More martial tempest cleric.

[Spacehamster]

Hey playground! Which class of fighter, ranger or paladin do you guys thinks adds most to the tempest cleric chassi? Were thinking max 5-6 levels of the martial classes. And would you make him heavy weapon or sword and shield style?

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey playground! Which class of fighter, ranger or paladin do you guys thinks adds most to the tempest cleric chassi? Were thinking max 5-6 levels of the martial classes. And would you make him heavy weapon or sword and shield style?
My recommendation on sword and shield is based on the simplicity of having the holy symbol on the shield for a variety of spells.

How much MAD can you put up with?

The advantage of using the Ranger is that the spell casting stat is the same: Wisdom.

The advantage of using the Paladin is that Divine Smite uses spell slots, and that gives you bursty nova damage options ... but you need to have Char of 13 to multiclass to Paladin, a stat the Cleric doesn't pump very often.

If you dump dex, go with heavy armor and put points in str/wis/char you still need to put a bit into Con or all of those concentration spells the cleric uses are more easily disrupted.

[Rysto]

Given that you can make your holy symbol a shield, and you need to hold your holy symbol to cast a spell with material components, going sword and shield makes sense to me.

If you would prefer a two-handed weapon, see if your DM would allow you to hold it in one hand while casting spells, and then you could use an amulet that's easy to grab during combat.

In theory I feel like Paladin might work best. The nice thing about Paladin is that you could take two levels for Divine Smite, and then make the most of your hits by spending the higher level slots that Cleric gives you on your smites. Three levels would get you additional channel divinity features (but not additional uses), and five levels would get you a second attack.

The big problem with a Cleric/Paladin multiclass is that you need a 13 is WIS, STR and CHA. That's some serious MAD. If you're rolling for stats and you get a fantastic set of rolls it becomes more viable.

[Spacehamster]

Thanks for feedback, also curious if the extra 1d8(later 2d8) damage that some clerics get on one attack works the same way as sneak attack in that you can get one on your reaction attack too if you get one?

[Rysto]

Hm. The text says "once on each of your turns" (bolding mine), so I interpret that to say no. It has to be on your own turn, and AoO come on other creature's turns.

[Spacehamster]

Hm. The text says "once on each of your turns" (bolding mine), so I interpret that to say no. It has to be on your own turn, and AoO come on other creature's turns.

Thanks, thought so but were not sure. :)

[Biggstick]

Hey playground! Which class of fighter, ranger or paladin do you guys thinks adds most to the tempest cleric chassi? Were thinking max 5-6 levels of the martial classes. And would you make him heavy weapon or sword and shield style?

Definitely go sword and board. If you're dead set on going that many levels into the martial class, I'd say go Fighter. It's going to be way less MAD as well as provide a solid chassis of martial abilities that you're looking for. You'll also be getting that sweet Con Save proficiency. My personal recommendation would be Battlemaster, but any way you go is going to be useful. Here is what I'd go with for the build.

Human Variant: I'm going with Shieldmaster, you can go with whatever suits your fancy. +1 str, +1 wis

15
10
14
8
15
8

Level 1: Fighting Style (Defense or Dueling, I'd prefer Defense myself)
Level 3: Battlemaster (Pick up Tripping attack at the least)
Level 4: ASI (I'd bump Wis or Str, but if a feat looks tasty to you here, go for it)
Level 6: After 5 levels of Fighter, pick up your first level of Cleric. This is so you qualify for the Warcaster feat
Level 7: Fighter ASI (Pick up Warcaster here)
Level 8: Back to Cleric leveling and never look back. Max out Str or Wis based on your desire.


So first 5 levels of Fighter for all your martial goodies plus some short rest Battlemaster stuff. Level 6 should definitely be your first Cleric level. You then have a decision to make. You can pick up that 6th Fighter level for your ASI (Warcaster preferred) or continue down Cleric waiting for Cleric 4 to pick up Warcaster.

[Spacehamster]

Definitely go sword and board. If you're dead set on going that many levels into the martial class, I'd say go Fighter. It's going to be way less MAD as well as provide a solid chassis of martial abilities that you're looking for. You'll also be getting that sweet Con Save proficiency. My personal recommendation would be Battlemaster, but any way you go is going to be useful. Here is what I'd go with for the build.

Human Variant: I'm going with Shieldmaster, you can go with whatever suits your fancy. +1 str, +1 wis

15
10
14
8
15
8

Level 1: Fighting Style (Defense or Dueling, I'd prefer Defense myself)
Level 3: Battlemaster (Pick up Tripping attack at the least)
Level 4: ASI (I'd bump Wis or Str, but if a feat looks tasty to you here, go for it)
Level 6: After 5 levels of Fighter, pick up your first level of Cleric. This is so you qualify for the Warcaster feat
Level 7: Fighter ASI (Pick up Warcaster here)
Level 8: Back to Cleric leveling and never look back. Max out Str or Wis based on your desire.


So first 5 levels of Fighter for all your martial goodies plus some short rest Battlemaster stuff. Level 6 should definitely be your first Cleric level. You then have a decision to make. You can pick up that 6th Fighter level for your ASI (Warcaster preferred) or continue down Cleric waiting for Cleric 4 to pick up Warcaster.

Is warcaster worth it when you can have holy symbol on shield + already got prof in con saves? :)
Otherwise nice points thx a lot. :)

[Biggstick]

Is warcaster worth it when you can have holy symbol on shield + already got prof in con saves? :)
Otherwise nice points thx a lot. :)

You are planning on being a primary martial, meaning you're going to be in melee range. You're going to be getting hit quite often, and having advantage on that save will be beneficial.

Also being able to opportunity attack opponents with a spell (Command) is going to be much more effective the higher level you get.

[KorvinStarmast]

You are planning on being a primary martial, meaning you're going to be in melee range. You're going to be getting hit quite often, and having advantage on that save will be beneficial.
FWIW, I'd recommend that first ASI be Wisdom (to an 18) to get the next bump up for the DC. As monsters get bigger and their save profs go up, each bit of DC helps your various spells, though I'd tend to use Sprit Guardian or Bless a lot in this build.

(Your BM suggestion is a very good one, combined with shield feat).

[Biggstick]

FWIW, I'd recommend that first ASI be Wisdom (to an 18) to get the next bump up for the DC. As monsters get bigger and their save profs go up, each bit of DC helps your various spells, though I'd tend to use Sprit Guardian or Bless a lot in this build.

I definitely agree on the first ASI being Wisdom, but I wanted to put all the options out there. And since this build will not have access to Spirit Guardians for quite some time, running Bless is going to be the go-to spell with this build.

[Gtdead]

S+W > 2h weapon. Only reason to do that is GWM. GWM on a single attack is awful, especially if you want to use bb. Consider that at lvl 8, cleric does 2d6+2d8+5=21 with bb. If he adds gwm, he will do 31*0.75=23.25. It's only mildly good if you don't bother with any other spell than bless. Spending a feat on a ASI starved class to increase your dpr by 2 is silly. The other reason would be pam, but we already have SW for this.

Paladin is pointless. If you want to spend a lvl 1 slot on smite, go sorcerer instead and quicken your booming blade. At lvl 10 the damage is 5d8+10. At lvl 11 it's 7d8+10.
With smite you need to blow a lvl 4 spell slot + SW to match this damage. The best part is that if you go the sorcerer route, you can still get magic initiate for Shillelagh and BB. And you can deal some awesome burst with quickened call lightning + CD.

About fighter. Cleric's most powerful spells are concentration. He can't make good use of Action Surge (like an evoker wizard could do for example with scorching rays, or various other spell combos). He already has full proficiencies. The only way this can work is if he gets 5 lvls of fighter for double attack, bless, GWM, presicion strike, possible 2 levels of barbarian for reckless attack, and deal almost full GWM dpr against high AC enemies. This won't evolve into a cleric build though. It will only benefit from a lvl 1 dip to get bless. Anything more is going to be wasted. He could try to use action surge with a lightning/thunder spell and CD, but this can work with Sorcerer too. The only benefit would be defense style imo.

Ranger has a very special niche that I just love. Absorb elements! Who cares about resilient con when you can reduce most magic attacks down to a DC 10 concentration check! Warcaster is going to be more than enough. From a dpr perspective, it will just add CS, and will probably force you to get BB instead of shillelagh and pump strength, but of all the martial options, this is the one I like the most.

[Biggstick]

About fighter. Cleric's most powerful spells are concentration. He can't make good use of Action Surge (like an evoker wizard could do for example with scorching rays, or various other spell combos). He already has full proficiencies. The only way this can work is if he gets 5 lvls of fighter for double attack, bless, GWM, presicion strike, possible 2 levels of barbarian for reckless attack, and deal almost full GWM dpr against high AC enemies. This won't evolve into a cleric build though. It will only benefit from a lvl 1 dip to get bless. Anything more is going to be wasted. He could try to use action surge with a lightning/thunder spell and CD, but this can work with Sorcerer too. The only benefit would be defense style imo.

Being able to Action Surge any of the buff or concentration spells of a Cleric out in round 1 is incredibly useful. Examples include but aren't limited to: Bless, Shield of Faith, Hold Person, Silence, Protection from Energy, Bestow Curse, Spirit Guardians, etc etc. These are just levels 1-3. As for being able to make good use of Action Surge for something like damage, examples of spells that you can combo with your Action Surged attack include: Guiding Bolt (Advantage on next attack roll if you hit, 4d6 damage at level 1 and it scales up based on level of spell), Blindness/Deafness (non concentration spell which if they fail the con save, they can be blind, thus granting you advantage on your next attack rolls), Dispel Magic (Remove a buff from an enemy before attacking), Freedom of Movement (effective on yourself or an ally), etc etc.

Spiritual Weapon is great damage spell for a Cleric that doesn't require concentration, only a bonus action.

You're a much tankier Cleric that will be gaining access to their spells later in the game, but the trade-off is a bit stronger martial capabilities in the early game. He's going to be able to make great use of all the Cleric and Fighter capabilities.


Ranger has a very special niche that I just love. Absorb elements! Who cares about resilient con when you can reduce most magic attacks down to a DC 10 concentration check! Warcaster is going to be more than enough. From a dpr perspective, it will just add CS, and will probably force you to get BB instead of shillelagh and pump strength, but of all the martial options, this is the one I like the most.

If the player's game allows AE to be used, then yes, Ranger is totally fine as well. The thing is about having Con proficiency is that you're going to take more physical damage throughout the duration of your adventuring career. AE doesn't help with the concentration checks for physical damage, so that's where having the proficiency is helpful. You also run into the issue of where does one stop when dipping Ranger? Do you stop at 3? 5? 6? If I had to guess, it'd probably be level 5 since the OP wants to have two attacks per turn. This puts us in an awkward situation as for requirements to multi class as well. A pro's and con's list will probably work out better for Ranger and Fighter.

I'm not going to include something if both classes have it (Fighting style, extra attack, etc etc.). We're also going to assume that we're going to level 6 for both of these classes. I'll include a pro's list and then a taste list.


Ranger pro's: One extra Skill, Favored Enemy/Natural Explorer (2 of each), 3rd level spell caster, and then Horde Breaker/Colossus Slayer.
Ranger taste: Str/Dex saves, more difficult multi classing requirements.
(Potentially a better choice if you can somehow make the higher multi classing requirements of having Str/Dex/Con/Wis all at respectable enough levels to operate. You won't have Con proficiency for your saves of being in constant melee. You will start your Cleric life at a higher caster level though (caster level 4))

Fighter pro's: Action Surge, Second Wind, Combat Maneuvers, and a second ASI.
Fighter taste: Str/Con saves, simpler multi classing requirement.
(Definitely a little lower on the stat requirements, still MAD though with Str/Con/Wis all competing for attention. You'll have Con saves and great short rest recovery mechanics from Battlemaster. Unfortunately you won't be doing very much Cleric'ing till later in the game)



Overall, if you have the godly stat rolls to support it, I could see Ranger being a viable option if you were more focused on being a spellcaster. I personally would still stick with Fighter though. Way too many goodies with Action Surge, Maneuvers, and that valuable second ASI.

[Gtdead]

Being able to Action Surge any of the buff or concentration spells of a Cleric out in round 1 is incredibly useful. Examples include but aren't limited to: Bless, Shield of Faith, Hold Person, Silence, Protection from Energy, Bestow Curse, Spirit Guardians, etc etc. These are just levels 1-3. As for being able to make good use of Action Surge for something like damage, examples of spells that you can combo with your Action Surged attack include: Guiding Bolt (Advantage on next attack roll if you hit, 4d6 damage at level 1 and it scales up based on level of spell), Blindness/Deafness (non concentration spell which if they fail the con save, they can be blind, thus granting you advantage on your next attack rolls), Dispel Magic (Remove a buff from an enemy before attacking), Freedom of Movement (effective on yourself or an ally), etc etc.


Almost all of these combos can be done with quicken which was my point all along. Sorcerer gives arguably better save proficiencies, better utility, better damage, easier feat selection (second attack is fine, but is it better than scag cantrips? hardly, unless we get duelist, which is thing is a dumb idea. This way we can have both scag cantrips and shillelagh, essentially making the build SAD with a 13 cha requirement, easily manageable.

Quicken is bit more limited in combos, but it offers substancially more damage and control and it's at will. For example twin a lure into a sg zone and quicken a gfb. Amazing control and huge dpr it comes online by lvl 8.

I can definitely see the simplicity in the Fighter 6/Cleric x build. Easier stat alocation, more ASIs. Sorc/Cleric will probably work better with Medium Armor, it has only 2 dump stats while Fighter has 3. But it slows down spell progression too much for my liking. If the difference in damage was substancial I'd bother with it, but in all honesty.. it isnt ;p

[Biggstick]

Almost all of these combos can be done with quicken which was my point all along. Sorcerer gives arguably better save proficiencies, better utility, better damage, easier feat selection (second attack is fine, but is it better than scag cantrips? hardly, unless we get duelist, which is thing is a dumb idea. This way we can have both scag cantrips and shillelagh, essentially making the build SAD with a 13 cha requirement, easily manageable.

Save proficiencies? Fighter and Sorc both provide Con proficiency. Unless your argument is Str vs Cha, I'm not sure how one is better then the other.

Utility/damage? If you're talking nova, then Sorcerer's will probably win that out. The Fighter abilities are going to provide just as much utility though with the Maneuvers.

Easier feat selection? What do you mean here? He's trying to build a "More martial tempest cleric." He doesn't need any feats other then Warcaster. Anything else is just extra and it's been voiced throughout the thread. Any additional feats he selects will probably be providing that more martial feel that he's looking for.

The SCAG cantrips are nice, but unless you can actually consistently trigger the rider effect, you're going to be better off with the second attack. I'm also curious as to where you're getting shilelagh....


Quicken is bit more limited in combos, but it offers substancially more damage and control and it's at will. For example twin a lure into a sg zone and quicken a gfb. Amazing control and huge dpr it comes online by lvl 8.

He's not asking for more damage, he's asking for a "More martial tempest cleric." Casting LL to pull someone into the Spirit Guardians spell is kind of a moot point as they're already within the 15' radius of the spell if you can hit them with LL. It's also an extremely SP heavy combo that you've presented that is only doable a couple times per day based on how quickly you're burning through spells. The build and combo you've presented isn't a more martial build, it's a primary caster cleric with some sorcery points.


I can definitely see the simplicity in the Fighter 6/Cleric x build. Easier stat alocation, more ASIs. Sorc/Cleric will probably work better with Medium Armor, it has only 2 dump stats while Fighter has 3. But it slows down spell progression too much for my liking. If the difference in damage was substancial I'd bother with it, but in all honesty.. it isnt ;p

You're not going to be able to make any sort of decent stat progression until late game. You have to get Warcaster and max out your Wisdom at the very least, and you'll only have 4 ASI's.

[Gtdead]

Easier feat selection? What do you mean here? He's trying to build a "More martial tempest cleric." He doesn't need any feats other then Warcaster. Anything else is just extra and it's been voiced throughout the thread. Any additional feats he selects will probably be providing that more martial feel that he's looking for.

That's what I meant with easier feat selection. He can customize it however he likes, while my sorc/cleric has an additional feat tax and less ASI.



The SCAG cantrips are nice, but unless you can actually consistently trigger the rider effect, you're going to be better off with the second attack. I'm also curious as to where you're getting shilelagh....

I get shillelagh through MI (vhuman), scag cantrips through sorcerer. I can go for sorcerer 4 to grab an extra ASI, but this depends on what level the campaign is supposed to go.
You need to proc the rider once every 2 attacks to match the extra attack. It's not that hard with gfb, especially if you are set on control like my build does.



He's not asking for more damage, he's asking for a "More martial tempest cleric." Casting LL to pull someone into the Spirit Guardians spell is kind of a moot point as they're already within the 15' radius of the spell if you can hit them with LL. It's also an extremely SP heavy combo that you've presented that is only doable a couple times per day based on how quickly you're burning through spells. The build and combo you've presented isn't a more martial build, it's a primary caster cleric with some sorcery points.

The SG+LL combo isn't there to add more damage to SG, it's there to control, force attacks of opportunity, and not let anyone get out of range ever. It's different to have 3 enemies at the edge of your SG than having 3 of them right next to you, with a shield spell ready. My build sticks to the enemies like glue. Nothing they can do about it other than try to kill me.

I hardly see how a fighter 6/cleric 2 is a "more martial tempest cleric". At lvl 14 perhaps it's eligible, but pre lvl 10 it's hardly a cleric build. By lvl 8 my build is a fully functional gish with most of the tempest cleric flavor. By lvl 8 your build is no different than a lvl 6 fighter with a random cleric dip. Sure my build doesn't have unlimited resources, but it's more than you think. It can do what it is designed to do 3-5 times per day. And it's designed to be an "in your face" build with a lot of melee damage, which can switch to support/full caster whenever it feels like.

Also the OP asked which martial class adds more to the tempest chassis. My argument is that whatever fighter or paladin can add, sorcerer can do too. Ranger is the more unique one because he has a niche.



You're not going to be able to make any sort of decent stat progression until late game. You have to get Warcaster and max out your Wisdom at the very least, and you'll only have 4 ASI's.
[/quote]
Depending on the game, my build can have MI, WC, and 20 WIS either by lvl 12, or by lvl 15, depending on whether I go 3 or 4 lvls sorcerer.
I can choose to go STR instead of MI and WIS if I want to. If I want to go STR, I can have it 20 by lvl 9. 4 lvls of Sorc will make him more bursty too. But I'd rather not because cleric really shines at higher levels and by then it doesn't matter if he can swing a sword that well.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's what I meant with easier feat selection. He can customize it however he likes, while my sorc/cleric has an additional feat tax and less ASI. I'll say that I found Tempest Cleric, played from level 1 to just short of 7 before the campaign went into stasis, as OK enough at melee for the first few levels. The spells/buffs began to kick in at 3 such that the party was a lot better off with him as a single class. When level 5 showed up (and thus 3d level spells) they were very glad I had not multi-classed. The ASI went into wisdom to keep the DC curve going. We had a couple encounters outdoors where Call Lightning made a huge difference. ( And I had to make three con saves to keep it going :smallyuk: )

[Mark Drury]

Hi,

Ive been playing a Tempest Cleric for a few months now, just reworked him slightly for a new campaign.

Previous incarnation
Lvl 1 Fighter/lvl 7 Tempest Cleric Variant Human
Str 10 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8
Feats
V human Magic initiate druid (gooseberry/Shillelagh/Produce flame)
Lvl 4 Polearm mastery
AC20 Half plate +1 shield
Wielding staff of charming with shillelagh 1d8+5 and 1d4+5 pole arm 2nd attack.
My thoughts on this variant, the 2 attacks kind of screws up the optimization a bit using the bonus action for the 2nd, running 1 attack with booming blade and spiritual weapon would give slightly higher average damage.

New incarnation
Lvl 1 Fighter/Lvl 8 Tempest Cleric Variant Human
Str 15 Dex 11 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 18 Cha 8
Feats
V Human Magic initiate Warlock (Mage hand/Armor of agathys reflavoured to thunder damage/Booming Blade)
Lvl 4 Resilient dex
lvl 8 ASI+2 wisdom
Fighting style duelling.

Has AC21 full plate and +1 shield, carries Drown trident from POTA.

He's handy in melee combat, doing 1d6+5 +1d8 cold (from drown) +1d8 divine strike +1d8 Booming blade once per round averaging 22 per round, not bad for a cleric. Outdoors he's positively lethal, throwing around lvl 4 call lightning with 2 shots at 40 damage followed by as many 4d10 as he can retain concentration for (initial fighter level giving con save proficiency so i'm +7 on concentration checks). Next level I get Destructive wave for 30 points thunder damage (with channel divinity) + 5d6 radiant damage.

I thought about racking up the fighter levels, for eldritch knight but decided to go more cleric, but I have become our parties primary caster so need to beef up the AOE.

Hope this helps.

[Gtdead]

I'll say that I found Tempest Cleric, played from level 1 to just short of 7 before the campaign went into stasis, as OK enough at melee for the first few levels. The spells/buffs began to kick in at 3 such that the party was a lot better off with him as a single class. When level 5 showed up (and thus 3d level spells) they were very glad I had not multi-classed. The ASI went into wisdom to keep the DC curve going. We had a couple encounters outdoors where Call Lightning made a huge difference. ( And I had to make three con saves to keep it going :smallyuk: )

Well it's true. Till level 5, the only difference in output between a Cleric and a Martial is access to Fighting Style.
My build starts as Sorcerer to grab Con proficiency, from there on, I just pump Cleric levels till I feel it's enough.

Personally I think that lvl 5 is what makes the cleric unique. These long concentration spells. There is a trick with quicken that allows the build to doubletap call lightning in the first round. This coupled with CD can do huge burst, and the best part is that it's reliable. Even if it misses, it still does damage because it's a dex save, it has a small aoe radius. Amazing spell.