium of several Magic settings, each about the length of what we got for Zendikar or a little longer and with a section of rules that could apply to any Magic-based campaign (playing Planeswalkers, for example).

[EvanescentHero]

I don't really care about Magic, but I'm always happy to see more character options, especially for free! I'd probably rename the goblins if I were to adapt these races into a campaign, since they're quite different from typical goblins, but they're definitely interesting.

[Regitnui]

I'll third the request for having rules or at least some hints about throwing players into or surviving a Roil storm. The Roil itself I can understand not giving us rules for, since that'd be a lot like making rules for Eberron's Traveller's Curse or Forgotten Realms' Spellplague. The Roil itself is a huge global effect, but a roil storm is, lorewise, a lot like a hurricane when the ground gets up and gets involved too. Rules for terrain alteration would have added to the base game as well.

I do like the new monsters though. Felidar are one of my favourite monsters from the plane, since they're essentially divine multi-horned cats. I like to think they eat unicorns that fall from Lawful Good alignments. The archon's little One Being ribbon has to be good for something, and the Kor, Merfolk and Vampire races can shown up in any campaign that wants to take a step or two away from the Standard Fantasy Setting.

[BladeWing81]

anybody know if this supplement will be legal for AL?

[Arkhios]

anybody know if this supplement will be legal for AL?

hardly... Zendikar and it's inhabitants have nothing to do with Forgotten Realms, where AL is set in.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

There's some small italic text that says that it won't be.

Which is a shame, because Emeria Merfolk might be THE best Cleric/Paladin race ever printed. Shilelagh as a racial feature? Yes, please.

[Belac93]

Most of this seems pretty balanced. A few class options would be nice, and the vampires ability to create zombies is a little weird. If the zombies are friendly, then you can create infinite minions, which is overpowered. If the zombies are hostile, I don't see why you would ever use this power. If they are indifferent, then I could see it working fine.

[Telwar]

Hrm, no variant humans.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Hrm, no variant humans.

Since they make a point of saying "as in the PHB," I'm guessing variant humans are still fine and they just didn't want to reprint them.

[toapat]

Really, if this goes over well, I can imagine Wizards publishing a compendium of several Magic settings, each about the length of what we got for Zendikar or a little longer and with a section of rules that could apply to any Magic-based campaign (playing Planeswalkers, for example).

For the most part i agree, but we need a full 300 page Ravnica Campaign setting, as well as a phyrexia villians book. Where as Innistrad and Zendikar are more typical fantasy worlds, and Lorwyn is practically unusable, most of the settings can get away with this kind of 30 page document. Just not Ravnica

[Durazno]

An Eldrazi villain book would be kind of neat, too, given the particular details of how they warp and contort whatever world they attack.

[Chadamantium]

So is the Kor's lucky only used once per long rest or unlimited? That's probably too strong for a PC if unlimited. Almost like a permanent advantage

[Durazno]

Where as Innistrad and Zendikar are more typical fantasy worlds, and Lorwyn is practically unusable, most of the settings can get away with this kind of 30 page document.

I didn't bring this up before, because this document is more than I ever expected and I didn't want to complain, but Zendikar isn't really all that standard, either. When it's limited to a 30 page document, and we don't get "Adventuring in Vertical Spaces", rules for navigating chains of sky islands, advice on how to run a Roil encounter, class options focusing on harnessing or calming the Roil, Animists, Hexmages, Lithomancy and the hedrons, rules for the various ways the Eldrazi mutilate reality, descriptions of how the various cultures deal with the landscape itself constantly trying to kill them, and so forth, we end up with "Zendikar, but without most of the things that set it apart from more typical fantasy worlds."

Which is great! As I said, more than I ever expected!

But I think that just about any MtG plane that we've spent a set on would be worth at least a 200-page sourcebook. (Not sure about Shandalar, but it has some history, too.)

[brainface]

So is the Kor's lucky only used once per long rest or unlimited? That's probably too strong for a PC if unlimited. Almost like a permanent advantage
You only reroll on a 1 (I don't have my book with me, but I think halflings get the same trait, even.)

[Limited Gish]

So is the Kor's lucky only used once per long rest or unlimited? That's probably too strong for a PC if unlimited. Almost like a permanent advantage

This is the exact same ability that halflings have from the Player's Handbook. And it's only like permanent advantage if you Always roll a natural 1 when Rolling. It's a dope feature, and the reason I don't play non-halflings because my luck is terrible, but it's not crazy good.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Regitnui]

I didn't bring this up before, because this document is more than I ever expected and I didn't want to complain, but Zendikar isn't really all that standard, either. When it's limited to a 30 page document, and we don't get "Adventuring in Vertical Spaces", rules for navigating chains of sky islands, advice on how to run a Roil encounter, class options focusing on harnessing or calming the Roil, Animists, Hexmages, Lithomancy and the hedrons, rules for the various ways the Eldrazi mutilate reality, descriptions of how the various cultures deal with the landscape itself constantly trying to kill them, and so forth, we end up with "Zendikar, but without most of the things that set it apart from more typical fantasy worlds."

Which is great! As I said, more than I ever expected!

But I think that just about any MtG plane that we've spent a set on would be worth at least a 200-page sourcebook. (Not sure about Shandalar, but it has some history, too.)

It is supposed to be a sort of companion book, but I do agree with you on most of those. Though a lot of it can be homebrewed now, since they're doing the hard part for us

[EvilAnagram]

This is beautiful. I'm not a big Magic player, but I absolutely love the setting as described in this supplement. Funnily enough, I keep getting reminded of Final Fantasy VII when I read this. A lot of it also reminds me of a planet I used for an Edge of the Empire campaign, with gravity wells and flying sea creatures.

Well, after my party deals with all this Rakshasa business, they might end up here.

[toapat]

I didn't bring this up before, because this document is more than I ever expected and I didn't want to complain, but Zendikar isn't really all that standard, either. When it's limited to a 30 page document, and we don't get "Adventuring in Vertical Spaces", rules for navigating chains of sky islands, advice on how to run a Roil encounter, class options focusing on harnessing or calming the Roil, Animists, Hexmages, Lithomancy and the hedrons, rules for the various ways the Eldrazi mutilate reality, descriptions of how the various cultures deal with the landscape itself constantly trying to kill them, and so forth, we end up with "Zendikar, but without most of the things that set it apart from more typical fantasy worlds."

Which is great! As I said, more than I ever expected!

But I think that just about any MtG plane that we've spent a set on would be worth at least a 200-page sourcebook. (Not sure about Shandalar, but it has some history, too.)

the Roil was kinda explained by the description about elementals other then the terrain shifts, and while i would like a several more Kozilek style eldrazi examples (the template is baseically just Ulamog spawn) and a notable lack of Linvala

I dont think we could really squish more then 20 pages extra out of Zendikar, and we cant get more then we got for Innistrad then Zen because the setting itself doesnt have alot of material that isnt in DnD, most of the Inn sheet should be character bios and stat blocks when we get it, along with a map which we should but wont

[Regitnui]

The possible settings from MtG that are different enough to actually warrant new mechanics is pretty slim. Zendikar is one, though they shyed away from the biggest (Roil Storms!). Phyrexia (old or new) might be another, and by extension the old Mirrodin. Theros, and maybe Tarkir. There's a Planechase plane where the air was fill of mana to the point reality was mutable (Arkhos?) and one that seemed pretty Norse where lightning falls like rain in a deluge.

[Ralanr]

Races I'd like them to tackle from MTG if they ever get the chance:
-Vashino
-Weirds
-Flamekin/cinders
-Minotaurs (though one UA does already have them)

I don't like the kor getting two free skills on top of the lucky trait, but I'm probably just bias because I feel dragonborn got the short end of the stick (say what you want about the breath attack, but skills tend to scale better).

[TentacleSurpris]

A DM has to limit what is allowed in the game, and literally every DM I know doesn't allow any homebrew, UA, or third-party supplements, so this won't be used in tabletop games around here, organized play or otherwise.

WOTC really needs to stop doing this. I don't mean stop making material. I mean stop making "unofficial" material that isn't legal for AL play or playtested. UA articles are like trailers for movies that are stuck in development hell. Why do they waste their time and ours by teasing us with material "for a possible future supplement" when no such supplements ever get released? They ask us to put in work playtesting but never follow through on our playtest reports.

WOTC obviously put work into this document but they didn't put enough work into it to call it official material. That's a lazy, half-done job. Nobody I know will use this book.

[EvilAnagram]

A DM has to limit what is allowed in the game, and literally every DM I know doesn't allow any homebrew, UA, or third-party supplements, so this won't be used in tabletop games around here, organized play or otherwise.

WOTC really needs to stop doing this. I don't mean stop making material. I mean stop making "unofficial" material that isn't legal for AL play or playtested. UA articles are like trailers for movies that are stuck in development hell. Why do they waste their time and ours by teasing us with material "for a possible future supplement" when no such supplements ever get released? They ask us to put in work playtesting but never follow through on our playtest reports.

WOTC obviously put work into this document but they didn't put enough work into it to call it official material. That's a lazy, half-done job. Nobody I know will use this book.

I'm under the impression that, like Elemental Evil, this is a full supplement that's meant as a companion to an officially released book.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I'm not seeing the "laziness" here. If Wizards put the time and resources into polishing this material that you seem to want, they would probably either release a lot less of this sort of supplemental material or they would release it in full-on books rather than putting it out for free to anyone who wants to use it.

On the other hand, I love what they're doing. I've bought four books and gotten a ton of extra, free material to use or not as my group decides (and it is a group decision, not a strict DM allowance/ban). If something needs adjusting, the DM is free to rule one way or the other, but most of what they've released has been in the right ballpark at least in terms of power.

It sounds like the problem you have is more with DMs whose standards for materials don't agree with their players' interests or desires rather than anything Wizards themselves is doing.

Edit: Also, I think the reason this isn't AL legal is more to do with what Arkhios said than "not putting in enough work to call it official material". They're treating Zendikar as a D&D setting, not folding Zendikar's features into every other D&D setting.

[Regitnui]

I'm under the impression that, like Elemental Evil, this is a full supplement that's meant as a companion to an officially released book.

It is, but it's a D&D companion to a M:tG art book. They reckoned the Art of Magic: the Gathering - Zendikar book was enough like a D&D sourcebook, full of quest hooks, that they ran with the idea and made this. Both Mike Mearls and Mark Rosewater are against officially crossing over the brands, so this is the best we're going to get. It's not that they didn't put work into this, it's that it's essentially a nice treat for those fans who like both D&D and M:tG.

[Chadamantium]

You only reroll on a 1 (I don't have my book with me, but I think halflings get the same trait, even.)

I thought it might have been but I couldn't remember. No one in my groups play the little folk.

[TentacleSurpris]

The only reason I can think of for not crossing the brands is that if one brand (dnd) were eventually sold off or spun off, it would be a challenge to disentangle the IP. Not impossible at all, but difficult. Considering that Wizards is licensing out its IP to other companies to make t-shirts and miniature games, it wouldn't be hard to license dnd back to WOTC for a magic expansion, or vice versa.

It's like a married couple saying they don't want to have kids because they're afraid of the custody arrangement if they ever get a divorce. Only they've been married now for 19 years with no end in sight, and one of the partners hasn't aged well and has no prospects for leaving the other wealthy and attractive partner anyway.

I mean, how badly could it go? They basically rewrote STRAHD's gothic horror setting into the gothic horror setting of InniSTRAD, and that seemed to go over well. Matter of fact, it was the best-selling magic set in history when it debuted.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Shadows over Innistrad comes out within a month of Curse of Strahd.

[rhouck]

WOTC really needs to stop doing this. I don't mean stop making material. I mean stop making "unofficial" material that isn't legal for AL play or playtested. UA articles are like trailers for movies that are stuck in development hell. Why do they waste their time and ours by teasing us with material "for a possible future supplement" when no such supplements ever get released?

Both the Storm Sorcerer and Swashbuckler appeared in UA and were then released (after notable play-balancing changes) in SCAG.

I agree that I personally never use UA stuff, but I think they use it to gauge interest in what people might like to see in future "official" content.

[TentacleSurpris]

Both the Storm Sorcerer and Swashbuckler appeared in UA and were then released (after notable play-balancing changes) in SCAG.

I agree that I personally never use UA stuff, but I think they use it to gauge interest in what people might like to see in future "official" content.

I'm aware, I own that book. So of the dozen or so UA articles, a slice of two are incorporated into an overpriced supplement. If they were really listening to customers, they'd have included a ranger archetype. It's not like a Ranger is the signature character of the FR product line with his picture on the box of the boardgame or anything.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm aware, I own that book. So of the dozen or so UA articles, a slice of two are incorporated into an overpriced supplement. If they were really listening to customers, they'd have included a ranger archetype. It's not like a Ranger is the signature character of the FR product line with his picture on the box of the boardgame or anything.
The Undying Pact is obviously an evolution of the Undying Light.

They also brought in a martial healer (as requested by many 4e fans), a new Cleric domain (as requested by many), a new gish option and new gish spells (which many had complained about), a new pact option based off a UA, and a toned down elements Monk whose ki points last longer (which has been a major complaint). There was a single class that didn't get exactly what was being requested of it, while others did. To top it all off, it also had a ton of info for any DM working in the Forgotten Realms.

You're complaints are completely unwarranted.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

...Uh, Undying pact is about as opposite as you can get to Undying Light.

[EvilAnagram]

...Uh, Undying pact is about as opposite as you can get to Undying Light.
In flavor, sure, but the main features for both increase your survivability and allow you to revive yourself and others. For Undying, they switched up the spells, but kept the healing and reviving features.

[RickAllison]

In flavor, sure, but the main features for both increase your survivability and allow you to revive yourself and others. For Undying, they switched up the spells, but kept the healing and reviving features.

Not really. I think Undying Light is still in the works for an official release.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

In flavor, sure, but the main features for both increase your survivability and allow you to revive yourself and others. For Undying, they switched up the spells, but kept the healing and reviving features.Comparing their features level by level, they have very little in common (yes, both have some features that promote survivability, but Undying Light has a huge focus on blasting and radiant damage that's nowhere to be seen in the Undying.)

Besides that, they were released a day apart (November 2 for the PDF with the Undying Light and November 3 for the book with the Undying) as opposed to six months apart for the PDF with the Swashbuckler and Storm Sorcerer and the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It seems unlikely that the Undying Light was intended to be any sort of preliminary version or playtest for the Undying given the one day lead time.

[EvilAnagram]

Not really. I think Undying Light is still in the works for an official release.

It could be, but I think its abilities would be toned down quite a bit if it is, and the overlap on the spell list with the Fiend pact and the 14th level ability with the Undying pact make me think it's probably not going to get an official release.


Comparing their features level by level, they have very little in common (yes, both have some features that promote survivability, but Undying Light has a huge focus on blasting and radiant damage that's nowhere to be seen in the Undying.)

Besides that, they were released a day apart (November 2 for the PDF with the Undying Light and November 3 for the book with the Undying) as opposed to six months apart for the PDF with the Swashbuckler and Storm Sorcerer and the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. It seems unlikely that the Undying Light was intended to be any sort of preliminary version or playtest for the Undying given the one day lead time.

Good point.

[EvanescentHero]

The Undying Pact is obviously an evolution of the Undying Light.

Um...the Undying Light patron was put out in UA exactly one day before the official release of the SCAG, and after it was available for purchase in local game stores. Somehow I find your claim difficult to believe.

EDIT: Shoulda read all the posts before me.

[Quintessence]

Finally some races with 2 to wisdom... I've waited so long Q_Q

[EvilAnagram]

Finally some races with 2 to wisdom... I've waited so long Q_Q

Those elf options will certainly make excellent Clerics.

[Keko]

Directly from the survey about Plane Shift: Zendikar:

"4. Which of the following types of content would you like to see in future articles that cross the Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering worlds?"

Choices include character class options, adventure paths, alternative magic system and backgrounds.

There are also specific questions about interest in purchasing digital and/or hardback, favourite planes...

So I guess they're at the very least seriously considering this crossing.

[Arkhios]

Those elf options will certainly make excellent Clerics.

I find them better as Druids, at least from my experience with MtG.

[Nicrosil]

I haven't played Magic in fear of it devouring my soul and wallet, but this seems really cool! I haven't read it yet since I'm still drooling over the 4 new +2 Wis races...

[Logosloki]

I wouldn't mind more supplements like this one. Maybe they could also release a colour supplement so we could use the colours of magic for alignment (I am aware on the balance of probabilities this already exists but I would like a nice neat supplement with some magic the gathering lore and pretty artwork).

[Regitnui]

I wouldn't mind more supplements like this one. Maybe they could also release a colour supplement so we could use the colours of magic for alignment (I am aware on the balance of probabilities this already exists but I would like a nice neat supplement with some magic the gathering lore and pretty artwork).

Besides the colours of red and white corresponding fairly well to Chaotic and Lawful respectively, the colours cover broad swaths of the alignment table; White can be any lawful or neutral good, blue holds to the neutral or lawful alignments, black does evil best, but can rise along chaotic, red has every chaotic alignment and may rise to true neutral and neutral good, while green is pretty solidly neutral. Colourless can go anywhere, as can multicoloured or 'gold'. Best you're going to get is the five archetypal monsters (Angels, Sphinxes, Demons, Dragons, Hydras/Wurms) and their associated alignments.

More plane lore, especially Ravnica or the planes I mentioned in my last post, would always be welcome.

[Belac93]

Besides the colours of red and white corresponding fairly well to Chaotic and Lawful respectively, the colours cover broad swaths of the alignment table; White can be any lawful or neutral good, blue holds to the neutral or lawful alignments, black does evil best, but can rise along chaotic, red has every chaotic alignment and may rise to true neutral and neutral good, while green is pretty solidly neutral.

I've seen them everywhere. Red can actually be pretty much anything except for LE. There are even some that I would say were LN and LG (although they may have had white in them). White can be anything at all. Same with black and blue. I would say any colour can be anything. Its not so much about the individual creatures alignments much as what they are. That would be different for PCs of course, but even humans usually have the White colour unless they are also something else (like a druid or an assassin).

[Regitnui]

I've seen them everywhere. Red can actually be pretty much anything except for LE. There are even some that I would say were LN and LG (although they may have had white in them). White can be anything at all. Same with black and blue. I would say any colour can be anything. Its not so much about the individual creatures alignments much as what they are. That would be different for PCs of course, but even humans usually have the White colour unless they are also something else (like a druid or an assassin).

Yeah, the colours are pretty much pointless in regards to alignment. However, they could maybe be tied to schools of magic. Red is definitely more Evocation, and Blue is the only colour that uses Illusion on a regular basis.

Humans are one of the few 'tribes' that can appear in all colours. Mirrodin had a different human nation or tribe for each colour (hmm... Auriok, Neurok, Moriok, Vulshok and... Um... Sylvok), and they aren't aligned with any colour like goblins, elves or merfolk.

[Durazno]

I'd argue that the colors aren't pointless in regards to element, they just don't line up at all with the nine-alignment grid. It would be an alternative alignment system that would tell you different things about the characters, and I, at least, would find vastly more interesting.

We have this, for instance. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?157001-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-3-5-PEACH)

[Regitnui]

OK, yeah. Revise the statement to say the colour wheel is incompatible with the nine alignments. I guess it could work an alternative...

[toapat]

I wouldn't mind more supplements like this one. Maybe they could also release a color supplement so we could use the colors of magic for alignment (I am aware on the balance of probabilities this already exists but I would like a nice neat supplement with some magic the gathering lore and pretty artwork).

the problem with using the color wheel of MTG as alignment is where as the Good/Chaos/Evil/Law alignment of DnD is a 2 axis chart, the MTG color wheel is a 5 color chart with individual alignments towards Positive and Negative aspects of the color, and the way colors actually line up philosophically is very different from the alignments. For instance, while you would naturally put paladin as a Strongly Positive Aligned white class, thats not its actual base level nature. Paladin, first and foremost, is Strongly Aligned to Positive Red, followed by a Major alignment to White with varying degree of bias towards the Positive or Negative traits. A Paladin of the Ancients will be aligned towards the Positive aspects of White, while a Paladin of Vengeance will be strongly aligned to the Negative aspects of white.

When DnD players cant agree on a 2 axis system, do you think they would agree on a system that uses 6?


We have this, for instance. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?157001-Alignment-Replacement-The-Color-Wheel-3-5-PEACH)

That homebrew is so horrifically out of whack and so abstracted away from MTG it doesnt comprehend how the color wheel works

[Durazno]

It seems to line up with the color wheel's philosophies pretty closely to me. If you go to the Mothership and read columns about what the colors value and do, the descriptions from that homebrew follow them practically word-for-word! It doesn't reflect the game mechanics associated with those colors in the card game because this is a different game.

And why would everyone need to agree on the colors anyway? One of the advantages of using the colors is that they're not as loaded as saying "good" or "evil" - I doubt people would get as up in arms about the meaning of "Blue" as they would about the meaning of "Evil." Besides which, there are many different ways to do each color. If you're Green, you could be like Garruk, or Nissa, or Vorinclex, or Kamahl, or Reki, or Molimo, or any number of others, and still be fitting. And Green's always been one of the narrower colors for characters!

[8wGremlin]

Emeria merfolk arcane domain cleric would be potent. At 1st level get shillelagh , green flame blade or booming blade. All tied off Wisdom.
With +2 wis to start

[Foxhound438]

Those elf options will certainly make excellent Clerics.

Nah, Mul Daya polearm fighter. Milk that hex for what it's worth.

[Dr. Cliché]

Any thoughts about the Vampire race?

[Madfellow]

Any thoughts about the Vampire race?

Oddly enough I think it might be the weakest of the five races. Hard to say for sure though; I'm away from my computer at the moment. I'm having a hard time remembering what they get. +2 Cha, +1 Int, some skills, and resistance to necrotic I want to say? Could make a really flavorful warlock I suppose.

I really want to use these rules to make a kor stoneforge mystic or a merfolk lullmage though. :)

[Regitnui]

Oddly enough I think it might be the weakest of the five races. Hard to say for sure though; I'm away from my computer at the moment. I'm having a hard time remembering what they get. +2 Cha, +1 Int, some skills, and resistance to necrotic I want to say? Could make a really flavorful warlock I suppose.

I really want to use these rules to make a kor stoneforge mystic or a merfolk lullmage though. :)

And the ability to bite humanoids and turn them into minions.

[Dr. Cliché]

And the ability to bite humanoids and turn them into minions.

Well, it doesn't actually say they become loyal to you. You could be creating enemies. :smalltongue:


Oddly enough I think it might be the weakest of the five races. Hard to say for sure though; I'm away from my computer at the moment. I'm having a hard time remembering what they get. +2 Cha, +1 Int, some skills, and resistance to necrotic I want to say? Could make a really flavorful warlock I suppose.

I was thinking Warlock as well. Not sure when the bite attack would be useful though (if ever).

[brainface]

The bite attack badly needs clarification: Do you add your strength to the piercing damage? Can you use the extra attack feature with it? Are the nulls loyal to you because that's kind of a big deal there.

Also: it heals you, so it's conceivably pretty good if you've managed to land hold person on someone and can autocrit cure yourself / hurt them with every attack.

It's still kind of ehhh compared to the other races in the list, really I'd compare it to dragonborn, in that it could really use another ribbon or two to make it more interesting.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It might be interesting as a grappling specialist. Reducing MHP is a pretty nice option.

[SharkForce]

i dunno, having access to a fairly good heal that doesn't cost resources sounds like a pretty useful ability for a warrior to me.

[AugustNights]

I'm kind of irritated that Blood Thirst isn't better defined.
It's not an Action, it's a melee attack.
But it's not a melee weapon attack.
It's not an unarmed attack.
Which means, it only gets a bonus to hit defined by text of the attack itself, so it gets no bonus to hit.
The Death Cleric, oddly has the same issue...

Though it could be argued that these abilities use *any* melee attack, but that seems off.

[Longcat]

Hrm, no variant humans.

Good riddance!

[Madfellow]

i dunno, having access to a fairly good heal that doesn't cost resources sounds like a pretty useful ability for a warrior to me.

How much is it? D6+level? I guess that's nice to have if your cleric's tied up.

[Beleriphon]

I'm under the impression that, like Elemental Evil, this is a full supplement that's meant as a companion to an officially released book.

No, its James Wyatt's pet project he did because he wanted to, and managed to coordinate with the D&D and MtG teams to get it out. The document very clearly states at the top none of it is okay to use with AL games. This a fun bit of setting material that works with D&D and is being released by WotC. I look at it the same as any of their previous fun material, like the document that detailed the D&D movie setting back in 2001.

[Dr. Cliché]

i dunno, having access to a fairly good heal that doesn't cost resources sounds like a pretty useful ability for a warrior to me.

'Doesn't cost resources' is a bit misleading. As, I think, is 'fairly good heal'.

The heal itself doesn't cost resources, but grappling/restraining/incapacitating the creature likely will. At the very least, there's likely to be an opportunity cost involved (especially when other enemies are present), in that you're using your action to do a pitiful amount of damage. You might heal a bit, but your party is likely to still take more damage overall.


How much is it? D6+level? I guess that's nice to have if your cleric's tied up.

1 Piercing damage plus 1d6 Necrotic damage. You regain hp equal to the Necrotic damage.


One thing I've noticed is that you can only create a Null if the necrotic damage reduces the creature's Max hp to 0. But, since you're doing piercing damage as well (in addition to any other punishment the creature has sustained), there's a very good chance the creature will just die before that happens.

[AugustNights]

Blood thirst translates to free healing for a vampire after a fight with a living target of 8+ hp, as long as the vampire can successfully stabilize the target.

[Zalabim]

Any enemy taken down by a melee attack can be made automatically stabilized. Anyone in the team can help you find a snack.

[Dr. Cliché]

Any enemy taken down by a melee attack can be made automatically stabilized. Anyone in the team can help you find a snack.

Would that also apply to the Vampire Bite itself?

So, if you have a stabilised target, you can just keep draining them until the Necrotic damage reduced their hp maximum to 0.

[Dante & Vergil]

Directly from the survey about Plane Shift: Zendikar:

"4. Which of the following types of content would you like to see in future articles that cross the Dungeons & Dragons and Magic: The Gathering worlds?"

Choices include character class options, adventure paths, alternative magic system and backgrounds.

There are also specific questions about interest in purchasing digital and/or hardback, favourite planes...

So I guess they're at the very least seriously considering this crossing.

They survey they have does strongly suggest this, which is why if any of you here want to see more books from this and other planes of Magic in D&D, I suggest you take that survey and let them know what you want from such a product because it just might happen.

[Regitnui]

The problem with other crossover books is that few other planes from M:tG fall into the space of "Can be modelled by D&D" while also having new material. Honestly, Innistrad can already be completely modelled in D&D using publicly available information. Why publish a Plane Shift when the material can be found via a quick Google search and a selection of monsters that are in the MM? Wolfir? Those are NG creatures with the werewolf hybrid stats. Theros is in the same boat; at best adding more Greek monsters and catfolk.

Ravnica could qualify, and by canon has enough room for thousands of D&D players to run around without affecting the main plot. Tarkir may be able to stand on its own, but would overlap a little with that old 2e setting where dragons ruled. Mirrodin and Phyrexia would be the most interesting places for the Plane Shift to go next, if they insist.

[Madfellow]

The problem with other crossover books is that few other planes from M:tG fall into the space of "Can be modelled by D&D" while also having new material. Honestly, Innistrad can already be completely modelled in D&D using publicly available information. Why publish a Plane Shift when the material can be found via a quick Google search and a selection of monsters that are in the MM? Wolfir? Those are NG creatures with the werewolf hybrid stats. Theros is in the same boat; at best adding more Greek monsters and catfolk.

Ravnica could qualify, and by canon has enough room for thousands of D&D players to run around without affecting the main plot. Tarkir may be able to stand on its own, but would overlap a little with that old 2e setting where dragons ruled. Mirrodin and Phyrexia would be the most interesting places for the Plane Shift to go next, if they insist.

New material doesn't necessarily mean new rules. It could mean adventure modules, maps, character and monster stats, and adventure seeds.

[Regitnui]

New material doesn't necessarily mean new rules. It could mean adventure modules, maps, character and monster stats, and adventure seeds.

I'd agree with that. But the point still stands that the creative DM can run the vast majority of M:tG settings with no additional material. Whether that be rules, races, adventures, monsters, or maps. Innistrad has already been homebrewed. What lore you need can be found on a wiki, like the MTGSalvation wiki I use.

[Madfellow]

I'd agree with that. But the point still stands that the creative DM can run the vast majority of M:tG settings with no additional material. Whether that be rules, races, adventures, monsters, or maps. Innistrad has already been homebrewed. What lore you need can be found on a wiki, like the MTGSalvation wiki I use.

You also left out Alara in your list. :) I think rules for etherium body upgrades would be pretty cool. Esper would make an awesome cyberpunk setting.

[Dr. Cliché]

Honestly, Innistrad can already be completely modelled in D&D using publicly available information.

Isn't Innistrad just the MTG version of Ravenloft? :smallwink:

[Regitnui]

You also left out Alara in your list. :) I think rules for etherium body upgrades would be pretty cool. Esper would make an awesome cyberpunk setting.

That's actually a great thought, though Mirrodin pre-corruption could do 'fantastic cyberpunk' as well. Now I want to try write a fantasy cyberpunk story...


Isn't Innistrad just the MTG version of Ravenloft? :smallwink:

Pretty much. That's why we don't need a book for it.

[Madfellow]

Isn't Innistrad just the MTG version of Ravenloft? :smallwink:

Not quite. Innistrad has a LOT less magical stuff going on compared to Ravenloft. The latter has all of the DnD fantastical races, plus the Vistani, the Mists, the Dark Lords, and the Dark Powers.

In contrast, Innistrad just has humans and various forms of monsters. Its world has more in common with Beauty and the Beast than with Middle Earth, not that that makes it any less interesting. Quite the opposite, in my opinion.

[Dr. Cliché]

Not quite. Innistrad has a LOT less magical stuff going on compared to Ravenloft. The latter has all of the DnD fantastical races, plus the Vistani, the Mists, the Dark Lords, and the Dark Powers.

In contrast, Innistrad just has humans and various forms of monsters. Its world has more in common with Beauty and the Beast than with Middle Earth, not that that makes it any less interesting. Quite the opposite, in my opinion.

If that's the case, I'd actually be quite curious to see an Innistrad supplement - if only as a low-magic version of D&D.

[Regitnui]

If that's the case, I'd actually be quite curious to see an Innistrad supplement - if only as a low-magic version of D&D.

Well, cut the lycanthrope, angels, demon, flesh golem and vampire pages out of the MM, play only normal humans, and cap levelling at 10. That'll approximate the general status quo. The point of Innistrad is that the monsters in the dark aren't able to be defeated; only held at bay. Humanity is under constant siege, and only the vigilance of the angels and the church holds darkness at bay. At least, until the manager of the plane got messed up and the angels went crazy... Now the only thing between humans and extinction is luck and folk tales.

[Dr. Cliché]

Well, cut the lycanthrope, angels, demon, flesh golem and vampire pages out of the MM, play only normal humans, and cap levelling at 10. That'll approximate the general status quo. The point of Innistrad is that the monsters in the dark aren't able to be defeated; only held at bay.

Wouldn't there also be less/weaker spellcasting though? Rather than just a level cap on all classes.

[Madfellow]

Wouldn't there also be less/weaker spellcasting though? Rather than just a level cap on all classes.

Hmm... That's an interesting question: what, if any, house rules would need to be implemented for a proper campaign in Innistrad?

Let's start with the level cap. The DMG defines the four tiers of play as Local Heroes (1-4), Heroes of the Realm (5-10), Masters of the Realm (11-16), and Masters of the World (17-20). Based on their descriptions, I don't think any of the human residents of Innistrad have reached level 11 or higher. Planeswalkers, on the other hand, are another story. Post-Mending, levels 11-16 are definitely within the scope of their power, but levels 17-20 are probably off-limits (with the possible exception of Bolas and Ugin, but they're dragons; they care not for your puny rules).

Second, which classes would you find on Innistrad? Let's go through the list.
Barbarian: you'll find a few of these in Kessig, but that's about it.
Bard: the quintessential Blue Mage. You're sure to find a few of them in Nephalia, but probably with some subtle re-fluffing; MTG has precious few practitioners of magic music.
Cleric: yes, you will find many, many clerics. Next.
Druid: you will also find many of these. Next.
Fighter: yep, plenty of these blokes. Next.
Monk: you might be able to get away with a re-fluff of the Way of Shadow or Four Elements schools, but you won't find much in the way of the traditional Eastern martial artist on Innistrad.
Paladin: plenty of 'em.
Ranger: plenty of these too.
Sorcerer: this one's tricky. With the exception of planeswalkers, Magic doesn't have many individuals who just spontaneously know magic.
Warlock: yes, oh yes you will find warlocks on Innistrad. Or maybe they'll find you first. :smalleek:
Wizard: yep, they'll find you too. :smallwink:

So looking over these, I guess I wouldn't go as far as to ban any individual class. Just be aware that some re-fluffing might be in order.

Now what about the monsters?


Well, cut the lycanthrope, angels, demon, flesh golem and vampire pages out of the MM.

I wouldn't go that far. Innistrad definitely has more than just the big 4 (ghosts, zombies, vampires, and werewolves). Just glancing through the MM table of contents, I think probably most of the monsters in there can be used in some form or another. Some of the more obscure D&D-exclusive creatures probably won't show up, as will the explicitly Greek-inspired ones (they're all chilling out on Theros). But even just looking at the first 5 entries; Aarakocra, Aboleth, Angels, Animated Objects, and Ankheg; only the bird men strike me as un-Innistrad-ish.

So yeah, if I were to run an Innistrad campaign, I think "humans only, level cap of 10" are the only house rules you'd really need.

This was fun. :smallsmile:

[Dralnu]

Humans only, level cap 10 seems reasonable. And yeah, there's a ton of monster variety to be found on Innistrad. I may have stretched it a bit by adding a Grell to one of my encounters, but I figure it's horror-inducing and that's good enough.

[Regitnui]

There you go. I was limiting things a bit, but it's still entirely within D&D. Zendikar has strange beasts, new races and a adventure-rich setting. Any new Plane Shifts have to hit all three before being worth printing.

[Dr. Cliché]

Hmm... That's an interesting question: what, if any, house rules would need to be implemented for a proper campaign in Innistrad?

Let's start with the level cap. The DMG defines the four tiers of play as Local Heroes (1-4), Heroes of the Realm (5-10), Masters of the Realm (11-16), and Masters of the World (17-20). Based on their descriptions, I don't think any of the human residents of Innistrad have reached level 11 or higher. Planeswalkers, on the other hand, are another story. Post-Mending, levels 11-16 are definitely within the scope of their power, but levels 17-20 are probably off-limits (with the possible exception of Bolas and Ugin, but they're dragons; they care not for your puny rules).

Second, which classes would you find on Innistrad? Let's go through the list.
Barbarian: you'll find a few of these in Kessig, but that's about it.
Bard: the quintessential Blue Mage. You're sure to find a few of them in Nephalia, but probably with some subtle re-fluffing; MTG has precious few practitioners of magic music.
Cleric: yes, you will find many, many clerics. Next.
Druid: you will also find many of these. Next.
Fighter: yep, plenty of these blokes. Next.
Monk: you might be able to get away with a re-fluff of the Way of Shadow or Four Elements schools, but you won't find much in the way of the traditional Eastern martial artist on Innistrad.
Paladin: plenty of 'em.
Ranger: plenty of these too.
Sorcerer: this one's tricky. With the exception of planeswalkers, Magic doesn't have many individuals who just spontaneously know magic.
Warlock: yes, oh yes you will find warlocks on Innistrad. Or maybe they'll find you first. :smalleek:
Wizard: yep, they'll find you too. :smallwink:

So looking over these, I guess I wouldn't go as far as to ban any individual class. Just be aware that some re-fluffing might be in order.


I wasn't thinking about banning classes, but what about subclasses? e.g. are we likely to see Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters in a low-magic system?

Also, should full casters be as powerful in general? Or, might some or all casters have fewer spell slots? Or be missing some of their abilities (e.g. Wizards have no Arcane Recovery, Sorcerers have fewer spell points etc.)? Or, should casting magic have some sort of cost?

[Zalabim]

Would that also apply to the Vampire Bite itself?

So, if you have a stabilised target, you can just keep draining them until the Necrotic damage reduced their hp maximum to 0.

A stable creature that takes any damage has to start making death saves. That probably overrides the option to leave a creature stabilized when it's reduced to 0 hp by a melee attack, assuming you even subscribe to the idea that dealing damage to a creature already at 0 hp counts as reducing it to 0 hp.

[Madfellow]

I wasn't thinking about banning classes, but what about subclasses? e.g. are we likely to see Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters in a low-magic system?

Also, should full casters be as powerful in general? Or, might some or all casters have fewer spell slots? Or be missing some of their abilities (e.g. Wizards have no Arcane Recovery, Sorcerers have fewer spell points etc.)? Or, should casting magic have some sort of cost?

I'm generally against the idea of banning the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, since doing so cuts out 33% of the fighter's and rogue's subclass options (within the PHB at least; I know there are other options in other sources). Besides, I think those character archetypes can actually fit in the setting. The planeswalker Gideon Jura, for example, might be best modeled as an Eldritch Knight who uses abjuration magic exclusively (he's so tanky he took on an eldrazi titan solo and lived to tell the tale). And the Arcane Trickster is another great way to represent a blue mage.

And reducing spell slots or removing major class features like Arcane Recovery would unnecessarily nerf full casters. As for magic having some sort of cost, I think Innistrad already has that covered in that arcane magic is viewed with a healthy dose of suspicion and mistrust, for very good reason. If you're a warlock or a wizard, angry mobs with pitchforks shouting, "Burn the witch!" are an occupational hazard.

Edit: also keep in mind that the level cap means that the most powerful human spellcaster on Innistrad, Mikaeus the Lunarch, was only a 10th level cleric.

Hmm... if you really want to commit to low magic though, maybe removing cantrips (with the possible exception of Eldritch Blast, an important feature for warlocks) could accomplish that without overly nerfing the casting classes.

I dunno. It's tricky.

[SharkForce]

A stable creature that takes any damage has to start making death saves. That probably overrides the option to leave a creature stabilized when it's reduced to 0 hp by a melee attack, assuming you even subscribe to the idea that dealing damage to a creature already at 0 hp counts as reducing it to 0 hp.

conveniently, bringing a person back up to 1 HP is not that hard. iirc, doesn't the healer feat let you do that indefinitely (well, until you run out of healer kits at least)?

[Madfellow]

conveniently, bringing a person back up to 1 HP is not that hard. iirc, doesn't the healer feat let you do that indefinitely (well, until you run out of healer kits at least)?

But the vampire's bite deals one piercing damage before any necrotic damage is applied. Vampire bites, subject passes out with zero HP, and no necrotic damage is applied, which means no healing.

[SharkForce]

But the vampire's bite deals one piercing damage before any necrotic damage is applied. Vampire bites, subject passes out with zero HP, and no necrotic damage is applied, which means no healing.

i don't recall the ability specifying the order in which the damage is inflicted. did i miss something?

[Regitnui]

i don't recall the ability specifying the order in which the damage is inflicted. did i miss something?

Rules as Common Sense. You've got to pierce the skin before you can start consuming blood.

[SharkForce]

Rules as Common Sense. You've got to pierce the skin before you can start consuming blood.

how do you know the 1 HP comes from the puncture and not from the blood loss after the puncture?

[Regitnui]

how do you know the 1 HP comes from the puncture and not from the blood loss after the puncture?

Don't be smug. It's piercing damage. The puncture is the source of the piercing, whether the HP is tearing of the skin, minor blood loss before the vampire latches on or the shock of "holy emeria, he bit me!", it happens before the vampire can start sucking/lapping blood.

[Dr. Cliché]

Don't be smug. It's piercing damage. The puncture is the source of the piercing, whether the HP is tearing of the skin, minor blood loss before the vampire latches on or the shock of "holy emeria, he bit me!", it happens before the vampire can start sucking/lapping blood.

Well, if we really want to get into common sense, surely the vampire could still suck the guy's blood even if the mere act of biting him finished him off. :smalltongue:

[Regitnui]

Well, if we really want to get into common sense, surely the vampire could still suck the guy's blood even if the mere act of biting him finished him off. :smalltongue:

Vampire bats lap up the blood from a wound, which makes it more plausible, for a human-sized haemovore, than mimicking a mosquito. The greatest ally for a haemovore is the victim's own heartbeat and blood pressure forcing the blood into the wound as part of the natural wound repair process. So yeah, they could suck the blood out. But why when they could just grapple, tear a vein/artery (whichever's tastier) open and let the blood flow into their mouths? Dead blood is stagnant too, so doubly bad.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Why dead? After falling to zero, they'd be unconscious and making death saves. The vampire is drinking their blood in their dying moments, a staple of vampire fiction.

[SharkForce]

Don't be smug. It's piercing damage. The puncture is the source of the piercing, whether the HP is tearing of the skin, minor blood loss before the vampire latches on or the shock of "holy emeria, he bit me!", it happens before the vampire can start sucking/lapping blood.

the damage from an injury is intended to reflect the full injury. blood loss is part of that. when someone stabs you with a dagger, D&D doesn't have you take a bit of damage up front, then more damage later as you lose blood (unless you bind the wound), and then more damage later if a vital organ was punctured and starts to fail. you just take all the damage up front. it's an abstraction designed to keep things moving.

there's no reason to presume that the damage is not intended to be applied more or less simultaneously.

[Regitnui]

the damage from an injury is intended to reflect the full injury. blood loss is part of that. when someone stabs you with a dagger, D&D doesn't have you take a bit of damage up front, then more damage later as you lose blood (unless you bind the wound), and then more damage later if a vital organ was punctured and starts to fail. you just take all the damage up front. it's an abstraction designed to keep things moving.

there's no reason to presume that the damage is not intended to be applied more or less simultaneously.

OK, so you're arguing from the 'dragon bite' standpoint, where a dragon's bite has a small amount of their breath weapon-type damage included. And that's a legal interpretation. However, the dragon's bite attack is written as;


Hit:17 (2d10) piercing damage plus 4 (1d8) cold damage.

Compare:


If you hit, you deal 1 piercing damage and 1d6 necrotic damage.

Besides the fact that this shows the Plane Shift book should have undergone a proofread or two with an eye to game mechanics, it also leaves the question ambiguous. I'd certainly see the damage as being inflicted in two 'steps'; 1 piercing damage then 3 (1d6) necrotic. This would be largely irrelevant in play, but if the piercing damage was prevented, I'd rule that the necrotic damage was prevented as well.

The dragon's two types of damage are also in a similar state, but crucially has the distinction of the elemental damage having another source; a red dragon isn't injecting 'fire' through its teeth or sucking out cold, but the breath weapon is hitting with the bite attack. That can be pictured as happening simultaneously as common sense.

The poisonous snake has a different writeup to either;


Hit: 1 piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw, taking 5 (2d4) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful one.

Now, the common perception of vampire feeding puts the sequence of events in a similar order to a snakebite. Skin is pierced, then venom. This is more in line with how I'd see the vampire attack going, with the critical difference that you don't get a saving throw to not bleed. There's no earthly way to consciously stop yourself bleeding, so the vampire's victim, despite having the ability to resist the snake's poison after bite, doesn't get the saving throw against the vampire's drinking of their blood, represented as necrotic damage.

Interestingly. The MM vampire has their bite written the same way as a dragon's. No piercing, no necrotic damage and therefore no bite.

To conclude (or tl;dr in internet slang), the Zendikar vampire's ability has more in common with a poisonous snake ability than a dragon's. Rules as Common Sense; no piercing damage, no necrotic damage.

[Dr. Cliché]

To conclude (or tl;dr in internet slang), the Zendikar vampire's ability has more in common with a poisonous snake ability than a dragon's. Rules as Common Sense; no piercing damage, no necrotic damage.

Except that that's not what was asserted in the first place.

What was said was that if the piercing damage was dealt but killed the victim, then the necrotic damage wouldn't be dealt and so the vampire couldn't heal.

[Regitnui]

Except that that's not what was asserted in the first place.

What was said was that if the piercing damage was dealt but killed the victim, then the necrotic damage wouldn't be dealt and so the vampire couldn't heal.

:smalleek:

Yeah, I'd say the vamp wouldn't get the heal, since my previous post outlined my reasoning.

[Dr. Cliché]

:smalleek:

Yeah, I'd say the vamp wouldn't get the heal, since my previous post outlined my reasoning.

If we're applying common sense though, the victim isn't going to drop instantly dead upon being bitten.

[Arkhios]

If we're applying common sense though, the victim isn't going to drop instantly dead upon being bitten.

Wouldn't have to apply common sense there (though it should be obvious), since as the rules are written, dropping to 0 hit points doesn't kill you instantly. You still have to make Death Saving Throws, with 3 failures meaning death.
The amount of damage taken while at 0 hit points is largely irrelevant since you don't have negative hit point value per se. Sans crits, a vampire biting an unconscious creature would need 3 more rounds to kill it.

[Dr. Cliché]

Wouldn't have to apply common sense there (though it should be obvious), since as the rules are written, dropping to 0 hit points doesn't kill you instantly. You still have to make Death Saving Throws, with 3 failures meaning death.
The amount of damage taken while at 0 hit points is largely irrelevant since you don't have negative hit point value per se. Sans crits, a vampire biting an unconscious creature would need 3 more rounds to kill it.

So, are you saying that a vampire can or can't heal if the piercing damage from its bite drops a creature to 0?

[Arkhios]

So, are you saying that a vampire can or can't heal if the piercing damage from its bite drops a creature to 0?

Well, it says you regain hit points equal to necrotic damage you dealt, right? And that the target dies if this effect reduces the hit points to 0? Piercing damage ≠ Necrotic damage.
If you can't reduce hit points below 0, how do you deal necrotic damage and therefore heal yourself?

I would say that that the target must drop to 0 from the necrotic damage dealt to die.

[Zalabim]

Creatures at 0 HP still take damage. If it's stable, it causes them to start making death saving throws again. It counts as a failed death saving throw. If the damage is equal to or greater than the creature's max hp, it even causes them to die instantly.

[Dr. Cliché]

So, going back to the original question, could a vampire just keep biting a creature at 0hp until the necrotic damage killed them?

[Regitnui]

So, going back to the original question, could a vampire just keep biting a creature at 0hp until the necrotic damage killed them?

Could a snake with a poisonous bite keep biting a creature at 0HP until the poison damage killed them? That question is broader than just Zendikari vampires.

[Dr. Cliché]

In the snake example, is there a reason it wouldn't be able to?