When do you allow a second Long Rest?

[Wakrob]

The rules say you can not benefit from a second Long Rest in the same 24 hours. So....this begs some questions.

How do you handle that 24 hours?
-Resets at the stroke of midnight? Sunset? (this would allow two Long Rests back to back each within a different 24 hours bracket...)
-Wait 24 since the last Long Rest? (this wouldnt really work because then your day+rest would be 32 hours)
-Wait 16 hours...? (now if you dont Long Rest exactly at 16 hours after the last one your bedtime would be forced to get later and later)

Wakrob

[Sigreid]

As long as they don't take a long rest and continue with the same day, I don't worry about it too much.

[Ashrym]

Generally when they make camp and sleep for the night. I know it's simple and makes sense, but a person has to go with general intent over trying to manipulate the rules to squeeze out an advantage sometimes. ;-)

[DanyBallon]

Allow only once per day, whenever it make sense for them to take one. No need t enforce a strict schedule for resting. And to players that may want to abuse from long rest by taking two consecutive long rest, let them do and tell them nothings happened and they just lost 8 hours of adventuring today. You could even go further by having them spend a downtime day.

[DracoKnight]

Generally when they make camp and sleep for the night. I know it's simple and makes sense, but a person has to go with general intent over trying to manipulate the rules to squeeze out an advantage sometimes. ;-)

This. My players long rest at night. While they're sleeping. When it makes sense that their bodies would recover from the pains of the day.

EDIT: I forget whether it's within the parameters of the long rest by RAW, but I do allow players to stand watch while long resting. So long as they're not standing watch more than like 2 hours :smalltongue:

[Wakrob]

The thing was...we got really beat up early in the dungeon but couldnt leave....so we had to wait like 20 hours in one room of a dungeon to rest.

Wakrob

[Tanarii]

The thing was...we got really beat up early in the dungeon but couldnt leave....so we had to wait like 20 hours in one room of a dungeon to rest.You got lucky you found a safe spot to hole up for 20 hours in that case. :smallamused:

[EvanescentHero]

My players take a long rest at night, while they sleep. I also allow two-hour shifts for watch. If they rest during the day, it's a short rest.

[Wakrob]

You got lucky you found a safe spot to hole up for 20 hours in that case. :smallamused:

Yeah *grin*.

It was an undead type place that they only activated when you went into their specific room. And there was an angry young dragon waiting for us outside.

Wakrob

[Malifice]

Yeah *grin*.

It was an undead type place that they only activated when you went into their specific room. And there was an angry young dragon waiting for us outside.

Wakrob

Surprised it didnt come in looking for you.

[Gastronomie]

And that's why Leomund's Tiny Hut is a wonderful spell…

OT: Allowing multiple long rests most likely results in the Casters gaining a lot more than the Tanks and generally isn't fair. Being the DM, you could always screw the rules, but do it wisely, and only when it's absolutely required (you REALLY messed up encounter difficulties etc.)

[Grod_The_Giant]

And that's why Leomund's Tiny Hut is a wonderful spell…

OT: Allowing multiple long rests most likely results in the Casters gaining a lot more than the Tanks and generally isn't fair. Being the DM, you could always screw the rules, but do it wisely, and only when it's absolutely required (you REALLY messed up encounter difficulties etc.)
To be fair, the healing isn't nothing. And some tank builds (Bearbarian, say) certainly enjoy the long rests.

[Gastronomie]

To be fair, the healing isn't nothing. And some tank builds (Bearbarian, say) certainly enjoy the long rests.
Well yeah, depends on class. But Monks, Fighters, Warlocks and stuff like that wouldn't gain nearly as much the benefits.

[Knaight]

Surprised it didnt come in looking for you.

Maybe it wasn't stupid enough to go onto enemy picked terrain which completely takes away its flight advantage.

[bid]

-Wait 24 since the last Long Rest? (this wouldnt really work because then your day+rest would be 32 hours)
You benefit at the end of the long rest. You could technically start a new long rest 1 hour after ending the previous one, but you'd have to stay in long rest 23 hours before gaining the benefits.

[Malifice]

Maybe it wasn't stupid enough to go onto enemy picked terrain which completely takes away its flight advantage.

Yet in this case it would have won.

[Knaight]

Yet in this case it would have won.

Which it would only have known if it had information it probably didn't have. A dumb decision that works because you got lucky is still a dumb decision.

[Malifice]

Which it would only have known if it had information it probably didn't have. A dumb decision that works because you got lucky is still a dumb decision.

We had a saying in the Army:

A stupid plan that works - isnt a stupid plan.

[JohanOfKitten]

Almost everytime, my players take a long rest when night falls. They sleep, then it's done. If they stop earlier in the day, they could make things (crafting, reading, hunting, chating, watching etc...), then sleep and gain the recover from a long rest.


I authorized a double long rest once :
They had a long exhausting day and one character has made long hours of guerilla on a progressing army of zombies. Quite unharmed, but exhaustedby the constant running and alertness it demand.

He gained 2 levels of exhaustion, but knew that the next evening, he will have to fight for the siege of the city.
Between 6PM and 8PM, he did quiet actions, like a warm bath, a big hot meal and a quick appereance in the strategic meeting, then went to sleep. He sleeped from 8PM to 11-12AM (so 15-16 hours of sleeps) and spare himself the rest of the day, doing not tiring preparation of the city and just one hour or two of scouting outside.

I accepted that he lost the two levels of exhaustion at once.
The conditions was good for it (resting in an inn, food, warmth, no risk of an errand monster bumping into him), it kept him away of some actions (the other character stay longer at the strategic meetic, and did rituals and other things in the morning). But it was a very specific situation and I don't think it will happen again.

[NewDM]

The rules say you can not benefit from a second Long Rest in the same 24 hours. So....this begs some questions.

How do you handle that 24 hours?
-Resets at the stroke of midnight? Sunset? (this would allow two Long Rests back to back each within a different 24 hours bracket...)
-Wait 24 since the last Long Rest? (this wouldnt really work because then your day+rest would be 32 hours)
-Wait 16 hours...? (now if you dont Long Rest exactly at 16 hours after the last one your bedtime would be forced to get later and later)

Wakrob

Wait where does it say that? Nevermind, I thought you were talking about a short rest. What they mean is once per day the players can take a long rest. If they want another long rest they have to wait until the next day. They can't start another long rest until 24 hours after they started the previous one. This means every 24 hours they can take a long rest.

However this rule is pointless because the players will simply have their characters hole up somewhere and wait out the rest of the day until they hit the magic hour at the 24 mark and then rest anyway.

[raspin]

I let them long rest once a day (or once every 24 hours but the 24 hour period includes the long rest. Not 24 hours, 8 hours rest, 24 hours. That would be silly. ).

I think it only matters if pcs are trying to game it. They go to bed at sundown one night and midnight another? So what.

If they go looking for a long rest again at mid day laugh at them and offer a short rest instead

Or you could give it to them and then make them not be able to sleep that night because they're not tired, Their body clock is out of whack and they got no benefit. They get really tired midday next day and start to suffer exhaustion in the late afternoon if they don't sleep. They become nocturnal or sleep at night but soon realise they will only benefit from one long rest.

[Malifice]

However this rule is pointless because the players will simply have their characters hole up somewhere and wait out the rest of the day until they hit the magic hour at the 24 mark and then rest anyway.

Lazy DM is lazy.

Time limit your damn adventures. No-one, anywhere, has all the time in the world to do their job. No adventure story written by anyone ever has ever had the heroes have all the time in the word to save it.

If youre the kind of DM that hands out quests or objectives and cant be bothered setting a time limit on them, you deserve all the nova striking 5 minute adventuring day long rest shennanigans your players throw back at you.

Expect caster dominance to be a thing again.

[KorvinStarmast]

We had a saying in the Army:

A stupid plan that works - isnt a stupid plan. And sometimes, a DM providing a monster or NPC with omniscience is considered meta-gaming, or railroading. (PS, that Army saying has traveled across service boundaries. :smallbiggrin: )

[Malifice]

And sometimes, a DM providing a monster or NPC with omniscience is considered meta-gaming, or railroading. (PS, that Army saying has traveled across service boundaries. :smallbiggrin: )

Its perfectly feasable for the dragon to come looking for the PCs. Hubris and all. It may assume they're wounded and holing up (as it turns out correctly).

[Ruslan]

When would I allow a second long rest? Never. Players who join my group are told at Session Zero that they only get one long rest for their entire tenure with the group. Better use it wisely.

[raspin]

Joking aside, I think the chap above has it about right. Ooc just tell them they get one. They can either accept that, or you can expend energy coming up with painful ways to ensure they get the idea...

[Ashrym]

The thing was...we got really beat up early in the dungeon but couldnt leave....so we had to wait like 20 hours in one room of a dungeon to rest.

Wakrob

Short rests recharge a lot of things, particularly hit points via HD expenditure because the group was beat up.

If the group was out of resources that they needed a long rest and a short rest wasn't sufficient then I would be looking at what happened more closely to find out why that might have happened.

Generally, it takes us 2-3 short rests just to spend our hit dice, which results in short rest recharges or other abilities (like song of rest and font of inspiration in my case). Even a particularly harsh early session brings a lot of hit point recovery.

[Rhaegar]

This. My players long rest at night. While they're sleeping. When it makes sense that their bodies would recover from the pains of the day.

EDIT: I forget whether it's within the parameters of the long rest by RAW, but I do allow players to stand watch while long resting. So long as they're not standing watch more than like 2 hours :smalltongue:

That's actually exactly what the rules say:

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

[Coffee_Dragon]

That's actually exactly what the rules say:

A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

Since my group consists of 4 players, we have a house rule saying three people can get a long rest in 8-9 hours while still having someone on watch at all time.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Lazy DM is lazy.

Time limit your damn adventures. No-one, anywhere, has all the time in the world to do their job. No adventure story written by anyone ever has ever had the heroes have all the time in the word to save it.

If youre the kind of DM that hands out quests or objectives and cant be bothered setting a time limit on them, you deserve all the nova striking 5 minute adventuring day long rest shennanigans your players throw back at you.

Expect caster dominance to be a thing again.
While the world should absolutely move on while players rest, it strains belief that everything is on a tight timer. Some "hurry up and finish" quests are fine, but you can't be constantly rushing around for 20 levels. Take Lord of the Rings-- there were sequences like the trip to Rivendell or the run across Rohan that were facing a ticking clock, but I find it hard to see that during, say, the journey down the river, or Sam and Frodo's... anything, really.

[Demonslayer666]

I'm pretty flexible with resting. If they needed two long rests in a row for some reason, like to get rid of two levels of exhaustion, I'd allow it if they had the time.

It just depends on what they are trying to do.

[Vogonjeltz]

The rules say you can not benefit from a second Long Rest in the same 24 hours. So....this begs some questions.

How do you handle that 24 hours?
-Resets at the stroke of midnight? Sunset? (this would allow two Long Rests back to back each within a different 24 hours bracket...)
-Wait 24 since the last Long Rest? (this wouldnt really work because then your day+rest would be 32 hours)
-Wait 16 hours...? (now if you dont Long Rest exactly at 16 hours after the last one your bedtime would be forced to get later and later)

Wakrob

Benefit happens at the end of the rest. So long as they aren't benefitting from two long rests within 24 hours it's fine.

So if they start the long rest at midnight, and end at 8am, they could not benefit from the next long rest until 8am the next day.

[Xetheral]

Benefit happens at the end of the rest. So long as they aren't benefitting from two long rests within 24 hours it's fine.

So if they start the long rest at midnight, and end at 8am, they could not benefit from the next long rest until 8am the next day.

If you enforce that strictly you run into the problem of inevitable rest-creep, where if the party goes to bed later than (e.g.) midnight even once, they are stuck not finishing their long rest until after 8:00 AM every day thereafter, until they deliberately go without a long rest one night.

[Malifice]

While the world should absolutely move on while players rest, it strains belief that everything is on a tight timer. Some "hurry up and finish" quests are fine, but you can't be constantly rushing around for 20 levels. Take Lord of the Rings-- there were sequences like the trip to Rivendell or the run across Rohan that were facing a ticking clock, but I find it hard to see that during, say, the journey down the river, or Sam and Frodo's... anything, really.

They were running against several clocks. Sauron and Sauroman were looking for them at all times, and both were building strength for an assault on ME. In addition to other time constraints of individual mini quests, the entire plot had one.

Most adventures do. Luke Skywalker didnt have all the time in the world to blow up the death star, and once the heroes broke into the death star to save Leia, the clock was ticking. They were being hunted by stormtroopers at Mos Eisley etc.

Sadly in my experience far too many DMs dont turn their minds to this question when designing adventures, and PCs have all the time in the world to wander about, rest or do what they want with little consequence.

Its a vital part of narrative and dramatic pacing in any movie, novel or story. In a game lke DnD (which is at it heart a resource management game, where resources replenish over time) its even more vital for mechanical reasons.

[Grod_The_Giant]

To be sure, but they were much more along the lines of plot-fiat timing than anything else. There was a threat, but not a "we have two days to do the thing before we all die." There was plenty of downtime, plenty of steady-but-not-rushed travel.

If you're really having an issue with players resting every fight, I'd say they're pretty clearly not interested in the resource management side of things. You'll probably all get more enjoyment out of switching to the epic resting rules then by shoehorning in strict time limits.

[bid]

If you're really having an issue with players resting every fight, I'd say they're pretty clearly not interested in the resource management side of things. You'll probably all get more enjoyment out of switching to the epic resting rules then by shoehorning in strict time limits.
Or by making fights so easy they don't feel the need to rest.

[Malifice]

To be sure, but they were much more along the lines of plot-fiat timing than anything else. There was a threat, but not a "we have two days to do the thing before we all die." There was plenty of downtime, plenty of steady-but-not-rushed travel.

There were plenty of days of travel... with nothing happening. Effectively downtime. They still had BBEGS hunting them (the nine, Sauron, Sauroman, Uruk Hai etc) making rest a choice (Weathertop is what happens when they long rested).

Then there were bits of adventure within this meta-plot where resting was even more difficult and they were forced to push on and couldnt hole up to rest even if they wanted to. Being pursued by the Balrog in Moria, Ringwraiths, chasing the Uruk Hai to save the Hobbits etc


If you're really having an issue with players resting every fight, I'd say they're pretty clearly not interested in the resource management side of things. You'll probably all get more enjoyment out of switching to the epic resting rules then by shoehorning in strict time limits.

Thats just forcing resource management on them via mechanical methods rather than narrative ones though.

If the BBEG has the macguffin, why? Just to place it on his mantlepiece for lols? Or is he hell bent on using it to summon a demon in 24 hours in fulfilment of his tragic plan to bring his long lost love back from the dead and wreak terrible vengance on her killers... and the PCs who are trying to thwart him? Which is more exciting and dramatic and adds an extra dimension to the game?

Police your adventuring days peeps. There are narrative methods to stop rest/encounter/rest/encounter/ rest shennanigans that are fun, and add to the game.

[Knaight]

There were plenty of days of travel... with nothing happening. Effectively downtime. They still had BBEGS hunting them (the nine, Sauron, Sauroman, Uruk Hai etc) making rest a choice (Weathertop is what happens when they long rested).

Then there were bits of adventure within this meta-plot where resting was even more difficult and they were forced to push on and couldnt hole up to rest even if they wanted to. Being pursued by the Balrog in Moria, Ringwraiths, chasing the Uruk Hai to save the Hobbits etc
On the D&D time scale, that still leaves plenty of time to recover in many cases. It's not like they went from the battle of Helms Deep straight into another fight without resting in between.


Police your adventuring days peeps. There are narrative methods to stop rest/encounter/rest/encounter/ rest shennanigans that are fun, and add to the game.
The system side mandate of adventuring day after adventuring day where every notable conflict is jammed in with a bunch of other conflicts does not "add to the game". It's a heavy restriction on what the game can do, and while it does make the game better within this specific niche, it's hardly an unalloyed good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

There were plenty of days of travel... with nothing happening. Effectively downtime. They still had BBEGS hunting them (the nine, Sauron, Sauroman, Uruk Hai etc) making rest a choice (Weathertop is what happens when they long rested).

Then there were bits of adventure within this meta-plot where resting was even more difficult and they were forced to push on and couldnt hole up to rest even if they wanted to. Being pursued by the Balrog in Moria, Ringwraiths, chasing the Uruk Hai to save the Hobbits etc
Right. There were bits where they didn't have time to rest and had to run from fight to fight. Not constantly. Those wouldn't be tense moments if the whole story was on that kind of schedule. Save the ticking clock for the climactic moments where it belongs.


Thats just forcing resource management on them via mechanical methods rather than narrative ones though.

Or by making fights so easy they don't feel the need to rest.
Um, no? If the players want to rest after every encounter, then either
A) The encounters are so difficult they feel like they need to rest and recover resources, or
B) They don't enjoy having to conserve resources.
In either case, the Epic Heroism variant is perfect. It largely frees them from the need to hoard limited-use abilities (especially for short rest characters), and it lets the DM crank up the difficulty of the fights without worrying about exhausting the players. Everyone has more fun, and the narrative doesn't have to be shaped by the mechanical need for resting.


The system side mandate of adventuring day after adventuring day where every notable conflict is jammed in with a bunch of other conflicts does not "add to the game". It's a heavy restriction on what the game can do, and while it does make the game better within this specific niche, it's hardly an unalloyed good.
Very much this.

[Cybren]

Everything that happens in the game should have some ramification. It could be "do they break in to the evil counts house or sneak in?" Or it could be "do we take a night to recoup before heading off to relieve the dwarven fortress about to besieged or do we forced march through dangerous territory?". If you don't, as a DM, make those decisions (not choices, because generally they should just be organic events as they play out, and not discrete, visible choices with n options choose from) matter, then you're giving up a lot of good story opportunities and gratification for you players. Everything you do should be the result of some decision that someone has made. When do they take their next long rest? Any time they want, as long as it happens roughly some time a dayish later than their last long rest. If there's nothing pressing about this particular situation, why do we care? They may as well be throwing a party and staying up late.


Incidentally, 'begging the question' does not mean 'raises the question'. Begging the question is a logical fallacy that tries to use a restatement of your argument as its own proof.

[Tanarii]

On the D&D time scale, that still leaves plenty of time to recover in many cases. It's not like they went from the battle of Helms Deep straight into another fight without resting in between.Helms Deep, in fact the majority of the fight scenes, are multiple D&D "encounters". Not just one. Most of them you have to work really hard to make them work with modern D&D's focus on small-party tactics ... they're mass combats, and you need to have chunks of the combat occurring around the players as a non-interactive backdrop to the part they're focusing on. So effectively, they're a series of wave encounters. The hardest part is they don't work well with a 1 hr Short Rest. The Epic Hero 5 min short rest variant actually works better for large mass combats like that in 5e.


The system side mandate of adventuring day after adventuring day where every notable conflict is jammed in with a bunch of other conflicts does not "add to the game". It's a heavy restriction on what the game can do, and while it does make the game better within this specific niche, it's hardly an unalloyed good.It adds to the default game that D&D is designed for. Dungeon Delving.

[Knaight]

It adds to the default game that D&D is designed for. Dungeon Delving.

Exactly. Within the specific niche of resource management focused dungeon delving, it makes the game better. Outside of that niche, the system starts to break down, and it's not because of bad DMing.

[Tanarii]

Exactly. Within the specific niche of resource management focused dungeon delving, it makes the game better. Outside of that niche, the system starts to break down, and it's not because of bad DMing.Which is why they presented alternatives in the DMG.

Edit: It's a historical problem for D&D. Because daily resources / vancian casting. It's also one which 4e and 5e have actually tried to address. This edition does a pretty good job of laying out how it works, emphasizing a style that works for Dungeon Delving, which is the bread and butter of D&D. And it provides alternatives for to try and make it work for other styles of play.

Which is far better than the oldest editions, which gave you nothing as a DM to use as a effective baseline. Unless you went with the very oldest assumption ... that one "day" is one session in the dungeon, after which you return to base.

Also, calling Dungeon Delving a "specific niche" betrays your bias. Dungeon Delving (or adventures that work in a similar way) is what the entirety of D&D is designed to resolve around.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh, I agree that this is the best edition for resource management adjusting. The variant rules in the DMG are brilliant. But I think it's myopic to say that D&D is "about dungeon crawling." That's certainly the history, but the game has evolved-- and perhaps more importantly, for most people "D&D" is synonymous with "tabletop rpg." Because of that, because it is so many people's first game, it needs to be held to higher standards of approachablility and flexibility than other, more obscure games. That's why, despite a never-ending hunger for tweaks, I'll happily call 5e the best edition in decades, if not ever.

[Specter]

I hate the fact that in 5e all HP can be recovered just by sleeping, so I houseruled it like this:

In a long rest, characters can spend Hit Dice as normal. But unlike the short rest, they regain all expended dice usage at the end of that rest. If they want to take another long rest right after that, to a total of 16 hours, they can, but this time without recovering spell slots.

[Tanarii]

But I think it's myopic to say that D&D is "about dungeon crawling.".

It's about dungeon delving (or adventures that work in a similar way)

http://theangrygm.com/every-adventures-a-dungeon/

[Grod_The_Giant]

.

It's about dungeon delving (or adventures that work in a similar way)

http://theangrygm.com/every-adventures-a-dungeon/
An excellent advice column, but pure semantics in this case. You object to my use of the word "dungeon?" Fine. Let's say instead that "the game should be good for more than a rapid-fire series of largely combat encounters with little chance to safely rest or retreat, where the characters are worn down by attrition as much as mortal danger."

Edit: Really, it's "attrition" that's the key. "The game should be good for more than attrition-based adventures."

[Tanarii]

Why? It's always been a game about resource attrition. Well ... historically it was also a game about not getting in over your head as well.

Like I said, the 5 minute workday has always been a problem. When the DM allows it to be. Because that's not what the game is designed for. Nor has it been.

At least this edition explicitly takes that into account and tries to give the ability to make some adjustments. Although clearly they aren't enough for some people, because it's an issue that gets raised again and again. :smallbiggrin:

[bid]

Um, no? If the players want to rest after every encounter, then either
A) The encounters are so difficult they feel like they need to rest and recover resources, or
B) They don't enjoy having to conserve resources.
Um yes.
C) They are used to antagonistic DMs that just wait for them to use half their resources before giving them a TPK encounter.

You have to wean them from the 5-minutes-day encounters. Otherwise non-casters will have no impact.

[Xetheral]

Why? It's always been a game about resource attrition. Well ... historically it was also a game about not getting in over your head as well.

Having played since 2nd edition, that doesn't line up with my experience: I've never been at a table where D&D was about resource attrition. I find that my players have more fun when resource attrition is used in moderation, just like every other single game element.

[Tanarii]

Having played since 2nd edition, that doesn't line up with my experience: I've never been at a table where D&D was about resource attrition. I find that my players have more fun when resource attrition is used in moderation, just like every other single game element.
Interesting. Because if you played a game of D&D with vancian spellcasters and hit points in it, it was about resource attrition. You might have been focusing on other things, but that's what the game ultimately (and purposefully) revolves around, unless you intentionally remove them somehow. Unsurprising, given the war-game roots.

[Pex]

I hate the fact that in 5e all HP can be recovered just by sleeping, so I houseruled it like this:

In a long rest, characters can spend Hit Dice as normal. But unlike the short rest, they regain all expended dice usage at the end of that rest. If they want to take another long rest right after that, to a total of 16 hours, they can, but this time without recovering spell slots.

It's a facilitator. It avoids pigeonholing someone into healbot, and for some (many?) players it's not fun to "waste" resources just to heal to full. The bad guys are always at full hit points. Why can't the PCs?

[Sigreid]

Another way of looking at this is it's an excellent time for the short rest party members to shine.

[Xetheral]

Interesting. Because if you played a game of D&D with vancian spellcasters and hit points in it, it was about resource attrition. You might have been focusing on other things, but that's what the game ultimately (and purposefully) revolves around, unless you intentionally remove them somehow. Unsurprising, given the war-game roots.

(Emphasis added.) Given that your claim is so far from my personal experience, I can't accept it just on your assertion that it follows necessarily from the inclusion of HP and vancian casting.

[RickAllison]

(Emphasis added.) Given that your claim is so far from my personal experience, I can't accept it just on your assertion that it follows necessarily from the inclusion of HP and vancian casting.

I just have experience with 5e, but:

Fighters: Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight are differentiated by their resources, and Banneret features revolve around the core Fighter consumable resources (Second Wind, Action Surge, Indomitable). Champion is the exception on not basing features around resources.

Barbarian: Rage. Core feature and is a resource to be managed. Reckless Attack effectively trades hp for more damage.

Bard: focuses on distribution of spell slots and Bardic Inspiration, more resources.

Cleric: spellcasting and Channel Divinity, and Divine Intervention.

Druid: spell slots and Wild Shapes. Note that one of the reasons why Moon is so powerful at level 20 is because it removes the resource attrition of Wild Shape.

Monks: ki.

Paladin: Lay on Hands, spells, Channel Divinity.

Ranger: spells, but otherwise now dependent on resources.

Rogues: other than the capstone and Arcane Trickster, not resource-dependent.

Sorcerer: slots and sorcery points.

Warlocks: Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum. One of the defining features of the class is how the resource-dependence is different than other casters. More non-expendable options as well.

Wizard: spell slots.

So the classes that don't have a reliance on consumable resources (and so are divorced from resource attrition) are the Champion Fighter, non-Arcane Trickster Rogues, and the better part of Rangers. The vast majority of it does revolve around the conservation and consumption of limited resources.

[Malifice]

(Emphasis added.) Given that your claim is so far from my personal experience, I can't accept it just on your assertion that it follows necessarily from the inclusion of HP and vancian casting.

It self evidently does.

A caster without slots is no longer a caster. A creature without hit points is dead.

DnD combat is exclusively about hit point attrition (at its core). First to 0 loses. Its a reasonably predictable rate of loss as well. Just because you've never noticed this core of the game, doesnt mean its not happeneing (unless youre playing a very different game with totally different rules).

The core of the game is resource management. Its why the 5 minute adventuring day is a thing. Players will naturally follow the DMs meta - if he allows the 5 minute AD, expect nova strikes. If he pushes longer ADs on the party, they'll conserve resources (hit points, hit dice, spell slots, rages, action surge, sup dice, wild shapes, channells, potions, charges, scrolls, wild shapes etc).

The default pacing in 5E is the 6-8 medium to hard encounters per long rest with around 2 short rests taken during that period, with around one per 2 encounters. Long rest resources are expected to be expended after 6-8 encounters, requiring another long rest. I personally aim for around 6 encounters (leaving my casters with enough juice in case of an encounter at night).

Thats not set in stone for every adventuring day. Its a guideline that the devs work around and the balance point for the classes and encounter guidelines. Some days will be much shorter; some will be longer. Some days will feature more short rests, some days will feature less. Some days the encounters will be harder, some days they'll be easier.

Making players consider resource management (thinking before they drop that high level slot, or holding back on ability usage to keep it in reserve) enhances your game and stops it becoming a rather boring version of rocket tag. It showcases unique abilities (rage, action surge, spells) and makes reaching for the button to use one of these abilities a meaningful player choice.

[Wymmerdann]

Well said.

Rather than strict "penetrate the dungeon before the cultists complete the summoning ritual" quests [which are honestly more dramatic when they fail than when they succeed], you could try for "softer" encouragement.

There's a Spell-Tinker travelling through the region that is likely to stop off in town while the adventurers are on quest. If they're quick about it, they'll have the chance to examine his wares.

Perishable Loot that might start to go bad after a few days without proper [town] storage.

Enchantments that allow entry into hostile environments [the Shadowfell, the Arctic, Detroit] that last for a few days, and wear off gradually. The party can take longer, but they might start facing minor penalties.

[Malifice]

Well said.

Rather than strict "penetrate the dungeon before the cultists complete the summoning ritual" quests [which are honestly more dramatic when they fail than when they succeed], you could try for "softer" encouragement.

There's a Spell-Tinker travelling through the region that is likely to stop off in town while the adventurers are on quest. If they're quick about it, they'll have the chance to examine his wares.

Perishable Loot that might start to go bad after a few days without proper [town] storage.

Enchantments that allow entry into hostile environments [the Shadowfell, the Arctic, Detroit] that last for a few days, and wear off gradually. The party can take longer, but they might start facing minor penalties.

All great ideas.

Also: A mysterious dungeon teleports around the realm, disspearing and reapearing every few days. Its now just outside of town. Can the PCs get in, plunder as much as possible and get out before it teleports away?

Or: Your employer really wants the Macguffin before the gala ball in 2 days time. If you can recover it before then, he offers to triple your pay.

Or similar.

[Xetheral]

It self evidently does.

A caster without slots is no longer a caster. A creature without hit points is dead.

DnD combat is exclusively about hit point attrition (at its core). First to 0 loses. Its a reasonably predictable rate of loss as well. Just because you've never noticed this core of the game, doesnt mean its not happeneing (unless youre playing a very different game with totally different rules).

The core of the game is resource management. Its why the 5 minute adventuring day is a thing. Players will naturally follow the DMs meta - if he allows the 5 minute AD, expect nova strikes. If he pushes longer ADs on the party, they'll conserve resources (hit points, hit dice, spell slots, rages, action surge, sup dice, wild shapes, channells, potions, charges, scrolls, wild shapes etc).

I disagree entirely, particularly with the part about D&D being self evidently about resource management. From my perspective, the core of D&D is playing your character and having fun doing it. There are many ways to play a character and many ways to have fun doing so, but, collectively, they're what the game is about.

The mechanics happen to include an element of resource management, just as they happen to include many other elements, such as combat. Inclusion of an element, however, does not make that element the core of the game, or else the game would have a multiplicity of cores. Resource management isn't the core of D&D any more than combat is--arguably, resource management is less of a core feature than combat is.

I further disagree that combat in D&D is exclusively about hit point loss. Combat, at it's core, is about achieving your character's objectives or preventing your opponent from accomplishing theirs. HP depletion is the usual method, but there are plenty of combats that don't hinge on being the first side to reduce the other side to zero hp. Ergo, a race to 0 HP is a primary feature of D&D combat, but it cannot be the core of D&D combat since it represents only a subset of those combats.

The 5-minute workday is a thing because resource management is an element of D&D, not because resource management is the core. Furthermore, the 5-minute workday, while a commonly reported problem, isn't an universal one. I've never had a problem with it at my table, even when running 3.5 and before I'd even heard of the concept. For whatever reason, the combination of me and my players simply never ran into it.


Making players consider resource management (thinking before they drop that high level slot, or holding back on ability usage to keep it in reserve) enhances your game and stops it becoming a rather boring version of rocket tag. It showcases unique abilities (rage, action surge, spells) and makes reaching for the button to use one of these abilities a meaningful player choice.

Resource management can be a fun-enhancing part of the game without being its core.

[Tanarii]

I disagree entirely, particularly with the part about D&D being self evidently about resource management. From my perspective, the core of D&D is playing your character and having fun doing it.Thats not mutually exclusive.


There are many ways to play a character and many ways to have fun doing so, but, collectively, they're what the game is about.But because of the way the game is structured, which is a result of it stemming from wargaming and not (for example) narrative cooperative storytelling, Dungeons and Dragons also involves a level of resource management. It always has, and it still does.


The mechanics happen to include an element of resource management, just as they happen to include many other elements, such as combat. Which involves the most resource management of any part of the game. Again, due to the roots of the game.

[Xetheral]

Thats not mutually exclusive.

But because of the way the game is structured, which is a result of it stemming from wargaming and not (for example) narrative cooperative storytelling, Dungeons and Dragons also involves a level of resource management. It always has, and it still does.

Which involves the most resource management of any part of the game. Again, due to the roots of the game.

(Emphasis added.) I agree entirely with the bolded sentence, but "involv a level of resource management" is a far cry from claiming that resource management is "what the game ultimately (and purposefully) revolves around".

And yes, I consider the claim that the core of D&D is resource management to be mutually exclusive with the claim that the core of D&D is playing a character and having fun. Unless Malifice and I are using the word "core" [I]very differently, the core of the game is going to be a singular concept. (There may be room for multiple levels of generality on the same concept, but when I refer to something as the "core" of something else, the notion implies exclusivity.)

[Malifice]

(Emphasis added.) I agree entirely with the bolded sentence, but "involv a level of resource management" is a far cry from claiming that resource management is "what the game ultimately (and purposefully) revolves around".

It does though. On a mechancial level.

You can disagree all you want, but you're objectively wrong.

When your caster drops his highest level slot, he's expending a resource (and an important one at that). A critical hit that depletes your fighters hit points by 50 percent is depleting an even more important resource. When he responds with using his action surge and expending a few superiority dice, he's expending a resource. When he is killed and your parties cleric uses up a 500gp diamond and casts raise dead, he's expending two more resources.


And yes, I consider the claim that the core of D&D is resource management to be mutually exclusive with the claim that the core of D&D is playing a character and having fun. Unless Malifice and I are using the word "core" [I]very differently, the core of the game is going to be a singular concept. (There may be room for multiple levels of generality on the same concept, but when I refer to something as the "core" of something else, the notion implies exclusivity.)

The mechanical core of the game. The game itself.

Note that not all RPGs are resource management heavy as DnD. Most use it to an element though. You (on a gamist level) as a player are managing your resources between replenishment. Some games (ones that dont have depletable wounds or hit points) and instead use a critical hit probability style of determining when you die/ are dropped, or use a SR1 style probability style fatigue system of spellcasting (where you can cast all day long as long as you continue to roll well on spellcasting fatigue) are systems that are less resource management and more probability style game mechanics.

You wont see the 5 minute adventuring day in games like shadowrun for example (unless the probabilities are against you and your soak/ fatigue rolls suck). In games like DnD, its very much a thing.

And I almost cant believe that youve played 3.5 at any level and not experienced the 5 minute adventuring day of nova strikes and casters dumping their highest level spells and entering combats pre-buffed with all their lower level spells, nuking an encounter and falling back. Not all players attempt to game the resource management system of 5E (well, not intentionally anyway) though I guess.

[Dimcair]

The thing was...we got really beat up early in the dungeon but couldnt leave....so we had to wait like 20 hours in one room of a dungeon to rest.



I will tell you the magic words now: "later that day"]

Problem solved.
Also, while recovering spell slots is one thing, what prevents you from using the time to lick your wounds.

[Xetheral]

It does though. On a mechancial level.

You can disagree all you want, but you're objectively wrong.

An opinion about what lies at the core of Dungeons and Dragons is inherently subjective--one can't be objectively wrong.

On a holistic level, I disagree: playing a character and having fun are much more central to what D&D is about that any of its individual mechanics.

On a purely mechanical level, I still disagree: I'd argue that the core mechanic of D&D is the class and leveling system.


When your caster drops his highest level slot, he's expending a resource (and an important one at that). A critical hit that depletes your fighters hit points by 50 percent is depleting an even more important resource. When he responds with using his action surge and expending a few superiority dice, he's expending a resource. When he is killed and your parties cleric uses up a 500gp diamond and casts raise dead, he's expending two more resources.

I agree that resource management is a part of dungeons and dragons, so I don't know what you're trying to prove. I'm merely arguing that expending resources isn't the core part of the game.


The mechanical core of the game. The game itself.

Monopoly isn't about rolling the dice to see how far your piece moves--it's about acquiring and improving real estate. Risk isn't about the combat mechanics, it's about conquering the world with your armies. D&D isn't about rationing spells and tracking HP, it's about playing a character in a fantasy world. Games are rarely about their "mechanical core".

We clearly both feel strongly about this, and are unlikely to persuade the other, so unless you have a specific question for me I'm going to drop the topic.


And I almost cant believe that youve played 3.5 at any level and not experienced the 5 minute adventuring day of nova strikes and casters dumping their highest level spells and entering combats pre-buffed with all their lower level spells, nuking an encounter and falling back. Not all players attempt to game the resource management system of 5E (well, not intentionally anyway) though I guess.

I've played and run third edition extensively, from the weekend 3.0 came out until last year. I've played and run it at every level from 1st to mid 20's. Resting has almost always been done at night, and usually with half or more of the party's resources remaining. The closest I've seen to a five-minute workday is the party electing to wait a full day so that a spellcaster can swap out a memorization for a niche spell that they have some brilliant idea on how to use for a specific purpose. Even that happened only once or twice total. I have seen major battles (both DM-inflicted and player-chosen) where the PCs threw everything they had at the opposition, but that was because the party had no other option that could plausibly lead to victory, not because they were gaming the resource mechanics.

Having read about the problem I fully understand why it occurs at some tables, and how the design of the system in many ways encourages it. But however unusual my tables may have been, that we haven't had the problem shows at the very least that it was not universal.

[Tanarii]

And yes, I consider the claim that the core of D&D is resource management to be mutually exclusive with the claim that the core of D&D is playing a character and having fun.
I suppose you also consider role playing and optimization to be mutually exclusive? Because that's how nonsense your statement is. You're trying to pull off a Stormwind fallacy.

[Xetheral]

I suppose you also consider role playing and optimization to be mutually exclusive?

Not in the least! I love them both, and don't consider them mutually exclusive at all.

I just don't see how a game (or anything, for that matter) can have two "cores".

[MightyDog16]

My policy as a DM when the party tries to long rest is to ask myself if it makes logical sense for the party to stay in one spot for 8 hours. Are there enemies nearby? What kind of shelter do they have? About how long has it been since they finished their last long rest? I try to keep it around 12 to 16 hours. If they insist and try to abuse the long rest then simply disrupt the rest! Come up with something that keeps them up, eventually they'll learn that it might be better to keep moving. Hopefully this will promote creativity and resource management.

[RickAllison]

I think a big hing that is getting lost here is the difference between a game and a system. The game is what goes on at the table while the system is what is in the books. The game can be focused on whatever you like (usually roleplay, but some do the Combat as War and do dungeons for the fun of the mechanics and I'm sure there are other styles), but the system remains constant.

This system has the core of resource management. The game has the core of whatever the group decided to play. I can take a game that I am playing on D&D and port it to other systems. The game that I am playing (what Xethereal is describing) is wholly independent of the system. So there you go, Xethereal, the difference is that you are talking about the core of RPGs in general, while others are discussing the core of D&D.

[bid]

From my perspective, the core of D&D is playing your character and having fun doing it.
That's true for all RPG, but the devil's in the details.

So, how does D&D differs from other RPG?

At the core, D&D is a gamist system. It is far from Amber or Leverage, where you can weave flashbacks to change the narrative elements. It is not a system where the population at large matters (except for the Birthright campaign setting)

What makes a gamist system? Resources to spend.

You need suffering, you need weaknesses. How will you simulate that if not by being short on resources?

[Grod_The_Giant]

What makes a gamist system? Resources to spend.
Not at all. Look at, oh, Mutants and Masterminds. That's certainly a gamist system, but has no resource management whatsoever, beyond a little metagame currency business. Resource management is one potential aspect of a system, but by no means the only one.

[Knaight]

Edit: It's a historical problem for D&D. Because daily resources / vancian casting. It's also one which 4e and 5e have actually tried to address. This edition does a pretty good job of laying out how it works, emphasizing a style that works for Dungeon Delving, which is the bread and butter of D&D. And it provides alternatives for to try and make it work for other styles of play.

Which is far better than the oldest editions, which gave you nothing as a DM to use as a effective baseline. Unless you went with the very oldest assumption ... that one "day" is one session in the dungeon, after which you return to base.

Also, calling Dungeon Delving a "specific niche" betrays your bias. Dungeon Delving (or adventures that work in a similar way) is what the entirety of D&D is designed to resolve around.
My bias is that of looking at RPGs as a whole, and in that context, it's a specific niche. Is it the specific niche D&D has been designed for from pretty much day one? Absolutely. It's still a specific niche.


IYou wont see the 5 minute adventuring day in games like shadowrun for example (unless the probabilities are against you and your soak/ fatigue rolls suck). In games like DnD, its very much a thing.

This is mostly because the assumptions of Shadowrun make chipping away at things a very, very bad idea. You're up against the megacorporations, and while their security at a given spot might be weak enough to get in, do your thing, and get out they all have ridiculous amounts of resources in reserve, and they will beef up security immediately following an attack. Plus, while for D&D "reserve" can easily mean something like "contact those armies with a message that gets there in two weeks and give them a month to get here", in Shadowrun it tends to mean "You have ten minutes before a half dozen vehicles full of corporate commandos show up if you get noticed, have fun".

[Tanarii]

My bias is that of looking at RPGs as a whole, and in that context, it's a specific niche. Is it the specific niche D&D has been designed for from pretty much day one? Absolutely. It's still a specific niche.Fair point. But many other games are also resource driven too. For example, almost all Palladium Games (all Robotech, Rifts, and most of their mutant games) assume the players are typically short on actual resources, just not internal character abilities. Battletech and Shadowrun typically assume some kind of mission or campaign limited resources, although sometimes you've got a huge logistical support machine standing behind you. GURPS usually mixes and matches both internal resources and external ones.

Resource management is a very common feature in RPGs.